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Edith is still very much about Edith...NP is incredibly CoD with her.

^^^well, MAYBE. But, how can you say that with such certainty? We are not psychotherapists and we have a paucity of information. Unless you have met NP5 and Edith personally and spent quality time...

Again, I have a concern that we sometimes deviate from practical advice and emotional support and make things too complicated.

NP5 just wanted to drop you a note to say I am with you and can see that you are processing this. The lies really hurt. I am further out from Dday and I can tell you that is the part that sticks with you.

Keep giving your W the chances, when you feel comfortable. If you aren't in a place where you can do that, that is OK. It is hard to understand, but how else are you going to have enough information to make a decision in this ? You have watch, absorb and weigh the actions your W does now. It is hard to do that from a distance. I will also say that people that are "broken," often don't suddenly become "safe," overnight either. You have all the time you need. Just be careful to protect yourself from further hurt and make sure that what YOU need right now is provided. WS almost always fail as much as they succeed, but the key is to seeing the motivation behind it. Effort counts. Maybe not today, but it can accumulate over time. I guess that is my way of saying don't get discouraged. Keep all of your options open.

For me it was helpful to gain some detachment from my W at times. I needed to be more objective and less emotional/reactive in my decisions. The detachment scared the living daylights out of my W, but I kept it and explained why it was important for me to do so. At this point R or D decision is solely in your hands and you need to make the decision that is best for you and not your W.

It is perfectly OK to take some time to figure out what you want and need. You can D or R at any time. It is a big decision and not one that should be taken lightly.

I know this may sound off and may trigger people, but we talk a lot about safety. I see that you are trying to give your W a sense of safety sometimes while she works on becoming the W you deserve. As someone further out, I can tell you how beneficial that was to my R. It feels like a self betrayal at times and you more than likely already feel intense self doubt/hate, but it can be worth it. You also get to see things that help the pain get explained/understood. Seeing your Ws pain over choosing this destructive path can help you feel better about it. It is easier to see it was HER issues that brought you here. You need to realize these events are all about your W and her issues. Read that again. There will be M issues, on both sides, that should be addressed, but that needs to come later. If you can't see a way to R with your W there really isn't any point in wading into that. KWIM ?

Anyway. That is all I have right now. Take care man. We are here if need someone to talk to.

Just because you've invested a lot in Edith doesn't make her a good investment. Now she "posts poorly" and shows you remorse "in her way" by sleeping with you. But you just know there is a remorseful creature in there somewhere... it's mute for some unknown reason, but you just know it's there. She won the lottery with you, np. I really hope you raise your standards someday. The simplest explanation is that your wife is unable to articulate her remorse because it's not there.

Kamichi, do you have a thing against me? I laughed at the part about becoming extinct--you do have a sense of humor, though it is dark. No, I am a survivor. Rarely, do I lose. I am tenacious and work unceasingly towards my goals. Not to say I don't go through hell on the way, but that's me. Usually I make a win a win-win for people with me, if possible.

I liked that quote myself too :) My post did come off much harsher that it should have

There is a funny quote I remember from some time back

"I don’t want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member." - Groucho Max

That is your wife. She will cheat again if you get back together again and she feels safe in the marriage again. Then she loses respect for you . The only way you can keep her from not cheating is to continuously keeping her on the edge with the threat of you divorcing and leaving her. You cannot have an intimate relationship in such a situation where you have to keep playing games with her..

She does not respect you one bit. Right now is only scared that she might lose what she has now and she is scared of the unknown. Don't mistake it for love for you or respect for you. She is a broken person. Her brain does not work like yours. She does not feel the same towards you as you you feel towards her.

Would you want your daughters to get together with someone like your wife ? She even turned them against you...She made you write a letter begging the OM to leave your wife alone..Isn't it as emasculating as it can get ?

[This message edited by kimichi at 12:21 PM, May 13th (Wednesday)]

NO5, I understand where you're coming from and your desire to continue on the current path. We're here for you on this path and we'll continue to support you and help you!

Are there any specific things/advice you want from us at the moment? How can we most help you, your marriage and your family at the moment?

Have you two googled "How to help your spouse heal pdf linda macdonald"? It's a great book available online for free, it might help you tremendously.

Best wishes

It sounds like she has a history of extracurricular activities, which includes music class. Did the poly include how many additional boyfriends that she may have had within these organizations?

It doesn't sound like she's prone to the truth (you basically had to drive her to a polygraph for Christ's sake) nor is really that in love with you, so my gut is that this was her first time at the rodeo so to say.

NP5, please remember that BOTH of you need full STD tests now that at least one PA has been confirmed. I know you refuse to leave her. I wish you luck. You have been stuck in the damage control/desperate to save your family mode for over two years. Two years is a long time to lie and blame your spouse for your choice to have sex with at least one other man. And we both know OM would not be still sniffing around this past Feb after only having sex with her once in August. My WS and I went through a very long honeymoon phase after the last of the lies were revealed but R is long and gets harder AFTER that damage control mode is switched off and you have to start living with this person that hurt you. Stay in IC. I have a feeling you're going to need it.

eric,

She passed the poly on the "other men" question. The music man was just the perfect storm for her.

Hobbes, I gave that to her that long ago while she was in the affair. She has reread it and moved from 3) Kill the marriage by default to 5) Actively do all you can to help your spouse.

What I'm concerned about is that she won't hang in there and make it a habit. She's been in 5) for a few days. I'm expecting much more here than just her stopping the affair. She needs to show me how she has dealt with her resentment for past things which she has harbored and even cherished in her heart. This resentment fueled anger and put a wedge between us where she became susceptible to another man's advances, and even encouraged them. I am responsible for some of the resentment. I am not responsible for her holding onto it and using it as an excuse to cheat on me.

If she feels I need to change my behavior or respect a boundary, it is her right and even her obligation for the good of the family to address it with me. What she shouldn't do is to hold on to it in her heart, to build a list of wrongs with which to beat upon me when she wants her way about something or exert power in our marriage. I will not be married any more to someone who will do that to me. Or cheat on me.

Regarding being codependent--I am not. I'm the opposite. I am a pleaser and I had no boundaries and she lost respect for me and took advantage of me. That was my fatal flaw. She also had poor boundaries and I took advantage of her, though not as badly.

Why am I posting all this? On 5/5/14 I thought I was going crazy and that my wife was having an EA. She was and more.

I realized, as I building the timeline, that the exact time I joined SI, 5/5/2014 9:49:01 AM, my wife was with the OM. By the time I made my first post, they had already had sex once. I had such a long way to go.

Now the physical affair was over after 8/4. The EA continued until she sent the goodbye letter in March of this year. So the PA has been over twice as long than the PA existed. But Edith and I still have a long way to go. SI has been crucial in helping me focus on getting done what I needed to get done. Sadly for me, it was already to late by the time I joined. I didn't have a say in how it started. But I will have a say in how it ends.

ETA: We both had STD testing and both negative.

Thanks to you all for your comments and support.

NP5

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 1:25 PM, May 13th (Wednesday)]

np5, I like the sound of your last post. It sounds like you have a good perspective. I wish you and the WW the best.

I agree with Sal, your last post has a vibe of great strength, and I'm happy for you that you seem to be getting stronger!

I understand your concerns about the sustainability of her efforts in repairing/rebuilding the marriage. I guess time will tell. Have you talked to her about this concern? What did she say? Maybe you two could agree that maybe one day a week or every once in a while she should take time off from constantly thinking about improving the marriage, so she could take some time to replenish her energy. What I'm saying is I'm worried that if she'll be worried about it 24/7, she'll burn out.

Best wishes

Regarding being codependent--I am not. I'm the opposite. I am a pleaser and I had no boundaries

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick about what being codependent means. Probably a great avenue to look into in your healing.

[This message edited by eremite at 2:32 PM, May 13th (Wednesday)]

I realized, as I building the timeline, that the exact time I joined SI, 5/5/2014 9:49:01 AM, my wife was with the OM. By the time I made my first post, they had already had sex once. I had such a long way to go.

And that is what hurts the most and will hurt you for the longest time, the complete and total deception.

The longer your wife continues to blame shift as you look back at the deception, the angrier you are going to get.

Looking back at the times of sex when you thought it was simply an EA, is what hurts. The deception! And your wifes actions since this deception has been found out, is not helping R in any way at all.

Being a pleaser without boundaries is pretty much the quick simplified definition of codependent. You might want to revisit the idea with some credible resources. Most of your approach appears very very codependent.

NP - you just defined what CoD is. YOU are. Deny it as much as you want, but your actions and your choices are that of one who chooses to put others needs before their own well being.

You have done this since you started posting here.

Just as you are CoD your wife shows examples of NPD, always making it about her, and manipulating everyone around her.

Step back reevaluate your situation as an outsider. Look at it as your child acting in either role, what would you say or do? That will bring clarity quicker than anything.

We're all entitled to our opinions, but I'm always a little amazed at the tendency on this site to diagnose conditions that are not always easy for trained professionals to diagnose (even after examining someone in person), much less some random guy or lady from God-knows-where with who knows what kind of background posting their thoughts on an internet forum.

I agree with MC Jack at the top of the page. Let's leave the therapy and the diagnoses to those who get paid the big bucks to do those things.

As someone who has been through both IC and MC, I can say that there have been and are people on this site whom have provided me personally with insight, kicks in the ass, comfort, compassion and downright solid common sense straight up help. NP5 has benefited from much of that knowledge and experience. As have we all.

All that I can say is that your journey is ongoing. And that over time you will have many stages in which you firmly believe and know that you have 'got this' until you find out you don't. And if you hang in here, the people on this site are going to pick you back up and dust you off and set you back on the path. I think you have been around long enough to know who is going to give it to you straight. And piss you off. Whose experience and paying it forward is and will be a gift in the long run.

I also believe in having a strong third part MC in R. I also think that you have to shop around for one that meets with your idea of R. We got our recommendation from a member of SI who lives in our area. I still vetted her on the free 15 min. consult and made sure she aligned with Shirley Glass and her book "Not Just Friends". I was not going to walk into the buzz saw of 'put the past in the past and move on approach'. Do you consider your MC to be that strong 3rd party and does his/her approach match what you are looking for in R? I'm not asking to get an answer but to have you consider where you guys are at.

Your R will be your own. I think that there are basic tenets that we all end up following no matter how you start. As someone who took the long crappy way around, I don't think anyone can persuade you from your choices. That you make them from the best possible view from your perspective. Some will be great and some will have you circling around again. That's how R is.

To paraphrase another SIer- 'Some days in R are good and some days in R suck and this is one of them'.

I don't want to project on you but I was a huge part of my marriage breakdown. My weight. Obese type weight. And I never really believed that I didn't bring it on myself. A not so soft member here posted that if my H felt it ruined our relationship that meant he had the right to divorce me, but not cheat on me. My fat was a problem, a big one. But it didn't make a good man cheat, he did. And he was going to have to face that. My accepting the blame fed my co-dependency and his blameshifting. I feel like you are sort of in this sitch with the financial infidelity aspect... I think you 'know' that you didn't cause her cheating, but not sure you still don't feel responsible.

I don't know why you behave in the way that you do. I will say that I have some ideas... :) But I'll tell you one thing that will set you straight. The book 'Codependent No More' by Melody Beattie. I read that on a recommendation from someone else on this site and it opened up a whole new world to me about MY behavior.

Another that helped me very much was 'How to be an Adult in Relationships' by David Richo. It helped ME, so very much. It may not be your cup of tea, but it taught me the concept of mindfulness that has helped me in every area of my life.

Right now you have to deal with the affair. Its triage- most marriage threatening behavior first. Edith's resentments are not close to being a priority yet. Does she have the humility to step up and carry some weight and responsibility in R? Not wait around to be pushed and guided? I hope so. I believe that people can change. They can turn themselves and their relationships around. Time and effort will tell and for you and your families sake - I do hope that Edith is ready to roll up her sleeves and dig in with you.

One thing I have learned from my son's wrestling coach. "It's the adjustments that matter". He said that all the time. You can be aggressive and fail and be passive and fail... but it is how you adjust to what faces (you in the moment) that will tell the outcome.

Now that I got some beloved wrestling into a post. I will leave you be.

--edited to take out a members names. Not sure I can do that... and once a I start naming people the list is too long anyways......

[This message edited by redrock at 9:25 PM, May 13th (Wednesday)]

NP5

Keep moving forward.

You are getting there. And keep holding Edith accountable.

She not only deserves but needs tough love.

HM

Excellent post Redrock.

NP,

You can tell a thief that “you have stolen xyz, aren’t you ashamed of that. He will look to the ground and says I’m sorry”. However, if you call him a thief; he will get offended, snap, and attack you. Unfortunately, that’s human nature. We can go with other examples, but some people will get offended.

Edith is upset, well truth hurts. Could I have put the words in a better proper language, well it does not matter actions talk not words.

As I have said to you earlier (though I got banned) I was reading someone’s thread and the post of Edith draw my attention. I was not sure that she is your WW, and that’s why I went and read all her threads to conform it.

[edited by SI Staff]

NP I’m trying to help, not to wreck your marriage, your WW has a lot of issues that she needs to resolve. People here said that you are weak; but you are not to be blamed for your love to your wife. Have faith in yourself for the sake of your children and take control of your life.

I will no comment on her posting anymore, but I would appreciate the thoughts of others.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:28 AM, May 14th (Thursday)]

NP5, I want to share a little of my experience with you. You have been through the wringer no doubt about it. My story has similarities to yours. I think the biggest difference is I didn't find SI until after the final DDay so a lot of the advice I got was based on where we were then, not the previous stuff that had happened.

My FWH was a serial cheater. "Small" stuff over the years that was mostly rug-swept leading up to the 13 month full-fledged EA/PA that about killed my soul. I found out at about the 6 month mark. I had the promises given, the "I'm so sorry", the tears, etc. But he never stopped. I found out 3 more times over the next 6 months. We were in MC during the last 2 months that he was full-fledged in the A. He lied repeatedly. To me. In MC. To everyone. But he never once stopped contact or even tried to during that time period. I had to see his OW frequently. I thought she was just so depraved, so selfish and without morals or conscience that she kept coming around. She was. But so was he because he told her to. He wanted to at least be able to see her even if he couldn't talk to her. He wanted her to hear him play guitar. He made me feel like I was the unreasonable one, that I should just get over it and stop making everyone else uncomfortable. He was an awful, selfish person during that time period. I would go so far as to say monstrous. There was no thought for me or anyone else but himsef. Not even for his OW. They helped each other behave as uncaring, selfish people. Validated each other and their actions. Anyone with half a brain was telling me to run. Run fast and don't look back. It all blew up on the final dday and he left. Perspective is funny because I will tell you I kicked him out. In his mind, he decided to leave. It didn't last long. He had an epiphany not long after he left and came home begging for one more chance.

It sounds ridiculous. "He had an epiphany". So what? After all he had done to me, to us, to our M. Who cares that he had an epiphany? But I listened. And he came clean. About everything. All the lies. All the secret ways they had to communicate. Everything. And from there we began to heal. Now I will tell you his idea of healing was "I'm not cheating anymore, i won't again so now everything is good". It doesn't and didn't work that way obviously. It has been a slow process. But it has moved forward. He has had to do a lot of work on himself, dig very deep and look at the person he had become. A person neither of us liked. He has given up things and people that were very important to him because they weren't healthy for us. There have been times when I didn't think we were going to make it. That he wasn't going to get it. That his selfish thinking and bad habits were too ingrained. But so far we have. And he is truly a different person in many ways today. We are 16 months out and there is still work and healing to be done but the progress is amazing when I look back at where we were.

I wanted to give you an idea of the journey we have been tthrough because I see similarities in our situations. My FWH did monstrous, hideous, unforgivable things to me and our M in the name of making himself feel good. I took it. I cried and I begged and I protested but I took it. We are both different now and still changing. I am stronger and know to my core what I am worth. I will never accept less than what I am worth again. There is no doubt in my mind that if he ever reverted to any of his previous behavior (and I don't just mean the cheating, I mean over all selfishness, disengagement, etc) that I would walk away and be ok.

People can change if they want to. It is hard, painful and a long, long process. But they can change. The key is being able to recognize when the desire to change is sincere. It won't happen all at once. And it is less in their words than in their actions. If you want to give Edith a chance to be more, to grow, to become a safe, loving, honest partner then I will tell you it can happen. Just know it is a hard journey for both of you. And there are no guarantees. Approach it with caution and watch with wide open eyes.

I am so sorry you are here and I wish you all the luck in the world.

[This message edited by Christy516 at 11:19 AM, May 14th (Thursday)]