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Hi Pine. My D Day was only three weeks ago. During a period of R, my WH said it was only an EA as well. He said they just texted, called and chatted online (lie #2451). At first he said she was from Florida, then Ontario California (lie #35463). He promised to stop talking to her (lie #45362).

I kept digging, because little things would keep coming up. For example, working late frequently with no work to show for it (lie), more requests to see friends (lie), not showing me his cell phone upon request (it was a work phone) and it was just work texting (lie), telling our therapist he would stop chatting with (lie) EA etc. I felt trapped and didn't know what to do, then I found it. Items purchased for her. I found the paper trail in a Credit Card he had under his name only. I told him if he didn't show me the CC statement for June, I would subpoena it. He showed all CC purchases a week later on D Day. He had a 2.5 year affair. Bought her 10k worth of goodies, which I helped pay for. I saw every line item. This means every date (movie, dinner, groupon), hotel, gift he (we) bought her in 2.5 years. I felt like such a fool (and found out my WH is a professional liar), but now I can move on with a D,

The Game Is Over. I cant wait to start over. I have a kid, a mortgage and finances as well, but my future seems happier. If I have to live paycheck to paycheck, well thats ok too. I am finally awake.

[This message edited by CaliforniaNative at 7:55 PM, August 26th (Saturday)]

Lots of references here to "Deep PA." Honestly, I don't know that W used the word deep in acknowledging the EA, that might be my own embellishment. But she did acknowledge the EA without qualification at the behest of the MC.

Ex-military/"war hero" OM probably gave her some pointers on polygraph countermeasures.

W was cautioned by the poly examiner during the first test cycle for varying breathing and that was thrown out. No cautions after that.

I read your WW failed the poly. Which questions resulted in deceptive answers? What questions were failed?

I kept the test simple because the examiner wanted to charge for each add'l question. What I wanted to know most is if we were at a place of truth and honesty regarding the EA, and no PA. Q was very standard and something like "have you have physical sexual contact with OM at any time" or somesuch. Examiner defined physical sexual contact for W in my presence and to my satisfaction. It was not ambiguous. It excluded things like contact of breasts through a friendly hug, etc. So she had one critical question in the course of the poly. It came up quite a number of times because of multiple testing cycles. Each time there was a very observable reaction in all the variety of biological processes monitored compared to the control questions. Examiner walked me through each of the tests on his computer, and I could clearly see things for myself.

What do her actions tell you?

That W can be selfish, immature, and manipulative.

She thinks the truth isn’t required to R or that the truth might make R harder. This is where you need to convince her that without trust R isn’t possible.

W maintains that there was no PA. She thinks that since I believe the poly, and not her, then R isn't possible and M is doomed. I think we are both short on ideas now on how to rebuild trust. I don't see what something like hypnosis might do. I have doubts that W is easily hypnotized. W's best idea is to have OM tell me there wasn't a PA. I did try to generally follow your latest approach this morning, and after just a couple minutes of conversation, W was crying and telling me that for the first time since NC was established she just wanted to call OM and talk with him because he's the only person who knows there was no PA. And that he *gets* her. So, not what I was exactly looking for. I guess tonight I have W craft that NC letter and drop it in the mail over the weekend.

I've said before that you are going to have to lead her out of this ... reframe and recalibrate the conversation to what you need to have from her to create the environment where the path forward might be reconciliation

Yeah, pretty clear she isn't going to lead here. I'll have to see if I can put together the lying timeline.

Your wife desperately wants to be the victim - and paint you as abuser

Yes, this is the emerging theme of the past couple of weeks. It is becoming very old, fast.

I had an IC session yesterday. It was so-so. My biggest issue that I wanted help with was honestly just feeling more in control. Gaining control over the emotions. Her message to me was that it was okay to still feel the emotions, there's no timeline for how long I should be feeling sad over the betrayal. True, I guess. I'm just going to focus on sleeping as best I can and getting my exercise routine back. That's been tough due to lack of sleep, some injuries I'm still rehabbing from, and now a cold for the past week. At least I got a short run in this morning w/ my youngest, that felt good.

We talked some about rebuilding trust when I don't believe W's account of things. The counselor said that she has another couple in a similar situation, call it a murky EA, and it's taken that couple about a year to get to the point where BS is beginning to regain trust. Good for him/her I suppose. Not sure I could do the same.

I honestly don't know what more to look for from IC. It sucks, W took a mountain-sized dump all over me and our marriage. Okay, got it, now I'm just picking myself back up and getting going with life again. I'm sad less often than early on, angry much less often right now, keeping my alcohol consumption under better control mostly.

Next is figuring out what to do with the M. I'm honestly growing wary of the game of tickling the truth out and fielding the ever shifting barrage of emotional neediness, aggression, etc. coming from W. W isn't liking the distant me very much. I am, though.

W's best idea is to have OM tell me there wasn't a PA.

I'm sorry but that actually made me laugh out loud. You know what happened, and you know it was a PA. I wish you the best of luck coming to grips with the continued lying and deception if you choose to reconcile.

Your wife desperately wants to be the victim.

IMO your wife doesn’t want a divorce but better that than you being the victim. In her mind if she admits to a PA she forfeits her victim status.

if thats the way things are turning out it is almost like she said sorry and you should of forgotten the whole saga

By suggesting the AP tells you in person that nothing physical happened is just a insulting joke and still puts their team in the same corner and you in the opposite corner

Your still being treated as the enemy and w wanting to phone him to get some relief just shows he is first and foremost on her mind as a emotional savoir ,id be showing her the door with a suit case after that insensitive remark

Then the dump on your marriage what was that about

W's best idea is to have OM tell me there wasn't a PA.

Do not allow this to happen. It will make you look weak, and fuck with your head regardless of what the OM has to say.

It is likely they've conspired to concoct a story that supports her claims of just an EA anyway. The fact that she has even suggested this, shows an extreme level of narcissism in her, that you'd be gullible enough to believe what the POSOM would tell you.

Sorry Pine, you and your WW may find a way survive her betrayal, but I hope that you will not put aside you misgivings just to R. I doubt you would ever feel safe or trust her enough to truly R, or be completely happy with her again as a loving life partner.

[This message edited by LM2017 at 11:52 PM, August 26th (Saturday)]

Looks like you are in an emotionally difficult position and it is affecting your conduct and health parameters like immunity. Looks like you want to somehow get the proof this is not a PA. If you want to R you need to decide whether you can do it even if it is a PA. Both cheaters are trying to act like they have honorable characters and WW use that perception to embarrass you for not believing her. I think you should talk to OM and put him in his place by saying he had the gall to introduce himself to you while he was in the affair and tell him at least he owes it to tell you what really happened.

BS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:09 PM, September 3rd (Sunday)]

It doesn't sound like your wife has taken the time to really learn much about the affair recovery process that Betrayed spouses go through and deal with.

You see, it isn't the time to learn, which she has been working hard on. Literally, something like four or five complete books. And I get comments like "I'm so sorry that I've done this to you and caused you so much pain." Which is great. That's the kind of stuff you want to hear. Until it's followed by "If OM hadn't left the company, I never would have sent that text [about meeting OM out-of-town]."

Truly, that was tonight.

The 1st text that I saw from W to OM inviting him to happy hour finished with an emoticon which I guess is called "Angel baby." I asked W what this meant when we were texting back and forth a while ago, and then I found this before she could answer. She swears she had no idea it had this meaning:

http://www.yourtango.com/2014204400/flirting-tips-dating-sexiest-emoticons-what-they-really-mean

The number one rule of emoticons is that Angel Baby means sex. There's really no way around it. Putting Angel Baby in any sentence simply says, "I am d-o-w-n to get dirty." Don't let the angelic face fool you. It is basically the foreplay of the emoji world.

When To Use: Whether you send it first or he does, there is bound to be some naughty action taking place as soon as you are face-to-face. You've been warned.

I'm not a big emoticon guy, besides the occasional smiley face. Is anybody else familiar with that emoticon? It's #5 in the link that I listed.

Pine:

Few things hurt us worse than lying to ourselves.

No remorse.

Only the OM gets her.

The DTF emoticon.

Failed poly.

Emotional manipulation in the wake of failing the poly.

Trickle truth is STILL happening.

At this point you could have video of the two of them having sex and I believe you would find a way to rationalize it.

Stop living in denial.

The craziest part of this is the loss of control. All this horrible shit coming at us in all directions and we can't do a damned thing about it. But that's not entirely true you know....

The turning point for me, came right after dday 2. I realized that I could not make my H stop cheating. I could not force him to be truthful and I could not strong arm him into loving me. The only thing I could control - was me. I am in complete control over my choices...my actions. And in that moment, I chose to no longer be disrespected. I chose me...and it was liberating. 30 minutes after that epiphany - I sat my H down and told him calmly my plan for divorcing him. After my speech - my husband spent about half an hour trying to shame me for giving up in the marriage - yelled at me to change my mind - guilt trip me for the sake of the kids...you see - he was trying to control me, but that was my last domain of sanity and I held strong through all his attempts. Funny thing happened then, he suddenly gave up. Shoulders slumped...look of defeat on his face - he composed a NC text to OW. He confessed everything...no more gaslighting, blameshifting - just the truth.

Once the wayward realizes the jig is up and they've got nothing left to lose - that's when they fly straight. You have to risk losing the marriage in order to save it. But the longer you wait, the more abuse and disrespect you'll have to endure - and that will kill all desire you might still have to attempt reconciliation.

[This message edited by sassylee at 11:07 PM, August 26th (Saturday)]

^^

Sassy has it nailed.

Pine, when she wants to play tug of war, the best thing you can do is drop the rope.

Sassy has told you exactly how she did it. Take notice.

At this point you could have video of the two of them having sex and I believe you would find a way to rationalize it.

I have that video, actually. I watch it in my mind every time I have sex with W now.

What did you say when the if I hadn't texted the other Jan comment came out talk about a kick in the guts

It sounds like she's just pissed that you found out and is disappointed it's not on going

I have a suggestion. Without your wife's knowledge, call the AP and tell him that your wife finally acknowledged the PA and told you about their first time. You now want his version, without him and her, talking and synthesizing their stories. Tell him if his and her stories match then this can be fixed but if he lies then there will be more conflict. This has to be done without her knowledge so that the AP is not warned. It might be an interesting conversation. What ever the outcome, I disagree that there can be no R without complete knowledge. That is only someone's opinion who feels they have to know ever a, an, the. I am a believer in second chances. I don't believe in third chances. Do you want to try and save your marriage or watch it go down in flames because you didn't get the answer you were looking for. I never got the answer. I didn't ask and didn't want to know. If I had gotten a bad answer then a suppose friend of mine would have suffered some dire physical damage. My wife knew that and was aware of what I was capable of. My wife and I loved each other and both wanted to save what we had. Without that question being ask, my marriage has been great for more years than you have been alive. I was on guard for a few years but even that passed. You can sometimes push so hard that you can push, what you are trying to save, right over the edge into nothingness. It's your life, your marriage, and your decision. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 1:55 AM, August 27th (Sunday)]

Pine, I've used this analogy here before but to really regain control you need to be like Gandalf in the first Lord of the Rings movie. There was this huge creature chasing them and finally he just stopped in the middle of the bridge and said YOU SHALL NOT PASS. This damn creature was 800x his size. He just had it and decided to fight it head on.

You need control back.

1. Speak with OBS and let her know about the failed poly

2. Stop playing this game with your wife. Full unconditional 180

3. Speak with a lawyer to understand your rights.

That is ALL you have to do over the next week to move the needle towards regaining control.

Just do those steps.

I'd give IC more of a chance. It can be very beneficial for getting insights, knowledge and mental training to more effectively deal with this situation.

You've never answered the question of wether a PA was a deal breaker for you. Perhaps you don't know yourself or don't want to face it. IC can help you figure that out. Otherwise I can see you here 5 years from now with this still eating at you. Like Waitedwaytoolong and his story.

Another thought. While kudos to lion for his idea, if it were me I'd reach out to her ex husband long before POS AP. Quickly jumped into a relationship with a friend at work is the same MO.

If my ex's husband (who is not her AP!) came to me with a story like yours he would get an honest answer.

If you approach him just describe your situation and leave out out all details of what you know about that first marriage. Hopefully some of what he volunteers will line up with what you know (like the work friend) and you can be more confident that he is not screwing with you.

All that being said, all these games are unnecessary, really. You have multiple lines of evidence confirming PA. She is lying to you about it and only seems regretful that she got caught.

The only real question on the table is what you want to do given this knowledge. (See my IC post above).

What did you say when the if I hadn't texted the other Jan comment came out talk about a kick in the guts

It sounds like she's just pissed that you found out and is disappointed it's not on going

I said something like "If he hadn't left your work, then your affair would still be going on." To which she replied something along the lines of (paraphrasing) "Not necessarily..." and then I said "Why would it have stopped?" I don't recall that she had an answer to that, at least nothing that made any sense to me.