SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is not a guess but a fact proven by research. If not immediately most of those marriages end after two or three years. So, most men might stay initially but once the reality sinks in them they leave. I can't post the link but will find later the research and will post its title so one can google it. So, it's not a guess but I do guess that denying research might be a projection

These are just surveys , they tell you that "in the sample we took , there was this and there was that + here are some of our opinions" , they're not trying to understand or explain the phenomena they're studying and test and see if those explanations conform to reality...they just gather data , often times it's just anecdotal and quite unclear (therefore useless) data , and then they start making flamboyant claims based on ideology and personal bias.

I agree absolutely that surveys on infidelity can report only on that survey’s sample. What’s more, the survey taker generally has to assume the responders are telling the truth, and that’s not necessarily true.

Anecdotal data is far from useless. It's just that generalities based on anecdotal data simply can't be relied upon.

But surveys are often the best data we have, and they’re much better than guesses.

Here’s where you can find the data I refer to: http://www.dearpeggy.com/free-pdfs/help-for-therapists.pdf (Mods have OKed referring to dearpeggy.com, where there’s lots of good and free info).

Ms Vaughan states that 25% of her responders were male. At the time the responders filled out the surveys, 52% of men and 55% of women had decided to stay married, and 28% of men and 26% of women were undecided. She argues her data shows that the vast majority of the undecideds eventually decide to stay in their Ms, which means not just a majority, but a large majority, of BHes stay in their Ms.

MrSpock, You refer to research. What specific research? Where is it published? If it’s available of the ‘net, please give us the address.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:52 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

I have a number of concerns about relying on pride as a basis for decisions.

I was born with certain strengths and weaknesses, and I've accomplished certain things in my life.

Should I be proud of my achievements? My take is: no, I have no reason to be proud. All I did was make use of strengths that were given to me.

I guess I can think something good of myself to the extent that I use my strengths instead of throwing them away ... but I'm sure I've thrown some of my strengths away, so....

I've accomplished some cool things. I guess I could take pride in those accomplishments ... but I did what I did because I set some goals, worked to achieve them, and it happened that nothing kept me from reaching them. When things I have no control over align so I can accomplish a goal, I can't feel pride (though I definitely enjoy the results).

There are some types of projects I'm still top notch at. I'd match my skills with anyone in those areas. That's stuff I do well at because of 1) the skills I've been given, and 2) my desire to use them. I'm happy I had opportunities to use those skills, but pride doesn't seem appropriate here.

I worked to get raises, and I worked for praise from a number of manager who earned my respect, but my activities have all had a large element of doing what I wanted to do. I just don't see pride as much of a factor.

stayedwaytoolong,

What does 'pride' mean to you? Does it not come down to having certain internal standards and working to meet them? Doesn't working to please yourself play a large part in your 'pride'?

It sure does for me. Maybe that's why it's said that 'Pride goeth before the fall'.

Again, I'm not arguing against your decision, only your justification for it.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:09 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

Not accepting this is denying any type of statistics which also use scientific methods even if they are not "true sciences". Again, I suggest we wait until I post the research before making those generalizations. Those methods are the best frame we have for discussions and there are no others. And on the side note, science is also not an absolute truth. This is why a theory is valid until it's proven wrong and there is a new theory that replaces it. With the same logic of course we wouldn't be able to accept anything and there is no discussion whatsoever, no matter what we discuss.

I was in a no way denying that surveys and stuff like this could be useful in a non-rigorous common sense discussion ,it just doesn't tell very much (if anything) about how humans beings work in general . In most of the social science (there are some good fields that have developed) there are no "theories" (In the scientific sense of the word) ,as of yet .

It's just mostly just data gathering , non-reproducible and dubious "experiments" and lots and lots of personal opinions and ideology (a grandma's opinion is sometimes more valuable than a psych's) .

It is not even serious thinking (like say philosophy) , even less so scientific thinking that they're doing , because they don't even give a well defined terminology of the terms they use , they just throw words around.

I second what sisoon said about pride.

I agree absolutely that surveys on infidelity can report only on that survey’s sample. What’s more, the survey taker generally has to assume the responders are telling the truth, and that’s not necessarily true.

But if it supports the view of those who claim that most men reconcile or even that most reconciliations succeedd than that is correct and everyone is telling the truth. This is of course a true scietific and reliable approach. Besides, it's a know argument but this everything is calculated, the number of people that lie is not so high and the proffesionals know how to handle this. They have the proffesional tools to do this. So, it doesn't change signifficantly the whole picture.

Anecdotal data is far from useless. It's just that generalities based on anecdotal data simply can't be relied upon.

The same goes here. Theoretically, I could also claim that most successful reconciliation stories are nothing more than anecdotal data which is far from useless and that we have to assune that they speak truth while in reality it's not necessarily true (for many reasons). But I suppose this could not be possible because those who reconcile never lie but those who don't are always doing this

Here’s where you can find the data I refer to: http://www.dearpeggy.com/free-pdfs/help-for-therapists.pdf (Mods have OKed referring to dearpeggy.com, where there’s lots of good and free info).

Ms Vaughan states that 25% of her responders were male. At the time the responders filled out the surveys, 52% of men and 55% of women had decided to stay married, and 28% of men and 26% of women were undecided. She argues her data shows that the vast majority of the undecideds eventually decide to stay in their Ms, which means not just a majority, but a large majority, of BHes stay in their Ms.

Ms Vaughan, her site and the statistics she publishes are highly skewed and unreliable. It's not only the method as many other things including her view on infidelity that might pervert it and cause bias. It's the worse example one could bring. A simple search in google will prove it so I don't even need to post links. Besides, as I said it is not the question if they initially stayed or not. It's also a question what happened afterwards and whether they have divorced or not but I'm sure such researchers will find the reason why the divorce wasn't the result of infidelity but something different. That's also a know tactic they use

In the bottom line I think we will have to agree to disagree and let people do their own research on this subject. I will still post the research later, if possible with the link (given the mods will approve it) as well as the info about the unreliabilty of the statistics you brought above because I want the audience here to consider other possibilities before they form an opinion on this subject. I want also to post some additional data to back up this research and my claims. I promise to post this everything.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:09 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

In working with my IC a major stumbling block for me is the list of hurts I am carrying around. In my house, check. In my bed, most likely. Oral, check. Kissing me after oral check. Sex the same day, check. I could go on. She has said no one could forgive all of these things UNLESS, it is all wrapped up in one package and the whole thing is accepted if not forgiven. To try to forgive individually is a almost impossible. I think she is probably right.

The problem is I can't stop thinking about each act. It's like I have a ledger book in my head that I open everyday and this ledger is precious to me. Faulty thinking I know, but that's what's in my head.

She of course is none to happy about the divorce her posts. She does like you sisterM. She is not really one for these boards. I don't mind her reading here, but not sure I would want her posting and having a running discussion with her on a board which it probably would evolve into.

My take is to proceed with the move in about a month and see how I feel. I do plan to date but not get into any relationships. Frankly I have been married a long time and a relationship is the last thing I am looking for. She obviously is free to do the same. If she meets someone frankly again it might be an easier way out for me. I guess I would have to see if I got jealous or just didn't care. That would tell me a lot about what the hell I am thinking in my subconscious. Anyway she says she does not want to even date. Of course that can change

If I feel a spark for her after a few months separation I would look into retroville or something similar. I know it is offered in my area.

Again no playbook for this and am I sure I am doing the right thing? Hell no. But I do have to do something. In reading my posts I sound so pathetic, and that is so far from who I am. At least if anyone of my friends read this there is no way they would think the guy on this board is me

You may get back together (and thrive) after the separation ,or even after the divorce , it is possible , it happens , it even happened to some people here.

But do keep trying (going out together, date nights ...) until the the time of the separation comes.

The problem is I can't stop thinking about each act.

Please talk to your IC about EMDR therapy, it has been helpful to many members here in stopping the mind movies from constantly playing etc.

You can read about in in some of the posts here, for example http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/archives.asp?tid=484682 , http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/archives.asp?tid=537188 and http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/archives.asp?tid=400503 .

It might be helpful regardless of what happens with your marriage, and my advice to look into EMDR therapy is in no way meant to sway you one way or the other.

Best wishes

waited,

Just for the record, although I don't think pride should play a part in your decision (or anyone's), I do think you have other reasons for choosing D.

Even without the details, the majority of things you've written all add up to D being what you want, and that's what counts.

MrSpock,

I look forward to your listing your sources. How long will it take you to do so?

I've been at this more than 5 years, and a simple Google search brings up mostly crap, the majority of which aims at selling some magic remedy. I've found it extremely difficult to uncover, for example, peer-reviewed statistical studies of infidelity and its aftermath.

I read your response to Vaughan to say, in essence: 1) you don't trust her stats because you don't like her views on infidelity; and 2) some researchers are conspiring to let infidelity off the hook as a cause for D.

The first is a lousy reason for rejecting data. I don't understand why you even bring up the 2nd.

I think most readers of Help for Therapist and Their Clients realize it's based on a non-randomized survey and treat it accordingly.

Vaughan has published her survey and her raw data right there in her book. The survey is pretty much unbiased. Although one might find the categories arbitrary, there's relatively little ambiguity in the survey.

I see no reason to question her data, and yet that's what you do when you say her data is unreliable.

Vaughan says that something between 52% and 70% of the men in her sample stayed in their Ms. No reasonable person thinks that means between 52% and 70% of all BHs stay in their Ms - but her survey can possibly become more useful if other non-randomized surveys are published. Right now, it's among the best data I've found.

***********************************************

Sorry to be a hard-ass on this. When someone has a POV that I possibly disagree with and then cites unnamed research to support that POV, I damn well want to know what that research is, and I'm damn well entitled to know what that research is.

If you can't cite your sources, then write your post in a way that doesn't require you to cite your sources.

I your POV is similar to mine, I'll probably cut you some slack....

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:24 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

it's based on a non-randomized survey

The survey is pretty much unbiased.

You know, those things don't go together, right? The answers of a self-selected group of individuals who visit a site named www.dearpeggy.com can't be used to extrapolate to any other demographic. To imply this has any validity to the general population requires serious bankruptcy in the intellectual integrity department.

As distasteful as it is I'm going to have to quote one of those pesky peer reviewed articles published in a respected research journal by someone with actual academic credentials:

Extramarital sex is a particularly powerful predictor of divorce. This result is consistent with South and Lloyd's (1995) finding that in at least one third of divorce cases, one or both spouses had been involved with another person prior to marital disruption.

Amato, Paul R., and Stacy J. Rogers. 1997. “A Longitudinal Study of Marital Problems and Subsequent Divorce.” Journal of Marriage and the Family 59(3):612–24.

Given the frequency of divorce, 33% of all divorces for any given year for which we have data would exceed the 50% mark of any credible annual infidelity rate I have seen published, so it would appear that most marriages do not survive infidelity.

[This message edited by anothermr at 12:22 AM, August 21st (Sunday)]

The problem is I can't stop thinking about each act. It's like I have a ledger book in my head that I open everyday and this ledger is precious to me. Faulty thinking I know, but that's what's in my head.

I don't think a lot of people could shut a ledger like that one to be honest with you.

If one has the freedom to do so, I think the best path for every BS is to detach, see other people, and only choose the WS if they get a real sense of what is out there and still believe their WS is the best option for their future. The typical result is that as soon as the 'oneitis' clears up most BS's are horrified that they stuck it out so long.

Vaughan says that something between 52% and 70% of the men in her sample stayed in their Ms. No reasonable person thinks that means between 52% and 70% of all BHs stay in their Ms - but her survey can possibly become more useful if other non-randomized surveys are published. Right now, it's among the best data I've found.

Well, thanks! It's the best insight I was given into how one tries to explain the unexplainable (the bold one). I hope and quite sure it's not your interpretation because you seem to be a person that is more capable then the pseudo-scientific approach that I have marked there. If that's the case than better not to site HER survey and siting this survey of hers only shows how ideologically biased (worldview, perception, beliefs etc.) it is. With that I rest my case here.

Now, a few facts

1.More than 90% of divorces have infidelity in the background (Katie Crown) – but of course very few will admit this led to divorce rather than finding other reasons. Now, because this is legal (primary source of) information that requires less external (secondary) source so it is much less biased than the usual surveys that can be subjected to many misinterpretations base on the researcher's point of view, belief systems, ideology or financial interests.

2.50% to 60% marriages end in divorce after infidelity (If I remember correct it was Holmes, I will check it later) – this one is for both sexes.

3.The research I mentioned previously in the above comment was discussed in the NYT or NYP. Unfortunately I haven't stored it on my computer. It speaks about 70 percent of men that divorce a few years later down the road once the reality sinks in them. The rate is a little bit higher for men than the women but still the majority does not stay. It also sounds plausible and sound to me that the gender differences are not so striking. I have to Google the link so it will take me some more time yet the picture is clear.

To sum it up:

1.Anyway, when comes to raw legal data of primary sources it indicates that most couples at that or other stages divorce their cheating partner. This is the first data above and it is not based on external (secondary) sources thus it is less biased. Of course, if one really wants the information can be manipulated as well. However, it is more reliable and less prone to bias and manipulation so it is more reliable.

2.The other two examples are more prone to manipulation because they use less primary but secondary information sources. However, if you cross check it with the primary source of information, the first one, then this information sounds reliable. They are all more or less in the same category.

3.Further research is indeed needed but not to clarify whether most men (or women) stay in the marriages bur rather how much of them are leaving the marriage at the end. From the information above it ranges between 50 to 90 percent and must be investigated so we can get more exact data. However, from the primary sources it is clear that the divorce rate is anyway more than 50 percent and not less. So, it's maybe not the overwhelming majority (I haven't claimed this anyway) but it's still the majority – whether it's women or men

Last but not least: the 70 something percent of couples that stay might still be correct despite the data I brought because staying in the relationship does not mean one forgives or reconciles. Too many people exchange one neurosis for the other. It means they stay for the money, for the kids, for the reputation or worse than this because the alternative scares them. Just for curiosity Google this one; "My wife had an affair 50 years ago - but I still can't forgive her". Anyway, does it mean that all reconciliation stories are fake ones like that!? I don't think so! Are all reconciliation stories successful (with the Hollywood "happy end" nonsense)? Apparently not! The truth is somewhere in between.

In my opinion real reconciliation stories do exist I just believe it is not as common as one wants us to believe. I have read a lot of stories and I haven't found so much success there. Some sound really successful but in too many you see that they aren't. Besides of looking for the primary and secondary sources one should also look what motivates those researchers and organizations to publish the data. One should approach it with a critical mind. That's the essence and the true spirit of the scientific mind. I know my approach might be annoying or irritating for some people because I never take anything at face value. I never accept someone or something just as it appears or because someone claims to be a "researcher"; the way things appear are not always the way they are. There is a difference between appearance and essence.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:52 AM, August 21st (Sunday)]

And some more

Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered: 31%; in other words, 69% of marriages fail and end in divorce after infidelity (from statistic brain research institute + infidelity facts). Now, this is not a primary source but fits into the primary source statistics above.

This is from Fox New Magazine and is another excellent example of how statistics are manipulated and biased:

"More than 50 percent of marriages can survive infidelity. Although the relationship may break up from other issues in the future, many couples are surprised when they find that they can stay together after an affair"

The terminology here, how should I say, is quite interesting. The marriages "DON'T" but "CAN" survive. Yet, if they don’t that's not because of the affair but the other issues. This is basically first shooting an arrow and then drawing the target. With such kind of argumentation I can get any result I want.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:45 AM, August 21st (Sunday)]

Vaughan's research is mostly from the 80's. Maybe entirely from the 80's. I don't know how relevant those stats are anymore.

I have read similar numbers as Spock is quoting. This is what I have gathered (sorry no sources): a third of marriages survive infidelity after 3 years or so. Roughly half of those marriages are considered "happy" by the survey respondents. R is a longshot under the best of circumstances. Look at the R forum here and see for yourself. It ain't all sunshine and rainbows.

We all tend to twist these things around and look for what we want to see.

We betrayed folks try to cope with this stuff as best we can. We rationalize why we stay and sometimes it's hard to bullshit yourself. There's the constant wondering if this is how you want to live your life. It's not just pride but self respect. I understand where WWTL is coming from. I can't tell him to R or D, but I damn sure understand his reasoning and thoughts about separation or D.

We all tend to twist these things around and look for what we want to see.

We betrayed folks try to cope with this stuff as best we can. We rationalize why we stay and sometimes it's hard to bullshit yourself. There's the constant wondering if this is how you want to live your life. It's not just pride but self respect. I understand where WWTL is coming from. I can't tell him to R or D, but I damn sure understand his reasoning and thoughts about separation or D.

Spot on. SFTK, has nailed it.

"It turns out that the highest divorce rate was among couples who had secret infidelity, with an 80 percent divorce rate at the five-year follow-up. In contrast, in couples where the affair did come to light, the divorce rate was 43 percent. The couples that did not have infidelity had a 23 percent rate of divorce"

Source:

"Infidelity and Behavioral Couple Therapy: Relationship Outcomes Over 5 Years Following Therapy"; Couple and Family Psychology: Research and Practice - © 2014 American Psychological Association; American Psychological Association 2014;

Researchers

1.Rebeca A. Marín

University of Washington

2.Andrew Christensen

University of California Los Angeles

3.David C. Atkins

University of Washington

This research was also mentioned in the women's health magazine

Now, a few interesting conclusions

1.This is common knowledge also here on SI: people who continue to keep their affair in the dark are not doing this to spare their betrayed spouse's feelings and suffering but merely out of selfish interests to protect themselves (and continue to cake it). Moreover, by their dishonesty they continue to exhibit wayward behavior. Not actively cheating does not mean you aren't a cheater anymore. It's just that you don't cheat now. In fact, with 80% divorce it's among the highest contributors to divorce due to infidelity.

2.Combining both, the revealed and none revealed (secrete) affairs the average divorce rate is somewhere about the 60% of the marriages affected by infidelity.

3.The couples that do not have infidelity have only a 23 percent rate of divorce. This research that is done by researches with true credentials and appropriate background is also very close to the first source I stated, namely that of which states that about 90% of all marriages affected by infidelity end in divorce.

4. So, if we combine all the sources, including the one brought by AM, then the revealed affairs have also a divorce rate above the 50 percent. Add to this the fact that once revealed many of the betrayed spouses would choose to divorce than anyway the divorce rate of the revealed affairs would raise above the 50 percent divorce rate for the exposed affairs. This is especially true for men as all of those researches show that men divorce more after infidelity than women on average. It's not a huge difference but still significant. think I can rest my case here too.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 9:46 AM, August 21st (Sunday)]

1985 that was an amazing post.

WWTL,

It is more than just pride or principle. It's re-evaluating everything about ourselves and considering some of our core beliefs may be possibly wrong. It's a tough process. Our ego is our worst enemy in this case because there is absolutely nothing we can do to erase the history. Like 1985 says, it's a battle only you can resolve.

We betrayed folks try to cope with this stuff as best we can. We rationalize why we stay and sometimes it's hard to bullshit yourself.

Uuummm, no! Please speak for yourself, stayedforthekids, because this BS doesn't rationalize "why" I stayed nor do I have to bullshit myself.

I use to rationalize pre d-day "why" I stayed but since d-day I have decided that I am going to be authentic and I strive to live my life as authentic as possible every single day. I have dumped my unhealthy coping mechanisms so I don't need to rationalize and bullshit myself.

I feel that is rather insulting to many BS's that do the hard work on themselves to stop their co-dependent behaviours and other unhealthy coping mechanisms. Of course reconciliation isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Neither is divorce.

As far as data and stats, I really don't have any fucks to give about that. The only marriage data/stats I am interested in is mine. Who the fuck cares what 70% of others are going to do or does? *shrug* Not me.

I agree with you, still-living, that 1985's post was excellent. waitedwaytoolong does still love his wife. That is the main reason I would encourage him to try Retrouvaille.

I can't respond to everything, but one poster asked Do I love her? the answer is yes. ~ waitedwaytoolong page 2, 7th post down of this thread

ETA: I wanted to add that whilst reconciliation and divorce isn't all sunshine and rainbows, no marriage is all sunshine and rainbows, even those not touched by infidelity.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:17 AM, August 21st (Sunday)]

Ok great debate there people. It's moot from the beginning. Forget the validity of the sample or analysis...[italic] It doesn't matter whether 1% or 99% of BH's reconcile. We aren't talking about them.[/italic]

We are here to support WaitedWayTooLong, and his decision is to separate.

WWTL, It's been 5 years. I think if you were primarily pride or ego driven you would have bailed long before now. How long have you been in IC? It takes more than just time, it takes time working at it. You do what it takes to heal yourself. Then if down the road you choose to reconcile with your ex, you will do it as a whole person. Being cheated on is a traumatic blow to the soft underbelly, it doesn't matter how tough or capable one is in other aspects of one's life, if you care then betrayal will hurt. Wounds must be treated and then given space to heal.

WWTL

Love is very important. I could go with you into the discussion of the concept of love to see if that's really what there is but that's not what I want to do. Yet, I do suggest you spend some time to understand it.

What I want to say is following. Love is by far not the only aspect of the marriage. There are many, many, others. One of them is wisdom. That's important to balance love because otherwise it's naive and self destructive. The same goes for love that balances wisdom.

There is also compassion, not only for your spouse and children but also towards yourself. Your were living five years of hell. You gained now wisdom. That's admirable. Now, it's time to be compassionated and loving towards yourself. Forgive yourself for making those mistakes. If this is mandatory for a WS, than it is even more so for the BS

Giving your wife a second chance she does not deserve despite the mistakes you've done was extremely loving and compassionated towards her. Now, it's time to walk and be loving and compassionated towards yourself.

Don't listen to anyone that after five years asks you to inflict some more pain to yourself. Don't listen to those who ask you only to be compassionated with your wife but hate yourself. Not wise, not possible to love your wife this way

Now, as you part your ways, remember that while you are compassionate with yourself it doesn't mean you hate your wife. Sometimes compassion is and must be sharp as sword. By letting go you are are compassionated towards her to and help her to begin the same process.

You can have an amicable divorce and it does not have to turn ugly. If your wife knows what true love and compassion is she will reciprocate the same way and let you go. If not it's not you but her that is now not compassionate towards herself

Here is a different perspective for you.Don't ask wether you love your wife and would be better with or without her but what's the most wise, loving and compassionated thing you can do, give and grant yourself. You deserve that kind of love not less and not more than your wife deserves yours. That by definition also means to be loving and compassionated towards your wife and children

As to the attack on SFTK all I can say is WOW, just, WOW. The inability of some people to deal with different and opposing views (that are expressed in a respectful way as standing opposed to those that attack them) is mind blowing. It only reassures me that everything he wrote is spot on. Wanted to write much more than this but drank some cold water, counted to ten and decided that sometimes silence says much more than some words.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:15 PM, August 21st (Sunday)]