SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Feb -

I'm not an expert, I'm not an SI vetern, I did not even get the chance to attempt R so my view may be flawed. However, for what they are worth, my thoughts.

First: There is NO acceptable excuse for having an affair. NONE. Stop making them for her.

Your WW is lazy (maybe it's depression?). Whatever the reason, she has learned from past experience that when things get rough for her she can just check out and you will pick up the slack. Her job is stressfull? You get the lunches made and kids ready for school. She doesn't like hockey? You take all 3 children to the rink. Kids are behaving like kids? You look after things so she can ride her bike.

Now she has created the toughest possible scenerio of all. Her riding group doesn't want her, people are mad, her husband has been hurt and will not allow it to continue happening...and she is too lazy to fix it. She is waiting for you to step in and make it better.

Your WW needs to be forced to wake up and face reality. Real parents parent 24/7. Through the early mornings at the rink and the snot and fights and tears - not just for the family portrait moments. Real spouses are committed to their marriage - for the laughter and the love, and for the stressfull times, the boring times, the sleepless "I hate this" times.

The thing is - you CAN'T fix this. She made the mess and she is the only one who can really clean it up. You can move the furniture around so you don't have to really look at the mess. You can put something on top of it to hide it, but it will still be there. She is the only one who can really clean it up. She is going to have to get off her lazy ass, get out of the pity puddle and do the work herself. It may be that her first step should be to see a doctor, but again: only she can make that step.

What I am seeing is that you are continuing to enable her behaviour. Think about this: She didn't want to get out of bed this morning, so you made the lunches. Did she make lunches those days after dday when you were wishing the world would just go away? You are justifying her behaviour based on her "bad" job, her stressfull kids. Really?! Have you never had a bad day at work? The last time the kids had an argument on your watch did you whip off your pants and f@ck the closest available vagina?

Finally, some thoughts on your children. I know you are hurting for them and worried. As a mom who has held her DD through more versions of hell than any kid should have to go through, I have learned this: kids are strong. When they know what they are dealing with and they have some solid coping tools, they will be ok. Really.

Your children know that something is going on. They might not know what, yet, but that just means that they are imagining all kinds of scenerios in their heads. They need to know. It can be a simplified version. But not a sugar coated one. Don't beat around the bush. That only leaves room for them to fill in the blanks with their imaginations. Tell them the truth. Then provide them with the tools they will need to get through this. You are one. Books, a councellor, the knowledge that it's ok to be sad, mad, scared - all are good. A safe place, hugs, maybe a punching bag.

Ok, end of lecture. Hang in there Feb. I, like the rest of SI are rooting for you. I would love to see one of the "good guys" win.

[This message edited by Standing-Still at 1:32 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

Feb,

Looks like some members here feel your wife might be really depressed. Only you know what is going on in your house.

If depression is the case, do you think it is really a good thing to move out (even temporarily)? Leaving her alone with the kids (right or wrong) might be enough to push her farther over the edge.

I know the 180 is highly suggested but I think the well being of your children should be considered in the process too. I know you know this. I just felt the need to point it out, I would to a real life friend as well.

If you look at the affair(s) as self medicating due to clinincal depression maybe a softer approach is needed. If you look at it another way she could be screaming out for help at the moment.

I never stopped making the lunches, even ON D-Day.

I will talk to my children today...and then go to my sister's.

Feb,

Looks like some members here feel your wife might be really depressed. Only you know what is going on in your house.

If depression is the case, do you think it is really a good thing to move out (even temporarily)? Leaving her alone with the kids (right or wrong) might be enough to push her farther over the edge.

I know the 180 is highly suggested but I think the well being of your children should be considered in the process too. I know you know this. I just felt the need to point it out, I would to a real life friend as well.

If you look at the affair(s) as self medicating due to clinincal depression maybe a softer approach is needed. If you look at it another way she could be screaming out for help at the moment.

Okay, now I need to think some more...if I go to my sister's and she practically drags me back home (figuratively on the phone), than I can insist she go to a doctor and/or counselling, right?

My kids come first...I will never endanger them...remember, her mom (MIL) is there too.

I didn't read the last cpl. I teared up as I could almost hear your desperation as to how to talk to your baby girl. I am so sorry.

For her, you sit her on your lap, put your arms around her (this reassures all kids, BUT ESPECIALLY LITTLE GIRLS) and hug on her kiss on her cheeks and tel her for the next cpl nights you are gonna sleep over at aunt xxx house. She will ask why and you tell her b/c you and aunt xxx need to talk about some things and she is helping you. If she asks you what, just tell her adult mommy and daddy stuff. She is young enough that she won't really be able to ask other questions. If she cries, that is ok. Hug her, and reassure her it is not for ever, but you need her help and it is super duper important.

FEB: It is ok for your kids to see tears and see you cry. YOu just hug them and reassure them that the tears are b/c you love them soooooo much. Tell them that when they grow up and they are mommies or daddies, they will cry sometimes too, and that just means they love their kids and their families. But you can also hug on them and tell them that sometimes life is hard for adults. We have lots of hard decisions and choices we have to make for us and for our families adn you are trying to get help b/c you don't want to make the wrong decisions.

It is ok to tell our kids that life is hard. That sometimes we mess up. That teaches them trust and that they can depend on you b/c you are human.

As far as what everyone (myself is saying) about WW:

My gut says, you totally get what we are saying but you are now on the edge and see your fear of what will do to kids???? Am I right?? You are so scared b/c if this backfires, or doesn't work the way you want, this or this may happen TO THE KIDS????? and that is your biggest fear, as a great dad.

BUT, the hardest part for me to accept in the last year, is that I CANNOT CONTROL the outcome nor can I control his choices (my FWH). Only they can. ALl you can do is make choices for you and your children to have the best, most stable life possible. It sucks. BUt it is the ultimate acceptance. You can't control her or the outcome.

I do think you need to have the discussion (not a pat her on the head talk) but a sit at the kitchen table discussion where you lay out the MINIMUM requirements . If these are for you to move back in and sleep in a guest room , if this is for you to not file papers, whatever it is, specifiy and lay it out for her, plainly and simply. Personally I would also put a timeline on things like seeing a therapist, and seeing a dr. for AD's.

My heart is breaking for you, but I will totally honestly tell you that after the first conversation with my kids, things were a LITTLE easier, only b/c the talk was over. Yes, they needed more hugs and more lap sitting for my DS7, bedtime stories, picnics, etc... BUT, they knew we loved them and we never lied to them. My DD even says now that she knows we wouldn't do that.

((((FEB))))

For a kid, a "cpl nights" is inconclusive, so don't be afraid of using this. If they ask later on when you will be back home, just say in a pl more nights.

Feb,

Why does her going to counselling have to be a condition of YOUR being there?

Everything in me is screaming to tell you DO NOT LEAVE your children with THAT WOMAN. I don't CARE that your MIL is there.

I would tell WW straight up: "You're a dangerous influence on our children. Your choices over the past XX months have had a direct negative impact on our the development of our children's mental health.

If you wish to stay in THIS house, you must seek treatment, like, yesterday."

I would actually advocate you having an appointment scheduled FOR her.

YOU must advocate for the welfare of your children. She ain't thinking twice about them. She can SAY she is but what are her ACTIONS showing you?

Okay, now I need to think some more...if I go to my sister's and she practically drags me back home (figuratively on the phone), than I can insist she go to a doctor and/or counselling, right?

I think you should insist on this regardless. I have no doubt she loves her children, but if she is not really capable of parenting right now, I don't think your MIL being there really matters.

Feb......is your WW remorseful for what she has done to you and your marriage? Or is she regretful? Big difference!!

Without your conditions, what has she offered to do to fix this cluster f**k?

[This message edited by toby at 1:52 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

Everything in me is screaming to tell you DO NOT LEAVE your children with THAT WOMAN. I don't CARE that your MIL is there.

Feb,

Just from what you have wrote I so agree with the above quote.

You can always leave later if you want. But if you stay your kids still have YOU in the house. I am still hoping that you never end up moving out.

I couldn't imagine leaving my kids with FWH soon after d-day or even the months following. He was not himself.

Feb,

I agree totally with Ineed.

If you leave you are hoping this will shock her into some reality.

What if it doesn't and you find out your kids are miserable?

What is your next step?

Go slow and see what happens over the next couple of days.

Feb.

I, too, have three. DS11, DS8, and DD4.

Many of the things you are going through are similar to my experience. (I hope not all- the VAR advice earlier is from that)

It took D and two years post A for my xww to start looking in the mirror and begin addressing her problems. She has a long way to go.

We have shared half time custody. She has old marital home. It took her four months for kid time at mom's to become kid's time with mom. xMIL was instrumental in this- rarely left xww home alone with kids for extended periods despite turning on me to support daughter (blood thicker thing).

My belief was- those babies needed their mom and eventually she would invest back into them. It came to fruition.

I also said- I will not stay just for kids. I will stay for marriage but she needed to step up and commit to fixing herself and the relationship. She tried to call my bluff and use my love for the kids to her advantage. Do not allow this.

I have taken huge strides, continue healing on my own, and have been moving forward since D-day and since the divorce. It was the D that pulled her out of the fog for real. It was me moving forward without her that has eventually led to her baby steps in personal repair.

She must continue, for the littles, for herself, and, as she has stated, for us.

She knows I will not compromise on what a relationship entails. That R cannot exist until she conforms to my list of demands. She also knows it probably is too late.

The kids weathered well, at first because of me and grand-ma. Later because of both of us and our commitment to the littles as co-parents. They still hurt, yes, but they now share with both of us (not just dad), feel safe in both environments, and know without a doubt they have two loving doting parents. It is possible.

Boy, this got long winded. PM me if you like. I can help with any questions you may have.

You are doing well, brother, despite the crazy that has been injected around your reality.

Q

For the life of me, I can't figure out why on earth you would leave.

If anyone should leave, it is your wife.

Leaving is not a wise choice. I understand the value of separation. A separation could be very good for you.

However, the message you are sending by leaving is not the right one. You (might be/are) willing to R in the family home. If she chooses not to be part of that family, then she can leave. This could potentially send the message that you are abandoning the family.

Ok Feb. here you go a sampling of quotes. Can I tell you from someone who still has scars on my back from trying to pick up and carry my wife to help; You can’t nice your way out of this. You can’t manage someone’s issues, you can’t make this any less traumatic on any party involved. Believe me I tried the only thing it got me was three months of continuous TT and “woes me I am sooo fucking depressed, please do everything for me while I have a pity party for myself.”

STOP BEING NICE TO HER TODAY.

Yes! You making it easier on her or thinking about her or MIL feeling is NOT going to help this situation in anyway. She needs to feel the full brunt of what your terms are and how life would be like without you.

Have you given her "that list" of demands for R??? Have you set your limitations??? Drawn that line in the dirt???

Did you clearly articulate this? Has she followed through on them, committed to them? If not FUCK family time for her. She gets no benefits from your relationship until she is all in with Both feet and a little I want to kiss your ass and thank my lucky starts Feb allows me I his life…

Bro....i know its a bitch, and you want your marriage back...BUT its gotta be on your terms...and its gonna take time...

She has alot of work to do BEFORE you let her back on the "bitch seat" (biker metaphor...as in Harley-Davidson)....KWIM?

R can be possible - but it TAKES alot of work and....time. Not tryin' to 2x4 ya, bro....methinks youre puttin' the wagon ahead of the horses...

.

I must say, you know when this is going to work? When your wife starts owning her shit. Right now she can’t even smell her shit yet, she want even get near it. In fact she thinks you’re the one who took the shit, her continued blameshifting and rationalizing demonstrates it……

From the WS’s healing library read this does this explain anything you see in your wife? If not, DON’T GIVE HER CAKE!!!!!

“Owning your shit means setting your pride aside and being blatantly honest with yourself, being accountable and taking full responsibility not only for the choices that you make but the consequences that come along with those choices without justifying, rationalizing, blame shifting or using self delusion to pacify your own conscious. We are extremely apt at talking about what So and So did to us and how what So and So did to us impacted our lives, hindered us from doing this or that BUT often we neglect to admit what WE contributed to our own situation. Owning our role does not take away from what the other person did but we can only control our actions. Focusing on our part is potent medicine because we are able to concentrate on that which we have the power to change: ourselves and our actions.

Only when we let go of our inner victim can we truly extract the lessons to be learned from our experiences. In being forthright and truthful, then and only then can positive change and personal growth occur. If you can't confront the hard naked truth about yourself, your choices and their consequences, then you're not truly taking ownership of your shit. When we fail to own our shit we don't just fail to be true to others, we fail to be true to ourselves and that is a failure that is certain to lead us down the path of destruction that we have walked at least one too many times already.

For me, the failure to be true to myself was the first betrayal on the destructive path I once walked, from there it was a treacherous downward spiral. Owning my shit allows me to steer clear of the path of self destruction. Owning my shit also helps me learn to love the person I see when I look into the mirror.

Feb, Your worth more! Don’t do what I did and carry your wifes water or attempt to make your marriage seem like it’s not already dead. Treat it like the corpse it is and move on. This only extended my pain and inhibited my healing aand my WW’s healing. If she wants to build a new marriage she can 1. OWN HER SHIT!, 2. Kiss your ass, and 3. Meet every term of R you articulate with desire and Radical honest ponto!

LHAP?

[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 2:31 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

While I do think WW should be the one to leave, that ain't happening. But...

If Feb doesn't follow through with his plans, threats, whatever...she is going to continue to walk all over him. She is counting on the fact that he won't leave the kids...

Staying at your sis's house doesn't mean 1) You don't love your kids, 2) you are walking away from your entire marriage, 3) it is permanent.

Unless WW is threatening physical harm to herself or the children...let her cope. She is their MOTHER. Let her be one. She is so used to you doing all the "mothering." She doesn't get to just be the fun parent...let her get her hands dirty.

I can't fault you for wanting family time...it is a grasp at the past. But as I have learned in the past 2 months...it is the PAST. You need to build a new present if you want to have any chance at a FUTURE. But if WW sees that things can go back to the way their were...she isn't going to learn a thing and will not have any motivation to change anything.

I agree. I think you leaving tells her in no uncertain terms that so far, things are not acceptable to you and you will not live this way. Period. It also forces her to look at what a future looks like if she doesn't get her shit together. Yes, MIL is there to help, but WW will have to figure out some things, will hopefully begin to see how much Feb is doing as far as taking care of the kids and supporting her and the family (both financialy but more than that, at home, emotionally, etc.). It is also a self esteem to Feb. to be around his sister, in a healthy situation while he decides what to do and thinks this stuff through. He isn't saying it is long term.

I do think, like I stated earlier, that a good sit down discussion, with you putting it out there what is required, timeline for said requirements and then getting up and leaving will have much more impact than whining, crying and carrying on in front of the kids (and that is what WW will do if he doesn't leave).

While I do think WW should be the one to leave, that ain't happening. But...

If Feb doesn't follow through with his plans, threats, whatever...she is going to continue to walk all over him. She is counting on the fact that he won't leave the kids...

Staying at your sis's house doesn't mean 1) You don't love your kids, 2) you are walking away from your entire marriage, 3) it is permanent.

Unless WW is threatening physical harm to herself or the children...let her cope. She is their MOTHER. Let her be one. She is so used to you doing all the "mothering." She doesn't get to just be the fun parent...let her get her hands dirty.

I can't fault you for wanting family time...it is a grasp at the past. But as I have learned in the past 2 months...it is the PAST. You need to build a new present if you want to have any chance at a FUTURE. But if WW sees that things can go back to the way their were...she isn't going to learn a thing and will not have any motivation to change anything.

I think I'm going with this advice.

Also, tomorrow, I plan to pick the kids up from school and take them to my sister's for the afternoon and evening. I will return them at bedtime.

Friday is my 7 year olds birthday party. I will be there.

And I am going to read the rest of page 28 again before I decide for sure...

I am not worried about physical harm...if I was I wouldn't allow her to stay home today with my daughter (kindergarten every other day - not today), so let her cope...she is use to me doing most of it.

Jiltedwife is correct...she won't leave. She has mentioned it a few times, but when it comes down to it, she hasn't gotten close.

FEB: It is ok for your kids to see tears and see you cry. YOu just hug them and reassure them that the tears are b/c you love them soooooo much. Tell them that when they grow up and they are mommies or daddies, they will cry sometimes too, and that just means they love their kids and their families.

That's good, because they are definitely going to see some tears.

I have to go now. I will possibly update later if my niece and nephew allow me to use their computer

[This message edited by Feb 8, 2011 at 3:20 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

My take, given the current situation:

IDEAL = WS leaves.

But, Feb going to sister's is not necessarily a bad second option.

Caveat being that Feb does NOTHING to help in any way deal with day-to-day children duties (unless a crisis, like an ER visit or something). When he spends time with them, it's FUN TIME! That's it.

No chatting it up with WS, no spending time with her (only the children). All other duties, chores, carting kids around, etc. fall on her...too bad hockey season ended

That'll help kick-start a little singledom reality for WS and give Feb some deserved leisure time -- I know you might be heavy-hearted and weighed down by your mind, but I suggest trying your best to take advantage of that opportunity to do something fun/nice for yourself.

And make sure she's aware of your M criteria and that if she initiates action in that direction, she should state so, make appointments, etc., and you will consider her moves accordingly.

Please don't move out until you talk to your lawyer.

It's hard to 180 while around her, but try for now. You really could fuck yourself if you do this without legal advice.

I would seriously ask her to move out if you need that separation time. She's not contributing anyway.

As for the short term. Take the kids to your sisters and turn your phone off. And your sister's phone off. You have the kids? She's got nothing to call you about. Let her have some time out. Her mom is there, so she's not alone.

As for the game of chicken with divorce and children? I know how terribly painful this is -- truly. I've been divorced twice and worked like hell to save both marriages. But I was the only one making those IC/MC appointments. You can't save a marriage by yourself. Or a family.

My son was 4 when I left his dad. He was 11 when I left XWH. Fear about how divorce and single parenthood would affect my child kept me paralyzed for too long -- and living through that hell and false R with a cheater was FAR more damaging than my single life before or since.

He's a wonderful kid -- resilient and because of the shit he's witnessed in his 13 years -- compassionate. Funny. Bright. Still open to love -- he gets on beautifully with my husband, a good man. I can finally model to him what it is to be in a healthy, reciprocal, loving relationship.

Divorce didn't kill him and it won't kill your kids either.

It is grossly unfair that you have been put in this position -- you who VALUE the marriage, who VALUE your children, have to be the person to consider divorce. (Because your WW, she prefers the cake lifestyle, clearly.)

All it takes is one sane, good parent and you're it. Your kids are going to be okay. Model strength to them. Value yourself. You wouldn't want any of them to go through the HELL you're going through, would you? Would you want your daughter to stay with a serial cheater? Someone who wasn't real sorry and once caught, hung out and felt depressed and sorry for himself? What would you tell HER?