SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To clarify and add to my response, all of the work HO mentioned is crucial to affecting real change in a WS, but usually is done in a secure and safe environment where there is a strong element of privacy. Sharing ICs is dicey. If your WS is going to get real with herself, I think it would be helpful if she didn't know her deepest and potential darkest thoughts and fears were going to be shared with her spouse. At least not at the beginning stages. YMMV.

So she says we should focus on the future and build better communication strategies (basically so WGF can air her future grievances) and that we can have a good relationship and take all the benefits.

Echoing all those who advise against the same IC. Here in California I think there’s some agreed upon ethical arrangements against this. And you’re reaping the benefits of that above.

I emphasized your parentheses to point out a key word- “basically.” Paraphrasing often highlights assumptions, and this one could cut both ways. Bear in mind that as H.O. pointed out, the communication issues could be very narrowly your WP’s. I don’t know the exact words that led you to airing grievances, but that highlights a flawed outcome for open communication.

If that came from the IC directly, I’d either have WP find a different one, or find a new one myself. The other side of that is that your defenses- Which are entirely justified, are translating that discussion for you.

Regardless, the point is what has been articulated previously- I believe you need to diagnose the cause, not the symptom. By setting IC as a condition, she got a pass to prove she tried. “Well, I went. Happy?” The output OF IC matters more. It was too late when my XBW got the words out in a way I could effectively hear: “You’re not safe, and I need you to be safe.”

In my case, I started IC about 3 months post DDay. It had been something I wanted as I felt increasingly out of control, even before DDay. MC began roughly the same time. During the 2 months we were in regular MC and I was beginning IC, I was still breaking NC and lying about it. Coming here in conjunction with separation was where everything cemented and I told the truth.

I STILL wasn’t on the right track entirely though, and it took a year of isolation before I got on a recovery footing that has been ongoing for the past year. It took time living the consequence. That’s my situation- I had deep-seeded assumptions about sex and love, though, so it doesn’t mean she’s not viable. But it doesn’t sound like she’s ready.

1) You'll never have a gut-level understanding of her whys.

2) What have you asked your WGF (or is she your WS?) to do?

I ask because the requests and the way they're stated can be extremely important.

How has she responded? To what extent has she stepped up?

Did you state consequences of not meeting your requirements or satisfying your requests? What opportunities have you had in which consequences might be appropriate?

3) You seem to say your IC has taken your WGF's side. Has she actually done that?

It's very difficult to be equally for 2 people in conflict. The better the C, the more likely the C is to refuse to work with both parts of a couple unless there's little chance of conflict. Your IC may not be capable of counseling both of you.

OTOH, it's pretty difficult, I think, to keep an entire conversation in mind. In reporting, you have to pick and choose, so the IC may not be taking your WGF's side. If she has, though, you both probably need new ICs.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:08 PM, March 4th (Thursday)]

2D,

Here's my top level most important point: You're shared IC is encouraging blameshifting (it's a shared communication problem) and rugsweeping (that's a problem of the past and we need to look at the future). Fuck that.

I'm sorry your IC seems to fall into the "socks on the floor" therapist trope that I have brought up before on this forum.

This type of IC works on the condition that both parties genuinely want to improve their marriage and change for the better. Furthermore, it operates under the assumption that capitulation by either spouse is an acceptable solution to any problem. You just have to figure out which one is willing to go on record capitulating.

When the problems are "my husband always leaves his socks on the floor and never picks them up" it can work. When the problems are "my husband fucks other women after work and on the weekends" it doesn't.

This type of therapist is NOT an infidelity specialist. They buy into the argument that infidelity is a symptom of MARITAL issues. Not a fundamental problem with the person that is unfaithful. You could maybe dig in on this topic with your therapist.

"Do you think infidelity is a symptom of a problem with a marriage or of an individual?"

or

"If my wife is breaking promises to me, is that a symptom of bad communication from my end?"

or

"When trust is fundamentally broken, how do you recommend rebuilding that trust?"

or don't even ask a question

"I am not accepting any blame for what my wife chose to do, or any indication that anything I could have done would have prevented it. She took those actions, that is her fault. I'm happy to discuss any failure prior to the A or after the A that I had related to the M. I will own that failure, and work on it. However, I will never at any point accept that my failures caused my wife to do anything. As we move forward, the most important thing to do is rebuild the trust my wife has broken. This is the highest priority item. To do that we need to understand why HER boundaries broke down, not what the contributing environmental factors are. Because I need to know if the contributing environmental factors, many of which I have no control over, present themselves in a way that challenges her boundary again she will instead hold firm rather than engaging in infidelity. I am happy to work on my communication skills so that I can get this point across to you and to my wife. I am unhappy. I don't trust my wife because she cheated on me and lied to me and that makes me very unhappy."

Maybe your second counselor had the right idea. Do you know why you are staying well enough to explain it to your therapist?

I have a long written pros and cons list of staying M and getting D with a five year outlook (I know you said you had a hard time visualizing your future in another thread). For some time, the material positives alone were enough to outweigh, "I don't trust my wife and feel unsafe". But that needed to be fixed. With that, I have a much more solid argument for staying now.

I believe that IC and MC can help in the R process. I really do. I did have to fire one MC, and that's fine. You might have to keep looking for a good set of counselors.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 2:44 PM, March 4th (Thursday)]

I think it’s entirely possible that although YOU didn’t think there was anything wrong with the relationship, SHE did. I also think it’s not unreasonable for either her or the IC to say that she failed in not communicating her feelings. However, none of that made her cheat or was a valid reason to consider being unfaithful as an appropriate response to relationship dissatisfaction.

I agree with DF ^^^ Especially since you are saying the IC is saying that she needs to learn to communicate her feelings.

I don't think anything is an excuse/good reason for cheating. Whys are not an excuse though, they are the conditions that were there when the decision to cheat occurred. I just wanted to clarify that because it is absolutely not a healthy response to the resentment she grew.

To me, the WS has to figure out the Whys and fix them. Learning that they can't hold stuff in is one way to fix one why. And, I think there are always many whys within one WS. I also think they have to think about how. How was I comfortable doing that? And, so pretty soon they will start on her Foo and start tracing that.

Just please do not fall prey to thinking just because they look at the foo and point at some things that is the reason she cheated either. It's probably to figure out where her (escapist) coping comes from and how she was comfortable lying, cheating, etc.

Hows and Whys are more about finding what's wrong and fixing it rather than really explaining why she made a decision to cheat. They are about the internal environmental conditions that supported that decision and the justifications surrounding it.

The answer as to why she cheated is pretty universal. She wanted to, she liked the attention or feelings of chaos, she lacked integrity, she was escaping her feelings of unhappiness, etc. What you are fixing are the conditions that supported this.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:32 PM, March 4th (Thursday)]

What’s in this for you? Why stay?

Thanks again for all the replies

@sisoon

2) What have you asked your WGF (or is she your WS?) to do?

It’s WGF but I use the 2 terms interchangeably. We are essentially married without the legal status. It wasn’t important to either of us and we have now been together 25 years (24 at time of A)

My requirements for R are simple

1. NC (there is no ongoing A, of that I am certain, but they work in different offices of the same company. Covid has protected us from any f2f but that won’t last)

2. Find out why this was her solution to whatever she was feeling as apposed to the healthy choices she could’ve made.

3. Deal with outcome of above and develop new healthy coping skills

4. Honesty (past, present, future)

Her requirements

Let’s put the A in the past and focus on the fantabulous M we have now. You’ve done things I’ve done things let’s draw a line in the sand.

Which I am and have always been prepared to attempt to do if my needs are met.

I don’t think the IC has taken sides per say I’m just thinking we have very different views on what rugsweeping is. She wants to focus on the better future and I want to deal with the points in my list above first.

So IC is in agreement with point 1 but not at this point about 2 or 3

@Darkness @Hiking

I think it’s entirely possible that although YOU didn’t think there was anything wrong with the relationship, SHE did

It was a very tough pill to swallow but I I have accepted this. I have also by both WGF and ICs statements resolved whatever it was that I brought / didn’t bring to the M. WGF has repeatably told me that she loves Twodozen more than at anytime in our 25 years together. The grievances that WGF has cited have been so minimal that it makes it a very tough pill to swallow but I have. For example she recited a story of how I “barked” at her on holiday 9 years ago (not my MO but I can’t deny it happened) . 2 things you can take from this, one she never told me that what I had said bothered her at the time and two, that was the last time I barked at her, 9 years ago. Now how many relationships have that many years between any minor bickers?

So I have held up my side of the R bargain. Now I need her to step up and hold up hers. See list above.

@TIF, I have been following your journey. We are on very similar timelines and have very similar stories. I see that you have taken the bull by the horns recently and for that you have my admiration. I hope you will see from my recent ramblings that I am not too far behind you. At present WGF and I are in official “limbo” I’d say this is a precursor to IHS, I have told her my requirements are my minimum and without them we have no future together.

I’d be interested to hear more about your pros / cons list

@3yrsout

What’s in this for you? Why stay?

The usual, I love my WGF, we have kids, shared dreams, we are very compatible, we are (and please don’t shoot me) best friends. We have a very comfortable life together, like the same things, enjoy each other’s company more than anyone else’s. We are in our mid forties and on target to be able to retire in our mid 50s if we desire. That will all change if we don’t fight our way through this.

I can hold my hand up and say that even though I thought we were good pre A we are better together post A because we both learned a lot on what the other person need but we still (she still) has a very long way to go (and I still have a lot of healing to do) but as mentioned above we may have arrived at the blocking point. It has taken me a year working with ICs to decide what I can and what I can’t do without and demand those things. We have as I write this agreed that we can’t move forward, that neither of us likes where we are but it’s a fact. We havnt officially split but it’s the next logical step if neither of us budges from our current positions.

FYI I have no plans to budge on my needs

Now I know that I’ve shared a lot and there may very well be some 2x4s inbound. I post in R mainly for 2 reasons 1. Because that’s where my heart is and 2. Because Im not a fan of the burn the witch type responses.

Please be mindful that I know what MY needs are. It may have taken me a long time to gather the strength to know that without them I can’t move forward or heal fully. WGF made her choices, she has to live with those R or D and it is now up to her to decide if she is capable, willing and has the strength and or courage to do the hard work and take that journey.

At the time of writing this,14 months in, I am in a better place than I was 12 months, 6 months, 3 months ago. I have to come to a place of understanding that you don’t always get what you want, I am not responsible for the choices of others, and that I cannot make someone be someone they are not. No amount of wishing things were different changes anything.

I don’t like it but I have accepted it.

Some random reactions...

1. NC (there is no ongoing A, of that I am certain, but they work in different offices of the same company. Covid has protected us from any f2f but that won’t last)

2. Find out why this was her solution to whatever she was feeling as apposed to the healthy choices she could’ve made.

3. Deal with outcome of above and develop new healthy coping skills

4. Honesty (past, present, future)

The 1st and 4th I get. I wonder if it would benefit you to rethink or clarify 2 & 3.

I don't give much of a damn about why. What I cared about was for my W to change her behavior so that she wouldn't betray me or herself again.

Now, 'why' can help lead to changed behavior, but changing behavior requires hard work. Knowing why one effs up doesn't automatically lead to change. That's why I often write that R requires the WS to change from betrayer to good partner.

I think you're covering that with your new coping skills requirement, but ... I think in terms of learning to 'do the next right thing.' That seems like so much more fun than learning to cope better. 'Doing the next right thing' provides an opening for joy. 'Coping' means, to me, preventing some bad stuff.

WRT 'dealing with the outcome', well, you both have to deal with the outcome, and you both have many options of how to deal with the outcome. Do you have specifics?

*****

Your WSO's - if you don't mind my throwing yet another term into the mix - requirement to rugsweep is impossible to put into practice. Her A is part of your history, and it's a gigantic part of your recent history. I don't know how you can put it away.

If she wants to avoid dealing with her betraying you (and herself), she won't heal. She needs to own her shit - she needs to take responsibility for and ownership of her cheating in particular and behavior in general. If she's not ready to do that, she's not yet ready to R.

After 25 years together, I can understand giving her time to become a good candidate for R. But what if she refuses to do the necessary work?

I encouraged my W to do the work long before her A. I kept telling her that looking inside seemed a scarier than it actually was and that the payoff was wonderful.

I was about to recommend that you encourage your WGF to do the work - but then I remembered my words had no effect on my W and probably have no effect on anyone. No one changes unless and until they're ready to change....

*****

One of my requirements for R was IC for my W, with a signed release that allowed her IC to talk with me about what my W was doing in therapy. Her IC said she'd probably want a joint session if I asked any non-yes/no questions, which was OK with me.

I recommend you get that signed release. Include a provision that the IC can bring anything from your WSO's IC sessions into CC sessions.

My W's IC became our MC, but 90-95% of the session time was about my W's internal messaging. Our MC, I thought, was pretty much more IC for my W with me to confirm some stuff than MC. That makes sense, because my W's internal messaging was - probably still is - the biggest problem in our M.

*****

Our MC started on d-day. It was all A all the time for the first several months at least. Come to think of it, our MC never mentioned communication.

Her method was to ask us (but not in these words) 'What internal message do you hear when you hear ____ from your partner? Does that message help or hinder you?'

*****

My question about 'WGF or WS' was just curiosity, BTW, and I like to use the proper terms. I did not intend to put any moral value on one relationship or another.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:29 AM, March 5th (Friday)]

Morning all and thanks for all your replies so far

So I’ve had my next follow up with my IC who is now also WGFs IC and potentially would become our MC if we choose to go that route

I would say that we have progress but that the progress is not what I wanted but that “it is what it is”

IC says that she had listened to me and agrees with everything I have told her. That my list of requirements is totally reasonable and she is convinced having questioned me from every angle conceivable that these are my needs and without them I will remain stuck.

Ultimately she sees that I need WGF to own this and herein lies the major issue.

IC says that my WGFs whys are her truth and that she cannot change that for me. She advised me that WGF still believes the rewriting of the marriage and the only reason WGF is still here is because I became super Twodozen right off the bat on Dday. Actually she recognises that I did this pre A but that due to some long held resentments over minor normal relationship issues that went unspoken that WGF was blind to my efforts until dday. Almost like she needed to “control alt delete” and blow her life up to be able to WTFU and it’s an exact repeat of what her sister, mother, grandmother and mothers paternal aunts all did.

She’s told me that WGF does regret what she did and that she loves Twodozen and wants to build a new life with me but that she cannot change her perception of why this happened.

She agrees that I need NC, she has never had a case without it that worked, but has advised that because I have been totally honest with WGF (something she doesn’t necessarily think is always a good thing) and never given any guarantees that quitting her job will mean R that WGF has said she cannot take that risk. FYI WGF is in a job that pays far more than she would get anywhere else (like double) so from a pragmatic point of view both IC and myself do understand this.

I asked about what work she would continue with WGF to ensure that the thoughts processes that allowed her to think that having an A was okay or the answer to her “unhappiness” and iC told me the following

If I split you both down the middle and was able to show you what you look like inside you would see that you are 2 different people, I cannot change that, I cannot make WGF think the way you do. I cannot give her your moral compass, in fact very few people have your moral compass. She has some poor coping skills that we could help her with but we cannot go back in time and change what she did and ultimately you have to decide if you are okay with that.

She told me that she can clearly see the love that we have for each other and if we was able to put this behind us and focus on the future not the past we have a good chance. But that there will always be an element of distrust and thats something I have to decide if I’m okay with.

So that’s my update, I called it progress in my intro because the positive side of my brain says “okay, we know where we are” but ultimately I have to decide if I’m okay with this situation.

So where do we go from here

1. Fire this IC? Tbh I’m not sure if I see the point, it’s taken WGF 15 months to get this far and each one I’ve met with has basically taken the only way to stay together is eat the shit sandwich approach.

2. Read between the lines and accept that I need what I need, WGF is unable to give these things and move forward with S even if that isn’t what either of us claim to want.

3. STFU and eat the shit sandwich

To finish I will quote my previous post the reasons why I am still here, because to me they are still true

What’s in this for you? Why stay?

The usual, I love my WGF, we have kids, shared dreams, we are very compatible, we are (and please don’t shoot me) best friends. We have a very comfortable life together, like the same things, enjoy each other’s company more than anyone else’s. We are in our mid forties and on target to be able to retire in our mid 50s if we desire. That will all change if we don’t fight our way through this.

As I sit here today my brain is telling me that even if I don’t take option 2 today, resentment will build and I will, or she will at some point decide to take that option. That options 1 or option 3 are just kicking the can down the road. I have known this for a long time, I don’t like it, I have tried to change it but ultimately I cannot change it on my own. Not even super Twodozen can do that.

I welcome any thoughts and advice because in previous posts some members have been able to dissect the information and present it differently to how I had initially perceived it.

I am and have been for a while ready to move on, I’ts never been my goal but I’ve prepared myself as best as possible for that outcome. I feel I may be moving to the D/S forum soon, that this was maybe always the way this was going to go. But if that is the case I will be able to hold my head up high, know in my heart that i gave it everything I have.

Thanks as always 2D

If I split you both down the middle and was able to show you what you look like inside you would see that you are 2 different people, I cannot change that, I cannot make WGF think the way you do. I cannot give her your moral compass, in fact very few people have your moral compass. She has some poor coping skills that we could help her with but we cannot go back in time and change what she did and ultimately you have to decide if you are okay with that.

I think this is a pretty good summary of where you are.

As much as I respect sisoon, I would have advised him against requiring access to the content of his WW's therapy. I understand the reasoning behind it, but think it carries a substantial risk of making the therapy itself a meaningless piece of performance art. A WS who is avoidant with you is going to be just as avoidant, maybe even more so, with a professional who is ostensibly there to help them but reports back to you. Who is really the client in this scenario? What accused person, especially a guilty one, doesn't design their testimony to impress the judge?

I have backed away from this thread several times without posting because it's a bit triggery for me. My BH grew up in a home where his mother dragged his father, and sometimes the whole family, to see a counselor. Supposedly everyone had a voice in resolving their issues, but in reality, his mother had an existing relationship with the therapist, and their goal was to get everyone to see things my MIL's way. Expressing any unpopular opinion resulted in lip service validation, followed by an extended explanation of why that viewpoint was wrong. This was an ineffective approach, and every one of her children grew up bitterly resistant to therapy. I've lived a lot of my life with the consequences of my husband's contempt and distrust of the value of counseling because of this "let's bring him in to tell him why his feelings are wrong" approach. He's come around in recent years, but I think it's a big part of the reason he rugswept and suffered so long in the aftermath of my A.

Therapy isn't like taking a malfunctioning vehicle in to the mechanic to get it fixed. The therapist can't find the problem, put in a new part, and send your WW back to you under a warranty. It's messy and exploratory and may seem to be going backward for a long time before it moves forward. It's quite possible that my MIL's views had more objective merit than the rest of the family, but she had a timetable and strong opinions on how those views should be presented that were completely counterproductive. She needed a therapist that told her to stop managing the process. Your initial post reminded me of this story, despite nods to your WW's autonomy.

I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive. I don't mean it to be. I think you are understandably at the end of your rope, desperate for your therapist to wake your WW up. But she's right: she can't do that, and she especially can't do it in conditions where everyone knows that the real client here is you.

@BraveSirRibon appreciate the feedback and no I don’t find it aggressive. I need the insights of those who have trodden this path before me so thank you for the above

Essentially I think this boils down to either

WGF doesn’t get it, which I think is ICs perspective that she will never understand the trauma she has inflicted because what she did is totally normal in her FOO and in every single case it worked out okay.

Or

WGF does get it but I cannot see it. Her way to fix this which is essentially work on marriage 2.0 and put marriage 1.0 in the rear view mirror is way too early in the process for me.

I lost my ability to trust my gut 18 months ago and it hasn’t come back so I guess I need someone else’s opinion. Even (tongue in cheek) trusting the opinion of internet strangers over my own.

As I’ve alluded to in my posts in this thread and others. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that even though (IMO) marriage 1.0 was good, one of the best I knew, marriage 2.0 is so much better. Why isn’t that good enough for me? Why can’t I say, well something good came out of something terrible?

Because I suppose WGF has fought me at every juncture to do the basics, that I find on each and every infidelity site / blog / therapist website.

How is it that we’ve achieved marriage 2.0 without those things?

Am I being hoodwinked (I don’t mean an active A) because Twodozen has shown Mrs Twodozen over the last 15 months the man he can be, he has listened and sought knowledge and done everything he could to fix himself

Mrs Twodozen has yet to acknowledge she has anything to fix within herself.

WGF doesn’t get it, which I think is ICs perspective that she will never understand the trauma she has inflicted because what she did is totally normal in her FOO and in every single case it worked out okay.

Or

WGF does get it but I cannot see it. Her way to fix this which is essentially work on marriage 2.0 and put marriage 1.0 in the rear view mirror is way too early in the process for me.

More the first than the second I would think. If she got it, she'd understand that the blame shifting makes her an unsafe partner. She's taking actions to be a better partner in the relationship, but not making herself a safe partner. Unfortunately you need the latter to be able to do your part in repairing the relationship.

If it is the first reason, that doesn't rule out that the WS can't get it eventually. What matters is how much longer you willing to live in limbo to find out. The other consideration is will proceeding with separation cause that shift in your waywords perception? Can you trust it's true if it does?

Kind of the whole you have to be willing to give up on the relationship for it to survive. Tough call.

I'm not a therapist, but I can say that this feels similar to the conundrum I run across as a remorseful WW trying to reach remorseless WS when they first arrive here. If they had the empathy and skills for self-examination, they never would have gotten into an affair in the first place. Sometimes, they need to feel heard before they can open their minds to listening. I don't mean false validation of the "Of course, now I see why you felt you had to cheat" variety, but "I can hear you're in pain, let's talk about where that's coming from and how it led you to be okay with making this choice." To some readers, these two approaches are a distinction without a difference, and they find it enabling and offensive. To me, the first one ties off the discussion in a neat little rugsweeping bow, but the second starts guiding the WS along a meandering path to potential enlightenment. I can't drag them there, but hopefully, I can convince at least some of them to walk along it with me. My sympathy isn't disingenuous, either. I was them once, damaged and selfish and entitled and foggy, and I needed the help of SI to get me to see it.

You can absolutely decide that you can't afford the mental sacrifice of waiting around to see if this slow process actually gets anywhere. Often, it doesn't. Holding on might drain you of what remains of your sense of self, so that when she arrives at remorse, there isn't enough left of you to give a shit. Maybe it's not a kindness to tell you that there's an Option 3, "No, your WW doesn't get it, but over time, there's at least some chance that she might." In your case, that just might not matter anymore.

@ grubs, it certainly is

I had this conversation with WGF this week. I said you know what I’ve asked for, and you have said that you understand my needs and why I have asked for them. She nodded

But let’s say, I don’t get any of them, and we stay together anyway because let’s be honest I’ve survived like that now for 15 months already

And let’s say we stay together for another 15 months, another 15 years, 40 years without you giving me what I’ve asked for

We have a good marriage, but you know, you know that behind my “brave face” I’m really still in pain because I didn’t get these things

Are you okay with that?

She couldn’t answer.

Now I don’t think that she really is okay with me being in pain forever. I think that she believes in time her efforts outside of my requirements will mean that my requirements will evolve or diminish

So it seems that whilst I wait for her to “get it” she is simultaneously waiting for me to “see it”

[This message edited by TwoDozen at 9:13 AM, March 10th (Wednesday)]

What bothers me about the 'good future if you put the A behind you' idea is that your WGF got angry at you(?) and cheated, and she's bound to get angry at you again. If she still thinks that's justification for cheating, she's likely cheat again. And if she has rewritten your M history and given herself permission to cheat, I don't see how you can reach a satisfying level of intimacy.

My W & I are very different people, but we agree on the nature of our M history. You apparently don't - your WGF seems to blame you for her A. In doing so, she's lying to you and to herself. That's not a strong basis for a relationship.

My reaction is based on what you've shared here, and I know that's only a small part of the story, so the real prospects for a good life with her could be higher than they seem to me based on my understanding of your posts. But if you've posted the important parts of your story (and you probably have), and if I understand you correctly (it's always possible I've misinterpreted), R probably isn't your best bet.

*****

BTW, I have a hard time understanding how your W is getting paid twice what she can make elsewhere in your area. Businesses generally are pretty aware of the prevailing cost of labor, and even the top performers don't get paid twice what they can make from other companies.

Your W may be an outlier, of course, but I'd see if I could get some facts on salaries.

And is her job worth more than your M?

*****

WRT the release that allows your W's IC to talk with you, an IC by law has to keep the sessions confidential (with a few exceptions).

WSes lie to their BSes. The release allows the BS to get some sense of whether or not the WS is telling the truth in therapy.

My W's IC agreed with the idea of the release but told us she'd answer only simple questions - like, 'Is she still saying she wants R?' If I asked anything complex, she said she wouldn't answer; instead, she'd require a joint session.

W's IC became our MC. The release allowed her to bring stuff from IC sessions into MC sessions. There were a number of times she pushed my W to work on stuff in MC that came out first in IC sessions, and that really helped us both, always.

I've seen cases in group therapy in which an H told his W one thing but told us another. Without a release, the therapists could not warn the W. If my W told her IC one thing and me another, I damn well wanted to know about it; hence the release.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:24 AM, March 10th (Wednesday)]

BSR is so smart and she always says things in such a succinct yet powerful way. I want to underline a couple of things she said and share my thoughts about what you see as a direction.

As much as I respect sisoon, I would have advised him against requiring access to the content of his WW's therapy. I understand the reasoning behind it, but think it carries a substantial risk of making the therapy itself a meaningless piece of performance art. A WS who is avoidant with you is going to be just as avoidant, maybe even more so, with a professional who is ostensibly there to help them but reports back to you. Who is really the client in this scenario? What accused person, especially a guilty one, doesn't design their testimony to impress the judge?

I'm not a therapist, but I can say that this feels similar to the conundrum I run across as a remorseful WW trying to reach remorseless WS when they first arrive here. If they had the empathy and skills for self-examination, they never would have gotten into an affair in the first place. Sometimes, they need to feel heard before they can open their minds to listening. I don't mean false validation of the "Of course, now I see why you felt you had to cheat" variety, but "I can hear you're in pain, let's talk about where that's coming from and how it led you to be okay with making this choice." To some readers, these two approaches are a distinction without a difference, and they find it enabling and offensive. To me, the first one ties off the discussion in a neat little rugsweeping bow, but the second starts guiding the WS along a meandering path to potential enlightenment. I can't drag them there, but hopefully, I can convince at least some of them to walk along it with me. My sympathy isn't disingenuous, either. I was them once, damaged and selfish and entitled and foggy, and I needed the help of SI to get me to see it.

Powerful stuff here. I couldn't agree more.

WS get to be WS because they stay so locked in their interior world, yet they are often so not self aware.

Personally, I never thought I would ever cheat. I had never really considered cheating, or felt tempted. I have never ogled over other men, nor have I been disrespectful of my husband with my boundaries.

What I did do was tried to be a perfect wife and mother. I didn't have an example of that growing up, so I invented the roles I made on the back of creating expectations for myself that were both unrealistic and for many unsustainable. By the time I had reached the end of active motherhood, I had not a fucking clue of who I was or what I wanted. I was depressed, overworked, and my purpose for living felt like it was entirely gone. I resented my husband for expectations I put on myself and saw myself as an indentured servant.

What really was happening is I had been living a very inauthentic life. Not only did I never speak up, I didn't even know I needed to speak up. I was severely unhappy and in my eyes this was a result of my marriage.

Like your GF, my complaints and things I could point at were so minor in nature that it was disorienting to me to begin telling the IC and my husband what they were. I felt dumbfounded by the simplicity of what I was saying. Yet, it was all a new perception and it took a long time for me to embrace it.

The affair was an escape from being dead inside from my lack of authenticity. And, that lack of authenticity was not malicious, it was with the best of intentions. None of those thing had a thing to do with my husband.

So, that was a very longwinded way to say, I thought I was unhappy in my marriage, but what was truly happening is I was just plain unhappy from neglecting my relationship with myself. I didn't ever feel like my needs were as important as everyone elses, but I sacrificed too much.

What counseling taught me was how to be responsible for my own happiness. That meant healing past trauma, understanding where these perceptions came from (FOO), learning to challenge my thoughts and feelings. You can't have a relationship with someone else if you don't know what you need from that relationship because you don't even have one with yourself.

That doesn't excuse my decision to cheat. It never will. In my mind, I will never forgive myself for making that decision. I can have compassion for how I arrived on it's doorstep, and change those things but that's the best any WS can do.

If you want to make this work, you have to give your WS a little room for self discovery. Self discovery is really stunted when you are feeling pressure that your life hangs in the balance of what your answers are going to be.

At the same time, I don't discount your deep need for these answers, for her to show herself to be safe, and for you to get out of this pain. My BS hat can understand how much the pain creates a pressure that's hard to turn the valve on.

But, it's a process, self discovery takes a lot of experimenting and self reflection and work. It's time consuming. I am not at all where I used to be, but I don't even think I am half way to where I want to be. BUT - I can tell you where I want to be and why. I can point at the things I do to get there. And, I think if your WS is in therapy for many months (for me it was about 6) she can do that part.

I was once told by someone here that they believed I was the foggiest WS that ever showed up to this site and they thought I might just walk off the cliff in the midst of that fog. Some of that was because it was hard also to wrap my mind around who I had become. I couldn't face her, I was so ashamed of her. This did not fit the narrative I clung to for decades of all the effort I put into being a perfect wife and mother. I was so stuck in my pain I had no idea how to get out.

I say all this not because I want to disregard your feelings at the BS. I am definitely not trying to make her problems more important than yours because they are definitely not. What I am trying to do is offer a perspective to you that tells you what this looks like from someone further down the line.

I came up in a trailer park with a father who was a functioning alcholic, and a severely emotionally abusive mother who has always been riddled with fear and ignorance. A sister who has severe mental health issues who was physically abusive to everyone in my family. I was sexually abused by multiple people, and my mother did nothing. My counselor at school indicated that I was enjoying the attention. I grew up avoiding, detaching, and working to be perfect to keep the focus off of me. If I can learn how to be someone who copes better, makes more emotionally intelligent decisions, and someone I am learning to love, then most any WS can do the same exact thing. The factor is do they want to? Because it's a long hard trip.

Look for the desire, does it sincerely seem to be there? The more it's there the more she will try. If you want to see this through, then give her the room to try. Without the pressure of reporting on therapy. If she likes the IC, then she should stay. IC is about fit, this person may not be a good fit for you, but it might be for her. It's hard to trust her to drive this bus, but that's what it needs to be. If she doesn't have the desire/motivation that's what you need to know.

I also want to echo, your other requirements are all perfectly reasonable, and you should have boundaries with her like you never have before. I think maybe work on detaching a bit though, that will protect you better during this time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:29 AM, March 10th (Wednesday)]

@BraveSirRobin thanks again for the explanation. No it’s not unkind to give me an option 3. I am well aware by now that I can easily find evidence online to support any direction I think I might chose and I try not to do that in favour of understanding all the options in front of me......

Unfortunately my way does kinda keep me in indecision but I have become more decisive in recent weeks and I do intend to keep that momentum moving forwards.

And is her job worth more than your M?

It is not. And, I want to say that if she doesn't see this by now, that's not a good sign of the desire I was just talking about.

What bothers me about the 'good future if you put the A behind you' idea is that your WGF got angry at you(?) and cheated, and she's bound to get angry at you again. If she still thinks that's justification for cheating, she's likely cheat again. And if she has rewritten your M history and given herself permission to cheat, I don't see how you can reach a satisfying level of intimacy.

I can’t argue with any of this, it is essentially what I was trying to say

your WGF seems to blame you for her A. In doing so, she's lying to you and to herself. That's not a strong basis for a relationship.

Well one of us is lying to ourselves, I can see from both perspectives why either of us would want to do that, because the alternative is very painful.

My reaction is based on what you've shared here, and I know that's only a small part of the story, so the real prospects for a good life with her could be higher than they seem to me based on my understanding of your posts.

I share as much as I can in order to paint the picture on a particular topic where I am stuck but of course there is always more. I don’t typically come to SI and post a “hey WGF did a good thing” thread but those things do happen, frequently. I can’t emphasise enough that if the marriage 2.0 that we have today came without the trauma of infidelity then I would consider myself the luckiest guy alive, it would be difficult under the circumstances for me to get that across on a forum such as this but I generally do believe we have the “ingredients” to make it, what we don’t have is the knowledge, skill, experience to turn those ingredients into the dish they can become and it feels like she wants to eat the pudding before the main.

BTW, I have a hard time understanding how your W is getting paid twice what she can make elsewhere in your area. Businesses generally are pretty aware of the prevailing cost of labor, and even the top performers don't get paid twice what they can make from other companies.

Sorry if my description was ambiguous. Let’s say that leaving this job comes with a very real risk of having to take a career change. So essentially moving from skilled to unskilled occupation. She is currently paid twice what any of my peers wife’s make and would potentially drop to those salaries if she changed careers.

I had not a fucking clue of who I was or what I wanted. I was depressed, overworked, and my purpose for living felt like it was entirely gone. I resented my husband for expectations I put on myself and saw myself as an indentured servant.

Yeah I think WGF could’ve written this

Look for the desire, does it sincerely seem to be there? The more it's there the more she will try. If you want to see this through, then give her the room to try. Without the pressure of reporting on therapy. If she likes the IC, then she should stay. IC is about fit, this person may not be a good fit for you, but it might be for her. It's hard to trust her to drive this bus, but that's what it needs to be. If she doesn't have the desire/motivation that's what you need to know

.

I believe it is there but misdirected. I do think it is this and not CoD that keeps me hanging there.

I really appreciate all the thoughts and comments today. I think my view point has changed during the course of this discussion and I am thinking about taking myself back to my previous IC and allowing WGF to continue with this one.

That being said

And is her job worth more than your M?

It is not. And, I want to say that if she doesn't see this by now, that's not a good sign of the desire I was just talking about.

I still need a solution I am comfortable with on this point. Without this we keep the wound open, we don’t move forward.