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Craig just gave you good advice. If you are not reading and intercepting any and all of her communication then you are flying in the dark without radar .

Allatsea also gives you good advice to concentrate on you and either getting your WW back in the marriage or getting rid of her and stop trying to analyze every aspect's effect on your son. It can't be good to see his father getting disrespected like this daily. Kids are resilient and survive divorce millions of time and come out fine.

Lease read IU Hoosiers thread. He may still have to ad his wife but he in two weeks has made the decision that she will not have a boyfriend and be married to him and by serving the papers there is no doubt in her mind he is serious.

You will never solve this as long as she can go to his house with impunity, have sex with him, and walk back into your house.only you can stop that.

You will feel better when you do that

BS ONLY

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:48 AM, June 2nd (Monday)]

Saveus - As a veteran, I see you deing indecisive, and failing to demand what you need, deserve, and should have for one reason only.

Fear of losing her. What you are failing to see is that you have already lost her. The wife, the Marriage, the relationship that you believed in is no more. They are all dead. If you hope to rebuild to anything resembling a healthy somewhat normal M then you absolutely have to start demanding the things you would expect from any other human being that you would open your heart to.

Honesty

Transparency

Respect

NC with anyone who does not support you and your M.

These are essentially the same basic things we expect from our friends and family. Do NOT allow fear to drive your decisions. The only people that will hurt is you and your son.

Your son deserves one healthy parent that can give him some semblance of normal, and right now his mother is the last person in the world capable of that.

Thanks as ever for the latest advice. This is just a quick update.

My WW had yesterday off. Due to the weather/our poor finances her Plan A for taking our DS out was put on hold. When I left for work, she was very flat. We had a brief chat in the morning but nothing new or where I was making any headway.

As luck would have it, my cousin texted my WW asking if she wanted to meet up with her and lots of other (of my) family. I'm surprised my WW went, the mood she's in (she's well known as the life & soul of the party, so this hardly goes unnoticed), but glad she did. After work I went round another cousin's, where I knew she'd be, to see if she wanted a lift home. (Many times in the past my WW has criticised me - somewhat fairly - for not making an effort and popping in to see family). Last night my WW was surprised to see me (but not in a good way - she said later she thought I was checking up on her), sat on my cousin's sofa looking like she had the weight of the world on her shoulders.

Once I'd put our boy to bed, I demanded we talked (she'd already tried telling me she wasn't prepared to talk last night). We didn't get very far. It didn't descend into an argument but it was like getting blood out of a stone (again) so I got frustrated and found myself giving her a few home truths. I know, a complete waste of time and energy. In the end, very calmly, I told her that I wanted the woman I remembered but the one sitting on our sofa there and then I DIDN'T want - I came right out and told her, 'I don't want you'. I then added that that was it - I had no intention of trying to talk to her ever again. And I meant it. Whether I can stick to it, only time will tell... It's VERY hard.

So, anyway, this morning I decided it was high time I snooped again. I told her I wouldn't as I WANT desperately to trust her but, through her actions and behaviour, I simply can't. She's giving me precisely NOTHING. I was petrified of what I would find as anything of a sexual nature and I swear I would be filing this morning. But there was nothing. Well, oodles of sickening teenage romantic crap FROM HIM TO HER along the lines of, 'I miss you my princess' - pass me the bucket. But no sign of anything back from her since last Tuesday when she tells me she finished with him once and for all. Nor were there any signs of other contact, e.g. the OM saying it was great to hear from her etc. So, it's far from scientific, I know that, but there was nothing to show she has contacted HIM in the last week or so.

My plan today is to finish off my list of boundaries and consequences. I'm going to write it in letter form for her. It just may not get 'delivered' today as I am at home until my WW finishes work late morning, then I am going to work myself. I WILL be doing this as - believe it or not - I am now prepared to make demands I know she will refuse in the full knowledge that I am then going to HAVE to follow through and start divorce proceedings.

Believe me, I know I have to do this. I have no evidence she is contacting him (though he is contacting her, right up to date) but I can tell you my gut is telling me nothing has changed. She is here in body but not in mind.

And I cannot go on like this.

Well, oodles of sickening teenage romantic crap FROM HIM TO HER along the lines of, 'I miss you my princess' - pass me the bucket. But no sign of anything back from her since last Tuesday when she tells me she finished with him once and for all. Nor were there any signs of other contact, e.g. the OM saying it was great to hear from her etc.

Changing her phone number should be on the list. That way she will not be able to read texts from him or have him pull her in at a weak moment. What starts as one non-descript response can quickly escalate into a return to the affair. NC letter, change her number.

The fact that you find contact from him to her, and nothing from her to him makes me believe that she probably is sticking to NC on her end at least for the time being.

I would bet she is white knuckling it a bit, and will reach out when she finds herself hurting, or scared. Meaning like last night when you said I don't want you as the woman you are today.

If she is willing to play along then you must insist on NC, and blocking his numbers, and her email from him. Also social media FB, Twitter, all of it.

You should not feel guilty for feeling the need to snoop, and she should NEVER make you promise that you won't. When a WS truly gets it, they almost embrace snooping, because when you snoop and you find nothing it helps to rebuild the trust. AS a R'd vet that is 5+ years out, I can tell you my H still welcomes me using his phone, his tablet, and the whole entire family shares a computer, with all of us using the same password for our individual profiles. (We have teens, and the best way to keep them from doing something stupid on the World Wide Web is letting them know Mom and Dad are watching. but I digress).

You are finding your strength. That's good. When you find your anger, you will really start making some changes. Don't be frustrated that you haven't yet. We all reach our breaking point at different times. But don't ever accept less than you deserve.

(((and strength))))

Her sitting on the couch like that is withdrawal from the OM and the affair...most likely.

Stop telling you are looking or snooping and or stop telling you will not snoop or look.

You really have no idea what game they are up to. If the OM and she knows you are probably looking, anything that you see is a game aimed right at you!

Since the OM knows you are reading this stuff, for all you know he is texting this stuff to make you mad at her and get into a fight, so she can leave and run to him. Change the number today.

Change her phone number today and or block him from ever being able to text or call her again.

Affairs are hard to withdraw from and having her see his constant texts is like putting a can of beer in front of an alcoholic telling that person they cannot touch that beer.

Get the OM the hell out of your and her life, today.

What you need to get through to her is that the need to talk is right now. You can wait till hell freezes over when she is finally prepared to talk...because that day will never come.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 9:12 AM, May 29th (Thursday)]

Well that resolve lasted long. Tried to get through to her again tonight. Ended in a bit of a (fairly minor) row. She put her walls up and fired back with various bits of nonsense that I couldn't let pass without comment... and on around the circle we went again.

I'm starting to think of taking myself off for a few days. Not in a 'leaving her' way - I've repeatedly made it clear I am never walking away as I have done nothing wrong - but I think it would shock her. Though I would miss my boy and hope she wouldn't undermine me by putting him in the middle. Perhaps I should leave my list of boundaries & consequences in the kitchen and just go away, phone off. Give her a few days to mull them - and us - over.

P.S. During our 'discussion' I drove home my demand for NC including FROM him. I even told her she'd have to change her number, and she actually didn't argue. But I'm not counting my chickens yet. This is Mrs Saveus we're talking about...

I drove home my demand for NC including FROM him.

Why from him? And what will you do if he doesn't agree to not contacting your WW? NC letter from him means diddly squat when his aim was/is to have your WW as his. It's like telling someone to bow out of the auction because you want what's going under the hammer. The NC must come from her. She's the one that matters; he can go and slit his throat for all you care.

You can only give consequences (and carry them through) to your rules for reconciliation. If your WW writes a NC letter, only she can decide whether or not she is going to stick to it. If she really wants OM out of her life, she should get a solicitor to write it and to include that the police will charge him under the harassment laws if he does not comply.

You cannot control her, or OM's choices. You can only control your responses to them. It should be very, very clear that you will not stay married to her if she continues contact with OM. And she must also change her number so he isn't able to contact her. She has to choose. And tell OM she has chosen you and it's over.

ETA. fWH sent a solicitor's letter to MOW. If you want a copy, I can PM it to you.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 5:24 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]

I drove home my demand for NC including FROM him.

Saveus, this round and round and round will continue for years unless you change the situation. Because it is starting to look like your wife is not going to do anything at all to help.

She seems to be enjoying the attention this whole thing has given her.

You ask her to change her number and what will happen if she doesn't? Nothing, you will demand she do it again and round and round it goes.

You do need to do some serious thinking about how to break this stalemate, because that is exactly what this is, a stalemate. And you could end up this being your life for the next several years.

I would say, if she does not have her number changed by tomorrow, that will tell you she is not serious about anything and all she wants is the OM's attention and your attention.

Thanks UKgirl/craig2001 but I may have confused you... I didn't mean I'd spoken to the OM and demanded he stopped contacting my WW. I meant I'd made it clear that communication FROM him to her meant the A was still ongoing, as far as I was concerned, and she'd better do something about it e.g. change her number.

I couldn't care less about the OM, much less about trying to control his actions - I am focusing 100% on my WW. UKgirl, yes please, I'd like to see that letter - thanks.

I agree about the stalemate however I did say what I would do, namely start divorce proceedings. You're just going to have to trust me on that - I haven't QUITE been tipped over the edge yet. I would just like to have got that boundaries/consequences letter to my WW before it gets to that, and it's been very difficult finding time to think what with trying to work and look after our DS while he's off school.

She is going out tonight, apparently with friends. I HAVE to get those boundaries across to her today, loud & clear, before she does anything stupid...

[This message edited by saveus at 11:47 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]

Oh, I see. My misinterpretation. Well, only a formal letter of NC could stop him contacting her - even then he may not give up. And it would be difficult to enforce if your WW is physically in the same place at the same time due to the fact you are all local and have a joint social interest.

She has to want to end the affair. She has to want the marriage. Bottom line.

saveus -

im going to deliver my first 2x4. please dont take it as a personal attack, its not meant that way.

you are talking to her alot and keep drawing lines in the sand that she more or less just ignores. this loses you serious credibility that when it comes down to it will be very difficult, if not impossible, for you to regain. if you draw a line then you need to enforce it. period. you NEED to PUSH HER OFF THAT FENCE. post haste .... as in quite awhile ago. the longer she is on that fence the worse off it is for you and any chance of saving your relationship.

as an example:

your discussion of changing her number was good. you more adequately explained what no contact means - thats important because many WS have their head so far up their rectum coming out of an affair that it really needs to be spelled out in minute detail. no contact doesnt just mean she doesnt see/call/email/text/etc him, it also means changing every means of contact that he can use to contact her so that he CANT do it. he doesnt give a toss about you and has no problems F'ing your wife behind your back or even with you knowing (that level of disrespect from him towards you is incredible - but i digress).

however, where you failed to push her off that fence was in getting her to do it THEN. at that moment. call her service provider. find out how hard it is to change a number. find out what she needs to do to change the number. then talk to her. at the end of the call tell her exactly how to change her number. tell her that you expect it to be done. you arent asking. you arent begging. she can either chose her lies, her secrets, her affairs or she can choose you, her son, her marriage, and honesty. its a simple choice. you expect her to make it. NOW.

note - i dont say you should say "do it or i move out ASAP" or "i file for divorce immediately", those kinds of sentences paint you into a corner.

but if you dont push her and push her hard and fast you are going to remain exactly where you are now or wind up even worse off.

im telling you this from personal experience. if you arent willing to lose the marriage you have zero chance of saving it.

Absolutely UKgirl. Everything can be undermined by my WW hence why I've not confronted the OM or told him I'd go to the police if he kept harassing her etc. All completely pointless.

I have just drafted my first 'boundaries' letter to my WW, in which I demand everything I've been too scared to so far - full NC/transparency etc. Also the fact that we are GOING to deal with the club problem. Only last night my WW said, 'oh well he's probably going to move [clubs] anyway', as if it is in any acceptable that we sit around waiting. Well, not any more.

Thanks william. You've highlighted room for improvement. You're dead right. Make things a fait accompli, don't leave her any wriggle room, is what you're saying. I can assure you however that the letter I've drafted DEMANDS things like her number being changed, in no uncertain terms.

She text me on her way to work this morning, basically sounding helpless like she doesn't know HOW to move forward (I made it clear last night she has us in complete limbo - there is NO improvement from one day to the next). Here are the 'highlights':-

I don't understand why I can't seem to pull myself out of this!? I'm feeling that deep down we will never get past this!

...plus lots more sentences starting with 'I'. It ends with I hate the way it makes me feel

You could say I have my work cut out.

One more thing - I AM prepared to lose the M to save it. But I will say this - I feel like this has been going on for YEARS, then I look back at page 1 of this thread...

I may well post up my letter here so you all can tell me where I'm going wrong.

Hi saveus. Wanted to pop my head in for a sec and see how you were doing. Looks like you may be moving forward since last I had a chance to look. This is good news. And you continue to get excellent advice for the others.

She text me on her way to work this morning, basically sounding helpless like she doesn't know HOW to move forward (I made it clear last night she has us in complete limbo - there is NO improvement from one day to the next).

Hopefully this leaves the door open for you to now "run the show". As in these are the things we have to do get better and heal as a couple. These are the things I need with this letter that you give her. There has to be NC, IC, all that.

Take her hand and lead the way. Let her know that if she lets go of your hand and does not follow your lead out of this mess that she created, there will be consequences and stick to them. T

This may be another opportunity for you. Don't blow this chance. I can see that you are getting stronger every day. Use that strength.

yop

She is going out tonight, apparently with friends. I HAVE to get those boundaries across to her today, loud & clear, before she does anything stupid...

First of all did you make sure she was where she said she was going to be???

Actually I don't know what you meany by tonight...you mean Friday night. If so, make sure, follow her, do whatever it takes. You have been doing everything in the dark. You cannot make any decisions while not knowing.

And how nice of her to be able to go out. She seems to be having a very hard time deciding how to live her marriage, but going out to have a good time is no problem. Something is not right about that.

A person facing a huge dilemma, facing divorce, usually does not feel like going out for a good time.

Second of all, you are not going to get through to her. Words do not matter to her. Idle threats do not matter to her. Only your actions are going to matter.

I don't like to be negative, but going out with the girls tonight...At least a 50/50 chance she is going to see and be with the OM.

You need to know 100% for sure.

I don't understand why I can't seem to pull myself out of this!? I'm feeling that deep down we will never get past this!

Time delaying excuses. The IDK how we will get past this. She hasn't done anything that I know of to even try to get past this.

She never wants to make a decision and stick with it, she never wants to discuss this in a mature manner. She refuses to change her phone number...yes refuses or she would have done it by now. And she wants to go out with the girls and have a good time instead of working on it.

Not to mention, has she even tried to discuss her previous affair with you other than dropping that bomb on you in a public place.

Saveus

Looks like you are moving forward but I agree with Craig. She is causing you unbelievable pain and still is going for a girls night out. To a bar I assume. So I hope we don't read that she got drunk and upset and wound up at his house while you are sitting home.