SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@steady

If they are it would line up with the general population. According to the last General Survey (I think) something less than 25% of men and 20% of women commit adultery. It's been said that there are some occupations/careers that seem to spawn more cheaters but this doesn't seem any different than the whole population.

I will be honest when I first typed that out I put 75% of the runners are probably cheating, seems a hotbed. I then edited it to 50 and again to 25 as I thought some of the BSes here would object and say quite rightly not everyone is a cheat. In hindsight and given BRs wife was sleeping with 2 of the runners and it seems her friend was too then yea I think well over 25% of the runners there are probably getting drunk and wrecking their relationships. Probably pretty commonplace at these after race parties .....

Doing everything right can be part of damage control. This just happened. The real test is with time. Will it stick? Will it get too tough to white knuckle?

Exactly what I have been saying, BR is happy so far and his VAR is coming up clean. Poly next, people should keep their powder dry.

LemonCurd, you haven't been here long and you're offside by criticizing members who take time to respond to those who come here hurting and wanting input. If you take the time to read a lot of postings you might see that even when there are differences in the story there are many similarities. That's where Cheater 101 comes from and terms like cheater speak. Those posting want the betrayed to get out of adultery. They want to help the betrayed to not make the mistakes they, like I, made

Been here almost 7 months diligently almost every day my friend. I just avoided posting, but this thread I found infuriating for the points I have made elsewhere and felt compelled to come to BRs defence. I have not criticized people by name and nor would I but I feel sme people have glossed over and not read what BR has posted.

SI is littered with confused BSes unsure of how to proceed (I was one to a point after I went nucear), how much pressure to apply or what actions to take to discern the truth.

BR has executed a plan he has confidence with, wife crumpled and gave up everything including her passion and her friends and her job/promotion and floating the idea of a poly herself. Could it be damage control? Sure, but I feel not enough credit has been given to BR as he is the one here who knows his wife and looked into her eyes.

Not enough credit has been given to his wife and she has been painted as wanting an open marriage, possibly forging her diary and just waiting for another opp to cheat. Nothing BR has said indicates any of this is even remotely true (maybe I missed it?)

Her family are on his side, BR has VAR and is springing a poly. Has her phones, passwords, works phone access and she is putting forward her own ideas which she is clearly gleaning from some online source.

I'm merely rooting for BR because there are enough tales of woe on this forum and I feel there is a very good chance his wife is genuine and BR is correctly reading her ...

If she had wanted to she could ahve followed the cheaters handbook and minimized, lied prolifically, kept her diary and secret emails secret, tried to get her parents on side, stayed friends with her workmate and a myriad of other things the majority of cheaters exposed on this forum did after discovery.

I am not suggesting she is a unicorn but merely genuine in her remorse.

Well said LemonCurd

[This message edited by Buffer at 10:45 PM, October 4th (Friday)]

Sorry but IMHO when it comes to infidelity, the "mid life crisis" and "perfect storm" reasons/excuses are nothing but BULLSHIT,

If that was directed at me you will notice I did not call them excuses. I said:

It was NOT directed at you, it was directed at OP, and I stand by it, I said from the beginning that I like how OP is handling this except for the EXPOSURE part (and I've stated my reasons for it) but that's his decision and I respect it, I also disagree with the "midlife crisis" and "perfect storm" statements, infidelity has NOTHING to do with age or a series of circumstances aka "perfect storm", infidelity is ALWAYS a DECISION and a CHOICE cheaters WILLINGLY make, simply because they WANT to, period.

infidelity has NOTHING to do with age or a series of circumstances aka "perfect storm", infidelity is ALWAYS a DECISION and a CHOICE cheaters WILLINGLY make, simply because they WANT to, period.

I agree that it is always a choice, etc.

I also KNOW for a FACT that infidelity occurs more often in certain populations of people, such as military families with frequent deployments. A lot more.

Either those populations consist of just more bad people, or circumstances have an influence.

A common theme here is good boundaries, what happens when the boundaries get crossed, and how to avoid crossing them. This boils down to avoiding putting yourself into those circumstances. That is a choice too, to stand on the slippery slope or not, but one step removed.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 6:32 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

lemoncurd, I have seen countless affairs develop

from WW's doing separate recreational activities

without their BH.

Bicycling, running, coed sport teams, gyms.

Hanging out for hours having good times one

on one leads to the emotional bonding needed

to allow an intimate relationship grow.

These activities allow the WW and OM to date and

fall in lust or love. take your choice.

I agree that it is always a choice, etc.

I also KNOW for a FACT that infidelity occurs more often in certain populations of people, such as military families with frequent deployments. A lot more.

Either those populations consist of just more bad people, or circumstances have an influence.

A common theme here is good boundaries, what happens when the boundaries get crossed, and how to avoid crossing them. This boils down to avoiding putting yourself into those circumstances. That is a choice too, to stand on the slippery slope or not, but one step removed.

I have always believed infidelity is choice made by the wayward spouse. Not dependent on a certain set of circumstances. I also agree that few think they will get caught or even think about that possibility.

My son is in the military and he has two good friends who were deployed over seas for an extended time.

Both wives cheated while their husbands were gone.

My son's first wife cheated while he was away at training. The AP was a higher ranking officer in his command structure. He kept setting my son up with training classes at remote locations so he and her could go on little trips together.

Definitely a decision and a choice made. They created the circumstances AFTER the decision to cheat was made.

Good boundaries are important. But a prominent WW on this site, HikingOut, said that she absolutely knew boundaries and deliberately dropped them for the A.

The running/cycling clubs and gyms can be an A hotbed. But they're also a common activity.

BR seems to want a "return to normalcy" which means that WW will be doing races again soon. Perhaps joining another running club soon? As long as she passes the poly?

Buster

It was NOT directed at you, it was directed at OP, and I stand by it, I said from the beginning that I like how OP is handling this except for the EXPOSURE part (and I've stated my reasons for it) but that's his decision and I respect it, I also disagree with the "midlife crisis" and "perfect storm" statements, infidelity has NOTHING to do with age or a series of circumstances aka "perfect storm", infidelity is ALWAYS a DECISION and a CHOICE cheaters WILLINGLY make, simply because they WANT to, period.

Buster, you are correct, INFIDELITY is always a choice. On the rest of your statement, I could not disagree with you more. If you google mid life crisis you will find more articles and research on than you can read in a lifetime, as well as millions and millions of dollars being spent on therapists to get people through this crisis in their lives. To discount that as a possible WHY is entirely your opinion, which you are entitled to, but in no way is supported by anything I have been able to find. There is also a lot of literature out there that says when women approach the 30, 40, and 50, this is more likely to happen.

As for the perfect storm, I disagree with you also. Remember, I AGREED it was a choice but a choice helped along by circumstances that I and others have stated. Maybe you can explain why it never happened without being out of town at co ed athletic events, surrounded by a “friend” was actively engaged, and very very little chance of getting caught. She has been alone with make doctors at work, coaches of four daughters at sporting events, and with all sorts of other girlfriends at home. Until proven otherwise, it hasn't happened. And by the way I have repeatedly said that in my opinion, all of this unending searching for the why comes down to what you just said. A choice and she wanted too.

I'll again remind you that our heroine Mrs. Walloped, and I am not disparaging her because she has done obviously her best to repair her marriage, was sitting around a guys apartment naked three days a week, doing anal sex because she wanted to and was getting off on him begging her for it. I am hoping if you responded to his thread back then that you also advised telling every fucking person they both knew. Which I believe he has not done.

HOP

A common theme here is good boundaries, what happens when the boundaries get crossed, and how to avoid crossing them. This boils down to avoiding putting yourself into those circumstances. That is a choice too, to stand on the slippery slope or not, but one step remove

I agree. I stated early that the first shitty choice was not to remove herself from this the minute he girlfriend dropped the open marriage news on her. But I can't rewrite what happened.

LEMON CURD

Not enough credit has been given to his wife and she has been painted as wanting an open marriage, possibly forging her diary and just waiting for another opp to cheat. Nothing BR has said indicates any of this is even remotely true (maybe I missed it?)

Thank you. You didn't miss anything. The open marriage thing was asked by me to her at least six or seven times, yet some just refused to let it go. The forging the diary was preposterous, I addressed that, and one of our brethren here decided I had no right to say that and should get the fuck out of here.

Your last statement was interesting. I have looked up and down the JFO forum since I have arrived here, and maybe I missed it but I can't find anyone on there who I would like to switch places with at this stage of the shitshow.

NUMB & DUMB

BR, I think you have the right approach to all of this. I know you likely sound calmer than you probably are, but you have a plan that works for you.

I think all former D1 offensive lineman are very bright people who often think of the bigger picture versus just themselves. We aren't in it for the glory. We already know how important we are to the rest of the team. We'll leave the glory for the QBs. 

I'm not calm. !! I have what some would call a violent temper. It has gotten me thrown out of games and almost got me fired once. The plan is the act like an educated adult and not my usual kamakize pilot norm. This is that important.

And by the way, I would rather have been a QB. My body would probably not hurt as much as it does sometimes now

I have to reiterate something I heard. Your W is in crisis mode and likely will do anything that you ask for her. For right now, that is good. What happens when she runs out of scripted plays and has to improvise ?

If she wasn't in crisis mode we wouldn't still be married. If she runs out of scripted plays or changes the “scheme” again, she will do it with the next husband.

HELL FIRE

The impression I've gotten from this thread...

It's not typical that a woman cheats for those reasons. But there is no reason you can't give your wife a chance, and successfully reconcile. Many of us women have done just th

From a woman, I appreciate this. There are some who refuse to believe that a woman can have sex with the same mental thought process as we guys have since the beginning of time. And that they can like it unless they are so morally fucked up they and their lives need to be destroyed instantaneously. But that goes along with the refusal to accept that anything like mid life crisis can manifest itself this way or if it even exists.

BOUNCEBACK

BR Like so many others here your wife only stopped because she got caught, obviously you must have asked yourself how long it would have continued and would there have been more Men.

Have you asked her and what did she reply

Good question, and I have asked her and myself. You are right, probably over 90% of WW on here stopped because they got caught or were about to get exposed by AP spouse. To answer the first part, it might not have continued with AP2 much longer and AP1 was never going to get near here again, and I explained how and why she got rid of him. From her journal and e mail to girlfriend she was much more physically attracted to #1. But I would be naive to say that if she kept running with this crowd that there could never have been an AP 3. And I did ask her and if I posted her answer most would tell me its a lie, so why bother.

Thats all I have time for now. We are at another daughters school to see her compete and yes, my wife is out running by herself and i am not worried that she is going to fuck a fraternity guy when she runs down fraternity row. I apologize for the sarcasm.

I do want to go through this what I call the "perfect storm" when i get time from the beginning of what I feel is the WHY . Just do not have time now.

[This message edited by BeyondRage at 9:49 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

BR,

It was my understanding that the runs that required a hotel stay were a contrivance to allow for the trysts.

Don't know where you live, but there are plenty of runs in many metro areas that don't require a hotel stay. Particularly 5K/10K.

There are many run clubs that involve drinking. Even with those, if they are local the A interested spouse would need to set up extra time for trysts.

Maybe I have missed something, but my impression was that your WW was an active participant in setting up the lifestyle that allowed her to indulge.

BR,

Maybe I have missed something, but my impression was that your WW was an active participant in setting up the lifestyle that allowed her to indulge.

Striver,

Good question. In the beginning, there were shopping trips, looking at antiques, or other stuff women do combined with some of these. And this was BEFORE the girlfriend revealed anything about her lifestyle.

She DID NOT do it with one of these guys every time she ran in a race and sometimes she came right home. A few times she was out of town on normal business it happened. most of the time no. She had many more opportunities. She called the shots, and she never even went to either of their residences.

What WW is not an active participant in setting up the trysts? only difference is in her case she didn't have to lie to me and tell me she was going somewhere she had no intention of going, didn't have to tell me she was shopping or lost track of time when she arrived home hours late or left for work hours early, or told me she was having dinner with a friend while she was shacked up in hotel near our house.

I saw no red flags. Guess tha'ts on me.

She didn't guard her phone, she didn't sit there and text constantly, she didn't stop actively initiating sex. none of the obvious red flags occurred. I was clueless!!!

Mid life crisis may be real. Perfect storm may be real. Empty nest syndrome may be real. Many people may have those occur in their lives. Many people don't commit adultery when it happens. What is it about those who do that they can give themselves permission and encouragement, be cognizant about not getting caught and carrying on? That is where the "why" comes in. That is where the "how" did you give yourself permission and encouragement come in. What is it about you that makes you susceptible to cheat and feel no guilt about it?

lemoncurd, I have seen countless affairs develop

without their BH

@old truck Me too sadly (several) amongst my circles, hobbies and shared interests are a perfect place to bond and they are often accompanied by parties and social activities and drinks. I make it a point to get involved with my partners hobbies and interests and get to know those she hangs about with .... if she was uncomfortable with me meeting these people that in itself would be a red flag to me

Regarding BR it is clear his wife had no feelings for these guys or emotional attachment, she would have thrown them under the bus if they had been married / with partners and doesnt appear to be mourning their loss from her life.

Your last statement was interesting. I have looked up and down the JFO forum since I have arrived here, and maybe I missed it but I can't find anyone on there who I would like to switch places with at this stage of the shitshow.

@BR I don't blame you, reading the utter torture and abuse some betrayed spouses have been through to get the whole truth (man I feel for neanderthal) I think you are in a great position. My own situation my partner came clean almost right away too (I might post my tale of woe one day)

Your wife clearly understood the type of guy you are and that if she lied to you R would be gone. She deserves credit, I read through walloped threads and his wifes and she gets alot of credit but frankly it took her a very long time to get to where your wife went to right from you blowing up at her.

I hope the next few critical weeks go well for you. I know it is just my opinion but I think she just made a calculated decision to be utterly selfish and get some cheap excitement for whatever reasons you have already deduced. Sounds like she has paid a price for her decisions and she gladly paid it.

I am off to the pub with my own cheater, have a good weekend people

This is my first post so if I'm a little out of line posting please let me know.

Reading this thread I feel there's two competing ideas at play here. First, the idea that the vast majority of cases of infidelity are a personal choice and personal failing on part of the waywards. Second, the idea that BR's WW got caught up in a mid-life crisis and perfect storm of circumstance that lead to the infidelity. I think a lot of people are bucking this second idea because of the implication that, if this really was a perfect storm of circumstances, then BR's WW is ultimately a victim as well for having been caught up in the storm. Essentially a form of blame shifting, where the WW isn't really fully at fault so much as the unique circumstances are.

Thing is, I agree with both sides.

I believe, firmly from what I've read, experienced, and seen, that the majority of people simply are not willing to cross that line into betrayal. They have too much integrity, too much loyalty, too much empathy, too much of whatever to ensure that when the choice does ultimately fall on them, they choose their marriage. A loyal person will not cheat.

I don't think the reverse is true though. I don't think it's a guarantee that a cheater is going to cheat. I think it's more about probabilities and this case is the perfect example of this in action. If BR's WW was working a demanding 60+ hour job in a field with almost no younger eligible members of the opposite sex, a job that wouldn't allow her to obsess over a hobby the way that she has, would she have cheated? Maybe, but I think saying "yes" simply based on the fact that "she's a cheater" isn't really arguing in good faith. She required a number of things working in tandem to allow her inner cheater to surface. If we believe that a wayward is, in some deep personal way, broken enough to cheat, there needs to be the right circumstances to put enough stress on the part that's broken before that part ultimately fails.

This is where the "why" comes in. Many BS's need the "why" to fully process and heal, but every BS needs the "why" to ensure they don't fall victim to the same betrayal in the future. Discovering their "why" is, ultimately, how a WS becomes a safe partner for their BS. They have to find that broken part and repair it.

BR, apologies if I'm coming off harsher than I intend, but I feel like you're satisfied with the absolutely most surface reason for "why" she did what she did. You say she wanted it, you say it was a mid-life crisis, you say it was a perfect storm. I completely agree with you.

I ate breakfast this morning. I could tell you the reason why I ate breakfast was because I wanted to and it would be entirely 100% correct. It's just not that useful. I ate breakfast because I was hungry. That's also 100% correct but, while it's more useful than the previous reason, it's still not all that useful. I also ate breakfast because I've got to go in to work in a little bit and I won't be given the opportunity to eat for a few more hours. Even more useful and still 100% accurate. I also ate the specific breakfast that I ate because it'll give me a lot of energy for grappling after work today. Even more useful.

So yes, your wife wanted to do what she did. She went through a mid-life crisis and a perfect storm of circumstances hit and lead to the decisions she made. But I think not only does your WW owe it to you, but you owe it to yourself to at least try and figure out why she so happily camped out on a failing levee while the storm rolled through, and also to figure out the specific atmospheric conditions that created that storm in the first place. Because if our current political landscape and failing climate have shown anything, it's that the next "perfect storm" is right on the horizon and is liable to hit before the damage from the last storm is even repaired.

I know you've had a lot of folks arguing with you, BR, and I don't want to frustrate and stress you more than you already are, so ultimately I think you've got a great head on your shoulders and I hope everything works out as well as possible. I just wanted to throw my $.02 in there since I feel like there's a bit too much black n white thinking going on in here.

Hi BR I just wanted to pop in here and say, we have a lot in common.

My husband, when caught woke up IMMEDIATELY.

He:

Gave full transparency,

sent an NC message (without me asking),

blocked all the numbers/email addresses/social media etc, gave a full timeline,

answered every question I had,

fully owned his shit,

showed remorse quickly.

He was also a cake eater (although it was a Not Just Friends EA/PA) and like your wife that did not show any of the regular "red flags". In fact, he was so uninterested in "protecting his phone" that's how the dingus got caught - her text popped up on his lock screen

I also heard a lot of shit in the beginning from people about how my WS must be worse than I believed.

The one thing I heard that has carried me through is advice a dear friend's father gave her If it lasts for 3 years it's a true change.

It has been 36 months and my husband has been consistent the whole way through. He has grown into a partner that I am absolutely floored by his generosity and active love on a daily basis - he was a pretty good husband pre-cheating but this version of him destroys that dude in humaning.

I credit a lot of his growth to his IC and our MC (both are experienced with infidelity- there are a lot of crummy ones out there BUT if you find someone with the right expertise they are worth their weight in gold).

He never "dug into his childhood" that I am aware of or really searched for whys with either. Instead his IC worked with him on boundaries, empathy, communication, healthy coping skills and impulse control.

Those were the things I required for him to stay. I had permission from him to be in contact with his therapist. Our MC also worked directly with his therapist.

A person who risks my health (even protected sex can spread cancer causing HPV) is low on empathy.

Risking our family's stability and marriage for something new and cheap shows a lack of impulse control and mindfulness.

Oversharing with someone and having them overshare without recognizing inappropriateness shows crummy boundaries.

He was stressed out/perfect storm/MLC and presented with opportunity - both others in the EXACT same situation didn't start fucking the first person to offer it up so that showed some shitty coping skills

Communication skills we learned helped us tremendously in pretty much every way possible.

YMMV - but I'm here to say sometimes the wayward does immediately see what they stand to lose and gets their shit together. You have a good head on your shoulders, watch and wait. Hopefully, this is a wake up call for her to build up her empathy, mindfulness, boundaries and coping skills.

[This message edited by strugglebus at 2:58 PM, October 5th (Saturday)]

I think the same is true for workplace adultery as the sport/recreational co-ed events. According to Dr. Shirley Glass the workplace/water cooler was the new hook up place.

It was with my WW. Big projects, success, endorphin highs from working together and achieving. My WW went back to work after being a SAHM. She was very successful. She supervised a number of men including the AP. They travelled together and communicated only through work avenues.

BR's wife had both a return to work with what appears to be some success at a minimum with travel opportunities. Plus she had the sporting events without BR.

Opportunity, desire, exciting, don't think will get caught. Bingo.

To discount that as a possible WHY is entirely your opinion, which you are entitled to, but in no way is supported by anything I have been able to find. There is also a lot of literature out there that says when women approach the 30, 40, and 50, this is more likely to happen.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the "midlife crisis" theory when it comes to infidelity, but even if I was to agree with said "literature" (which I don't), let's for the sake of argument take that at face value for a second: Considering life expectancy in the US and most developed countries is about 80 years and that out of that, women are typically active from years 15 to 70 (between 50-55 years give or take), those 20 years you mentioned are about a whopping 30-35% of a woman's sexually active life and also a big chunk of their entire adult life and and likely an even bigger chunk of married life, based on that alone I don't think that "literature" found much and is kind of vague at best, plus it seems to fail to address the thousands of As of people younger than 30 ("young life crisis"?)and even older than 50 ("older than 50 life crisis"?), keep in mind I'm not even considering the EAs here since in your case your WW seemed to "just" want more fun sex on the side than a romantic relationship (although the possibility to develop one over time was/is very real).

As for the perfect storm, I disagree with you also. Remember, I AGREED it was a choice but a choice helped along by circumstances that I and others have stated. Maybe you can explain why it never happened without being out of town at co ed athletic events, surrounded by a “friend” was actively engaged, and very very little chance of getting caught. She has been alone with make doctors at work, coaches of four daughters at sporting events, and with all sorts of other girlfriends at home. Until proven otherwise, it hasn't happened. And by the way I have repeatedly said that in my opinion, all of this unending searching for the why comes down to what you just said. A choice and she wanted too.

Like I said before we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one too, of course if cheaters think they will get caught most at that particular time won't do it, but the intent, desire and willingness to do it is/was always there, this is one of the important things that needs to be dealt with, otherwise what will happen when the next "perfect storm" hits and she thinks you won't find out ? remember she risked her entire M and livelyhood on this not to mention your health both physical and mental so she had a very strong desire to get laid with other men and in her mind the the "reward" was worth the risk, moreover in your case you were blindsided and didn't even think there was a "crisis" or a "perfect storm" in the M, you simply trusted her and she betrayed you and took advantage of that trust, if you think about it the "perfect storm" in many cases is just every day life, millions of people face worst yet they don't cheat, it really comes down to having integrity and being loyal, she CHOSE and DECIDED to not be loyal and not have integrity, and btw yes she made hundreds of decisions and lied to you by omission, she came home and looked at you in the face every time with no end in sight, "permanent life crisis"?

I'll again remind you that our heroine Mrs. Walloped, and I am not disparaging her because she has done obviously her best to repair her marriage, was sitting around a guys apartment naked three days a week, doing anal sex because she wanted to and was getting off on him begging her for it. I am hoping if you responded to his thread back then that you also advised telling every fucking person they both knew. Which I believe he has not done.

I'm not sure where this comes from and I understand you may still be in shock by all this but If you take a closer look, Mr/Mrs Walloped's case began back in 2015 and the last post was made a few months before I joined this site, that's why I haven't made any suggestions and btw to me no WS is a hero/in including Mrs Walloped or anybody else (the same way I wouldn't call a hero a soldier who betrays his own army only to regret it after being caught then doing the right thing), however if you have been following my posts you will find that I ALWAYS suggest FULL EXPOSURE except for very few cases where I suggest delaying the exposure if I think it benefits the BS, in your case I suggested that from the get go and I have explained why.

Finally I'm glad we at least agree on the fact that infidelity is ALWAYS a CHOICE and a very conscious one, unlike many others that come here you acknowledge that your WW DECIDED to betray you and that she wanted to do it, good luck with the poly.

Buster wrote "Like I said before we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one too, of course if cheaters think they will get caught most at that particular time won't do it, but the intent, desire and willingness to do it is/was always there, this is one of the important things that needs to be dealt with, otherwise what will happen when the next "perfect storm" hits and she thinks you won't find out ? remember she risked her entire M and livelyhood on this not to mention your health both physical and mental so she had a very strong desire to get laid with other men and in her mind the the "reward" was worth the risk, moreover in your case you were blindsided and didn't even think there was a "crisis" or a "perfect storm" in the M"

All of this sounds true. And yet, it is also a limited description in several ways. And, for me at least, I think it over-simplifies the WS experiences a bit...which, in some situations, might not be helpful for those BS who are contemplating R.

"The intent, desire and willingness to do it is/was always there". That is one way to look at it. I see it a bit differently for some WS. I think they never really had the intent to do it until it started. Many WS do not go out looking for an A. A series of small steps happen and these steps are like the temperature rising in a pot of water when cooking a lobster. This does not excuse the poor boundaries nor the small decisions to keep moving forward. Not at all. But if you are considering R I think it makes a difference to understand that the small steps made the WS more comfortable and they also lured the WS in at the same time. The fantasy was built and gained momentum, like an amusement park ride she got on, for a moment thought about getting off but somehow was caught up in the thrill. Again, no excuse. Still a series of terrible decisions were made. But the reality is that the fantasy took over from the logical reality for many WS. They no longer were assessing the risks logically. They were on a ride that we can see from the outside as horrible, risky, terrible but the view was distorted from the actual seat on the ride. Like choosing to use heroin... crazy, stupid, life threatening, inexplicable. Yet a series of small things lures people in and once they are there they cannot see reality any longer.

I see the same tension with the statement "she risked her entire M and livelyhood on this not to mention your health both physical and mental so she had a very strong desire to get laid with other men". This is completely true. At the same time I can acknowledge that the fantasy was in charge. I doubt she logically thought through many of those ramifications. Well, she did think through one... she packed condoms so the std risk would be minimized. But how many WS have a scale where they actively assess "sex with other partners" vs. I am going to destroy my spouse by doing this? I don't think many do. The fantasy wins and clouds judgement.

They should consider this. It is terrible that they don't. But for me it helps a bit to understand that they never really did. Still painful and thoughtless but, well I guess less cruel because they didn't. It is a subtle distinction but for some it may be very helpful if offering R.

My intent is not to be an apologist for WS. But the reality of their failures is more complex than the logical assessment of their decisions. It doesn't make the logical assessment invalid nor untrue. But the fantasy layer was real for them at the time, however false it appears objectively now. I think understanding a bit of this distorted reality they experienced can be helpful for a BS considering to offer R.

[This message edited by Trdd at 8:31 AM, October 6th (Sunday)]

All of this sounds true. And yet, it is also a limited description in several ways. And, for me at least, I think it over-simplifies the WS experiences a bit...which, in some situations, might not be helpful for those BS who are contemplating R.

There's a centuries old saying that: "The simplest explanation is usually the right one". At some point she wanted to cheat and decided to cheat (one time is bad enough), then she went back for more and even picked a second OM, again, she just wanted to and decided to get laid with different people, she knew the risks (that's why cheaters hide their As and she even packed condoms), she knew it was very wrong, she even put it all in a journal (a very conscious act), these are facts not fantasy.

Still a series of terrible decisions were made. But the reality is that the fantasy took over from the logical reality for many WS. They no longer were assessing the risks logically. They were on a ride that we can see from the outside as horrible, risky, terrible but the view was distorted from the actual seat on the ride.

I disagree and I think you put way too much weight on the so called "fantasy", the reality is that those "terrible decisions" were made very consciously, moreover in this case based on what OP said (and I believe this) his WW didn't even have or developed feelings for OMs, she wasn't influenced by limerance, she made a "terrible" yet "very conscious" and calculated decision to cheat on OP with different men with no end in sight and like you stated she even logically calculated the risks of STDs and packed condoms before her trips, no "fantasy" here at all.

Buster, I feel like you are mising the point. It doesn't really matter. The only reason I am mentioning it is that if I was BR and thought my WW actively considered the depth of betrayal and actually understood how much pain infidelity causes.... but still did it, then R would be harder to offer. And, inherent in that statement is the underlying notion that I don't believe she did that nor do I think she likely considered nor understood just how much trauma infidelity would actually cause. That is the fantasy. No hard look at what they are doing for many WS, only reacting to their temptations, poorly.

Logically, what you wrote is true. However, the experience of it for a WS seems to be very different than writing out a balance sheet where one side the WS is actively listing the kibbles and sex and the other side they are writing down the trauma that will ensue if caught. I don't think many WS ever really consider the costs or accounts payable side of the balance sheet.

Instead, it is as if many WS are approaching a dangerous thrill ride they never considered riding before. But now there it is before them. Tentative at first, but getting in line takes you a step closer, the line moves forward, anticipation builds and pretty soon you are on the ride with few thoughts of the danger...just getting the thrill.

Yes, all active decisions. But not quite in the same way as researching to buy a house in a high risk area. None of this excuses the decisions. But there are more forces at play in these decisions than a logical analysis. And that, for me, is some explanation and some help to understand how a WS could do what they do.

Trdd:

I think you are absolutely spot on in your description and analogy of approaching a dangerous thrill ride. At least I think this is true of many, but certainly not all. Some are cold an$ calculating. But many are not. And never take into consideration how much pain or damage infidelity can do. Of course every step of the way they are making a conscious decision to move forward, and hide what they are doing, but that just adds to the danger and excitement of getting on the ride. It is not a cold calculated balance sheet approach. Thanks for posting this.