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Just Found Out :
can't believe that I've been snowed

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Jomarion ( member #43659) posted at 11:33 PM on Monday, July 7th, 2014

JB, your courage is beyond words, not only in your courage to reconcile, but in your courage to post your story here for people like me to read and be helped by, in all its unbearable pain, grief, hope, strength, and belief in human goodness against all odds.

And it is your incredible strength that stands out for me in your words - wow, what an inspiration you are, what a testament to the human spirit you are both in your courage to trust, and in your honesty to face pain and deceit when that trust is destroyed.

What a special human being you are. What a gift you gave her.

Thank you for this post, for telling people like me. Basically I think most people are s---, but when I read of your generosity of spirit and trust, it renews my faith in human beings.

me:BGF, 54, American immigrant. one son. me and my ex get along great, the most amicable split imaginable!
him:WBF,43, Polish immigrant
together since 2006,
DDay:October28,2009,after his 3 teen kids push him to cheat with OW.
5 betrayed me

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2014   ·   location: UK
id 6863742
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 jb3199 (original poster member #27673) posted at 11:53 AM on Tuesday, July 8th, 2014

Thanks, everyone.

It feels a little weird to me to have this thread, because I prefer to try to help others....but I have to admit, typing this all out does give me some mental release. Maybe it is because I really started to believe that this couldn't happen to me anymore....because all of the talk on this site about a broken person "working on themselves" was happening right in front of me. Or so I thought. Now I have to look deep at myself, and see what I was overlooking/ignoring/denying/being totally oblivious to....or if I was simply duped by a professional.

If you tell her things that go through your head without using the brain/mouth filter, she'll know all about you and when she has successfully pressed your buttons. She is sly and devious as you have unfortunately learned. What stops her from using your honesty and openness against you? And what do you gain if the M is over, anyway?

The reason that I tell her these things is for a few reasons:

--I have not offered R, so I know that I am not doing this just for me. I am not showing her my pain, like after D-day#1, so she can see me hurt...and attain sympathy.

--While I cannot fix her, I do want her to get better---no matter what the outcome. I know that this is not my job, but if I can shed any light toward her path to recovery, I would like to do so. Obviously, I will not do this to any of my expense, but if she can *hear* what is going in in my train of thoughts, who knows? Maybe a little empathy might start to set in. Maybe she will simply discard or ignore this information, which will help her stay in a fucked up mindset. But either way, it will not affect me. I am on my own path...which as of right now, does not include her.

I know that nothing is 100% in this world. And the truth is, I would absolutely take her back this moment if I was absolutely certain that this was the end of her wayward behavior. If she finally dug deep enough to resolve her inner demons. But we all know that this is a ridiculous statement....there are no absolutes. I am way beyond that type of ignorant thinking. But, can she get better? Yes. Can she be the woman that I knew and loved for over 10 years of my marriage? Certainly.

Can I wait around and give her one more chance, like she is asking? For me, that answer is NO. I cannot wait any longer. I have ZERO idea of what my trust level in any future relationship is capable of at this point. Remember, I was at this point(or close to it) 3 years ago, and I made the CHOICE to recommit. To learn what I have now, has really made me question myself...and what I have "learned" along the way on SI.

If there is anything that I have learned, is that nothing is certain...when that certainty is in someone else's hands. We either stay guarded our entire lives, or we eventually take some leap of faith.

I can't take that leap again for quite some time.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4388   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 6864188
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Schadenfreude ( member #43075) posted at 1:11 PM on Tuesday, July 8th, 2014

Good for,you. You are exercising discretion. She'll never be anybody's counselor when she can't even keep her own self straightened out. You aren't looking to her for comfort and advice.

Answer to your question in my layperson opinion.....she's neither a professional nor did you engage in self delusion. She is, quite simply, the archetype,of addictive personality. If it's not alcohol, it's an affair..or both,,depending on how she feels during any given time of her life.

You've read the analogy about holes in a bucket that can never be filled as long as the holes,are there. No matter how hard you try. That's your situation as long, hard experience has proved. She will never be safe for you. Your detachment choice is the only safe choice for you.

posts: 892   ·   registered: Apr. 11th, 2014   ·   location: Midwest
id 6864228
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OK now ( member #14459) posted at 1:47 PM on Tuesday, July 8th, 2014

You gave her the precious gift of reconciliation 3 years ago and she threw it in your face. Such duplicity; so many lies, does your wife have any conscience?

She has no idea of the sacrifice and humiliation behind forgiveness, and offering to rebuild the marriage after such betrayal. The phrase fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me, could very well be paraphrased with regards to reconciliation.

Thumbs down to giving anymore chances to this serial cheater.

posts: 2062   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2007   ·   location: NC
id 6864267
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Skan ( member #35812) posted at 10:12 PM on Tuesday, July 8th, 2014

I just finally got a chance to catch up and read your entire thread. I am so sorry. So very sorry. This is the nightmare of everyone here who has hopes of R. That their WS will manage to go so successfully underground that the BS is snowed completely. That's a whole new level of agony and, quite frankly, unbelievable cruelty on the part of the WS. I hope that you are able to find a really good lawyer and put her trainwreck behind you.

Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012


posts: 11513   ·   registered: Jun. 11th, 2012   ·   location: So California
id 6865074
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Schadenfreude ( member #43075) posted at 10:16 PM on Tuesday, July 8th, 2014

And even if you did, for some reason, offer yet another R, you'd never be certain of her fidelity unless you locked her up somehow. She has, it seems, become quite a professional cheater able to hide her A's from you even though you've been there before.

Reconciliation here would be the largest leap of faith to date.

What is that saying about the triumph of hope over experience?

I don't know who coined that phrase, but he sure is right.

posts: 892   ·   registered: Apr. 11th, 2014   ·   location: Midwest
id 6865081
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 jb3199 (original poster member #27673) posted at 12:18 PM on Wednesday, July 9th, 2014

She is, quite simply, the archetype,of addictive personality. If it's not alcohol, it's an affair..or both,,depending on how she feels during any given time of her life.

Exactly. About as self-destructive as it gets.

The way that she explained it to me the other day, was that once she "discovers" an addiction, it is so hard to ever close that door. For example, I can understand the growing addiction to alcohol. I believe that once she continued to drink, the physical tendencies join with the mental ones, and therefore, the addiction is very strong.

But alcohol also warps the mind. And she was never promiscuous or unfaithful before alcohol. But it only took one drunken time to visit a website like AFF, to open a door that she still hasn't closed. Now grows a second terrible addiction.

So once she started on her sobriety(3 years now), she initially figured that the other desires would go away. And for her first 9 months of sobriety, she didn't need that validation, until some random douchebag gives her flattery. It turns out that she was just a ticking time bomb.

I am getting pissed typing this. How I can write this out so matter-of-factly, knowing that my WW has whored herself out to several men, just drains the hell out of me. My absolute infuriation about having no outlet for justice is what is eating me up. But that will be for some therapy down the road. I'm a big boy...I'll work through it.

To her background:

We met in our teens, and married in our early twenties. Absolutely with the "love conquers all" mindset. Jobs, home, children....the natural progression.

What I didn't even give a moment's thought....because in knew nothing about it....is how FOO issues can rear their heads any time in life. And if we are being realistic, EVERYBODY has some FOO issues---after all, what is "perfectly normal"? But in my WW's case, I am going to assume that abandonment is going to come to the forefront...if she digs deep enough into therapy.

Her father left her when she was eight years old...sitting on her porch step. He was going to get ice cream for them, I believe...never to return.

But my WW didn't pine over this like I "thought" she would. But what do I know? My parents were awesome. They were beyond awesome. I know this, because as I sit here as 46 year old man, I am still appreciating them more and more every day...and I have been without my mother for over 20 years, and my father for almost four. They were that great, so I don't have the horror stories of a bad childhood.

I know that my WW could have had it worse also, but having her daddy leave...and certainly blaming herself...has to surface somewhere again in life---right?

The one other huge factor...in my mind...was her loss of purpose. She became a maternity nurse...following in her mother's shoes...and was not only very good at her job, but was something she was VERY passionate about. She loved her work, and performed it until she could work no more. Like her mother(who passed away at 46), she has congenital heart disease, and has been disabled since 1999.

In the early years, it was easy to focus on two small children. But as they grew, and became less dependent, this is where I think everything started to slowly unravel. It took many, many years to slowly devolve, until it plunged into unfathomable areas.

What does this mean to me? I don't know. I'm an analytical person, so I want to make as much sense out of this nonsense in front of me. And I guess I want to see if (1) I am right with my armchair diagnosis, and (2) if she is going to tackle these problems head on this time...being that her only choices are to continue this path of destruction without me, or start digging....still without me. She has to do this for herself. She has exhausted the other avenues.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4388   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 6865605
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Schadenfreude ( member #43075) posted at 1:06 PM on Wednesday, July 9th, 2014

With a habitual cheater you don't even know with much certainty the extent of her cheating. And I'm raising that issue only because you don't know how often she has lied to you.

Without some clear idea of her predilection for lying -- how many lies and for how many years --- accepting anything she says or does consistent with her words requires a greater faith in human nature than I have.

What is being done to detach?

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 8:08 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)]

posts: 892   ·   registered: Apr. 11th, 2014   ·   location: Midwest
id 6865631
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norabird ( member #42092) posted at 5:28 PM on Wednesday, July 9th, 2014

((((JB))))

I recognize your urge for her to work on herself, your wish for her to get better, and finally become the type of person you have always been. But that urge is what has snowed you, I think. Your willingness to hope for that outcome. Your desire for her to improve and change and bceome a full person. That is what got me into trouble with my false R, though on a different scale. it comes from being trusting and loving and generous and empathetic. But I wish you would stop sending those attributes her way and send them all to yourself instead.

Do you think that by focusing on how she needs help, you avoid facing the pain of how she has hurt you?

Just thinking out loud, please know I'm not trying to judge. Only I know I could easily use this logic myself to give the ex in my own past a second chance, and that scares me; so it scares me to see you having the same thoughts as well.

I think you were right to trust again, by the way. That is who you are. it is noble and brave. That it will be a long time or never before you make that leap of faith again is its own type of loss but also I suppose its own type of wisdom.

Sit. Feast on your life.

posts: 4324   ·   registered: Jan. 16th, 2014   ·   location: NYC
id 6865935
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 jb3199 (original poster member #27673) posted at 12:27 AM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

I think you were right to trust again, by the way. That is who you are. it is noble and brave. That it will be a long time or never before you make that leap of faith again is its own type of loss but also I suppose its own type of wisdom.

Norabird,

I am a small business owner. And while I know that there are plenty of bad people out there, many more of them are good people. Our business does not have 260 security cameras that can detect if a person passes gas....it is just not who I am. Do I occasionally get burned? A little. But if I had to live the life of staring at those cameras, because I trust no one? I wouldn't live that way. I couldn't live that way.

But that doesn't mean that I am going to lie down and take it. Like my situation at home---while I would LIKE for my WW to get better, I won't be her caretaker. I put myself at the top of the priority list 3 years ago, and have done that again since last Thursday.

By the way---had a consult today with an attorney. Definitely not happy with being the breadwinner in New Jersey. Permanent spousal support---ouch. The only thing that I have going for me, is that I am willing to blow everything sky-high, if need be. I made sure that WW knew in no uncertain terms that a single mediated and represented divorce would be in both of our best interests....especially hers.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4388   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 6866527
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SisterMilkshake ( member #30024) posted at 1:07 AM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

(((jb3199))) I just read/found this thread, jb. I am so sorry. To say I am shocked would be an understatement.

I have no advice but wanted to let you know how much your advice and your support to me over the years was so appreciated. You are a fine and amazing man.

Again, I am so sorry you are going through this again and the pain and hurt that comes with it.

BW (me) & FWH both over half a century; married several decades; children
d-day 3/10; LTA (7 years?)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson

posts: 15429   ·   registered: Nov. 5th, 2010   ·   location: The Great White North USA
id 6866559
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yearsofpain25 ( member #42012) posted at 1:25 AM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

Hey jb. Wanted you to know that I continue to follow your thread but I'm at a loss of what to say. Honestly I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I know my sitch was/is very different that yours and most here. But it has certainly brought back some unpleasant memories for me. Not necessarily a trigger, more like remembering what the feeling was like to catch my mother the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, I lost count on how many, and then having to sit my father down a second time and so on to tell him. I remember vomiting before one of those sit downs. I remember the feeling changing to numbness, and then ultimately dead inside. I was already detaching after the first dday and kept going until I completely checked out of my FOO.

I know this is your WW, but I remember those sick feelings well. Good to see you getting out. I always wished my father had years before he did so that maybe we could have all gotten out of infidelity much sooner.

I empathize with you.

yop

"I remind myself of this. I am a survivor. I have taken all this world has dished out and am still here. So there is no reason to be afraid. Whatever happens, I will survive. So now onto living. It is time for me to thrive." - DrJekyll

posts: 4519   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2014   ·   location: Northeast US
id 6866575
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OK now ( member #14459) posted at 1:26 AM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

New Jersey. Permanent spousal support---ouch.

Supposedly this travesty of justice is going to be eliminated, just when I have no idea. Might like to research the progress towards freeing NJ from this ridiculous law.

After what your WW has done you should have the right to free yourself from her unfaithfulness without financial penalty.

posts: 2062   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2007   ·   location: NC
id 6866576
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swizzlestick03 ( member #30102) posted at 1:41 AM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

I am so sorry JB. You did everything right.

You will be in my thoughts.

Me: BW-36
Him: WS-35
D-Day #1: 16 August 2010
D-Day #2: 16 January 2011
One smallish kiddo.

posts: 620   ·   registered: Nov. 13th, 2010
id 6866587
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FrmrBH80124 ( member #42967) posted at 1:10 PM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

JB,

Been following this thread and I'm so sorry. I really wish I had some words to help ease your pain but I don't. Sending you strength!

ME - BH 45
Her - XWS 30
D - April 2010 - never looked back and good riddance.
Happily remarried!

Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are,

posts: 245   ·   registered: Apr. 1st, 2014
id 6866975
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steppingup ( member #42650) posted at 6:16 PM on Thursday, July 10th, 2014

JB3199... I am with you sir, I know that white hot rage. I unleashed it in WC the other day, was a sight to behold, I screamed at the top of my lungs, the women in the room including my WW could not handle it, all started to cry.

The RAGE is hard to quantify, the WS does not know how much Pain and Hate and Rage they create with their selfish and thoughtless acts.

For me the Lies are nearly 2x worse than the sex. We would all love to have sex, who wouldn't but the lies mean nothing is out of bounds, nothing is safe everything they do or say could be a big FUCKING LIE, and we will never know it.

Thats the Rage creator for me. The spouse was suppoed to be the 1 person in this world we were supposed to be able to trust 100%, now we cannot trust them at all. Nope, none.

posts: 1923   ·   registered: Mar. 3rd, 2014   ·   location: New York
id 6867403
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 jb3199 (original poster member #27673) posted at 11:12 AM on Friday, July 11th, 2014

Everybody----I can't thank you enough. It is humbling to have this support.

Supposedly this travesty of justice is going to be eliminated, just when I have no idea.

OK Now---not in my situation...if not my lifetime. This has been "in the works" for quite some time....and I expect no quick resolution of such. So be it. I would be in for the long haul on support anyway, due to the length of marriage. And while I understand that divorce courts try to be fair, and can only see what is in print in front of them, it just burns my ass at the lack of justice that infidelity brings. I am not saying that I want my WW to suffer, but the fact that infidelity....wait----REPEATED INFIDELITY....has zero bearing on the outcome of divorce...although it is the driving reason to the dissolution of our marriage.

I guess that is the primal part of me that is lashing out. Maybe I am not as evolved as I would like to think. The other part of the cruel injustice, is that I am coming to the realization that my WW will never have the empathy that I so desire her to have....because that would be the closest thing to justice in my mind----having my betrayer feel a large portion of the hurt that they caused. Again, I think that this is the primal part of me----wishing to inflict equal pain upon the one that has hurt me. And while I don't feel that this is wrong, it more than likely isn't conducive to my healing. I just have to keep moving on.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4388   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 6868327
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Schadenfreude ( member #43075) posted at 2:03 PM on Friday, July 11th, 2014

Don't know where in NJ you live. Can you like G Washington cross the Delaware? To escape permanent alimony if you are resident of PA or NY? Depends on laws of those states when you can tile after living there but it might be worth asking about.

posts: 892   ·   registered: Apr. 11th, 2014   ·   location: Midwest
id 6868452
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:44 PM on Friday, July 11th, 2014

Gently…

I see so much codependency in your posts…

Have you gotten any IC?

Have you been to an Al Anon meeting?

What I would fear is that although you might divorce then you won’t detach from her…

Look – it’s not that I intend to hurt or want to be brash… I might be placing you on a higher pedestal because I appreciate your contributions. But from day 1 on this thread I have seen comments (like the motherhood ones) that indicate codependency. Add to the alcoholism she’s dealing with, the length of the relationship and how alcoholics tend to suck others into their disease…

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 13184   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 6868509
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norabird ( member #42092) posted at 2:55 PM on Friday, July 11th, 2014

Maybe I am not as evolved as I would like to think.

No one is able to 'evolve' beyond being hurt by betrayal and by feeling the anger, the desire for justice, that comes out of it.

Why do you try so hard to keep to the high road, JB? I don't mean in your actions--I admire that, it is the only real option--but in terms of what you feel. Do you try to always control what you are feeling? I imagine that to be impossible, for any of us, no matter how evolved.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to feel the pain and the anger, to let yourself have those primal feelings; not acting on them, but acknowledging them and letting yourself pass through them.

I do wish there were justice but as friends tell me about my ex--he already lives in his own private hell. that has to be enough for us. Even though we may have wished we could release them from it and show them the way, it's just not possible and it's an unhealthy urge. You have to let her stay there and not concern yourself with her personal growth or lack thereof.

Sit. Feast on your life.

posts: 4324   ·   registered: Jan. 16th, 2014   ·   location: NYC
id 6868527
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