SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I haven't read this whole thread, but I've read all your posts, TiF.

You've gotten some good advice, especially IMO from M1965.

I'm writing to point out that you're not even 2 months out.

My guess is that you would not necessarily make a decision that affects several decades of life and that is not urgent in that short a time. If it takes a couple of more months to make your decision, it will extend the pain of not knowing where you'll go, but more time will likely get you a better decision for you.

Given the probable impact of your MIL's suicide on your W, given that you don't necessarily want to D, given that some of your W's attitudes support R, given that you have your head on straight about boundaries ... I think you will benefit from not pulling the plug yet.

You are not showing weakness, IMO. Rather, you're maximizing the likelihood of getting what you want.

I'm not a big poly fan. I think human beings do better detecting lies than a machine does. Your W committed to scheduling a test, though, and it's important that she meet commitments, but I think her new job commitment is much more important.

Honesty is required (and I mean that literally) for R & M, IMO. If a poly becomes essential to you, then it's essential. But I have no doubt that you can become better than any polygraph in differentiating honesty from dishonesty.

And even that may not be essential to R, given that some Rs have worked with professional contact only.

Bottom line, given that you're less than 2 months from d-day, you're in much better shape than most BSes.

*****

She says our values don't line up about a lot of things (e.g. politics, some ethics, etc.).

You're 2 different people. You won't agree on everything.

BUT ... hiding her sister's infidelity hits very, very close to home, and you know about it. Neither of you can hide from her sister's A.

In your case, I think MC is entirely appropriate, if you use the sessions to help you resolve the issue of revealing the A and your other differences in general. MC can be a very useful venue for deciding how to go forward.

To R, you'll both have to change some. Your SIL's A is a great test case to see if you both can do the necessary work.

Personally, I see a much greater likelihood of successful R if one or both of you cause the A to be revealed or reveal it yourself.

I can understand your sister not wanting to out the A, because she was told probably in confidence. You were not told in confidence. One option is for your W to tell her sister that you overheard her and that if she doesn't confess within 10-14 days, you will out the A.

Immediate confession is better, but - again - this isn't urgent, IMO, though it certainly is important.

You're 2 different people. You won't agree on everything.

A self evident statement.

No but you should agree on the big things and the big questions of life. The idea that two life partners can successfully exist in separate moral universes is facially absurd and logically incoherent.

And if one those big things is “hey infidelity is okay for me because it restores my feminine empowerment and back off my sister’s nearly contemporaneous screwing around” ... well, then you’ve got a problem.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:56 PM, February 2nd (Sunday)]

In your case, I think MC is entirely appropriate

I disagree but that’s only my opinion and the opinion of many others.

You do you.

Yeah see here’s the thing. Let’s apply a little logic and humor. Remember the old story about the frog and the scorpion?

Let’s say that after that dumbass narcissistic self entitled scorpion had stung the frog and they are both about to drown the dying innocent steadfast frog croaks out,” “you do you.”

Hmm. Something is wrong here. “You do you” seems a little unsatisfying, right?

Maybe “you do you” is a wholly unsatisfying and inadequate and hollow phrase full of more holes than a sieve. Maybe. I don’t know.

So don’t “do you.” Instead do the right thing. Tell the BIL. Cut thru the bullshit and white noise. He deserves to know.

I'm not a big poly fan. I think human beings do better detecting lies than a machine does.

False dichotomy. It’s not an either/or proposition. Do both and use both as evaluative tools. Relying on one over the other, or pretending you must do one at the exclusion of the other, when both are available to you, is unwise.

You have received great advice. M1965 is spot on and sisoon raises some excellent points as well. You are still raw and new into this. Both have raised legitimate points how you can use MC to your advantage. Be vigilant. Both R and D are legitimate options. You will receive support no matter what your ultimate decision is. You and your WW have a lot to unwind. Keep your head on straight on your boundaries. Keep moving ahead with your priorities.

This0is0Fine,

Just to be clear and to make sure that you understood my post, "you do you" is a paraphrase of "To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." from Hamlet: Act 1 Scene 3 Page 3 by William Shakespeare. I wrote that to you, not to your wife or your SIL. My comment was intended to be specific to you, as the context suggests, and not a general comment to everyone.

Also, in the analogy, YOU are the FROG, the "good guy" who is deceived and taken advantage of by the unscrupulous scorpion. Life deals a crappy hand sometimes to honorable, trustworthy individuals that deserve better (like you). The frog did the frog and, thus, was true to its own self. It is the scorpion, by doing the scorpion, that should be shamed, scorned and damned, not the frog. I think that you can relate to the frog's experience. How you feel about the analogy certainly depends upon your perspective, but I respect the frog and praise his goodness. I do hope, however, that your sting is not fatal.

[This message edited by PassThis at 10:17 PM, February 2nd (Sunday)]

To thine own self be true

Unfortunately this oft quoted line comes from Polonius — a feckless sycophant and spy — who is delivering a package of “advice” to his son that could be termed solipsistic utilitarianism. Shakespeare was deliberately poking fun at this advice and he later shows Polonius meeting his fate as a result of following his own worldview. Polonius’ worldview “works for him” right up until the moment he is run through with a sword. Anyway.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:13 AM, February 3rd (Monday)]

TIF's BIL not knowing about his wife's affair seems to be a dealbreaker for TIF to stay married to WW. Here is the thing though: This is not merely a question of what TIF's moral code allows and what it doesn't allow. This isn't just a matter of "to thy self be true" or "you do you". Instead, it is something deeper than that. It is RIGHT that BIL not knowing about his wife's affair, is a dealbreaker for TIF. And it would be WRONG if BIL not knowing about his wife's affair were tolerable to TIF. Otherwise, as long as BIL doesn't know about his wife's affair, TIF is stuck living in filth.

If BIL does not know about the affair, then TIF has to swallow hard every time he sees or even thinks about BIL and how he is being swindled, especially after the pain TIF just went through. TIF will also have to be wondering what his WW's value system really is. She may be playing the part of being remorseful demonstrating varying degrees of effort, but in actually taking the toughest actions to prove it, she decided no. TIF will also have to deal with that knot in his stomach every time WW and her sister communicate. What were they talking about? What advice are they giving each other?

And to say that there is a different set of rules here due to WW's FOO issues and all, is wrong. WW and WW's sister are not some fragile waifs who need to be guided and tutored every few minutes just to get through their days. Both of them had it in them to get married and then to attract an AP and carry on an affair. On top of that, WW has a demanding job managing other people. The same rules abut accountability apply to them as they do anyone else.

So, yeah. TIF's BIL needs to know of the affair, and soon, whether BIL is told by his wife or by TIF himself. This whether TIF's marriage holds or not.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:03 PM, February 4th (Tuesday)]

And as far as the frog and scorpion analogy goes--TIF may be the frog here but a big difference from the fable is that TIF has lived to tell. AND so on that note, he has a duty to be alerting the other frogs about the scorpions. i.e., he has to make sure BIL knows about his wife's affair.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:09 PM, February 3rd (Monday)]

The 180 strategy is very powerful and effective, not only with respect to one who betrays their spouse, but also, in general matters, as an ideal implementation of passive aggressiveness against anyone who transgresses against you in whatever matter or manner. In fact, I intuitively found the 180 process early in my life (early 20's), and have used it very effectively over the last 50 years. It's effectiveness is that it removes the source of offense from the victim's presence, thus granting the victim relief. It also yields the benefit of "out of sight, out of mind," and moves one's focus to the future. It's effectiveness is touted on this site as the "gold standard" of behavior with respect to matters as critical as found here. I endorse it unreservedly.

I think human beings do better detecting lies than a machine does.

False dichotomy.

I think it's essential for a BS to find his/her/their own strengths, especially in the area of (re)building the ability to read the WS. In all cases, the BS has to make the decision to believe or disbelieve the WS.

Besides, while a poly may give some peace to a BS WRT the WS's past statements, it can do nothing for any post-test statement by the WS.

*****

'To thine own self be true...' is pretty reliable no matter who said it.

I've always thought Aesop's point was that the frog, in choosing to believe the scorpion, was not true to himself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:03 PM, February 3rd (Monday)]

'To thine own self be true...' is pretty reliable no matter who said it.

I've always thought Aesop's point was that the frog, in choosing to believe the scorpion, was not true to himself.

The scorpion and the frog is not a fable of Aesop, and the whole point of the fable is that people's nature doesn't change and that it would be mortally foolish to count on it. Not sure it's the kind of fable you want to keep thinking about if you want to reconcile...

I've always thought Aesop's point was that the frog, in choosing to believe the scorpion, was not true to himself.

Perhaps, but the moral of the fable is generally accepted as being that toxic people will hurt others -- and steadfast people are foolish to think they will change their toxic, hurtful nature.

So in one sense you're right - the frog didn't trust his own instincts and ended up dead. Reconciliation is basically a process for ignoring one's own instincts after having it already confirmed that the scorpion stung us badly once.

One of the problems with using integrity as valid reasoning for inaction, is that bad people count on it and use it against persons standing on it. Meanwhile the individuals clinging to their hill of integrity watch while the thing they claim to be protecting is burnt to the ground.

I wonder if your WW isn't telling on the sister because she's confided things to her sister that may come out if the trust is betrayed.

You know what the right path is. You also know that your WW isn't who you thought she was. I'm not sure why you're still playing her game but it's your life. If you want to live in her turmoil, that's your choice. I can only hope that someday you'll shake the mental chains off and take your life back. Take care of yourself.

I wonder if your WW isn't telling on the sister because she's confided things to her sister that may come out if the trust is betrayed.

99% that is true. They both probably know all the details in each others affairs.

If the shit hits the fan after you tell the bil, then expect possible blow back.

If SiL feels like your WW turned on her she may throw out the "I did this but you did that!" defense...they crazy sisters.

One of the problems with using integrity as valid reasoning for inaction, is that bad people count on it and use it against persons standing on it. Meanwhile the individuals clinging to their hill of integrity watch while the thing they claim to be protecting is burnt to the ground.

I wonder if your WW isn't telling on the sister because she's confided things to her sister that may come out if the trust is betrayed.

You know what the right path is. You also know that your WW isn't who you thought she was. I'm not sure why you're still playing her game but it's your life. If you want to live in her turmoil, that's your choice. I can only hope that someday you'll shake the mental chains off and take your life back. Take care of yourself.

So, so insightful. TIF I hope you're still reading. This is absolute spot on advice.

Marriage counseling today was likely useless (congrats to everyone who has been through this before me that called it).
Things we identified:
We disagree on whether the BIL deserves to know. (OK we knew that already). We are going to continue to leave my poor BIL in limbo until we have a better fix on our shit. I'm ok with this for now, but I emphasized my value of integrity and honesty very explicitly.
My WW doesn't want to quit her job. I just want NC. I don't care if she quits, I don't care if OM quits. Just true NC. I used the alcoholic with a pint in the pocket example and everything. Somehow this gets twisted into some stupid ass circular logic. That the job isn't a big deal functionally (my WW even agreed she could get a new job with the same or better career implications, it's just the FOO holding her back). Then therefore, it shouldn't be a big deal for me to have her keep the job because my concerns related to true NC are equally valid as her FOO concerns. It's super fucking easy, it's one choice. The MC is like, oh this will spill over into many choices. No, it's literally just one thing that I would like as a reasonable measure to reduce the chances of a repeat.
When this completely false equivalence was raised, my WW jumped right in to minimization territory. "I could have opened up about my mom to a rock, this isn't about the OM"
I said, "Would you invite the rock into your hotel room?". That shocked her back into apology mode, but what in the actual fuck is the MC thinking? We aren't two people equally wrong on the opposite side of some issue here. She hurt me, and I'm asking for reasonable assurance she won't do it again. Her mom committed suicide, and she is afraid of giving up something symbolic. It's literally a concrete direct interface vs. some FOO mumbo jumbo. So, to those of you who said MC was useless, you are right again.
You'll all be happy to know the scorpion and the frog made a significant appearance during MC as well to help provide clarity on some of the issues.
Can I stop puffing the hopium? IDK. We'll see. She seemed right on the razor's edge of saying she could see her quitting her job without it being about her self worth until the false equivalency bullshit occurred.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:11 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:54 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I’m sorry TIF. It’s hard, I know.

And what people are trying to tell you here is that unless you get an MC that will break out of traditional MC roles and force the WS to get their shit together, they’ll simply try to fix the marriage thru traditional negotiating type tactics, try to get each partner to concede on issues equally. That’s why they suck when dealing with infidelity.

And this is also why we so often try to get BS’s to not work on anything until they are with a WS who has conceded EVERYTHING that their affair has destroyed and come to you admitting that they are completely broken and need help and want to do anything they can to help rebuild and help you heal.

I’m we know it’s really hard to accept that. We know it’s nearly impossible to turn your back on someone you’ve loved for a really long time. But she’s not loving you back right now. She’s doing the bare minimum just to keep you hanging on.

Even if she were doing every damn thing she could the odds are still against you getting to a point where you can have a rewarding relationship again. They way she is handling things now, trying to control the outcome, puts the odds close to 0.

So why not try a different approach? Why not demand what you need to stay in this marriage, just once more state it all to her, and really think about it, bounce the list off all of us, and no, don’t tell her that if she STARTS to do those things you’ll begin to communicate about trying to rebuild.

No, instead, tell her when she has finished doing all those things, then, and only then, will you be willing to talk to her about possible next steps, without making any promises.

You are giving her way to much power right now. It’s truly time to move on and let her choose to follow or not. If she chooses not, then you will have saved yourself a LOT of pain and agony over the next months and years as you try it your way.

I, we, are only trying to help here. We know that living with a cheater, who is essentially not sorry and cares more about her own pain than that of the man whose heart she broke, is not really living at all. It’s existing.

Give yourself a real shot at happiness. Go read the Wayward Side and see what really remorseful WS sound like when they’ve hit the bottom and try to work their way back.

No more discussing whether or not she will quit. Instead, tell her you are moving on, and tell her she can call you when she’s truly decided you are worth it to her to help you heal and repair what she has destroyed. And let her know, that if you haven’t find your way onto something or someone better, you’ll call her back.

what in the actual fuck is the MC thinking? We aren't two people equally wrong on the opposite side of some issue here.

No one is here to say "I told you so." This shit is stuff that brings you to your knees, and it's very hard in the midst of it to know the right thing to do. We've all been there. Some of us still are there.

That said, this is exactly what MC's do. I've yet to read about a good experience. Their goal is to "save the marriage" -- that means at all costs, pretty much, and if throwing you under the bus is a means to an end, so be it. MC's are expert enablers of minimization, blameshifting, gaslighting, trickle truth, rewriting the history of the marriage, false equivalency, you name it. And in the context of infidelity, it is a useless enterprise because that entire bag of tricks is trotted out and used on an already traumatized victim. I am sure there are MC's who "get it" and hold the WW/WH's feet to the fire. But they are rare.

Consider getting yourself to an IC that specializes in betrayal trauma and stopping the MC right now. I know what I'm talking about. I made the mistake -- not knowing any better -- of signing on for 1.5 years of MC after my WW's D-Day. Don't do it, man. Get out of it now.

We are going to continue to leave my poor BIL in limbo until we have a better fix on our shit. I'm ok with this for now, but I emphasized my value of integrity and honesty very explicitly.

For how long is "for now"? In my opinion, you need to define this with crystal clarity and mean it down to your gonads. This won't be a tenable situation for more than a few days. I predict your inner integrity that you have continued to exhibit here in discussions with us will assert itself and will not allow you the luxury of letting this situation go on for much longer. Think about that long and hard and think about if you found out your BIL had kept information from you. What would you think of him, and what would be the long-term implications of your relationship with him?

My WW doesn't want to quit her job. I just want NC. I don't care if she quits, I don't care if OM quits. Just true NC.

You're never guaranteed true NC, and that is a risk once an affair occurs, but the chances of true NC are practically zero as long as she stays in the job. You should care if she quits. You should care a great deal. This hill she is willing to die on is completely disrespectful to you. It's pouring acid on an open axe wound. Her refusal says more than words. Her willingness to flip it around and DARVO/gaslight you on it is even worse. I believe she's using her mother's suicide as a completely cynical ploy to insist on remaining in her job.

Bottom line: The behavior and words from your WW you continue to describe are not the behavior and words of a remorseful spouse. She's gritting it out, resenting you, feeling entitled, DARVO'ing you, in cahoots with her fellow adulterous sister, dragging you into her moral morass now in a complicit agreement to stay silent with your BIL.

She's still calling her affair a "mistake." Did you catch that?

It's all deeply concerning, frankly.