SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oops, double post. :)

[This message edited by plainpain at 7:39 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

Many men feel that the physical part of the relationship is the cornerstone. All else is built on top of that and relies on that for support. It is the way nature intended. If we aren't going to be physically compatible then we can decide that the effort in other areas isn't worth it. Sorry ladies it is truth. If I don't get attention in the bedroom I am not going to feel very close to you. Therefore less interested in what you have to say, etc.

The above is meant for longer term existing relationships. Dating is different.

To each his own but I disagree. You did say many men not all men. Sex is important but I don't want it to the cornerstone of any relationship I have in the future. Yes it's important but I want there to be much more than sex in the relationship. What happens when the "or worse" shows up and sex is taken out of the picture for you or the woman. Some accident takes away your ability to have sex or your partners. Then what, you drop each other because sex is no longer an option. I hope there was something other than sex propping up the structure in that long term relationship or marriage.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 8:02 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

But basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

Absolutely. And I think many guys do as well. I will call it male human nature.

Solution? I do not ask and I do not tell. The past is in the past and all that matters is the present and future. IMHO your sexual history is YOUR business. I do not understand why couples discuss the issue.

Get tested for STD's and look forward.

-t2g

[This message edited by thyme2go at 8:14 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

To answer this question:

But basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

It's not the number, it's the attitude. If it's part of learning and growing and having fun, the answer is a loud no. But if it is part of using sex as means to something else, then I think of the woman as a slut irregardless of the number.

Hope that makes sense.

Question:

Is no porn a deal breaker for you?

My WH says he started detaching from me when I went apeshit ballistic and threw out all the porn in the house. My daughters had found it on his phone - a clear breach of the agreement we had in place since he had made and broken promises about porn throughout our marriage.

I have a moral problem with porn, but it was also very triggering for me when I was going through counseling for an eating disorder. He would also mentally detach from me during sex with increased porn use. Would start re-enacting stuff I knew he had seen in the porn, treated me more and more like an object and less and less like a person, didn't respect boundaries I set, did things he knew I didn't like despite being told on more than one occasion, etc.

I told him he could either continue to use porn and our marriage was going to look very different - we were going to become more like roommates than spouses, or he could stop using and start putting our relationship back together.

Unfortunately, he didn't tell me that he chose the porn and instead let me go through the motions of thinking we were working on things. Pulling away from me while simultaneously complaining that he wasn't getting enough sex.

I just wonder if I will find a guy that is OK without having porn in our relationship.

You see, mine are small - a whopping A cup. I wish they were bigger - always have. But I have noticed that, as I get older, they still stay firm and perky. So...that's good, right?

This is the key

natural in any size is preferable

but perky is also good.

I don't spend much time in front of a mirror. The closest thing to vanity I do in front of a mirror is making sure I have not been eating to much lately and if so I adjust my eating and/or exercise accordingly. Other than that it's just normal usage (shaving, etc.).

I could probably name a few things, but appreciation when I had spent time doing something for her. For example some kind words and a nice dinner after I had spent all day cutting, chopping and stacking firewood so she could be warm in the winter versus complaining that I had spend all day ignoring her or not doing exactly what she wanted me to do.

Yes a WW has a right to say no to intimacy and if the reason makes sense that's fine, but withholding intimacy to control someone is just plain wrong!

A quickie mostly takes care of a physical need, but not as much an emotional need and yes we also have emotional needs. I married my wife to create a family not to have someone to take care of my physical needs. Though if she was in the mood, a quickie was always appreciated.

I don't think I would judge someone who had been with numerous people, but I probably would not want to date someone who still had the mind set that sex was a casual thing. I personally see sex as a connection between committed people and is not something I take lightly. That philosophical difference would likely be the issue not the actual number of partners. This also should answer what I think about pursuing sex on the first date or too early in the relationship.

Regarding the physical part as being a cornerstone. I think physical and emotional compatibility are important and for me the physical side starts at the serious dating and marriage stage. I'll fool around early on, but actual sex is not something I'm going to push for early in a relationship. That's to intimate of a connection to share with someone you don't have strong feelings for. So yes it's important, but I don't see it as a cornerstone of the relationship.

I prefer the tease of lingerie, but I see where having a naked day/weekend could be interesting, but it is not something I would expect or want all the time.

I'm not certain if I see this as jealousy. Is he possibly noticing something that could be interpreted as wayward behavior and is upset by that? If he is a remorseful wayward then that could be the case. I know something like that would upset me because I know the pain of betrayal and I would not wish it on anyone.

I don't look at porn so no porn is perfectly fine with me.

For all the woman with body image issues here's a song that as a father of two daughter brings tears to my eyes and I have two beautiful daughters. "A More Beautiful You" by Jonny Diaz. He's a Christian singer, but I don't see it as a preachy song.

basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

I'm not sure that "judge" is the right concept, but it does make a difference to me. I've been very careful to keep my sexual relationships as something sacred rather than casual. It's valuable to me in a way that goes beyond quantitative analysis...but numbers are a factor, because they're indicative of the value placed on something.

A higher number generally means that the woman in question values sex in a relationship differently than I do. She's speaking a different language than I am, and I'm not really interested in changing my mind on the topic (especially once we're in a theoretically monogamous relationship where her arguments about relative value are going to be *purely* theoretical because neither one of our numbers are going to be changing for awhile.)

It might very well mean that she'd make a great friend, but she's not going to be someone I date.

Which is okay. She'd probably be just as turned off by the number of cigarettes I've smoked in my life.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 9:39 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

Nora -

But basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

I try not to judge people. But I would say that in general people judge people from their past actions. For example, would you have a problem with someone who had committed a string of robberies if they told you they didn't rob anymore? What about a child molester who said he didn't do that anymore? These are obviously extreme examples, but I think the principle is the same.

some people believe that no one ever really changes. therefore, if you were the kind of person that did what did, you are still that person.

There will be some men who won't want you because you have slept with a lot of men and done a lot of things. There will be some who don't care. I'm afraid I think there will be more in the former group. Why would they care? Insecurity of some form or another. What if they run into someone you've slept with and that person gives them a wink? What if they run into people you've done something really wild with? A lot of people don't want to be put in that situation.

if you're confronted with this question, I would be honest. but I would say something like, "I've been very open in my relationships. I want you to know that I've had sex with all of my serious boyfriends. but I don't want to get into numbers. I think there is no benefit to talking about past relationships, so I ask that we don't talk about it." To be honest, I think the vast majority of men do not want to really know all the things there wives/girlfriends did with other men. Particularly if you did things with other men that you won't do with your current boyfriend.

men want to believe that they are the "love of your life." the one man that means everything to you. If they can't compete for that title, I think a lot of men will leave. I would. If my wife was pining for another man, because he was "the one," I'd be out of there. I want to be "the one." :)

[This message edited by mike7 at 9:46 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]

You see, mine are small - a whopping A cup. I wish they were bigger - always have. But I have noticed that, as I get older, they still stay firm and perky. So...that's good, right?

I don't care about breast size. I like breasts, but I like them all. and for the record, firm and perky is great!

I think most men fantasize about fit women. So if you're small breasted, but you're slim or petite, you look great. Typically very busty women are also very curvy, hence, probably extra padding. But if they are fit for their body type, they will look great.

do women fantasize about a slob with an enormous beer belly? Probably not. I think everyone fantasizes about fit people.

I think we have to be realistic though. As we get older we tend to get out of shape. it's pretty hypocritical for a fat guy to expect his wife to be a model.

So flip side of a previous question. You're a guy who's been around the block, been with a lot of women. Take your number and DIVIDE it by ten & that's how many your wife has been with. Do you judge her LACK of experience? Or are you elated since her previous partners don't give you much to "compete" against?

Jana,

The scenario you're describing is the situation both of my brothers are in (wild youth, lots of girls, married younger women with much less experience), and they've both told me that it's a complete nightmare for them. They don't talk much about growing up, don't like to visit our hometown. One of my brothers has never signed up for Facebook just to avoid having to deal with all of the ex-girlfriends who would try to friend him.

Rather than feeling elated, what they wish is that there was less of an experience gap, because the situation has created trust issues with their wives.

(That's part of it. They'd also be the first to tell you that they spent a long time not being very nice to the girls they dated. They treated them as disposable, because...well, they were pretty easily replaced. That attitude was corrosive, and to some extent, their wives worry that it's still lurking in there somewhere, even after a decade or more of marriage.)

Wow . . . That's interesting. Sad that they feel their marriages are complete nightmares. I do think there have been trust issues in our marriage (insert bitter laughter) but I hope to God my husband doesn't feel like our marriage is a nightmare because I didn't sleep with more people.

I actually have more exes on my Facebook than he does on his. I just didn't sleep with the ones I dated in high school.

Why do you check yourself out in the mirror?

If I remember, I'll look to make sure I didn't miss a spot shaving. That's about it. There are lots of nicer things I could look at.

Do you think a WW does not have the right to say "no" to intimacy after infidelity?

I don't think anyone is entitled to sex. Not for any reason. I do think what Ascendant said carries a good deal of weight though.

Is a quickie good enough for you?

A quickie is great if you're strapped for time! I think this feeds into the variety question. If it's always just a quickie, it would be concerning.

basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

I'd really like to say no but the honest answer is yes, I sort of do. (not the slut part, as I think that's degrading.) One of my sister in law's really pretty friends had a crush on me a few months ago and while we weren't a good match in other ways, I didn't want to be her (on average) third new partner that week. Of course, if I didn't know her history, I don't think I would want to know and I still wouldn't have dated her because she wouldn't compare very favorably to a potato in an IQ test but the large numbers of sexual partners was a big deal for me.

I think a huge reason for this is insecurity. I would feel like I'm competing with 50+ other men and that I would never be good enough. Probably irrational and unfair...

I might have been able to get over it if we were a match in other areas though.

So men, at what number do you view a woman negatively?

It isn't a numbers thing for me exactly. Or if it is, I'm going to have to get over it because I don't think there are very many 33 year old women who could chop off 8 of their fingers and all of their toes and still be able to show you how many partners they've had.

Do you respect girls more if they don't put out right away vs. having sex on the first date?

I don't know about respecting less but I'd rather wait and get to know each other a bit before jumping into bed. I think sex complicates things and puts the blinders on. It makes it easier to miss red flags. I'd personally rather wait for a while.

What does it mean if a man expresses jealousy on behalf of another man?

Sounds like empathy to me. If I saw that, I would be pretty upset for my friend.

Is no porn a deal breaker for you?

No, but it also seems like a strange hill to die on to me. I'd much rather have a faithful wife than porn. It sounds like it really caused damage in your relationship and I can see how it would be a trigger.

You're a guy who's been around the block, been with a lot of women. Take your number and DIVIDE it by ten & that's how many your wife has been with. Do you judge her LACK of experience? Or are you elated since her previous partners don't give you much to "compete" against?

As stated above, I don't think I'll EVER have this concern but my best friend is a bit of a disgusting man whore and he doesn't seem to care. Confidence is definitely not something he struggles with, though.

[This message edited by h0peless at 1:23 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

I gave the wrong impression, Jana. Their marriages aren't nightmares, just that small aspect of them.

It's not like something they're battling every day.

Sorry for not being clear there.

@plainpain

What does it mean if a man expresses jealousy on behalf of another man? For example, seeing a woman he barely knows hanging out with a bunch of guys while her boyfriend is out of town, and getting upset about it. My WH did this, and I took it to mean he had some sort of attraction to her - which he denies. It was like he was disappointed in her... like he thought she wasn't that type. And he mentioned it, like, four times. Am I right to assume he has some sort of 'thing' for her that he may be in denial about, or am I overly sensitive?

I personally don't have a problem with a woman hanging out with men without their spouse/so as long as that's all it is. I don't get jealous this way myself. I'm possibly apt to believe him that he doesn't have an attraction for her. I suspect, and I could totally be wrong here, he's subconsciously projecting. If he's really that disappointed in her, enough to make some serious comments and put up a stink about it, is he really disappointed in her, or himself? Was he maybe not that "type" either? Is he looking into a mirror and because she's a woman it's easier to comment on (vs. a guy doing the same thing)? That's my take on this. I don't think this is so much about the other girl hanging out with the guys so much as I think it's about him. Especially where he barely knows her, why get that upset? Is her really that upset with her? Or is it a way for him to express something he sees in himself?

@nekorb

Is no porn a deal breaker for you?

I can see how you would have some major issues with porn. Especially where he tried to act it out on you (note I didn't say with you). Very sorry you went through what you did with your WH. I know you have been through a lot with him and are continuing to have to go through a lot. That said...

As a sometimes occasional porn user myself, giving up porn for my wife would not be a deal breaker for me if she asked me to. I do not have an addiction to it and only use it every once in a while. I can go through several weeks without looking at it and also without thinking about looking at it (as in I don't feel the need so it doesn't occur to me to do so). More of like every once in a while if the mood strikes but if it meant that much to me, or any of my previous partners, I myself would not have a problem giving it up.

@JanaGreen

So flip side of a previous question. You're a guy who's been around the block, been with a lot of women. Take your number and DIVIDE it by ten & that's how many your wife has been with. Do you judge her LACK of experience? Or are you elated since her previous partners don't give you much to "compete" against?

I haven't been with a lot of women. But I've had a lot of sex with each woman I was with. My ltgf's had a lot of ONSs or casual sex which was very infrequent as far as overall quantity of sex is concerned. Where since I was living with each one of my girlfriends sex was several times a week with them (depending). That said, they had a lot more in terms of numbers of partners on me, but I was more experienced than them so this question is skewed for me, but I will try and answer from having the more experience aspect.

Lack of experience is not a bad thing what-so-ever. I have always been very open and honest with my partners and shared my philosophy on sex with them. That is should be fun. That you shouldn't do anything you are not comfortable doing (they were all survivors of some sort of sexual abuse). That it can be really fun to explore and learn from each other. Note I said from each other because I believe that even an inexperienced woman has a lot to teach her partner, especially about what she likes and doesn't like as she figures out and becomes more experienced and comfortable in her own sexuality. I have actually found that lack of experience can bring you closer together and bond you in certain ways. For example, even though my partner's have had at least twice as many partners as I have had (including my wife), they had a lot more first time experiences with me than with their previous partners. I would say that probably the biggest first was to let them open up and explore what they wanted to in a safe environment with me. From mild to wild doesn't matter as long as they were having fun and learning about themselves and us as a couple learning about each other. I know you directed this question in the sense of my wife, but for me it applies to all of my partners...except with my very first partner because obviously she was more experienced than I. I guess I have a bit of a different spin here than the others.

OK thanks for clarifying W_A_L! I was really stunned that that issue would make the marriage a nightmare. Makes more sense now.

YOP I'm more like you - I didn't have a lot of partners but I dated the same person from 17-21. Those are usually prime wild-oat sowing years, and I spent that with one person and then got married to my husband at 23. So there was only one other person between the long-term ex and my H.

Do you think a WW does not have the right to say "no" to intimacy after infidelity?

Of course she can say no but one thing to consider is that many BH have a running pro/con list. Denying sex goes in the "con" column.

But basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

I've only been with one W (FWW), so I would probably not be interested in a more "worldly" woman. But I also think that "slut" has near zero to do with the number. A woman who has a lot of casual sexual partners is not a slut, but a woman who is using sex to gain advantage is sorta slutty, regardless of the number.

Is no porn a deal breaker for you?

I think it is. I'm not some sort of porn fiend but I wouldn't want to be with a woman who had a no porn rule. Not because I couldn't live without porn. I would assume that the woman had low self confidence (which led to FWW PAs) and that she would be less adventurous in the bedroom. If I ever start over I think I would be pretty picky about the type of woman I would date.

You see, mine are small - a whopping A cup. I wish they were bigger - always have. But I have noticed that, as I get older, they still stay firm and perky. So...that's good, right?

FWW went from a modest B to an A after childbirth. Defies explanation. They were perky and I didn't mind. I'm not really a boob guy. She hated it so she got an augmentation. It looks good and they are more fun but I can honestly say I would have preferred the perky A's. I don't tell her that because I don't care that much and her self-image would take a dive.

Is a quickie good enough for you?

Not anymore. After learning the hard way that it's not good for FWW, I can't bring myself to even try. My pleasure now is directly related to hers.

So men, at what number do you view a woman negatively?

Not negetive but not for me. I'd prefer to be with someone who tended toward long term relationships. That said the equation is:

(Age-18)/3=number of partners

JK, there's no equation. But since I've only been with one, I think I'd shy away from anything over 4? But IDK, hope to never find out.

But basically do you see a woman who has been sexually free or 'loose' or whatever as a slut, and judge her?

No. I tend to not judge others like that.

So flip side of a previous question. You're a guy who's been around the block, been with a lot of women. Take your number and DIVIDE it by ten & that's how many your wife has been with. Do you judge her LACK of experience?

Same answer.

<eta - Oh wait, I fail the prequisite! Nevermind. >

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 11:19 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

From my questions:

Is a quickie good enough for you?

Do wives have the right to say, "Fine, but just a quicky?"

Thanks to BBT for:

I know I'm a WW but I wanted to answer this. Personally if I found myself saying that I'd have to check my boundaries. That's not ok. Having sex because I feel obligated or just because my husband wants to, that's not on.

That said, quickies are not always bad. There are two types of quickies; the one mentioned above and the sort where sexual tension has been building for awhile and you sneak off while the kids are watching telly. It's a bit naughty and mutually pleasurable. That sort is ok.

This is making me check myself. While I enjoyed spontaneous sex, I *did* allow myself to be treated like a piece of meat. A lot. As SBB said in the other thread, I felt it was my wifely duty.

XH and I are both CSA survivors, and I think he copied the behavior and turned abusive, and I lacked boundaries, which allowed me to easily be abused.

I almost feel like the other thread about "No, no, no, fine, just get it over with." It just seemed easier than fight or flight..

I need to work on my boundaries, cause I should have had a man that respected me more. I'm kind of sad now how much "obligatory" sex I gave him. Sigh..

I still have lots of healing to do, and I just wanted to give another shout out to all the menz and womenz. Thank you so much for sharing you experiences. I can feel my heart healing as we speak