SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't think it's ever a good idea to use children as pawns in game playing. There are some things that should be off limits when attempting to make someone squirm.

DG

What the MC is telling you is the worse is yet to come. Given that you have already trashed a hotel room and confronted the OM physically, these emails will send you over the edge.

As much as you think you are ready for these emails, you are not. Your WW is saying these are fantacy but they are not.

Her words will kill you. When you find out what she has done, it will send you to a whole new level.

I have been reading everything and taking it all in. It has not been great. I am not an idiot, but I am ill equipped for this reality. I have been going along thinking that I was dealing and handling and moving in a positive direction toward a predictable outcome; however, your predictions are in direct contradiction to my own. The 2x4’s have been nonstop. You guys have knocked the wind out of me. Some of the things you guys have said have really bothered me and I have been thinking about it a lot. You have put the fear of God in me and it has been a little unsettling. I have not been upset with you, but myself. I have this endgame and thought I was progressing nicely to a better place. I never considered WW might have an endgame of her own that might not be reconciliation. I acknowledge that, if this is the case, I have indeed played right into her hands if she is out to burn me. I do not consider myself a stupid person but I acknowledge the fact that I might have made some stupid mistakes.

From the beginning you guys hit me hard on the anger issue and so did all three attorneys. I curbed any exhibitions of anger when in the presence of WW except for a couple times when I blew. As for me, anger has never been a default emotional response to life's vicissitudes. I am well trained in experiencing and communicating emotions. Self-control has always been my pre-eminent response to pressure situations. I deal with the public, the customers are always right, etc., I have learned in business to allow the client to air their displeasures, get it off their chests, allow them to criticize, complain and unburden themselves and meanwhile, I maintain self-control, not buy into the drama and I usually have a successful outcome and maintain a good relationship with my clients.

Throughout this ordeal, the thing that has given me cold sweats has been my intense and overbearing desire to forgive and try to forget. I want to go back home and try and put this behind us. I have never stopped loving my wife with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. My weakness shakes me up. I have been more concerned with that than anything else. On any given day, at every given moment I have wished for strength to forgive and try to pick up the remnants of our life and see what we could make of it. This shakes me up more than anything you have said to me.

If I know my heart, my desire to know everything has gone through a metamorphosis. Firstly, I had a right to know why she did what she did. A need to know is probably a better statement. I needed to know why the ‘rug was pulled out from under my life.’ I needed to know why she stabbed me in the back. I was not just an innocent bystander. I was the intended victim, WHY? This might smack with being shamelessly melodramatic, however, this entire situation has been full of drama.

Yea, I am almost embarrassed to say that I was an emotional basket case when I signed on here; and although I have been accused of not taking advice, I do take issue with that. I have processed and taken on board much of what has been shared with me. More than you would know. Rightly, you have visited me with some powerful descriptive adjectives over the last few days and I would indeed be foolish not to see the validity in the truths you have stated. So much so that I have been stressing and obsessing over them these last several days. I have not known what to come back on here and say. I am without excuse, except to say that the only feeling that has worked for me has been anger. Really a sad commentary concerning me, but there it is.

My consolation was that I pictured myself on the road to eventual healing and emotional well-being. I never considered there could be a different ending. I did not consider this thing could end as it began; in deceit, treachery and despair. I have not even known how to come back to this forum and respond to these challenges. I do not believe you are 100% right, but I fear that you are. WW has already proven she is capable of deceptive behavior.

I stated that my desire to know everything has gone through a metamorphosis. I have gone from needing to know all the details for myself to needing to know these things for my girls. My situation, in my eyes went from the simple to the complex. I do not want them becoming more the casualties than they already are. I do not wish to become more the victim than I already am. I wish to remain the father and friend they have always known. That is paramount to me.

Ok, now I realize this may blow up in my face. I have contemplated this and I am ready to accept the consequences. This anger I encouraged and embraced might be two-faced, a double edged sword. I can see that now and I am shaken. I must remind myself, however, that without this anger I would be back with her this very moment. I remember early on when I was unleashing all my hurt and pain on her, she did not lash back, or make excuses. She sat there and wept and told me I had a right to say everything I was saying; that all my thoughts and feelings were valid. I apologized for losing it but she said, no, get it all out. I deserve it and it is good for you to get it all out. At that moment, I knew I was in imminent danger. I was perilously close to disarmament in the presence of my enemy; the one who had blown up my world. I was alarmingly close to holding and consoling her. Old habits die hard. I softened, it killed me to see her tears, and I wanted to take away her pain. I realized then and there that I had to keep a tight lid on these emotions because, once released, they put me in a position of vulnerability.

So I repeat, the one emotion that has worked for me, however, has been that of anger.

You are saying that, had I controlled my anger, I would not be in this fix. I am saying that, had I controlled my anger I would probably be in a worse fix; back with her. Back in the marriage; attempting to negotiate my way through a maze of emotions that I am ill equipped to handle and would probably end up blowing up in my face anyway. When I am angry, I do have to feel the humiliating emotions of fear, hurt and frustration. I suppose that, in a childlike fashion, I told myself, "This is great. As long as I retain this anger, I do not have to feel this pain!” I have never used anger as a cloak to cover my inadequacies, but I did find it useful in dealing with the love I have for my wife. Quite simply, my love was the enemy and anger was the only effective weapon in fighting that enemy. I do not expect many to understand this, I am confused myself. I can only say that anger does not flood my system with dopamine causing me to want to cuddle and hug. Quite the contrary, anger causes a fight or flight response and that has worked for me, and I have done a little of both.

I have a tendency of making a short story long. I've done it again. I had every intention of addressing your questions and thoughts. I will get to that a little later. I truly appreciate the thoughts and concerns you have sent my way and I recognize the wisdom that has come from your experiences. I would be a fool to contend. Thanks for being honest. Love hurts.

[This message edited by DoneGone at 10:13 AM, May 10th (Sunday)]

DG -- a BW here...

I believe there is such a thing as "righteous anger". It propels us to fix an injustice. Is your anger helpful in that way? Or is it just a distraction for you? And is it now causing you harm?

Anyway- the bottom line, in my opinion, is that there is no hope for a damaged marriage if there is not total and complete honesty from the WS. That is just the starting point in a long perilous trip forward. If she does not do that, then I believe it is hopeless and you should prepare to move on in your life without her. Regardless of whether you still 'love' her. You are killing yourself with staying in this situation. This is now about your survival. Please start a new life without her. There is hope in the future.

DG, (((man hug

I have no advice for you at this time. I just want you to know I truly do understand your last post. I understand the confusion, the anger, feeling like a beat man. We're here for you. Sending some strength.

DG

Please know that you were not the intended victim however. Her affair had nothing to do with you. That hurts in a different way- but it IS different.

There might be remorse there, but full honesty is necessary for R. Your wife doesn't understand that. I tend not to believe that this is some big evil master plan - it probably is, like the affair, a series of bad decisions that are taking on a life of their own.

Good post.

You have determined to divorce your wife. She has said that she fears that the two of you are over. The computer and phone contain more explicit expressions of her betrayal. So she cannot expect giving the passwords to lessen the possibiilty of divorce. She would be short sighted to not be thinking about the terms of divorce since that is now the likely outcome. That is not a further betrayal, just pragmatism.

MC maintains that separation increases the chances that a marriage will not survive. She argues that you are depriving yourself of the choice of reconcilation. Do you place any credence in that?

What are your feelings about reconciliation after divorce?

Do you want your wife to work?

Has idleness been a factor in her choosing to mess around behind your back?

Is there anything that you can say in defense of your wife's character?

Sometimes betrayed spouses say that they don't know the wayward anymore. Do you feel that way?

I've kept up with your story, but haven't commented much (if any). Others seemed to be doing a good job and you just kept right on not listening to them, not taking the advice, not heeding the warnings. What the hell, I did some of that, too, in my time on the chopping block.

Here we go!

I am not an idiot, but I am ill equipped for this reality.

This is true for all of us, I hope that you really believe what you wrote above.

Your wife is the enemy, right now. You persist in _not_ getting the information that you say that you want and need so desperately to make a decision. Fine. If you really, really wanted it you've been told how to get it. Over and over again.

Then you bring in your "promises", to yourself, her, and your daughters. You keep making up excuses _not_ to get the information. Which is understandable, to a point. That information is big and scary and you know what? You don't need it, not at all. You need air, water, food, shelter. You _want_ the info, but not enough to actually get it. Because then you'll feel forced to take some action and without it you can continually justify putting it off and continuing the drama that is going to kick your ass.

Stop doing this to yourself.

I have this endgame and thought I was progressing ... I never considered WW might have an endgame of her own that might not be reconciliation. I acknowledge that, if this is the case, I have indeed played right into her hands if she is out to burn me.

Let's see, you never considered that another person might have their own agenda? Really?

And then you say "if this is the case". It is most certainly the case. It is _definitely_the_case. I strike you with the 2x4 of Blindingly Obvious.

All of this and you say "if she is out to get me". Really? Each and every step that she's taken has been obviously "out to get you".

Look, you have a result that you want. She has a result that she wants. She's moving towards hers. You're spinning your wheels, waffling here, vacillating there, and now you're here waxing poetic on the vicissitudes of life and anger management.

Really? How is this moving you towards your goal?

I needed to know why she stabbed me in the back. I was not just an innocent bystander. I was the intended victim, WHY? This might smack with being shamelessly melodramatic, however, this entire situation has been full of drama.

You need air, water, food, shelter. Everything else is a want. You weren't the "intended victim", btw, she did what she did for her gratification, her own selfish desire to satisfy her wants, not as some grand gesture to victimize you. You're overstating your own importance in her thinking. You're being grandiose and melodramatic. And the fact that the whole situation has been full of drama does not excuse your adding to it, continually.

Quit making yourself into the hapless heroine here, the Nell strapped to the train tracks by Dishonest John, and simply do what needs to be done.

This is the 2x4 of Just Get It Done.

I have been accused of not taking advice, I do take issue with that.

I'm sure that you do. Do you have the passwords? No. Do you have a good MC? No. Are you continually setting yourself up to be victimized further by the WW, IC/MC, and possibly police? Yes.

The 2x4 of Face Reality has just been swung.

So I repeat, the one emotion that has worked for me, however, has been that of anger.

You are saying that, had I controlled my anger, I would not be in this fix. I am saying that, had I controlled my anger I would probably be in a worse fix; back with her.

And... now we start with the justifications. The "but, I'm really right" has just been laid out to us, by you. See the "I would probably"? No, you'd be exactly where you decided to be, which is where you are now. You've got your head in the noose, metaphorically speaking and you're both kicking at the chair and begging your enemy to pull it out from under you at the same time.

This is the 2x4 of What The Hell Are You Doing?

And then there's more justification and denial that "my actions, they have consequences!" Lots of melodramatic stuff. Congrats, you got me to read it all.

Look, DoneGone, you're anything but DoneGone. You ignore the ability to be DoneGone. You ignore the advice that would allow you to be DoneGone. Then you justify all of your mistakes, instead of just learning from them and protecting yourself, and go all dramatic and stuff.

Just stop it. That's all you really need to do, just stop what you're doing and then start doing the things that will allow you to start Surviving Infidelity.

If you can't control your anger, and I can understand that while knowing it is bad, then distance yourself from the source of your anger. Get a lawyer and let the lawyer deal with her. If you get so wrapped up in knowing all, then know this - you'll never know all. Just let it go, grab your balls to protect them, curl up, and go NC with your WW. Pull it all in, hands and feet inside the vehicle, roll up the windows, and start getting emotionally and mentally healthy.

Do this for your daughters if you won't do it for you. They don't need a Dad that they think is a mad, raging, wild, fool. When I finally got out of the house that I shared with xWW the kids noticed an immediate change in me. A change for the better. It doesn't matter who did what, they can _see_ what's going on. Let living be your testament.

That was the 2x4 of How To Handle This.

Good luck, I do wish you the best.

Bro-hug, DG!

I'm sorry if we were too hard with the 2x4s! I think most, if not all of us, spoke out of desire to alert you to the possible dangers, so you could proceed with appropriate caution.

I understand your desire to proceed with one more session and then to see what happens. Like others have said, I would recommend you don't come there with the devices.

Please, keep talking to us so we can continue to help and support you. What kind of advice&responses do you wish from us at this time?

Best wishes!

Laura215

I believe there is such a thing as "righteous anger". It propels us to fix an injustice. Is your anger helpful in that way? Or is it just a distraction for you? And is it now causing you harm?

A good question and if I understand it, my reply would be that my anger is not a distraction. I consider WW the distraction. I consider her emails, letters and text messages as distractions to stop me from reaching my necessary outcome.

LonelyLucas

I have no advice for you at this time. I just want you to know I truly do understand your last post. I understand the confusion, the anger, feeling like a beat man. We're here for you.

That means a lot, I feel like I have been standing in front of a firing squad.

Didact

There might be remorse there, but full honesty is necessary for R. Your wife doesn't understand that. I tend not to believe that this is some big evil master plan - it probably is, like the affair, a series of bad decisions that are taking on a life of their own.

There is remorse, but remorse cannot change the past. WW remorse cannot change the person I am. My worse struggle has been against myself.

LongWalk

You have determined to divorce your wife. She has said that she fears that the two of you are over. The computer and phone contain more explicit expressions of her betrayal. So she cannot expect giving the passwords to lessen the possibility of divorce.

WW stated in last MC that computer and phone be the end for her.

MC maintains that separation increases the chances that a marriage will not survive. She argues that you are depriving yourself of the choice of reconciliation. Do you place any credence in that?

I do. I deprive myself because I do not consider myself reconciliation material.

What are your feelings about reconciliation after divorce?

There is a possibility. If it was EA there is a good chance. However, and not to be crude, it she took that which belonged to me, and only to me and gave it to some swine. That would be different. My WW and myself had only been with each other. For her to throw that away would put reconciliation on a different planet.

Do you want your wife to work?

In the past, no. Was not necessary.

[This message edited by DoneGone at 11:27 AM, May 10th (Sunday)]

DoneGone

Again and again you have told us you want a divorce and no matter what was on the computer, what came out of MC and no matter what your WW said you were determined to divorce. Many of us have suggested that you can change your mind but that your path forward would be heavily based on what goal you want to attain. But we have based the advice on what YOU have repeatedly told us: Reconciliation isn’t on the table because YOU are DETERMINED to divorce.

And then you post this:

Throughout this ordeal, the thing that has given me cold sweats has been my intense and overbearing desire to forgive and try to forget. I want to go back home and try and put this behind us. I have never stopped loving my wife with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. My weakness shakes me up. I have been more concerned with that than anything else. On any given day, at every given moment I have wished for strength to forgive and try to pick up the remnants of our life and see what we could make of it. This shakes me up more than anything you have said to me.

DoneGone: in a semi-ideal world (can’t be ideal because we have to start with the premise that your wife had an affair) then what would be your ideal “solution” or path to your situation?

If you had the option and/or possibility would you consider reconciliation?

Once again: R or D is completely YOUR CHOICE. Of the two then R requires certain things from your wife whereas D is completely based on what you want.

DG

BIGGER keeps asking the right questions.

I may be speculating, but I cannot imagine there is any possible way what is on that cmputer and phone is not going to be a PA and lots of it.

You wife needs to be institutionalized if she is going to this length to prevent you from seeing a little badmouthing and an EA of the computer.

My guess is you will never see it anyway. by now if she is this clever to be manipulating you like this she has not been paralyzed into inaction.

She has stalled you with this MC crap and you will be told soon either she is reneging on her word or it is all deleted.

I can't figure out what you want. I hope you figure it out.

Bigger

Again and again you have told us you want a divorce and no matter what was on the computer, what came out of MC and no matter what your WW said you were determined to divorce. Many of us have suggested that you can change your mind but that your path forward would be heavily based on what goal you want to attain. But we have based the advice on what YOU have repeatedly told us: Reconciliation isn’t on the table because YOU are DETERMINED to divorce.

And then you post this:

Throughout this ordeal, the thing that has given me cold sweats has been my intense and overbearing desire to forgive and try to forget. I want to go back home and try and put this behind us. I have never stopped loving my wife with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. My weakness shakes me up. I have been more concerned with that than anything else. On any given day, at every given moment I have wished for strength to forgive and try to pick up the remnants of our life and see what we could make of it. This shakes me up more than anything you have said to me.

I wrote that only in an attempt to explain my anger, which has stirred much controversy. I am not defending the anger. The chips will land where they will. I have used the means available to me, that's all.

[This message edited by DoneGone at 11:39 AM, May 10th (Sunday)]

That means a lot, I feel like I have been standing in front of a firing squad.

You have been. We shoot at you because we love you and want you to stop hurting yourself.

We kill because we care.

I deprive myself because I do not consider myself reconciliation material.

Gently, why is this the case? How are you not reconciliation material? Or do you instead mean the relationship?

Know this - you can get past whatever you want to, the old relationship is dead, killed with the affair. There can be a new, better one. Built with a different MC, and likely with IC for both of you.

Often the affair, the sex itself, isn't the relationship killer. It is the lies and deceit afterwards. She has a lot of work to do before she's a safe partner to anyone. You might, as well.

Keep your focus on what you need. If R, then you need the full truth and the _full_ truth likely isn't in the phone and emails, hell, she's probably sanitized both remotely so that she can say, "See? All that fuss over this?". The full truth about the affair and the whys must come from her. And she's got to be in a mental state that allows, even requires, that.

If D, then you really don't need anything else, especially if you live in a no-fault state. Just, you know, start the D process. Focus on the present and don't let the past eat you alive.

good luck, keep posting.

Frankly DoneGone I have no concerns any more about your anger. To me it’s a moot point.

You seem to have it within reasonable and acceptable control. If I’m correct you haven’t intentionally or unintentionally hit your wife, dominated her with threats or have a history of using rage and anger to get your way. I think some stakeholders are hanging on to the anger as deflection from the real issues.

Trashing a motel room after finding your wife in it… To me that’s more therapy than rage.

I also don’t think your wife is manipulating you for custody. Your kids are too old for that to be an issue.

I don’t see her negotiating a better position for divorce. Just like infidelity won’t factor then your anger won’t factor.

What I see is a poster (namely you) telling us one thing and then acting in a completely different manner.

I really want to stress that it’s normal. It’s OK to have doubts. But on this anonymous site then it’s OK to share those doubts.

IF you want to divorce then skip MC, return the computer and phone and file. Be fair in the settlement and adjust as quickly to a new life. Live long and prosper.

IF you want to reconcile then some of us have posted suggestions on what to do. I think all of them require you knowing the TRUTH.

Anger is normal and actually good, however...

You are lucky the hotel did not press charges. You are lucky OM did not out an RO on you.

It is reasonable for your WW and the MC to be concerned how you will handle this new information.

I am concerned how you will handle this information too. I can not stress enough that you will not be able to handle it will. None of us have.

I understand the need to know, just make sure you are somewhere or have someone to help you through it. It is going to hurt far more than you can realize until after you read it.

You do not have custody concerns so I think many of the other posts apply. Unless you explode after reading the posts, there is not reason for the cops to be there.

The MC will and should tell your WW to not give you the passwords. The MC may and should notify OM and the police that OM may be at risk if she does.

Forgot this:

What I DO SEE is your WW trying to manipulate YOU with the MC.

I have serious doubts about the MC’s capabilities and ethics and think that if there is to be ANY chance of R then you two need a more capable counselor PLUS she can’t be your WW IC.

DoneGone

Bigger is wise. And I think gave you a good outline up to now.

One fact is clear.

You love your wife very much. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What did you get your wife for Mothers Day today?

On another note your wife has told you that what you will see on the phone and laptop will end the marriage.

Frankly I think she is wrong. You are stronger than that.

You should explain to her that "Manipulating you with MC and the kids is what will end the marriage. Her not giving you the passwords is what will end the marriage."

Because so far all she has done is cover her butt.

We have seen that trickle truth wreck many relationships when they could have been salvaged or rebuilt.

HM

DoneGone I think you are not getting the help you need here.

You need something else. The sense I get is you have no one in the real world on your side. I would bet bottom dollar you have not spoken to your own counselor or pastor or anyone real and tangible who can guide you hrough this ordeal.

You need to get into independent counseling with a counselor who is experienced in handling PTSD and infidelity.

We are not helping you. It just keeps going around in circles here. You are tired of us hitting you and we are tired of seeing a good man flounder.

I think you need to take a break from SI and go and find your way. Come back in a few months and let us know how it went.

Donegone: It isn't your job to make your wife learn her place in life after the kids are gone. That is her job to find a healthy hobby. Sure, you are there to support her. But, the woman is an adult and in a relationship. Communication goes both ways and she was just as equally responsible to communicate how useless and forgotten she felt to you, not a paramour. Let the MC chew on that. Really, the MC is treating your wife the same way as her APs did. Like a little child throwing a temper tantrum who feels entitled to be treated differently than the rest of society.