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If I were trying to understand a BH, I think I would give preference to what other BH’s advise.

BA’s BH desperately wants to extract some payback towards OM, which I understand completely, but BA is refusing to support him and by doing so is putting OM ahead of BH, AGAIN. No wonder he doesn’t trust her or share things with her.

IMHO, BA’s problems are mostly in her mirror, but she is still casting blame towards her BH.

BA’s BH desperately wants to extract some payback towards OM, which I understand completely, but BA is refusing to support him and by doing so is putting OM ahead of BH, AGAIN.

That's not "putting OM ahead of BH". Are you kidding? The guy is bogged down in revenge fantasies and who knows WHAT might happen if he acts them out. The best case scenario if he continues on this path is that it could result harassment charges, which would be a financial burden to the entire family to defend. At the worst, violence could ensue.

Yeah. I get it. It's understandable. We all have our revenge fantasies. I personally have one where every OW who fucked my husband spontaneously combusts and all at the same time. But how crazy would I have to be to act on that? This BH's revenge fantasies shouldn't be encouraged. He needs to get some therapy with someone qualified to help him put those fantasies in perspective.

That's not "putting OM ahead of BH". Are you kidding?

No, I'm completely serious. It's clear that you nor BA understand BH's. When he wanted to just go talk to OM's boss, BA discouraged it, even though her BH told her he NEEDED some form of payback ... THAT is most definitely putting OM's well being ahead of the NEEDS of her BH. Honestly, BA should be helping her BH find an acceptable way to help him with this issue, rather than discount his NEEDS in favor of protecting OM.

The best case scenario if he continues on this path is that it could result harassment charges, which would be a financial burden to the entire family to defend. At the worst, violence could ensue.

... and this proves again you don't understand BH's. Outing OM to the OBS, family, friends, "boss", etc. is pretty standard post D-Day advice. Why should the OM NOT suffer some consequences for his actions? The BEST case scenario he gets some satisfaction and a chance to reclaim some of his self-respect and violence is definitely NOT the WORST. Hell, if BH played it perfectly, he could piss off OM into taking a swing at him ... now THAT would be sweet and a BH wet dream ... hardly the worst.

Don't misunderstand, not all BH's have this NEED, but those that do should be supported by their WW.

I understand this site doesn't particularly advocate differences between how the sexes respond to infidelity, but from my own experiences and observations, there is a HUGE difference. It's exactly why I don't respond to BW/WH situations, as I have no well of experience to draw from

If you go back and reread BA's original post, you'll see she already has most of the answers to her questions/issues, she just doesn't like those answers, so she continues to do the same old song and dance over and over, while expecting different results.

Her BH wrote her off years ago. He's firmly in "staying for the kids" mode and is just stringing her along through whatever means until the kids are grown ... and remember, she is the one that caused this change in his perception of her and their M going forward, plus this was further compounded by the OM being a friend/acquaintance of both spouses and their circle of friends/acquaintances, which makes this a greater hit to his self-esteem and much more difficult to R. It also makes the OM's intrusion PERSONAL and further explains WHY revenge is so important to him.

[This message edited by ButAnyway at 11:20 PM, Friday, September 24th]

Why should the OM NOT suffer some consequences for his actions? The BEST case scenario he gets some satisfaction and a chance to reclaim some of his self-respect and violence is definitely NOT the WORST. Hell, if BH played it perfectly, he could piss off OM into taking a swing at him ... now THAT would be sweet and a BH wet dream ... hardly the worst.

Pure fantasy. In practice, people who want to fuck with the AP will be risking harassment/stalking charges depending on what actions they take. Further, there's no guarantee that the betrayed party would prevail in a physical confrontation or that a physical confrontation might not escalate to gun/knife play and even death.
What you're advocating is basically illegal.

Her BH wrote her off years ago. He's firmly in "staying for the kids" mode and is just stringing her along through whatever means until the kids are grown ...

Which is another good reason for the OP to get an attorney and pull the plug. You're the BH expert, right? And you're telling her that there's no hope so it must be true.

What you're advocating is basically illegal.

Fantasy? BS ... it depends on what part of the country you live in. I am sooo happy that I don't live in a place with a criminal legal system that has such a wussified view of basic right vs. wrong.

Which is another good reason for the OP to get an attorney and pull the plug. You're the BH expert, right? And you're telling her that there's no hope so it must be true.

Oh, I agree ... as I said, I don't believe in "staying for the kids". I'm just trying to explain BH's mind set. Although, I believe he would be so much happier with D. I fully believe kids are better off being "from" a broken home than living "in" one.

However, I do understand his plight ... she cheated and humiliated him in his social circle, and she'll likely get the kids, house, CS, alimony and half of the assets. It SUCKS to be a BH with kids with today's "Family" laws ... especially with WW's who've convinced themselves that they're the victims.

[This message edited by ButAnyway at 1:29 AM, Saturday, September 25th]

Here’s the thing about my lack of support for FURTHER revenge on OM, ButAnyway. There have already been consequences for OM. He was summarily terminated from his job and was never allowed to return to the office. Belongings mailed to him. He was a higher up executive, it was definitely a very embarrassing situation for him. This was 4 years ago, we’re not just after DD. He’s now in another state at a different job, so that is the boss he’s considering approaching. Like I said before, he reached out to every new co-worker that he could and talked shit about OM to tell them what kind of person he is. I haven’t overtly tried to stop him from that, but it never stops. It doesn’t even stop with OM, he targets everyone who was connected to him professionally as well. I feel like it makes him look crazy to others, even though I understand why he’s doing it, others won’t. These thoughts and schemes completely dominate his mind. I know I caused this, I get that. But at this point I feel like the only one suffering from his continued fixation on this is him. He does listen to me at times when I try to give him constructive advice about this, but not always.

What stands out to me the most from ButAnyways posts is when you said he wrote me off years ago and he’s just in this for the kids. I believe that’s likely true, but admit I still hold out hope and I grab onto the tiniest signs and hold on for dear life. I get hope when he speaks to me about what furniture to order and I guess any of the moments where he’s not in the depths of his anger. At this point I’ll attend the MC session but all signs point to it going nowhere. I guess I still go back and forth about whether I should just stay for the kids too snd stop pushing him to get unstuck, but deep down I don’t feel that’s not the right decision. But to leave, while I think it’ll help him emotionally once I’m not around, it would result in the kids not being with him all the time. We won’t contest custody, I’ve already told him he can keep the house. He’s put so much work into it I wouldn’t ask him to leave.

Lastly, OM is not in our circle of friends at all, he was only connected to both of us through work. ChamomileTea thanks for your advice too.

Reading through the whole thread a few things are clear:

- Infidelity is a deal breaker for him, but would never tell you that because...

- He refuses to pay the consequence of your decision to cheat of losing his kids 50% of the time and probably paying you alimony/child support

So with those two things said, the only thing that would be fair in this situation would be for you to give him full custody in the divorce and for you to not take alimony. He can still give you visitation as he sees fit, but he no longer has to keep up the charade of telling you he is for reconciliation. This is just as fair a situation as the one you put him into by cheating.

BrokenAsh,

You wrote, My father cheated on my mother and I hated him for it for so many years. I’ve detested cheaters ever since, I mean everyone does, but my hatred was other level because of my dad. The fact that I allowed myself to cheat sickens me.

That spoke to me my W would have said the same thing about her dad who put her Mother through decades of pain with his heartless cheating.

But at the same time my W witnessed my Father inlaws infidelities and while on a conscious level she hates it at a deeper level it turns her on. Hate is not the opposite of love it turns into it more easily than indifference.

I also think my W was so afraid that her Mother would find out and say really horrifying things to her.

Was the OM more like your Dad than your BH?

BrokenAsh,

Your BHs revenge is exposure, I thought it was much more violent than that.

Exposure is merely reporting the news, like so and so is a bank robber, it is a consequence the OM deserves for the rest of his existence. And yes reporting him to his new boss is part of that.

More productively your BH should investigate other affairs OM has had and expose them to the betrayed spouse, perhaps they can do the dirty work for him. Or hire a prostitute with HIV to seduce OM.

Survrus,

I’m not sure if OM was more like MY dad, but he was more like a dad to me than BH. He was a good deal older and I definitely wanted his approval. My dad was absent quite a bit when I grew up, he wasn’t one to give much credit for our successes so I’m sure my A had a lot to do with my issues with my dad. Why I would repeat behavior that hurt me so much is still something I’m not sure about. I’m still in the process of learning about how my childhood issues contributed to what happened in IC.

Lurkster,

Giving full custody to BH is not even something BH would want as he knows it would kill the kids. That would never be an option. I wouldn’t ask for alimony either. We both earn a similar amount so other than a 50/50 split of the children’s things, there’s no money to fight over.

Maybe there is a way to live in the same house without a true relationship if I can figure out a way to stop having expectations of more. I don’t think I’m a victim at all, as ButAnyways said, I just don’t want my kids to continue to have 2 miserable parents. Neither of us is able to be fully present with this lurking in the background. Our minds are distracted by our misery when we should be fully focused on the kids. There’s never any overt yelling or other signs of discontent in front of them, it’s just the absence of things. I’n sure they notice that too though.

These thoughts and schemes completely dominate his mind. I know I caused this, I get that. But at this point I feel like the only one suffering from his continued fixation on this is him.

I have to agree. And at best, sticking it to the OM again will only be a short fix. What next, then?

But the dreams of revenge are something he can control, in a situation where he has lost so much control. I get that too.

Big sigh…

Did you ever write a no contact letter to OM?

Rambler - no I never did but there was never any contact since DD. Neither has tried to reach out to the other. BH tested me earlier by using a fake email address to pretend he was OM but I went right to BH to tell him about it every time.

That may be a way to close this off. These are very common in reconciliation. It may be a way for you to team against OM with your husband.

If memory serves, the A was 4 years ago and no contact since then. At this point a No Contact Letter could fairly be considered contact.

BrokenAsh. I said it before and I will say again. . .you need better care for yourself. You continue to ruminate about things that a better therapist would have addressed or would have told you that they can't help you any longer.

The fact that you still seem to be so hard on yourself yet at the same time include a lot of, "but," in your statements about the A, your husband,etc. This tells me you have not processed a lot of the past 4 years. I don't see your current IC is doing much and think you need someone better trained and qualified.

All things being equal I see you and your H stuck in a miserable state. One of you needs to be healthy enough to say this is not working and we (both) need to try something different. At this point you are just running out the clock on your lives. I'd suspect some form of distance would help one of you finally admit that this M is not working and can never work wothout major work with a good therapist.

Sorry you are stuck in toxic and dysfunctional marriage. M end all of the time and everyone manages to survive and thrive. Maybe suggesting moving towards a D is what is best for everyone right now. Actually doing the steps to make it happen.

Not every M survives infidelity nor should it.

I wish you the best.

Agree ChamomileTea that a letter now would be contact after this long. I’m sure OMW would not appreciate it.

Today, BH asked to go for a walk while kids were at school. Hugged me after and asked for assurance that I’d never blow up our family this way again. This was after I had a bad night last night at a gathering to which I left early because I was unable to put up the false front. Not sure if they’re related but of course his actions today give me hope. This is the circle I find myself in but moments like today are very rare anymore.

Today, BH asked to go for a walk while kids were at school. Hugged me after and asked for assurance that I’d never blow up our family this way again. This was after I had a bad night last night at a gathering to which I left early because I was unable to put up the false front. Not sure if they’re related but of course his actions today give me hope. This is the circle I find myself in but moments like today are very rare anymore.

It might seem "rare" that he's willing to connect with you, but from here it looks like a pattern. He basically treats you like shit until he thinks there's a chance you might actually be thinking about leaving, then.. he draws you back in.

We recently made promises to each other to help build trust back on both sides (I forgot to mention he’s a mad hatter and he had revenge sex with a distant mutual friend of ours several months after DD). I forgave that right away because he confessed it right away and he seemed to be in a place afterward where he was ready to heal snd work towards R, but it didn’t last. He’s broken those promises we made to each other (involving internet usage) snd got very nasty when confronted about it. He brings up how bad I made him feel, how I probably do things too and that it’s just not going to work out for us. He often says how unfair it is that this decision is all on his shoulders and he’s been treated bad his whole life and has nothing to give. I always acknowledge how I caused this pain but reiterate that I love him and want to R more than anything.

Here's where I'm going to remind you that your BH is no choirboy. He has also broken his vows and not just in the revenge sex after DDay, but also by screwing around on the internet. So, have you two dealt with HIS character flaws and boundary issues? I'm suspecting not because he appears to still be in full-time victim mode.

I'm going to say something that's probably going to be controversial, but I do think there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to groveling. When a WS is sincerely remorseful, they work really hard to empathize with how their BS is feeling. And because they're so very sorry for what they've done, they find it hard to establish boundaries on what kind of treatment they're willing to expect. This guy has lashed out at you already with revenge sex and internet cheating, then... four years of false R on his part where he keeps you at arms length and then reels you back in whenever he notices his grasp on you slipping. At a certain point, I think a WS needs to take off the hair shirt and go back to expecting reciprocity. If R isn't about returning to a mutually satisfying partnership then what the hell is the purpose of it?

Like I said earlier, I think you'd do well to give it another year, that is if your BH is willing to make an effort. If not, I'd go ahead and get my ducks in a row with an attorney. Here's the thing though (and I wouldn't say this to a new WS), but you've been doing the work now for four years and it's not working. So, why not try something new. Why not strip off the hair shirt and start demanding an equal role in your marriage? Your BH has had plenty of time to punish you... and he has, in spades. Meanwhile, you've straightened out your mind and your moral compass in therapy, correct? Try changing YOUR attitude to reflect it. You've worked hard so you can have some self-respect and dignity, right? Why not ACT LIKE IT? Confidence is attractive. Strength is sexy. When you start acting like a person who DESERVES to be treated like an equal, it might come as a shock to your BH at first, but... he's also going to be reminded of WHO YOU ARE and what your value is. When you act like all you are is a cheater, doesn't it stand to reason that all he sees is a cheater? And honestly, what colossal hypocrisy on his part. It's like he thinks there's one set of rules for you and another for him. My point is that we are each the arbiter of our own worth. When we believe that we have value, we don't tolerate mistreatment. But there's also something magical that happens when we believe we have value, right?... other people start seeing it too.

I don't think your BH really believes that he can lose you. But, he IS losing you.. a little more every day. We can debate about whose fault that is.. yours for cheating first or his for his refusal to get on board with R, but it really doesn't matter. The relationship can't tolerate any more stonewalling, and loss of love is the price. Before the love is gone and you just don't care anymore, maybe try something different... forgiving yourself and demanding a better marriage.

The purpose of a no contact letter is for the WS stand up for the BS and the marriage. it is also used to prevent many of the things you are now going through.

You asked for a possible way to help him move forward.