SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Nightswimming:

Just reading all of your posts on this thread, you have already come a long way. Bravo. Some things are hard to hear in the first hours/days, but eventually the fog lifts (much faster for us than the WSs) and you begin to see clearer, and realize that you came to the right place for advice.

I've got to say that I don't feel like I've come a long way. Right now it's just brutal. I can't concentrate on anything long enough to keep all these awful thoughts at bay. This really is way worse than my dad dying -- perhaps in part because of the nature of his disease and death, but still. I really feel like I'm excluding everybody else's feelings at the expense of mine -- everybody else's except my wife's. I just can't not focus on all this shit. How the hell am I supposed to "detach"?

Do not take the ring off just because she did. Do it when you are ready. It signifies something to you. It's possible that she will continue down this road and you will eventually realize it doesn't mean anything anymore.

I've decided not to remove the ring, at least not yet. I figure it'll send a message whether it's on or off: Off, it's spite; on, it's desperation. Whatever. Her interpretation of this simple gesture can't be my problem.

H dropping her off at MC? That's just the shit. It also means she is not taking MC seriously. My XWH wanted me to go to MC, only to find out later he wasnted to use it as a means to get me to agree to amicably D. Little did he know that I had filed the week before, and I told him that day. Score one for the BS!

The thing I'm having so much trouble with -- okay, *one* thing -- is that I don't *want* a divorce. I want her back, working on herself in therapy and on our marriage in couples therapy with me. I certainly will be working on myself in therapy one way or the other.

She's a terrific person who's been, I don't know, huffing paint thinner or something. Her brain just isn't working right, if at all. I can't see her as anything *less* than a terrific person, because previously, she'd never shown herself not to be. I know lots of folks are able to detach quickly enough to say "Divorce!" soon after discovering their spouse's affair, but I'm just not there.

I loved the "you can't paint a house while it's on fire" analogy. No reason to be in MC if she's not willing to try to R. But I do suggest finding IC for you if possible. It helps to post on here, but it also helps to talk to someone in real life who is there only for you. I soaked more Kleenex in my IC's office than I think I did at home!

I already had two therapy sessions in the space of three days last week. Unfortunately, the next one is next Wednesday. Probably I'll have two individual therapy sessions before my January 15 appointment with our marriage counselor (whom my wife is supposed to see tomorrow -- if she deigns to honor the appointment).

I would not give her the letter. Continue to write/journal your feelings and emotions...it helps to clear the cobwebs and free your mind. But giving the letter to her does show her the desperation and she will see it as clinginess.

So far, I'm not sending the letter. It's all stuff I want her to know, but... know what? Really, she knows it already. I truly feel that she's rebelling against that angel on her shoulder, listening only to the loud, flatulent devil on the other shoulder.

On that note, go 180 on her. (see the healing library) If you appear unattainable, maybe it will get her to thinking. Remember, her A is a fantasy. Her AP may not be so "rich" when his wife gets through with him and her glass house may come crashing down.

Well, I have read the 180 a couple times. It's difficult getting it to sink in. Same for the other literature I've downloaded from this site (which I've distilled into, like, 50 single-spaced pages -- I mean, that's a lot of stuff). Thing is, as much as I know she'd rather be with "H" right now and all, (a) maybe she won't feel that way in a while, and (b) if that's the case, it sure doesn't mean she'll be running back to me. She's thinking about "life on her own," etc.

I'm not sure about your state, but we end up splitting the filing fee here, so it may not matter. Regardless, many divorce lawyers will give you a free consultation, if you are willing. Sometimes just knowing that the BS has taken steps towards D brings WSs out of the fog, though that's not a guarantee.

If nothing else, I've got a lead on a do-it-yourself book recommended by some family law place near here. I haven't bought it yet.

I'm glad you called the OM's wife. At least now you know she already knew. Sometimes they don't know. I was told OW's H knew, and he was contacted - and he didn't know, not that they were having a PA.

In some ways, it's worse to know that she knew, and that she confirmed the fact that she's divorcing the son of a bitch. In other words, there's no way to scare *him* out of the affair.

We all have unpleasant thoughts towards the AP, and sometimes towards the WS. It's normal, so don't beat yourself up about it.

Oh, I'm not beating myself up. I'm just saying that even I am shocked at the level of hatred and hostility I feel toward this guy, and the horrors I'm wishing on him. If any of you have read the "Dexter" books and know what I mean by "human potato," you have an idea of what I mean.

And by all means, ignore her text. H might not be around and she could be fishing for attention. Leave her alone, NC.

Ah. There's the rub. The text is the one thing I can't get out of my head. I think that, yeah, it could easily be her way of saying, "So... you don't mind twisting in the wind some more while I keep waffling, right?" But also I'm thinking that this indicates that she may not be *so* fuck-struck that she's unable to think of some of the rather important matters at hand. The text itself is not encouraging, but I can't help feeling that there might be some hope attached to it -- maybe because I need that hope. I don't know. I guess I’m hopeful enough to think she actually gives a shit about me, that I’m still in the race, and that she might even want to clear her head and make non-stupid decisions. A close friend's take was that there was no malicious intent in the text... which I guess is something.

I also think it’s guilt, possibly brought on by the stuff that happened with my son over Christmas—i.e., him freaking out at my mom’s—and their dinner together the next night, during which they kind of touched on it, but didn't delve too deeply because it was too difficult for him to do.

And today I woke up feeling awful because of a dream in which we were sort of "together," but I kept trying to get answers out of her to questions like: Are we back together? What do you want? Stuff like that. She kept not answering -- taking clothes off, grabbing me, whatever, but not really answering. When I’d yell or be angry, she’d act distant or offended, like "Oh, grow up!" And when I’d be needy or “desperate,” it was almost like “Shut up and fuck me.” (As if she actually wants me for *that* these days.)

It was like she’d reach a decision that day. But later she had a rehearsal for some play I don’t know anything about -- and, of course, "H" is in it. (She auditioned for something last month, and I'm pretty sure she would've gotten in. No question "H" is in *that*.)

I kept trying to ask what the deal is with "H," and she wouldn’t answer: “Have you broken it off with him? Are you still seeing him? Have you been tested for STDs?” (See how survivinginfidelity.com has broken into my dreams?) At one point she said, point blank, that she wouldn’t talk about him -- something about a door being locked, meaning that whatever was between them was private and I wouldn't be privy to it. I said, “No. Fuck that. Full disclosure.” Eventually she says that "H" cried when she broke up with him, but I think that was just the "me" in the dream, letting her voice in my head say what I want to hear or something.

Anyway, I have the feeling it’s no more than a sort of “wish” dream -- she breaks up with "H" and comes back to me (plus I actually get to have sex -- woo-hoo!). This would not seem to be the way in which the signs are pointing, though, and the pain today has been as bad as ever.

Been trying to work -- right now, for the first time ever, I'm lucky enough to be working from home, but it's just too hard to keep these thoughts from breaking through.

I feel like I'm sliding backwards. I haven't heard a word from my wife since Thursday, when she sent that text ("I know you want answers. I can't express them yet. Still need the space to sort it"), nor have I expected to, but it still sucks. Those of you who said "ignore the text" -- I hear you. I really do. I just haven't been able to follow your advice. (At least she bothered to send a "Happy New Year" text to my son last evening....)

Apparently she did see our marriage counselor on Saturday -- he wants to do an individual appointment with each of us -- so I guess I shouldn't feel too bummed, or something. I left him a message on Friday saying, basically, that I'm in a very bad way, and if he can move up my 1/15 appointment at all, I'd really like to do so, and at least he was able to schedule me for *this* Saturday. Also, I have an appointment with my therapist tomorrow. I guess that's something.

It doesn't feel like time is my friend. It's three weeks since I got the phone call, and it feels like eons; the idea of feeling like this for a lot longer is really quite awful. She knows it's terrible for me -- hence the text, I guess -- and she's thinking that she can't allow that to be a motivator for her. I guess that makes sense, but there's no way I could do that if the roles were reversed -- her misery absolutely would be huge in my mind. Meanwhile, I'm not sure respect plays much of a part for her. I think she's letting herself believe that *I* don't respect *her*. I figure she has to demonize me in some way in order to feel justified in her choices. Not only that, but I'm spending lots of time trying to think from her point of view -- something else everybody is advising me to stop....

I wish I were the kind of person who could say, "Affair? Fine. We're through!" But I'm not. Clearly I'm willing to forgive a lot and to work very hard on our problems. I just wish she didn't matter so much.

It's not so much that she's stringing me along, "preventing" me from moving on. She's not. I'm just not moving on. I don't want to keep bugging my friends and family over the phone, so when I'm not working, I walk a couple miles a day, but mostly all I do is try to watch TV, pace around the apartment (which ain't all that big), sleep a little, do e-mail, and lie around playing solitaire on my iPod while listening to audiobooks. Nothing takes my mind off this (especially work).

It makes me crazy that she "needs space" from me, but not from "H." How the hell do I compete with that? All I can hope is that (a) absence will make the heart grow fonder, and (b) her increased time with him will reveal that she could do a hell of a lot worse than come back to me, but I just don't trust her brain to be working well enough for her to see it, even with the evidence in front of her. "H," I think, will be smart enough not to treat her like shit -- yet. She thinks he loves her; all he loves right now is his sex life. Everybody he does this to, they *all* think he loves them.

So anyway, these are the traps I can't stop myself from falling in: focusing on "H" (and the horrors I wish would befall him), the mind movies, the desperation *she's* so desperate to escape. How do I detach?

Smoky,

How the hell do I compete with that

Oh sweetie, as hard as it is to believe...YOU don't! No one can compete with a fantasy.

I have read your thread. Please know your reactions are just as normal as can be.

BUT...you do need to make some baby-steps toward change. I imagine working from home does not help, as you don't get a change of scenery. KWIM?? I get that. FWH and I own our own business, so while separated, (you can read my story in my journal), then finding out, and working it out I had no choice but to be here every day!! NOT what I wanted to do, but I just took one step at a time.

One thing I get from your thread is that you are trying so hard to analyze, and second guess her every word and action. BTDT!! This is such a shitstorm that we BS's cannot help but go into panic mode. My BFF would debate me every day on my guesses. And ya know what? Most of the time I was sooo wrong!! So I had to let the analyzing go.

As you focus on yourself, and your son, you will eventually notice that you didn't think about her for a minute, then 5 mins, then an hour. See where this is going?

Until she pulls her head out of her ass, (and hands it to you on a silve platter) you cannot R. One person a R does not make. I apologize if I missed it but do YOU have your list of requirements for R? Has she seen them? MC is a great place to present them.

Your want of R is what most of us want. You can get there, if she is willing.

Sending you hugs and strength.

PS: reread Buffalo's responses. He is always spot on!

[This message edited by still2suspicious at 3:31 PM, January 1st (Tuesday)]

still2suspicious:

No one can compete with a fantasy.

Yeah... rationally, I know that. But I have to think that to some extent, it's *not* a fantasy for her right now, know what I mean? I don't know exactly how long this has been going on, but I think they've been together for at least a couple of months. I don't expect that the bloom is starting to come off the rose yet, at least for her, but now that they're spending even more time together, I'm thinking that it's becoming less fantasy and more reality. (For both of us, really.)

BUT...you do need to make some baby-steps toward change. I imagine working from home does not help, as you don't get a change of scenery. KWIM?? I get that.

Actually, working from home is fine. It keeps me from having to make, in this case, an hour-long drive each way, during which all I'd be able to think about is this situation -- I feel like a prisoner in my own car. The timing is such that I didn't really start working from home until after she left on the 10th.

One thing I get from your thread is that you are trying so hard to analyze, and second guess her every word and action. BTDT!! This is such a shitstorm that we BS's cannot help but go into panic mode. My BFF would debate me every day on my guesses. And ya know what? Most of the time I was sooo wrong!! So I had to let the analyzing go.

I tend to be analytical anyway, and it's just such a habit -- I don't know if I can stop. The "letting go" thing is what I'm having the most trouble with.

As you focus on yourself, and your son, you will eventually notice that you didn't think about her for a minute, then 5 mins, then an hour. See where this is going?

I do try. Right now, though, focusing on myself mostly entails focusing on how shitty I feel and how much I want my wife back. The things I'm interested in just aren't grabbing me at all. I hate that I can't concentrate for any length of time without these thoughts popping up.

Until she pulls her head out of her ass, (and hands it to you on a silve platter) you cannot R. One person a R does not make. I apologize if I missed it but do YOU have your list of requirements for R? Has she seen them? MC is a great place to present them.

I know this won't happen until and unless she gets her head out of her ass -- not something I can count on ever happening. I really don't have a list of requirements per se, but if we were to reconcile, there definitely are conditions that, if violated, would end the marriage. Top of the list is "H" -- not just him, but any potential "H's," too. "He doesn't exist" is the condition: no further contact of any kind, except for perhaps a letter (which I'd be happy to write) explaining that there will be no further contact, even to the extent that if the two of them end up in a community theater production, one of them had better drop out. There's other stuff, like full disclosure, by which I mean that neither of us can hang onto whatever's bothering us -- we have to speak up, and we have to hammer it out, and we have to be completely honest, even if we know it'll hurt. Marriage counseling would be a must, as would individual therapy -- working hard on ourselves and our marriage, in and out of counseling. Stuff like that. Plus a sex life we could both live with.

Your want of R is want most of us want. You can get there, if she is willing.

That's the big question. Her saying recently that repairing our marriage is "not a priority" is still doing my head in. She may feel differently in, I don't know, six months, but then, it seems to me that the longer this goes on, the further apart we'll be, which is one of the reasons it's so hard for me to let go.

Sending you hugs and strength.

PS: reread Buffalo's responses. He is always spot on!

So I'm seeing.

Thanks so much for the kind words and concern. Everybody's been very helpful here, and I do pay attention to what you all say, even if it's not making me change my behavior yet.

Smoky,

You talk a lot about what you “want” with little consideration to what you are being offered, what you can have and what you could possibly attain.

Look – if someone slapped you with his left hand and then reached out to shake your hand with his right… How would you react? OK – the first time you might accept the outreached right arm but what if he slaps you again? And then again? And then again? At what point would you realize that no matter how sincere the offered handshake is then your better and safer option would be to step back to avoid being slapped?

I’ve sometimes uses a comparison here on SI: Imagine you are lying asleep in bed and you wake up to a high-pitched wail. In between sleep and awake you think that the sound just MIGHT be the smoke detector in the hallway. You sniff and THINK you smell smoke. No matter how you try then keeping your eyes closed, thinking the smell is imagination and that the sound is only a passing car won’t change reality. Wishing it isn’t a fire won’t make it disappear. Saying you don’t want your house to burn won’t make the fire go away. The only thing you get from ignoring reality is that IF this is a fire then ignoring it will only give it more time to burn.

That’s in a sense where you are now. We have established your marriage is on fire. We have established that your attempts to reach out to your wife have been returned with a slap. We have established that your options are limited by the fire burning your bridges and paths… So what you need to do (IMHO) is realize what REALISTIC options you have and then follow the one that makes most sense to you.

Now – I really want to emphasize that what I suggest is also your best option for saving your marriage. In a sense that’s the only positive thing you have going for you at the moment.

I would suggest you decide to move out of infidelity.

That’s it. That’s the only big decision you need.

It’s a bit like if you plan on doing a long hike. You don’t have to start by deciding when to take a left step and when to take a right step. You don’t have to decide whether to take beef and beans or chicken and curry. You simply have to start by deciding to do it. Then you start planning and implementing. Then you make broad decisions, then you move into details. Right now you are worrying about the details without having a clue where you are headed.

So decide to move out of infidelity.

At the moment (and quite far into the trip) your wife can decide that she too wants out of infidelity. You don’t start with the destination – you move towards it. And you act and react accordingly each step of the way.

Right now your wife can’t commit. So fine. Tell her she’s perfectly free to choose you, OM, divorce or even to do the Marine barracks down the road. But… her actions have consequences. YOU are moving out of infidelity. If she can DECIDE to leave OM, DECIDE to commit to the marriage, DECIDE she is willing to do the work… Well – then she can go on the journey out of infidelity with you.

BUT YOU ARE LEAVING. You are going out of infidelity. With or without her.

Tell her: Either we are married or we are not. A divorce is only a technicality. You are moving out of infidelity. At the moment the only path out is through the termination of the marriage, with all the issues that involves. It’s a long path and will take time. If she can show you a different path that makes sense then fine – you are willing to look at that. But maintaining an affair and maintaining a marriage will never make sense. So if she can’t come up with or if she can accept your path of committing to the marriage… well the only option is divorce.

It’s not what you want, it’s not what you wish for but it’s the only realistic option you have been offered.

And finally: listen to bufffalo.

Bigger,

First, thank you for your reply. I'm trying to hear what you're saying, though there are things I don't quite get. I do try to listen to what I'm being told here and elsewhere, but it's like my brain is full of these thoughts that keep whirling at such a speed that other ideas just bounce off them, regardless of the angle of approach. There are things that you and others are telling me that are full of common sense and, indeed, may be the *only* reasonable approach, but I'm afraid I'm just not going to get them until I get them -- very possibly a lot later than I hope.

You talk a lot about what you “want” with little consideration to what you are being offered, what you can have and what you could possibly attain.

That’s in a sense where you are now. We have established your marriage is on fire. We have established that your attempts to reach out to your wife have been returned with a slap. We have established that your options are limited by the fire burning your bridges and paths… So what you need to do (IMHO) is realize what REALISTIC options you have and then follow the one that makes most sense to you.

This is a very good point, and a tough one for me to understand. I feel seriously powerless -- as though there are *no* options other than to feel awful and wait for her to lower the boom. I know intellectually that that's not true, but I'm finding it increasingly hard to reconcile what I know with what I feel.

Now – I really want to emphasize that what I suggest is also your best option for saving your marriage. In a sense that’s the only positive thing you have going for you at the moment. 
I would suggest you decide to move out of infidelity.

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by that.

At the moment (and quite far into the trip) your wife can decide that she too wants out of infidelity. You don’t start with the destination – you move towards it. And you act and react accordingly each step of the way.

Right now your wife can’t commit. So fine. Tell her she’s perfectly free to choose you, OM, divorce or even to do the Marine barracks down the road. But… her actions have consequences. YOU are moving out of infidelity. If she can DECIDE to leave OM, DECIDE to commit to the marriage, DECIDE she is willing to do the work… Well – then she can go on the journey out of infidelity with you.

So is that basically what you mean? I.e., "Here are your choices, but these are the consequences"? I hate to appear *too* dim, but I'm just not really getting "move out of infidelity."

Tell her: Either we are married or we are not. A divorce is only a technicality. You are moving out of infidelity. At the moment the only path out is through the termination of the marriage, with all the issues that involves. It’s a long path and will take time. If she can show you a different path that makes sense then fine – you are willing to look at that. But maintaining an affair and maintaining a marriage will never make sense. So if she can’t come up with or if she can accept your path of committing to the marriage… well the only option is divorce.

Sounds like you're saying, simply, that her choices are me or somebody else -- but not both. Well, certainly this is how I feel. I'm having trouble finding a way to come to terms with that, and to say it in a way that makes sense to both of us. Of course, I'm also so afraid of her calling my bluff.

Part of this is the fact that she left the night I received the phone call, three weeks ago. So even though almost all of her stuff is still here, it's not really like I'm kicking her out of her home.

Anyway, I'm sure you can see, in these comments alone, how circular my thinking is, and how I'm stuck -- for the time being -- on a confusing path that just isn't getting me where I need to go, despite everybody's helpful advice. I'm really having trouble clearing my head.

becoming less fantasy and more reality

Smoky, the only one who is getting reality is YOU! She is still in la-la land. So far she's had no consequences! She knows that you are still there, she gets to play with POSOM, no bills, no dirty undies on the floor. So the fantasy is NOT going away for her.

You will start to get your thoughts together soon. It takes all of us a while, at the beginning. This shitstorm has a way of spinning our worlds out of control.

If you really listen to Buffalo, and now Bigger! you will learn what is best for YOU! They are two of the best guys! (My advice comes from a gal whose H had an EA, but infidelity is infidelity)

Keep posting buddy. You're doing the best you can, and that's all you can ask of yourself.

Smoky,

No one is talking about the laws of reflection or refraction here. Both Bigger and Bufffalo have given you great advice. This is at best a trinary solution set. You know what you want, which makes it a binary solution. In or out, what will she do to support that?

God its scary to end a marriage in spite of what we believe, but sometimes it is necessary to save our own souls.

Damn brother, good luck!

Eta hate touch screens

[This message edited by 5454real at 8:17 PM, January 1st (Tuesday)]

Of course, I'm also so afraid of her calling my bluff.

That's just it Smoky...you cannot "bluff"...you have to mean it, you have to follow through on whatever consequences you lay out for her.

Of course, I'm also so afraid of her calling my bluff.

Bigger's proposals I think are premised on the basis that you're not prepared to continue current arrangements. It's not a bluff, it's where you are.

You're saying I'm moving on, out of infidelity. Your WW can choose, to commit to M or not, but you're moving on, with or without her. And her 'no decision' is a decision. Her decisions determine the next path. If M then...this is the deal, if not then...D.

All of a sudden

Her saying recently that repairing our marriage is "not a priority" is still doing my head in.

becomes less relevant as you've a plan and process that works for you.

Brandon makes the same point, it's important it can't be a bluff.

Be well.

Smoky

Infidelity is so much more than simply a spouse having sex with another person. Therefore ending infidelity is also so much more than the spouse simply stopping having sex with that person. Infidelity is the emotions, the decision, the thought-process of having an affair. It’s also the reaction, the consequences and the constant pressure an ongoing affair puts on a relationship.

Infidelity is also a situation that affects a lot more than simply the participants in the affair (as you already know). Your wife’s actions are now affecting you, and will affect your family, friends, relatives… It will affect in one way or another each and every stakeholder in your marriage. How it will affect is dependent on how things progress. It can be a minimal affect or it can be major.

Infidelity is a decision. It’s not inevitable; it’s not something that simply happens. At some point your WW decided that she would allow a chain of events to progress beyond what she KNEW was a point of no return. It’s a decision. It’s made freely and with thought.

It’s not often that an affair starts right away. That is – a WS and an OP simply meet and start within the same hour have completely crossed a clear and definite marital border. Generally things progress. At first it’s an innocent enough friendship with innocent enough conversations. But then it progresses so the conversations border on crossing the line. Then the line is crossed. Then there is physical contact that develops into sex. It’s a path. For some it might take hours, for some days. But it’s a gradual path and on each step on that path the WS (your WW) DECIDES to take it one step further. At each step your wife could have said “no”, gone back home and worked on whatever issue made her think she didn’t love you, the marriage was doomed, that you were lacking or… if she was honest enough… what was lacking in HER.

If we can’t agree that infidelity is a decision… Well… then we can’t really deal with it can we? It’s a bit like why horses can shit in a parade but the band better not. The horse can’t help it, can’t decide to keep it in until it reaches the stables. You can neither blame a horse for being a horse nor expect it to be anything else. If the trumpet player dropped his pants in the middle of Main Avenue that would be a completely different issue…

OK – so why am I making all these statements? Well – if infidelity is a decision then ending infidelity is also a decision. The sexual act is only a part of the decision to have an affair. In a sense it’s the “end product”. Your wife could cut off all contact with OM and never see him again. That would only end that end-product but not deal with all the steps leading up to it. It’s definitely a step in the right direction but to end infidelity a couple have to work towards ending all the issues that led the WS to have an affair (This does not in any way imply anything you did or did not do made her have the affair. The affair is totally 100% her bad).

You mention you feel powerless. Well that’s possibly the most common mistake we BS make. Fact is we have all the power we need. Once again: discern from what you want and what options you have. Standing in front of a burned house wishing it wasn’t burned down won’t fix it. That is not an option. Not more than wishing your wife had not had an affair. Fact is she is having an affair. That’s the reality you are facing.

I wish I were rich but I’m not. But I can work hard, put aside and save money. I can behave sensibly and who knows – one day I might be rich. Same with your WW affair; you might wish it hadn’t happened but it will still have happened. You might wish she chooses to save the marriage but if she doesn’t then she won’t. As long as you simply stand there and wish… you are powerless.

Look – Do you think this is easy for your wife? If OM was such a sure thing and you such a loser then how come she hasn’t filed and moved on? Think about it. She too is battling her demons about her options. What I suggest is make her options clearer to her: The marriage or the affair.

No – you do not go and say “Wife. I am divorcing you because you are having an affair”. It’s not an ultimatum per se. It’s more of a consequence: “Wife. I love you and I wish we could work on saving our marriage. I believe we can and I am willing to commit to the work required. But I have had this epiphany: Losing you is NOT the worst outcome from the present situation. Sharing you is indefinitely worse. Therefore I refuse to share you and think losing you is the lesser of two evils. Until and unless you commit to working on the marriage and to NC with the OM then it is best for us to work towards ending this marriage.”

Nothing drastic. Divorce is a process and it takes time. It’s not as if you have to leave or lease an apartment within 24 hours or have to file today. You can start by gathering financial info, separating your finances, talking to other stakeholders in the marriage, having your house valued, interviewing a competent attorney. Nothing drastic, nothing rushed. Simply a process where you are slowly but surely getting out of infidelity.

How will your wife react? Well – as long as you want to and as long as you do then allow her a path back. Make some things clear: Reconciliation will require immense work from both of you but it starts with her committing to NC with the OM.

Bigger is right. It is a process (divorce or reconciliation) but unless you start the process and lay down your boundaries, nothing will change.

Nothing is final and all can be negotiated but there is NO negotiating infidelity. It really is that simple. You don't compete, you just set the terms, your terms.

I saw this posted on another thread.

"I have no problem with you seeing other men, but not while your married to me."

Simple and to the point. A hard line drawn in the sand.

Hey Smoky,everytime I thought that my M was over, I felt relieved. It was like this weight was lifted off my back. I was ready to get on with my life and my kids.(she was surprised to hear that I wasn't going anywhere.)

It wasn't what I wanted, but sometimes we only have one choice.

Take care.

Dirk

smokey....

Bro...you are doing pretty good - so far...yes it blows, but you will survive....with or without her....

I pretty much agree with "bigger"....he's one of the old farts that held my hand over 4 years ago...as is "woundedbull"....heed their advice.....

Smokey....affairs are an escape from reality...they are rainbows, unicorns, and dancing elves....affairs are a fog induced, lie based behavior that is clouded in the bullshit we call a fog....until that fog (if it does at all) lifts for your wife....your marriage is over...until she realizes that there is not a "pot of gold" at the end of her rainbow....no white picket fence, either.....you need so assume it IS over...(your other option is to stay married to a wife that has a BF and is openly dating).....THAT is unacceptable to me - and should also be unacceptable to you.....

Bro.....there is a long way between "filing" for a dovorce and the final hearing....(in Texas its at least 60 days or so)....If you were to file now...you would be sending her the message that you will NOT tolerate her behavior....papers are a HUGE reality check....and yes, Bro....your wife needs a reality check.....should your WW leave her AP and be willing to do the work necessary to "win you back" - you could always call off the attorneys and enter into "R"......if not......you are closer to ending the marriage she chose to leave...if this is an "exit affair" - a divorce would speed up your recovery process.

My WW didnt pull her ass outta her fog until i "lawyered up"....the divorce papers were a major factor in her fog raising.....until she was looking at the papers...she stayed in her fog....

Dude.....i assumed my marriage was over...no faking on my part..none at all - i knew i was heading for a divorce.....i am a firm believer in the 180 process.....(i spent 2 months or so doing all the wrong things)...it is not designed to win your wife back....its goal is to help you to detach...and move on.

Good luck.....keep us posted....

Bufffalo

Bigger:

Infidelity is so much more than simply a spouse having sex with another person.

Weirdly, initially I was ready immediately to forgive the sex. Right now, though....

Therefore ending infidelity is also so much more than the spouse simply stopping having sex with that person. Infidelity is the emotions, the decision, the thought-process of having an affair. It’s also the reaction, the consequences and the constant pressure an ongoing affair puts on a relationship.

This is what amazes me about how so many people -- apparently -- take it so lightly.

Infidelity is also a situation that affects a lot more than simply the participants in the affair (as you already know). Your wife’s actions are now affecting you, and will affect your family, friends, relatives… It will affect in one way or another each and every stakeholder in your marriage. How it will affect is dependent on how things progress. It can be a minimal affect or it can be major.

I'd really love to know how her siblings and mom are handling it -- assuming they know. I love them, they love me -- it can't be easy for them.

Infidelity is a decision. It’s not inevitable; it’s not something that simply happens. At some point your WW decided that she would allow a chain of events to progress beyond what she KNEW was a point of no return. It’s a decision. It’s made freely and with thought.

This is a point I tried to get across to her. She at least didn't insult me by actually saying, "It just sort of... happened." (There are plenty of other ways to insult me....) But that's pretty much what it sounded like she was trying to get across. "I wasn't actively looking for another relationship." Jesus. What you describe below sounds awfully dead on to me.

It’s not often that an affair starts right away. That is – a WS and an OP simply meet and start within the same hour have completely crossed a clear and definite marital border. Generally things progress. At first it’s an innocent enough friendship with innocent enough conversations. But then it progresses so the conversations border on crossing the line. Then the line is crossed. Then there is physical contact that develops into sex. It’s a path. For some it might take hours, for some days.

In this case, months, I think. They met in a play in Summer 2011, and it appears that they were either in a physical affair or at least an emotional one a year later.

But it’s a gradual path and on each step on that path the WS (your WW) DECIDES to take it one step further. At each step your wife could have said “no”, gone back home and worked on whatever issue made her think she didn’t love you, the marriage was doomed, that you were lacking or… if she was honest enough… what was lacking in HER.

I think she's *trying* to be honest. On the other hand, she's making quite a point of citing the stuff in our marriage that she was unhappy about, and how theater was an "escape." And she's copping to the problems that she's carried with her since childhood. I don't think, however, that she's told herself, "I'm the one doing this. He didn't push me into it." I think she'd rather make it my fault.

If we can’t agree that infidelity is a decision… Well… then we can’t really deal with it can we? It’s a bit like why horses can shit in a parade but the band better not. The horse can’t help it, can’t decide to keep it in until it reaches the stables. You can neither blame a horse for being a horse nor expect it to be anything else. If the trumpet player dropped his pants in the middle of Main Avenue that would be a completely different issue…

I'm pretty sure it's Main *Street*....

OK – so why am I making all these statements? Well – if infidelity is a decision then ending infidelity is also a decision. The sexual act is only a part of the decision to have an affair. In a sense it’s the “end product”. Your wife could cut off all contact with OM and never see him again. That would only end that end-product but not deal with all the steps leading up to it. It’s definitely a step in the right direction but to end infidelity a couple have to work towards ending all the issues that led the WS to have an affair (This does not in any way imply anything you did or did not do made her have the affair. The affair is totally 100% her bad).

Oh, I have no doubt of that. As I've said, I take full responsibility for my shortcomings in our marriage (and am even more willing to do so once they're articulated more effectively, 'cause I'm still not *really* certain about everything), and I definitely blame myself (or at least accept responsibility) for my own issues. But... I mean, over the years there have been a couple of women to whom (and even *from* whom) I've felt more attraction "than I should," but had it even occurred to me to allow things to move beyond pleasant conversation, I certainly wouldn't have thought, "Well, I wouldn't be doing this if my wife made me happy enough." I would be thinking, "I can't do this to my wife." Shit, I don't even cheat in my *dreams* -- I always remember that I'm married.

You mention you feel powerless. Well that’s possibly the most common mistake we BS make. Fact is we have all the power we need. Once again: discern from what you want and what options you have. Standing in front of a burned house wishing it wasn’t burned down won’t fix it. That is not an option. Not more than wishing your wife had not had an affair. Fact is she is having an affair. That’s the reality you are facing. 
I wish I were rich but I’m not. But I can work hard, put aside and save money. I can behave sensibly and who knows – one day I might be rich. Same with your WW affair; you might wish it hadn’t happened but it will still have happened. You might wish she chooses to save the marriage but if she doesn’t then she won’t. As long as you simply stand there and wish… you are powerless.

This is a good point. And, frankly, it's the kind of thing I do: wish. Are you familiar with "Deep Thoughts" by Jack Handey? If not, feel free to look it up, but it originated on "Saturday Night Live" as these little 30-second bits: You'd see a stream or a meadow or butterflies, and you'd hear Handey say something like, "It's easy to wish for money. And that's what I like best about it: rocking back and forth, wishing for all that money." It's a trap I fall into easily, and it's hard to avoid.

Look – Do you think this is easy for your wife?

Well, easier for *her*. I mean, she's *doing* it, and I have to think it gets easier every day.

If OM was such a sure thing and you such a loser then how come she hasn’t filed and moved on? Think about it. She too is battling her demons about her options. What I suggest is make her options clearer to her: The marriage or the affair.

I feel like I'm moving closer to that.

As an aside, I find it interesting (not to say "insulting," but that too...) that the first marriage counselor we saw last month tried to get her to believe she's codependent and was addicted to our marriage... but the guy she's with now is a recovering alcoholic who, himself, is leaving an even longer marriage, and he's getting her to go to AA meetings with him (though she does *not* suffer from any substance abuse or addiction); seems to me that if I'm in a codependent marriage (and I don't *think* I am), she's leaving it for an even more codependent situation.

No – you do not go and say “Wife. I am divorcing you because you are having an affair”. It’s not an ultimatum per se. It’s more of a consequence: “Wife. I love you and I wish we could work on saving our marriage. I believe we can and I am willing to commit to the work required. But I have had this epiphany: Losing you is NOT the worst outcome from the present situation. Sharing you is indefinitely worse. Therefore I refuse to share you and think losing you is the lesser of two evils. Until and unless you commit to working on the marriage and to NC with the OM then it is best for us to work towards ending this marriage.”

So far, this is possibly the most helpful part -- thank you so much for clarifying. Of *course* I don't want to have to say that, and the fact is, it *feels* as though losing her *is* the worst outcome... but given the mayhem I wish on that man she's "seeing," perhaps I'm seeing that sharing her *is* immeasurably worse.

Nothing drastic. Divorce is a process and it takes time. It’s not as if you have to leave or lease an apartment within 24 hours or have to file today. You can start by gathering financial info, separating your finances, talking to other stakeholders in the marriage, having your house valued, interviewing a competent attorney. Nothing drastic, nothing rushed. Simply a process where you are slowly but surely getting out of infidelity.

The good news, if you want to call it that, is that we have basically nothing. I've had to cash in three small IRAs just to pay taxes or credit-card debt over the years; she may have one through her job, but other than that, our savings and other assets are negligible. We live in an apartment we can barely afford (though it's the going price for the area). We do have one relatively new car -- she's the driving force behind *that* purchase -- but I'm driving it, probably because she doesn't want the payments -- but historically we've driven clunkers into the ground. About the only thing we have of any potential value is a brick from the demolished Cavern Club in Liverpool, which Paul McCartney may or may not once have peed on.

How will your wife react? Well – as long as you want to and as long as you do then allow her a path back. Make some things clear: Reconciliation will require immense work from both of you but it starts with her committing to NC with the OM.

That would indeed be Condition Number One, to the extent of her not even being in a *show* with him again. But I'm kind of putting the cart before the horse. But mainly, my conditions start with "No more 'H' or anything close," then continue to "Work very hard on ourselves, in and out of therapy, and our marriage, in and out of marriage counseling," and "Full disclosure and honesty." That's probably mainly it from me. Well, I'd like a better sex life, and not just because I'm a guy, but that would be somewhat negotiable -- the rest of them wouldn't. The "No Contact" thing, if violated, would spell an end to the marriage (if we pretend for a moment that reconciliation could happen) -- or, at least, I'd make that clear up front.

In any case, I think you've really helped clear up some stuff for me. I'm not quite *ready* to say what you suggest, but I'm really feeling it. I'm supposed to see our marriage counselor, solo, on the fifth -- at which time I sort of expect him to say, "Well, she doesn't want to continue with marriage counseling" -- which certainly would be enough of an impetus to say what I should say.

Folks, I have to say that it doesn't feel good to know you've all been through this kind of thing as well. This sort of betrayal just should not exist.

5454real:

No one is talking about the laws of reflection or refraction here. Both Bigger and Bufffalo have given you great advice. This is at best a trinary solution set. You know what you want, which makes it a binary solution. In or out, what will she do to support that?

God its scary to end a marriage in spite of what we believe, but sometimes it is necessary to save our own souls.

Damn brother, good luck!

You know, you all seem like really good people here -- why the hell would your spouses *do* this to you? What kind of horrid "Star Trek" creatures are burrowing into one ear and eating their way through to the other?

Believe me, I'm doing my best to hear you all, even if I don't respond to everybody's posts. I really appreciate everybody's concern and effort. I know you all get it -- and I'm sorry you do....

Brandon:

That's just it Smoky...you cannot "bluff"...you have to mean it, you have to follow through on whatever consequences you lay out for her.

I'm hearing that, loud and clear. It's really difficult -- I don't *want* to even *threaten* an end to the marriage (though *she's* certainly doing that), but doing so really can't be any worse than the current situation.

Dirk:

Hey Smoky,everytime I thought that my M was over, I felt relieved. It was like this weight was lifted off my back. I was ready to get on with my life and my kids.(she was surprised to hear that I wasn't going anywhere.)

It wasn't what I wanted, but sometimes we only have one choice.

If that's what it comes to, I sure hope it feels like a relief to think about my marriage being over, but... okay, I've said that I wasn't exactly happy in my marriage either, but I was happy to *be* married, and to be married to *her*. I mean, she's a lovely (if currently whacko) person -- she just happens to be doing things that should be heavily punishable by law. I can be angry with her, but I can't despise her or think badly of her.

But I do hear that I have to draw the line in the sand. I figure I'll do it sometime after my Saturday solo appointment with the marriage counselor. I don't actually expect him to say anything that will shed light on our situation -- it's more of a "getting to know you" meeting -- but at least I'll have a few more days to chew on all this and try to get up the strength to make my stand.

Buffalo:

Smokey....affairs are an escape from reality...they are rainbows, unicorns, and dancing elves....affairs are a fog induced, lie based behavior that is clouded in the bullshit we call a fog....until that fog (if it does at all) lifts for your wife....your marriage is over...until she realizes that there is not a "pot of gold" at the end of her rainbow....no white picket fence, either.....you need so assume it IS over...(your other option is to stay married to a wife that has a BF and is openly dating).....THAT is unacceptable to me - and should also be unacceptable to you.....

It is. And it's getting through to me that sitting on my hands has the same effect as condoning her choices.

Bro.....there is a long way between "filing" for a dovorce and the final hearing....(in Texas its at least 60 days or so)....If you were to file now...you would be sending her the message that you will NOT tolerate her behavior....papers are a HUGE reality check....and yes, Bro....your wife needs a reality check.....should your WW leave her AP and be willing to do the work necessary to "win you back" - you could always call off the attorneys and enter into "R"......if not......you are closer to ending the marriage she chose to leave...if this is an "exit affair" - a divorce would speed up your recovery process.

That's the silver lining, I guess.

My WW didnt pull her ass outta her fog until i "lawyered up"....the divorce papers were a major factor in her fog raising.....until she was looking at the papers...she stayed in her fog....

Was your wife talking about leaving the marriage? Or was she just hoping you wouldn't find out about the affair?

Which reminds me: I really wonder how much longer this would have played out -- and *how* it would've played out -- if I hadn't received that phone call on the tenth.

Dude.....i assumed my marriage was over...no faking on my part..none at all - i knew i was heading for a divorce.....i am a firm believer in the 180 process.....(i spent 2 months or so doing all the wrong things)...it is not designed to win your wife back....its goal is to help you to detach...and move on.

I'll be re-reading the 180 -- probably pretty frequently. Detaching is the part I'm just not doing very well.