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@PassThis, even going by your standard of "greater good", you understand that this is a matter of ensuring that an innocent bystander gets vital and critical agency back in his own life (i.e., BIL is informed), versus "keeping the peace" with someone you wouldn't be sticking around w anyway because her values do not match yours. So now tell us please, which do YOU think is "the greater good".

Speaking of "competing principles", I am sorry but "spousal confidentiality" is NOT a principle. You vow to be faithful to your spouse above all others but no one is expecting you to be protecting your spouse should they choose to be robbing banks. And even besides that: I don't know about you, but the way I see it, allowing someone to critically deceive an innocent someone else is NOT a principle to be holding on to. It sure as hell does not "compete" with doing your part to ensure that this innocent person is not deceived.

Let's try this another way: Suppose WW and SIL were conspiring to swindle someone else whom you know out of their life savings. Do you really think "spousal confidentiality" should still hold here, that it is of higher priority than disrupting those plans?

And SIL's alleged affair is not "hearsay", OP heard the actual conversation, and SIL's affair is confirmed to be true beyond reasonable doubt--how else could the events transpired e.g., what OP heard of WW's conversation, WW giving verbal confirmation to OP that indeed SIL was stepping out., if SIL were not stepping out on BIL.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:53 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

Really simple here. You are letting your wife dictate terms in the marriage as far as openness. If she refuses to talk to you about "ANYHTING" in her life, then she is lying by omission.

I would give it a week, then ask her if there is anything she wants to talk about. If she has been ok and sharing all her feelings to grow closer?

If she continues to not share, just get the divorce papers out again and walk out.

She knows the price of trying to control the information in the marriage. Purposely keeping it out of texts and Facebook too. She should be afraid of how that makes "YOU" feel.

We know you hate being the tough guy here, but you have too turn the shot clock on again. You folded on the job, but that takes 100% compliance on her part. Not just on what she decides.

You are less than a year out. You should be throwing coffee mugs against the walls while screaming and she should be walking on egg shells.

What got you so far out of that mindset?

Why does she feel confident enough to hide information from you?

What else is she hiding still and again?

(P)retty sure people are disagreeing because your entire opinion hinges on your missapplication of the legal concept of spousal privilege.

I am not misapplying any legal concept. I think that spousal privilege is a moral principle, not just legal. (IMHO, legal principles should be based upon moral principles.) I am commenting on the principal that any information shared confidentially between two spouses should be kept confidential, unless facts clearly override (safety of a life, etc.). Trust is certainly a principle that should have high priority in a marriage. Any disclosure of that information to third parties, without permission, is a betrayal of trust. That betrayal of trust will lead to big problems, especially with all the other issues that TIF is currently facing.

I presumed that most posters would not agree with me. So, I posted solely to provide TIF with a different perspective to consider, "for whatever it is worth."

I also feel for BIL, and hope that he finds out asap. I am just not sure, in this particular case, that TIF should sacrifice his marriage for the cause, however heroic that sacrifice would be.

Sorry if I offend anyone. I am only trying to be fair and honest in an attempt to be helpful. Also, TIF will make the decision about his principles and priorities, not me. I support his actions and presume that they are right for him, even if they are opposite what I may or may not have done.

Possibly, people don't agree with me because they are applying their own (mis?)assumption that TIF's marriage is not worth saving. That if SIL does not disclose, WW must, else TIF must. I offer a different perspective, that is all. Without the possibility of significant adverse consequences, there is no heroism. TIF's consequences in this situation should be given some weight on TIF's considerations.

[This message edited by PassThis at 2:39 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

@PassThis, do you really believe that TIF's marriage is far more likely to be saved if only TIF could just swallow it and not "rock the boat" for WW's sake no matter how much he is troubled by his BIL being deceived.

What you are not realizing is that if the OP were to keep the peace and allow BIL to not know about the affair, there will not even BE a marriage worth saving.

1. His WW--and her immediate family--would be living by a value system that OP would--and should find--hard to stomach. Now why would TIF want to live like that.

2. The OP would be losing respect for HIMSELF. Especially each and every time he sees BIL and doesn't say anything. So how could he be happy in this marriage--his efforts to keep the harmony are making him hate himself!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:46 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

I am just not sure, in this particular case, that TIF should sacrifice his marriage for the cause, however heroic that sacrifice would be.

TIF’s marriage is already in the shitter. His WW made sure of that. He won’t be sacrificing anything by giving his BIL info he has a right to know, and if that’s a deal breaker for his wife, then frankly there’s nothing to salvage here.

Also, by saying nothing, TIF is condoning the self evidently sick and cavalier way his WW and SIL regard female infidelity. It’s clear they both feel entitled to screw around and view it under the penumbra of some twisted version of feminist empowerment.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:03 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

What you are also not realizing is that if the OP were to keep the peace and allow BIL to not know about the affair, there will not even BE a marriage worth saving.

1. His WW--and her immediate family--would be living by a value system that OP would--and should find--hard to stomach. Now why would TIF want to live like that.

2. The OP would be losing respect for HIMSELF. Especially each and every time he sees BIL and doesn't say anything. So how could he be happy in this marriage--his efforts to keep the harmony are making him hate himself!

Exactly right. Without truth, there can be no true reconciliation. The two are inseparable. Living a lie with someone is the opposite of reconciliation.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:09 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

Exactly @Thumos.

Sacrificing one's principles like that e.g., TIF keeping his mouth shut around BIL to appease WW, is really a form of the Pick-Me Dance. Actually it may be one of THE most toxic forms of the Pick-Me Dance. You are going so far as to be sacrificing your very principles!

How does one quote other posts on here btw? I was going to quote your post but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:29 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

The OP must tell his BIL that his WW is cheating on

him.

TIF,

I am sorry about this latest development and the conundrum it presents you with.

It is probably best to be realistic about the proposal that you can convince your wife to tell the brother-in-law about her sister cheating on him.

Earlier in this thread you describe a big argument she had with you when you contacted her affair partner's wife, telling you that you had no right to 'destroy' another family (with no reference to her own efforts to achieve that goal). She later made statements at an MC session that indicated she was sorry about hurting you, but that she saw nothing wrong in what she did.

In light of that, she will be a very hard sell indeed when it comes to getting her to 'destroy' her sister's marriage by informing her BIL of her sister's infidelity.

I am sorry to say it, but the only person who is going to tell him (or not tell him) will be you. What you choose to do is your prerogative; we all have to make up our own minds on these things.

PassThis, you have to remember that rules only work if everyone obeys them. Marital rules only work if both parties in the marriage obey them. TIF's wife's actions prove that she does not believe in 'spousal privilege' or 'mutual confidentiality', so insisting that he should be bound by rules that she ignores puts him at a disadvantage in the reality of the situation he is dealing with.

It is TIF's wife who needs to be reminded of the rules, not TIF. Had she not ignored them all, he would not be here, because he obeyed all the rules and he did not cheat. And yet despite that, he is still here.

First, I respect each and everyone's posts/comments as sincere and heartfelt expressions of their positions.

@PassThis, even going by your standard of "greater good", you understand that this is a matter of ensuring that an innocent bystander gets vital and critical agency back in his own life (i.e., BIL is informed), versus "keeping the peace" with someone you wouldn't be sticking around w anyway because her values do not match yours. So now tell us please, which do YOU think is "the greater good".

Your presumption is that TIF's marriage is "with someone you wouldn't be sticking around with anyway because her values do not match yours." TIF has not recognized that as a fact. So, I do not take that as a given. SIL's affair has already occurred. Disclosure now would not prevent the act. TIF and WW are not the only persons that could disclose to BIL, or only source of disclosure. At this time, disclosure by TIF, on his own, would be the death of his marriage. That is a definitely a significant cost to TIF. At this time, IMHO that cost to TIF is greater than the expected potential benefit of disclosure to BIL by TIF.

It is the responsibility of the SIL to ensure BIL's agency, not TIF's. As mentioned in TIF's posts, to TIF's knowledge SIL's affair is over. There is no continuing danger (health, etc.) from the affair. It is likely that intimacy between SIL/BIL is good enough not to have aroused BIL's suspicion in the first place. So, what has been done is done. The disclosure will not change the past. I agree that BIL should know. But, at this time, the cost to TIF is too dear for him to be the one to disclose. I get that we are all our brother's keeper. But I can't donate my organs to well-deserving innocent victims until I no longer need them myself. I do think that TIF could look for a way to improve the chances that BIL is informed in a way that does not lead back to TIF.

"The greater good" is a subjective concept and each person must come to his/her own assessment. It is also impossible to know or value the consequential effects of each action. I think that it defaults to a personal evaluation of the effect of your actions on yourself (or family), similar to the idea that thousands of individual trades, driven by self-interest, in the market produces a "fair value". I agree, however, that costs to "innocent bystanders" should be a factor.

Let's hope that SIL herself discloses to BIL soon. Then problem resolved.

Speaking of "competing principles", "spousal confidentiality" is NOT a principle. And even besides that: I don't know about you, but the way I see it, allowing someone to critically deceive an innocent someone else is NOT a principle to be holding on to. IT sure as hell does not "compete" with doing your part to ensure that this innocent person is not deceived.

Trust IS a principle. Spousal confidentiality is part of, and supportive of marital trust. Privacy is a principle. The sanctity of marriage is a principle. The idea of "protecting the marriage" is also a principle. So, we disagree. Or, at least, have different perspectives.

Let's try this another way: Suppose WW and SIL were conspiring to swindle someone else whom you know out of their life savings. Do you really think "spousal confidentiality" should still hold here, that it is of higher priority than disrupting those plans?

In my last previous post I gave the exception to absolute confidentiality for extreme cases. The application of that exception depends on the full facts of the specific case. Vague hypothetics do not lead to clarification. For each hypothetical, you end up with "it depends." I will give you that, in this general fact pattern, I would disclose to the intended victim. I am not sure that it would help though, if the disclosure of the plans were after the swindle.

And SIL's alleged affair is not "hearsay", OP heard the actual conversation, and SIL's affair is confirmed to be true beyond reasonable doubt--how else could the events transpired e.g., what OP heard of WW's conversation, WW giving verbal confirmation to OP that indeed SIL was stepping out., if SIL were not stepping out on BIL.

OP "heard" his WW "say". He does not have any direct knowledge of facts and circumstances (based on the information provided in the posts). Therefore, hearsay stands.

Do you really believe that TIF's marriage is far more likely to be saved if only TIF could just swallow it and not "rock the boat" for WW's sake no matter how much he is troubled by his BIL being deceived.

Looking at from another perspective, if TIF "rocks the boat" on this matter, he will definitely destroy his marriage. So, he has a better chance of saving his marriage if he doesn't "rock the boat." In my post, I allowed that if TIL doesn't mind the consequences, he wuld be justified for disclosing what he knows to the BIL.

1. His WW--and her immediate family--would be living by a value system that OP would--and should find--hard to stomach. Now why would TIF want to live like that.

TIF and his WW are currenlty in process of determining if their value systems are compatible. I just don't think that process should be jumped to your final conclusion thereof.

2. The OP would be losing respect for HIMSELF. Especially each and every time he sees BIL and doesn't say anything. So how could he be happy in this marriage--his efforts to keep the harmony are making him hate himself.

If TIF has taken actions in accordance with his values and beliefs, still has hopes to reconcile, and understands the reasons why he has made his hard decisions and taken, or not, his actions, then he should be PROUD of HIMSELF. If his actions do not result save his marriage and getting him out of infidelity, then he will have done the best that he could do. That is an effort that should garner respect. Other BS's have lived through this stage of infidelity and have successfully reconciled. Why shut down the process now based upon a presumption of failure?

PassThis, you have to remember that rules only work if everyone obeys them. Marital rules only work if both parties in the marriage obey them. TIF's wife's actions prove that she does not believe in 'spousal privilege' or 'mutual confidentiality', so insisting that he should be bound by rules that she ignores puts him at a disadvantage in the reality of the situation he is dealing with.

Two wrongs don't make a right comes to mind. TIF should remain strong, compassionate and patient with an obviously broken WW. WW has broken the rules. That is acknowledged. But, I do not think that it should be presumed that she can not fix herself. There is evidence in the Wayward Side forum to allow that consideration. I am certain that the number of rules that have not been broken is limited. That does not imply that rules, even with less than 100% compliance, are not useful.

TIF is in a horrible situation. He loves his wife and is showing strength, compassion, and patience. Many WW's have been in the fog with their heads up their behinds much longer than that of TIF's WW. She has significant FOO issues for sure. At some point in time, she will either fix herself, or TIF will lose patience and surrender to the fact that the marriage can not be saved. IMHO, the jury is still out on the ultimate result. Until then, protecting the marriage is a reasonable course.

I hope that I do not seem defensive, nor am I trying to offend. I am only trying to clarify my rationale. Let's not t/j on this issue. Maybe a separate thread in General would be more appropriate.

[This message edited by PassThis at 9:18 AM, February 1st (Saturday)]

At this time, disclosure by TIF, own his own, would be the death of his marriage.

His old marriage is dead. Let's get that straight. An act of infidelity kills the old marriage.

Second, we don't know how his wife will react. If TIF's recalcitrance to let his BIL know information he himself would want to know is based on fear of the unknown or fear that his wife will leave him, then that's the pick me dance writ large.

Third, if it's the case TIF's WW will leave him because he wants to give his BIL the courtesy of knowing what he himself would want to know, then TIF needs to be done with said WW. It would then be obvious both WW and SIL share a familial and cavalier attitude toward sexual infidelity, particularly when committed by a woman -- and that they jointly posit some quasi-feminist "empowerment zone" over female infidelity (in fact, his wife has already tried to posit this very thing in very direct language).

This would be a deal breaker all by itself.

It is the responsibility of the SIL to ensure BIL's agency

False.

It is the ethical responsibility of anyone who comes into possession of information about a friend or loved one being subjected to the toxic abuse of infidelity to let that person know.

There is no continuing danger (health, etc.) from the affair. It is likely that intimacy between SIL/BIL is good enough not to have aroused BIL's suspicion if the first place. So, what has been done is done. The disclosure will not change the past.

I'm sorry to say this sounds almost word for word like wayward thinking.

"What he doesn't know won't hurt him."

"It's in the past"

And you have absolutely no idea whether there's continuing danger to his physical safety or not. But surely everyone here must realize TIF's BIL's mental and physical health is at stake regardless of whether this is "in the past."

Looking at from another perspective, if TIF "rocks the boat" on this matter, he will definitely destroy his marriage. So, he has a better chance of saving his marriage if he doesn't "rock the boat."

And any marriage where a betrayed spouse is walking around on eggshells seeking to placate and please a wayward spouse is not a marriage worth saving, in any case.

If TIF has taken actions in accordance with his values and beliefs, still has hopes to reconcile, and understands the reasons why he has made his hard decisions and taken, or not, his actions, then he should be PROUD of HIMSELF.

It's my opinion that nearly everyone on this thread, including TIF himself, knows he will not be proud of himself if he sits on this information and lets his BIL be subjected to an unfaithful wife who has secretly conducted an extramarital relationship.

No matter what New Agey pretzel logic is applied, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning. I doubt from what I've read that TIF will be able to either.

TIF is already being asked to do something we all know is damn near impossible and frankly miraculous - step up and provide grace to his WW when she deserves absolutely none. He is giving her a gift and -- let's be honest -- she's been kind of shitting on it already.

Now he's being asked to not only swallow the shit sandwich of his WW's (functional) sexual infidelity, while also looking the other way and sitting like a good little boy in the corner while his SIL smugly informs his cheating wife about her escapades.

It's all too much. Or it would be for me.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:21 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

To just throw my two cents in here. I'm concerned that I am in fact finding a place where my values don't match my WW. How can she value honesty if she doesn't try to convince the SIL? She won't try. How can I demonstrate I think cheating is wrong and the BS has a right to know, when I keep the BIL in the dark (on top of losing my game of divorce chicken over the job)?
All I could muster was to tell my wife "I think your sister is in the wrong and she is denying her husband agency in their marriage." Now I'm sitting here thinking about how weak I am. Do I have no real values? Do I have no integrity?
While PassThis has had many comments that have helped me with my "gentle persistence" method, I'm now less confident there is a path to success at all.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:12 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:55 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

There is no continuing danger (health, etc.) from the affair. It is likely that intimacy between SIL/BIL is good enough not to have aroused BIL's suspicion if the first place. So, what has been done is done. The disclosure will not change the past.

Until it happens again. It could have been prevented or avoided if it were to happen again. Is there a reasonable probability of it happening again when the adultery was undiscovered and without consequences?

I didn't find out until years after the PA ended. It's in the past. It's over. Apparently it shouldn't bother me because it was so long ago and there's no continuing danger.

How is the gentle persistence method working for you, This0is0Fine?

Until it happens again. It could have been prevented or avoided if it were to happen again. Is there a reasonable probability of it happening again when the adultery was undiscovered and without consequences?
I didn't find out until years after the PA ended. It's in the past. It's over. Apparently it shouldn't bother me because it was so long ago and there's no continuing danger.
How is the gentle persistence method working for you, This0is0Fine?

Honestly, overall pretty well I think. We make progress, go back. She continues to appear more remorseful and accepting that she was wrong and is guilty. She is showing more understanding for my pain as we share difficult conversations and I explain to her my point of view and why the job is an ongoing unresolved conflict, and that she is causing continuing damage as long as she stays. That I do want her to quit, but not in a rage like she had offered before.
This particular additional pressure of her sister's A not withstanding of course... Perhaps the phrase "And aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" applies here.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:12 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:55 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

TIF,

Now I'm sitting here thinking about how weak I am.

Please, stop that right now. We all handle things our own way, and while an 'all guns blazing' approach might work in one situation (because of all the many elements that make up that situation), it may fail and make things worse in another situation. The same is true with a gentler, 'I'll give them space' approach. Neither will work in every situation, and we all do what feels right and natural to us.

So please blow the word 'weak' out of the airlock. You have tried to be accommodating and compassionate, and there is merit in letting your wife have space and seeing what she does, because she is the only person who can make her a 'safe' life partner for you.

Harsh reality: short of locking someone in a basement, there is no way of stopping them cheating if they really want to. And all of us found that out the hard way.

I understand PassThis's unilateral philosophy of every person retaining/maintaining their own values, regardless of what those around them do. I believe there is great strength to be drawn from that, and that what others choose to do reflects on them, and not us.

So please do not think that what you are doing, or not doing, is 'making' your wife do what she is doing. She is an intelligent, sentient human being, making decisions that make sense to her.

And when a person 'goes rogue', operating independently and making the rules up as they go along, or ignoring those that do not suit them, we have to accept that adults are free to do whatever they want to, and that we cannot control them.

The person we can control is ourselves, and we can decide what is, and is not, acceptable to us. There is a very wise member of this forum called Bigger, who is a former cop with experience of infidelity.

His approach to the issue of a spouse who has begun to operate 'independently' is essentially: You are free to sleep around with whoever you want, just not as my wife/husband. It is your choice. I will not try to control you, but I will also not remain in the marriage if you do x, y, or z. The choice is yours".

It is a good approach, because it has no pretense of control, no revenge, no anger. It basically tells a wayward person what it will take to make or break the marriage, and puts the choice 100% in their hands, where the responsibility should be.

While PassThis has had many comments that have helped me with my "gentle persistence" method, I'm now less confident there is a path to success at all.

It all depends what 'success' is. In SI, 'success' tends to be 'getting out of infidelity', and that can take several forms. If success is your wife returning to the marriage, becoming 'safe', and taking a different view on infidelity to the one she has stated, that is possible, but it may require you to become more independent and show that you are having doubts about the marriage to change the dynamic.

If you think about the current dynamic, it is kind of, "I hope my wife sees sense and decides to recommit to the marriage, so I will wait around indefinitely in case she does".

Another approach could be, "Wife, can you give me what I need to remain in this marriage, or do you want me gone, and the marriage over? It's up to you to convince me to stay. You don't have to do it, I won't make you do it. But I will be watching how much effort you make, and basing my decisions on that".

That puts you back in charge of your life, and lets her make the big decisions about managing hers. And suddenly the silly rhetoric she comes out with that equates infidelity with striking a blow for her independence as a woman becomes her giving you a reason to question her commitment and value as a life partner.

I think she knows this, which is why she - as the person who betrayed you - keeps saying she is scared of you leaving, as a way of manipulating you - the victim of her betrayal - into proving to her that you are a safe and secure life partner for her.

Can you see how upside down and back to front that is?

So if I had to recommend a new approach for you, it would be to say to your wife, "I am watching what you do, and I will base my decision on it when I feel I have enough evidence to make that decision".

And if she bellyaches and doesn't like it, the answer is "Tough". Keep her wondering, explain nothing, let her feel the earth move beneath her feet. Let her feel uncertainty. It will be good for her, and it will remove the self-assurance that you will always be 'there' for her that has given her the confidence to act in such an entitled and selfish way.

And this may not be you, and that is fine, but I would feel sorely tempted to say, "Hey, if you don't want to be with me, that's fine. Just say the word, and you can move in with your boyfriend and his wife. I'm sure that will work out really well for you".

The bottom line is, you have the power to plot the course of your life, not your wife. Let her know that you know that, and that if she does not shape up, you will no longer be there. The choice is hers, she can make it or break it.

None of this is said to encourage harshness towards your wife. It is said to encourage compassion towards yourself. I think the key message to send is this:

"If you abuse me, I will be gone. That is up to you. Do whatever the Hell you want".

[This message edited by M1965 at 6:30 PM, January 31st (Friday)]

I was thinking it wasn't going so well, This0is0Fine. It's often said here that you can't "nice" them back. Didn't work for me. Surviving Infidelity is about getting out of it. I suggest that a more forceful approach might work better. M1965 laid it out much better than I would have.