SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What bothers me about the 'good future if you put the A behind you' idea is that your WGF got angry at you(?) and cheated, and she's bound to get angry at you again. If she still thinks that's justification for cheating, she's likely cheat again. And if she has rewritten your M history and given herself permission to cheat, I don't see how you can reach a satisfying level of intimacy.

I can’t argue with any of this, it is essentially what I was trying to say

your WGF seems to blame you for her A. In doing so, she's lying to you and to herself. That's not a strong basis for a relationship.

Well one of us is lying to ourselves, I can see from both perspectives why either of us would want to do that, because the alternative is very painful.

My reaction is based on what you've shared here, and I know that's only a small part of the story, so the real prospects for a good life with her could be higher than they seem to me based on my understanding of your posts.

I share as much as I can in order to paint the picture on a particular topic where I am stuck but of course there is always more. I don’t typically come to SI and post a “hey WGF did a good thing” thread but those things do happen, frequently. I can’t emphasise enough that if the marriage 2.0 that we have today came without the trauma of infidelity then I would consider myself the luckiest guy alive, it would be difficult under the circumstances for me to get that across on a forum such as this but I generally do believe we have the “ingredients” to make it, what we don’t have is the knowledge, skill, experience to turn those ingredients into the dish they can become and it feels like she wants to eat the pudding before the main.

BTW, I have a hard time understanding how your W is getting paid twice what she can make elsewhere in your area. Businesses generally are pretty aware of the prevailing cost of labor, and even the top performers don't get paid twice what they can make from other companies.

Sorry if my description was ambiguous. Let’s say that leaving this job comes with a very real risk of having to take a career change. So essentially moving from skilled to unskilled occupation. She is currently paid twice what any of my peers wife’s make and would potentially drop to those salaries if she changed careers.

I had not a fucking clue of who I was or what I wanted. I was depressed, overworked, and my purpose for living felt like it was entirely gone. I resented my husband for expectations I put on myself and saw myself as an indentured servant.

Yeah I think WGF could’ve written this

Look for the desire, does it sincerely seem to be there? The more it's there the more she will try. If you want to see this through, then give her the room to try. Without the pressure of reporting on therapy. If she likes the IC, then she should stay. IC is about fit, this person may not be a good fit for you, but it might be for her. It's hard to trust her to drive this bus, but that's what it needs to be. If she doesn't have the desire/motivation that's what you need to know

.

I believe it is there but misdirected. I do think it is this and not CoD that keeps me hanging there.

I really appreciate all the thoughts and comments today. I think my view point has changed during the course of this discussion and I am thinking about taking myself back to my previous IC and allowing WGF to continue with this one.

That being said

And is her job worth more than your M?

It is not. And, I want to say that if she doesn't see this by now, that's not a good sign of the desire I was just talking about.

I still need a solution I am comfortable with on this point. Without this we keep the wound open, we don’t move forward.

Let me just start by saying I really get where you are coming from and the issues you are running into here. All of the advice from my previous post in this thread still applies.

Let's dissect the information you gave here:

IC says that she had listened to me and agrees with everything I have told her. That my list of requirements is totally reasonable and she is convinced having questioned me from every angle conceivable that these are my needs and without them I will remain stuck.

Ultimately she sees that I need WGF to own this and herein lies the major issue.

Surely many WS's run into roadblocks in accepting and owning their actions and the consequences thereof. It is nothing special and is not about competing truths. It is about self protection. A mode she is STILL in. Did you ever read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda McDonald? Your WW?

I bet if you read it again, you will see almost word for word quotes and precise scenarios showing that she is making a haphazard attempt at R, and that she is running into some already described roadblocks. Revisiting this book was key in having a breakthrough for me.

IC says that my WGFs whys are her truth and that she cannot change that for me. She advised me that WGF still believes the rewriting of the marriage and the only reason WGF is still here is because I became super Twodozen right off the bat on Dday. Actually she recognises that I did this pre A but that due to some long held resentments over minor normal relationship issues that went unspoken that WGF was blind to my efforts until dday. Almost like she needed to “control alt delete” and blow her life up to be able to WTFU and it’s an exact repeat of what her sister, mother, grandmother and mothers paternal aunts all did.

I'm going to do you, your WW, and your IC a favor. The "why" we are interested in here is not about the means, motive, or opportunity. The why we are interested in here is why she didn't maintain her boundaries. It's entirely possible she simply doesn't have them, or that she doesn't even want to establish them. If that is the kind of fundamental difference in moral compass your IC is talking about, you are not going to make progress. You basically won't solve anything.

This is eating the shit sandwich and then some. Essentially saying, "I understand why you decided to cheat, and understand that if the opportunity comes along again, the only thing I can do is accept your reasons again." Reread the "windows and walls" section of "Not Just Friends". Also consider rereading the "when to throw in the towel" section...

She’s told me that WGF does regret what she did and that she loves Twodozen and wants to build a new life with me but that she cannot change her perception of why this happened.

You don't have to change her perception on what MOTIVATED her to seek an A. "I was unhappy" ok. "I wanted to feel young again" fucking great. "You weren't putting enough effort into our relationship" fine. And so, when you weighed your unhappiness, desire to feel young, and resent for me in one hand, and your integrity in the other, why did you allow the integrity to fail?

EDIT TO ADD: The question isn't so much "why did you have the A?" it's "why didn't you tell me about these problems, and if you did, why didn't you continue to elevate them in priority, and if you did, why didn't you just ask for a D?"

As we often point out, there are many ways to respond the the stressors, an A is never appropriate.

She agrees that I need NC, she has never had a case without it that worked, but has advised that because I have been totally honest with WGF (something she doesn’t necessarily think is always a good thing) and never given any guarantees that quitting her job will mean R that WGF has said she cannot take that risk. FYI WGF is in a job that pays far more than she would get anywhere else (like double) so from a pragmatic point of view both IC and myself do understand this.

You should really probe why your IC thinks deceit is better than transparency and honesty. That's extremely worrying to me.

The job is a great thing to change. I'm very happy my WW is finally changing jobs. It is incremental though. This actually goes back to the main point. What has she done to build healthy boundaries so that she avoids having any A again?

I asked about what work she would continue with WGF to ensure that the thoughts processes that allowed her to think that having an A was okay or the answer to her “unhappiness” and iC told me the following

If I split you both down the middle and was able to show you what you look like inside you would see that you are 2 different people, I cannot change that, I cannot make WGF think the way you do. I cannot give her your moral compass, in fact very few people have your moral compass. She has some poor coping skills that we could help her with but we cannot go back in time and change what she did and ultimately you have to decide if you are okay with that.

No we cannot go back in time, but maybe we can identify why she failed to keep her boundaries and what she would do differently if presented with the same circumstances in the future.

She told me that she can clearly see the love that we have for each other and if we was able to put this behind us and focus on the future not the past we have a good chance. But that there will always be an element of distrust and thats something I have to decide if I’m okay with.

See above, the reason we are examining the past is in order to ensure a better future. Rugsweeping doesn't work.

So that’s my update, I called it progress in my intro because the positive side of my brain says “okay, we know where we are” but ultimately I have to decide if I’m okay with this situation.

So where do we go from here

1. Fire this IC? Tbh I’m not sure if I see the point, it’s taken WGF 15 months to get this far and each one I’ve met with has basically taken the only way to stay together is eat the shit sandwich approach.

2. Read between the lines and accept that I need what I need, WGF is unable to give these things and move forward with S even if that isn’t what either of us claim to want.

3. STFU and eat the shit sandwich

1. Maybe. I guess I got really lucky only having to fire one MC. My WW already had IC. My IC is only interested in my wellbeing and continuously encouraged me to speak up for my needs until they were met.

2. Well, until I asked for a D and put my needs in writing, I didn't get them met either (despite many reiterations). I'm not saying ask for a D for leverage. I get. I really really do. You might find you see no path forward and ask for a D, only to finally see you WW understands the damage she has done and that your needs aren't wants.

3. I believe that STFU and stick with the program as presented is just more suffering that will eventually motivate 1 or 2. Self-imposed limbo. "WhY aReN't YoU oVeR iT, aLrEaDy?"

To finish I will quote my previous post the reasons why I am still here, because to me they are still true

What’s in this for you? Why stay?

The usual, I love my WGF

I'm gonna stop you right there. Read my sig. Absorb the message.

, we have kids, shared dreams, we are very compatible, we are (and please don’t shoot me) best friends. We have a very comfortable life together, like the same things, enjoy each other’s company more than anyone else’s. We are in our mid forties and on target to be able to retire in our mid 50s if we desire. That will all change if we don’t fight our way through this.

I actually think these are good reasons. They are many of the same reasons I wanted R so much and thought it was worth the fight.

As I sit here today my brain is telling me that even if I don’t take option 2 today, resentment will build and I will, or she will at some point decide to take that option. That options 1 or option 3 are just kicking the can down the road. I have known this for a long time, I don’t like it, I have tried to change it but ultimately I cannot change it on my own. Not even super Twodozen can do that.

I largely agree with this assessment.

I welcome any thoughts and advice because in previous posts some members have been able to dissect the information and present it differently to how I had initially perceived it.

I am and have been for a while ready to move on, I’ts never been my goal but I’ve prepared myself as best as possible for that outcome. I feel I may be moving to the D/S forum soon, that this was maybe always the way this was going to go. But if that is the case I will be able to hold my head up high, know in my heart that i gave it everything I have.

Let me end this detailed analysis with something a little simpler. You will only be able to do what you feel is right when you feel it is right. I was resigned to boulder pushing for some time. Eternity? Maybe you have it in you. I did not.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:34 AM, March 10th (Wednesday)]

Surely many WS's run into roadblocks in accepting and owning their actions and the consequences thereof. It is nothing special and is not about competing truths. It is about self protection. A mode she is STILL in. Did you ever read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda McDonald? Your WW?

Yes and yes. About 5 months post Dday. Her review at the time “it’s a bit one sided”

You should really probe why your IC thinks deceit is better than transparency and honesty. That's extremely worrying to me.

I wouldn’t say she condones it just finds honesty such as mine extremely rare, I would like to say she finds it refreshing but she doesn’t give me that opinion I’m afraid.

Let me end this detailed analysis with something a little simpler. You will only be able to do what you feel is right when you feel it is right. I was resigned to boulder pushing for some time. Eternity? Maybe you have it in you. I did not.

I think I’ve alluded to it but it was actually and has actually only ever be me saying “I’m done” that moves us forward. We have split up or Let’s say negotiated our way out of R no less than 4 times in the last 3 weeks. On every single occasion we have sought comfort for our predicament from each other. Not once have either of turned to anyone other than each other for support during those times. We are currently in agreed “limbo” whilst we see what can be done about the NC issue. I have had to remind WGF at least 3 times this week we are in limbo 🙄

Let me refresh you on the most salient passage in my experience (options for the WS: 1 and 2 are leave, 3 is to not try, 5 is a heart-felt and well-advised effort):

4. Make a bungled, haphazard effort to save the marriage.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by her unfaithful behavior. In her efforts to calm the hurting partner, the betrayer often says things like, "You should be over this by now" or, "I said I was sorry!" or "What else do you want me to do? I can't take it back." The rely-on-my-own judgement approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn our blood-letting of the marriage until it dies. I call this the "Detain and Torture Option."

Another short bit:

Smart Rebuilders NEVER say:

"You should be over this by now!"

"Why can't you move on?"

"Oh, brother! That again?"

"Why do you keep browbeating me with this?"

"What's your problem? I said I was sorry!"

"It's over. Why can't you accept that?"

"Don't you think you're overreacting?"

"Well, you did _____ to me."

"Why can't you just forgive and forget?"

"You're just bitter and vindictive."

"Well, you've hurt me too!"

I have been careful not to share my "needs list" too much because they are MY needs, and I don't want to defend them. But as it relates to understanding, giving me reassurance, and not being defensive (which were my main problems):

Re-establish fidelity-related trust through a commitment by WS to lead repair efforts from the affair:

- Stop avoiding reading or learning how to help (don't know if this applies to your WGF)

- Stop making me feel bad for trying to understand my feelings and work through them, my negative feelings are completely valid and justified

- Have patience and understanding. I will sometimes need continued reassurances; this is normal and not an attack on you.

- Stop comparing our repair to others who happen to “have it worse than me”. I don’t care if they are more resilient than me. I don’t care if they have forgiven more or worse transgressions than me. I don’t care how they are working through their problems. That’s their stuff, their marriage, and their decision.

Feel free to fill in the "stops" with whatever you need her to stop doing.

I still need a solution I am comfortable with on this point. Without this we keep the wound open, we don’t move forward.

You are 100 percent correct. I do not think anyone can move forward if the AP is in the picture even if it's working in separate locations in the same building. The AP has to be taken out of the picture entirely. I agree with you.

I think that she believes in time her efforts outside of my requirements will mean that my requirements will evolve or diminish

This is what I (without knowing her, of course) think she thinks.

The trouble is, as her IC has told you herself, Mrs. Twodozen thinks what she thinks and believes what she believes and can’t change it—legitimately; not just as lip service to appease you—so either way one of you is going to spend that potential 40 years putting on a front and acting against what you truly feel.

I suppose the question is, will it be you or her?

Thanks again everyone for all you comments. They are really helping....

@Tif

Let me refresh you on the most salient passage in my experience (options for the WS: 1 and 2 are leave, 3 is to not try, 5 is a heart-felt and well-advised effort):

4. Make a bungled, haphazard effort to save the marriage.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by her unfaithful behavior. In her efforts to calm the hurting partner, the betrayer often says things like, "You should be over this by now" or, "I said I was sorry!" or "What else do you want me to do? I can't take it back." The rely-on-my-own judgement approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn our blood-letting of the marriage until it dies. I call this the "Detain and Torture Option."

Yup that’s a fairly accurate description

You don't have to change her perception on what MOTIVATED her to seek an A. "I was unhappy" ok. "I wanted to feel young again" fucking great. "You weren't putting enough effort into our relationship" fine. And so, when you weighed your unhappiness, desire to feel young, and resent for me in one hand, and your integrity in the other, why did you allow the integrity to fail?

EDIT TO ADD: The question isn't so much "why did you have the A?" it's "why didn't you tell me about these problems, and if you did, why didn't you continue to elevate them in priority, and if you did, why didn't you just ask for a D?"

This is the question I have been asking. The only answer I get is “if I could turn back the clock I would, but I can’t”

She oscillates on a weekly basis between I tried l to tell you I’m sorry that I never told you or anyone (except AP) how I was feeling. So we can’t even maintain consistency. The fact she has at least copped 50% of the time for never saying anything is a start but it shows me clearly that when the heat is on she retreats right back to defensiveness and blame shifting by reintroducing that she has indeed told me she was unhappy (which she never did) my response the moment I found out (the ILYBNILWY speech) would show any sane person that had I of known I would have stepped up my game.

But as it relates to understanding, giving me reassurance, and not being defensive (which were my main problems):

Understanding well we’re not there yet, reassurance well I get this in bucket loads much more than any other BS I read about in SI, defensiveness well I guess this is the crux of the matter isn’t it and what most of this thread is about

- Stop avoiding reading or learning how to help (don't know if this applies to your WGF)

It took almost a month to finish HTHYSH see previous post for her review.

I stopped being marriage police a long time ago because it was literally killing me wondering what I might read in her phone so I stopped. Anyway about 2 months ago we changed phones, she gave me her old one without compliant, didn’t flinch. I transferred everything, put the old one in a locker and left it there. About 2 weeks later curiosity got the better of me so I fired up the old phone and looked through everything. No red flags whatsoever, no indication anything had been deleted but some “amber” flags for me. When I looked through her search history which hasn’t been cleared there was not one, not a single search for anything infidelity related. There was tons of searches for romantic card for my husband, romantic gift for my husband but not one search for how to make him feel better. The rest of the search history was just someone getting in with life, you know wallpaper colours and so on. Btw I’m not proud of what i did, that’s not who I was pre A and certainly not who I want to be going forwards, I guess I’ll just put it down to trust but verify.

@Darkness

The trouble is, as her IC has told you herself, Mrs. Twodozen thinks what she thinks and believes what she believes and can’t change it—legitimately; not just as lip service to appease you—so either way one of you is going to spend that potential 40 years putting on a front and acting against what you truly feel.

I suppose the question is, will it be you or her?

And this is the realisation I am slowly coming to. Now I don’t believe for a moment that she isn’t an inherently decent person, broken maybe but inside I think she is good but her stubbornness and or defensiveness is blocking our path.

Now I wouldnt expect in a million years she would show up at a site like this. See info above re search history. But if she did and she recanted the story I have given (and I think I’ve portrayed her perspective fairly accurately) what would you say to her?

As I see it today

Whether I like it or not (I don’t) WGF fell out of love with Twodozen some time ago. Life wasn’t hard in fact is was mostly good, we have healthy happy kids, a nice house, good jobs, 2 to 3 holidays every year, we were still best friends, make each other laugh all the time and enjoyed each other company. What we didn’t do was date, express affection, and quite importantly I was comfortable with this (maybe I assumed it was normal) and as we now know she wasn’t. I think she would say I was “a good man”

What happened happened and I can’t comment on why because that is the main question I have but folllowing dday

We met a MC 2 days post Dday and this lady advised WGF when I was out of the room that she had “checked out”

Roughly 3 months later following an epic pick me dance WGF fell madly and deeply back in love with Twodozen.

Roughly 3 months after that I hit my WTF stage, reality hits and I need answers, I stop dancing but I don’t stop being a nice guy, still havnt stopped. I was always nice.

6 months later and here we are with a new IC confirming to WGF yeah you checked out.

Ive swallowed that pill, it sucks, being a stand up guy wasn’t enough, she needed kibbles and I wasn’t giving them to her. I’m a douche, I was asleep at the wheel.

So we’ve established the backdrop, I’m on board with it, I’ve told her as much. What I want to know is why she didn’t have the strength, courage, bravery to make healthy choices, sure I wouldn’t have liked those either but as we’ve established there is a very good chance I would’ve stepped up if I had known how she felt.

But what we have is 1 IC saying you’ve checked out, follow your heart (true story) me doing an epic dance validating for her that I somehow accepted responsibility for what she did, then a new IC saying yeah I can see why you felt like that, let’s focus on the rosy future.

So I seek support on a site where It’s repeated over and over again that “it’s not my fault and I could not have done anything to stop it” although my backdrop above would indicate that both she and Maybe I still feel differently.

And I don’t seem to be able to find the words to explain to WGF that yeah I get that she was unhappy but that doesn’t make me responsible for the A and I cannot and will not accept that. That is a recipe for a miserable life. And I know that the alternative is that you need to take that on your shoulders and I will be swapping my pain for yours but that’s how this works. That is how we get through this.

Without this step and the subsequent ones that follow, which we can’t know till this step is done, we don’t move forward, we do not get to have our pudding before the starters and the main.

Sorry for the long post but I got a lot of good responses yesterday and I think that those responses deserve an equally comprehensive reply from me.

My needs are still very simply

1.Close this wound (NC)

2.Why or How

3.Deal with 2

4.Honesty

Maybe my 4th requirement is causing problems with my 2nd because she believes she is telling me the truth ???

Anyway thanks again.

But if she did and she recanted the story I have given (and I think I’ve portrayed her perspective fairly accurately) what would you say to her?

It would of course depend on exactly what she said, but first and foremost I would say that “regardless of what Twodozen did or didn’t do, having an affair was not the way to handle your issues.” And, “Twodozen is NOT ‘why’ you cheated.”

I think that’s one of the biggest stumbling blocks for WSs who feel they had legitimate grievances in their marriage—they approach the whole thing from what they (erroneously) feel is a logical analysis—“if not A, then not B.” If BS hadn’t been/done/said ___, then I wouldn’t have ‘had to’ go elsewhere.” That is wrong. One NEVER ‘has to’ go elsewhere while still remaining in the original relationship to retain the “good parts” of it (cake eating).

I’ve been on SI for 11 years. I’ve seen countless threads where the WS was unhappy (so they cheated but still expect their comfortable marriage waiting for them), and/or the BS is unhappy (post D-day) but they stay and expect the WS to just magically “get it.” In 11 years I’ve yet to see a scenario where any of that works out. Both partners have to know that nothing will work until the other person truly feels it’s best to change. I’ve come to the conclusion that there are only three possible outcomes:

- a new relationship is built and is satisfactory for both partners

- divorce happens when there can be no satisfactory reconciliation

- both parties stay and suck it up for whatever reason (kids, finances, codependency) but are miserable

I’ve never seen it actually work when one partner (either WS or BS) has to bully the other to seeing it from their perspective. Divorce sucks and is unfortunate but the WS doesn’t get to say “I’ll keep you hanging on a string while I cheat with whoever because I’m too scared or dependent to dump you.” It’s not a valid way to handle marital issues.

That’s what I’d tell her.

@darkness, thank again. Appreciate your candid response. I’m not enamoured by the word “satisfactory” and I hope that for many it is truly better than that but I get your point.

Thanks again.

Whether I like it or not (I don’t) WGF fell out of love with Twodozen some time ago. Life wasn’t hard in fact is was mostly good, we have healthy happy kids, a nice house, good jobs, 2 to 3 holidays every year, we were still best friends, make each other laugh all the time and enjoyed each other company. What we didn’t do was date, express affection, and quite importantly I was comfortable with this (maybe I assumed it was normal) and as we now know she wasn’t. I think she would say I was “a good man”

What you are describing is any marriage or long term commitment. The "feeling in love" is not possible all the time. Life is long, we each on an individual journey regardless if our cart is hitched to someone else's. For decades I understood that when we were in a valley that I needed to give him some special attention and that always in turn would remind him and we would have another peak period.

Unfortunately that's about as good as I had. When it didn't work that last year before the affair, then I should have started talking to him more blatantly about it. It was hard for me because I felt like if he loved me and I inspired those feelings in him that he would have.

That's not at all true. So, in essence, I did nothing further to get my needs met. I made sweeping assumptions, I blamed him for far more than his share, and I made a willful decision to have an affair. THAT IS ALL ON ME. Those were all my issues, those were my decisions, my blindspots, and my fault.

Ive swallowed that pill, it sucks, being a stand up guy wasn’t enough, she needed kibbles and I wasn’t giving them to her. I’m a douche, I was asleep at the wheel.

This is not your deficit. If she had a good relationship with herself, if she wasn't asleep at the wheel herself, not everything would have hinged on this.

She was taking you for granted. All the good stuff was probably 90% of your marriage. It was her that could only stare at the 10% that could have been better. I know this because I did all this.

Should we all strive to be more present in our relationships? YES! But, do we deserve to be cheated on if we aren't always completely? NO! This is life, we are all dealing with our own individual stuff, work pressures, kids, having a home, our aging (or dying) parents. The bandwidth is not ever going to be 100 percent when it comes to relationships.

You are still taking accountability for her affair. You need to work on that. I do the same thing when it comes to my husband's affair. You did nothing wrong to her, even if you were not always meeting every need. NOONE meets another person's every need. That's why it's our own responsibility to tend to ourselves, manage our own needs.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:52 AM, March 11th (Thursday)]

@hiking thank you. Every word you wrote is how I see it. I think there are many similarities (until dday) between your story and my WGF and I am really trying not to “project” but your words so closely match what I see. Unfortunately Dday is where I see the similarities stop, good for your BS but not good for me.

I guess when it comes to taking any responsibility I do not think I caused it but do think I could’ve avoided it. I know this is not a great way to think and in reality how long could I have avoided it for? But anyway taking your point that I need to change my mindset, and my current IC isn’t driving me in that direction (she was primarily my own IC till last week) she is much more of the,”try not to think about it” mindset, put it in the past and focus on the future rather than reframing. I think I may need to change again, maybe go back to my prior IC??

What this new one did do for me is to get me to really air my concerns with WGF, tell her what I need.

I think in hindsight (and yes I was warned) that having us both see the same person isn’t a recipe for allowing the 2 of us to really get any value from our individual session because we will always be thinking the IC is in the other corner. It’s just natural I guess. Lesson learned.

Unfortunately Dday is where I see the similarities stop, good for your BS but not good for me

It's because you were not on the site the first year I was here. My husband asked me for a divorce in month 10. Around a year marker in, he agreed to hold off on it, prompted by my begging. I was starting to get it at the year marker, but not where I should have been. I actually think that in months 12-18 I started to get quite a bit better and understood a lot more. He was so unhappy he used that to fuel his own affair when we were 17 or 18 months in or so.

Keep in mind that the affair broke off 2 months before my dday. So, add that time to the amount of time it took me to get my head out of my ass.

I am not saying she will follow the same path of working on herself really hard, but if we are comparing stories I wanted you to have a more full picture of where I really have been.

I was aware of most of that. I guess my point is you took yourself to IC, you registered an account on SI because at some level you knew that you needed help, you may have blamed the M but you knew enough to feel that was somehow warped thinking.

We are now 15 months in and havnt even started that journey, if we follow the same path from here that you took my WGF will continue with IC from here on in and around Xmas 2021 I’m going to ask for a divorce and only then will she pull her head out of her arse

Personally, even if I was that patient I don’t believe WGF will keep weekly / monthly sessions with the IC for that long, I mean if the IC is validating what she says then what would be the point, and I really don’t think she is the sort of person that would say “hey, this IC is going really easy on me, maybe I should find another that will really push me”

I on the other hand changed IC because my previous one didn’t challenge me enough. It was starting to feel like a chinwag with my best buddy.

And through this whole year WGF was happy for me to go to IC to fix myself after the trauma that I did not cause, because??

I don’t know exactly why she thought that was okay.....

Edited to add: sorry that sounded a little bit ranty, not my intention just where the words took me. So thank you for helping me let out a little bit of steam 😂

[This message edited by TwoDozen at 11:10 AM, March 11th (Thursday)]

I'm not gonna do the big quote box thing for this reply. I think there are two big things to address.

1) WGF's fuzzy boundaries

It appears there is a big struggle about her boundaries and why they failed.

Let's take a tack that "agrees" with her. We should focus on the present and the future. Tell her you don't trust her now, and don't feel safe now.

If in the future she isn't happy in the relationship, will she tell you? Why? What has changed? Can she explain this to you?

If in the future she finds herself in close contact with someone she is attracted to, can she identify what the boundaries should be. When they are crossed. Will she be open an honest with you if this happens again?

She should have a rather detailed answer to any of these questions.

Maybe go over to the "But My Emotions" thread, where I wrote out an analogy on fire. The upshot is this. She needs to understand why she deceived you (not that she was unhappy, he was there, you weren't, etc.), that it was wrong, and how to be honest in the future.

2) No Contact.

I see this largely similar to the problems I faced with my WW keeping her job. The defense here one way or another is that this is really only about controlling "opportunity". It's true that an A is more likely to die without as much opportunity. If your WW has actually fixed her boundaries though, it is possible to have an appropriate *NON-PERSONAL* relationship with the AP.

There are significant financial reasons for you to follow this higher risk path. Generally speaking though, if you feel safe that she will keep her boundaries in any given future, you ought to also believe she can avoid rekindling an A.

Let's say there is some work related social contact with AP. She should have a detailed plan on how she would deflect any personal conversation.

"How are things with you and your BF?"

"Man, my wife is really busting my balls..."

"Hey remember our good times?"

How will she respond? Will she immediately tell you? What's her default exit plan? What if she is unhappy with you again?

I discussed this sort of stuff in both MC and with my WW for a while. Probing how she would change and keep her boundaries.

This is all "present and future" focused. When you dig in though, the reality is these questions only came up because of the A, and that she allowed her boundaries to come down before.

I understand what you are saying. As gets said on here a lot the worst infidelity to deal with is the one that effects you. You just said things and gave me credit that my husband could never. Not because he doesn't want to give me credit over a lot of things but because anything related to the affair it's hard to give credit for.

For example, confessing on my own gets a lot of credit sometimes with certain people around here. For my husband, he understandably just focuses on it shouldn't have happened to have something to confess. That's a normal way of looking at your own spouse, that's why I typically avoid the comparisons. It's all a shit show.

It was starting to feel like a chinwag with my best buddy.

I just want to say that IC can be like that.

Honestly, the majority of IC is being able to say things outloud to an objective party. Yes, they should get you to challenge yourself on certain points. But, IC is for you to learn about yourself, to help you identify any blindspots you are having, and for them to provide some education. It really may be that you don't need IC, not all BS do. If the IC person feels you are seeing things soundly and operating okay, then their purpose dwindles for a safe place for you to talk to someone. I am getting ready to stop again because I am also reaching that point.

I had a lot of it when I was a WS, and I worked on some of the things already that they would have normally started with in this round. I am pretty self aware and know what I need to be working on, so if I continue to go it would be just to have someone to talk to. I joined a support group a few months back and between that, this forum, my husband, and an old friend that I have trusted with what is going on, I am getting that need met.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:31 PM, March 11th (Thursday)]

You are taking responsibility for not providing the right kibbles in the right amounts. You're probably misleading yourself. Gently, you're probably lying to yourself.

I gave my W LOTS of support and validation, because I saw and heard her attack herself a lot.She still cheated.

The (probable) fact is that your W didn't take in the support you did give her - a person can't take in support, especially from loved ones, when they can't validate themselves. One has to love oneself to take in love from outside.

If one attacks oneself, it's too easy to reject love from outside.

You say

My needs are still very simply

1.Close this wound (NC)

2.Why or How

3.Deal with 2

4.Honesty

1) You have to close your own wound. My description is that 'you have to process your anger, grief, fear, and shame out of your body.' If that doesn't work for you, there's nothing wrong with you - you just need a different metaphor. A good IC can help you do the processing.

I knew I was on the right track when I was letting my body do the work - crying, shuddering, etc. in IC sessions. That's one way of knowing I was releasing pain. There must be other ways of doing it. You have to find what works for you.

But there's nothing much your W can do about your pain.

2) What do you think you'll get from know why your W cheated?

My W cheated because she hated herself. My bet is that some variation of self-hate is a major reason for a lot of cheating. I may even be willing to bet it's at the bottom of the majority of cheating, though I have no idea how to prove that.

In any case, to become good partners, WSes need to change from self-hate to self-love (which is entirely different from self-indulgence).

So the main questions are, 'How ill the WS make that change? What is the WS willing to do to effect those changes? What will keep the WS on track when the process gets very difficult?'

The 'why' can, and often is, a path into change, but it is not enough.Many people go into therapy hoping to change, but they settle for getting better at their dysfunctional thinking and behavior.

3) In R, you deal with 2 by monitoring your WS and deciding whether it's enough change, both in quantity and speed.

4) Honesty is crucial, and it starts with being honest with oneself. Your W has a LOT of latitude in deciding what's being honest with herself. If her view of honesty is too far different from yours, you're very possibly - probably? definitely? - in a bad match.

*****

I wonder, TD, if you have given up trying to control the outcome of your W's cheating.

Your best bet is to stop trying to control anything but yourself. Maybe you can R; maybe not. You can survive and thrive either way.

I write the above because I think you may know it logically but not believe it in your gut, where it counts.

*****

I never saw R as accepting a shit sandwich. I don't think I'd accept that. I see my W's A as her failure, not mine. It's something she did on her own, but, you know, I don't own her and never did. She doesn't own me. Her actions may reflect on me, but the only way I can stop that is to D her, and I don't want to do that.

If you think R is a shit sandwich, I don't see how you can R. IMO, one has to want R, and I can't conceive of wanting a shit sandwich. (Of course, having said that, now I fear the next post will explain that some delicacy that we all love is made from the excrement of some creature....)

Maybe R - a good M despite cheating - just isn't for people who resonate positively to the shit sandwich metaphor. There's nothing wrong with that. After being betrayed, I think the best goal is to survive and thrive. Sometimes R is the best way for that to come about; sometime it's D.

As I've written, I will not let myself be destroyed by the shattering of an illusion, and I won't knowingly twist myself into a pretzel to turn one thing into another in my head. (In fact, I work very hard not to mistake one thing for another.)

Being betrayed is awful. I have to accept that my W cheated, but other than that, I have a wide array of options available for responding to her betrayal. I get to choose the one I think will be best - and I can often change my mind if I don't like the way life is working out.

It was starting to feel like a chinwag with my best buddy.

You can stay away from that by keeping your goals in mind. Your IC is not your friend. Your IC is a professional you hire to help you make changes in yourself.