SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Old timer here, and you may not like what I have to say, but.... Here goes.

Your H was a broken man before you had your A. He has with the little you described, unresolved FOO issues, that he is reluctant to deal with and put to bed, he likes to fall into the victim role, which is totally unhealthy. He was mad because you had a second child? Did you trick him into getting you pregnant?
My point is this relationship had some pretty big issues that were rugswept by both of you from the get go.
The A was the straw in this situation, and the camel probably can't be put back together especially if the person that is responsible for rebuilding is busy sitting to the side being angry about it being broken.

R is hard as hell, and that's when both partners are 150% committed to rebuilding, and doing it in a healthy way is challenging, but it can be done. But it seems your H isn't willing to his fair share of the work. The work he needs to do to fix his own shit, having an RA is not a healthy response to an A. You were willing to work through it though, he was probably hoping you wouldn't.

You two are the example of what a loving M is for your kids. You two are the example of what we tolerate, and how we expect people to show us love and respect. It's not a healthy example in your home. Your kids would be way better off in the long run with at least one parent that is happy and healthy, and sister it looks like it falls to you.

One thing going through all of this taught me, is that no matter how hard we try, we can never make another person do something they are unwilling or unable to do on their own.

See an attorney, learn your rights. Start thinking about your future. You and your kids deserve better than being tolerated.

^^^ 100.

Please try to understand the internal conflict within your BH. He feels anger/rage at OM for blowing up his world, but feels he got away without retribution. When he chose to attempt R with you, there was little he could do to you to regain his self esteem … hence the RA, which is where our stories separate.

But he still feels a need to strike back at OM to regain some of his self respect. My OM was 4 states away, so I’ve never gotten the chance to confront him directly (only by phone on DD + 12 hours).

I’ll share some recent insight here. I’m 14 years past DD and when I seen the severe flooding in the northeast this week, which occurred right where OM lives, my first instinct, and still is, was hoping to find the OM on the victim’s list. Keep that in mind … for your BH, this shit will NEVER go away.

FWIW, this isn’t my first rodeo … in my previous M, I D’d my WW and healed within weeks/months. This time I chose to R and it’s still raw at 14+ years.

Think about that.

There were times when my BH could see it coming based on texts he saw and warned me that things could go wrong if I didn’t put up some boundaries. I was initially good at those boundaries and thought I was able to navigate the situation.

My guess is this is a big part of his anger and hurt. He saw the train heading for a crash and you ignored him. Obviously you weren’t good with the boundaries as the affair took place and went on for months. The AP was fired. Did this blow up your work situation also? If it became public, that’s a whole new layer of humiliation for him.

He couldn’t stop the affair even though he tried. He had an affair on his own. This all will affect him and the way he feels about himself which wasn’t very good even before the affair. I think 13 years has been a little tone deaf in blaming the victim, but right in the sense that if he isn’t all in true R will never happen. That was true in my case. I was secretly hoping that she would cheat again so I could get a mulligan and divorce her on the spot which I thought I should have done in the first place

This was not healthy. She was walking on eggshells waiting for the shoe to drop. Where before the affair she was a true partner who I listened to and respected, after I didn’t care and she was terrified of making a wrong move. She wouldn’t even pick out a restaurant and deferred to me on everything. I actually hated that.

At some point too much damage is done. This is no way for either of you to live.

You say you love him, but the reality is you put another man first, and though subtle, your writing feels like you have no respect for him. Is it love keeping you, or the fear of leaving the status quo.

but she's got her act together now and is doing the work.

I'm not so sure.
She wrote a lot of good things but statements like "I am unable to change him" and "I want R, but for it to be authentic" indicate also that she is trying to control the outcome instead of accepting that R is a gift she does not deserve nor he may be able to give.

OP your focus should be becoming a safe and self-aware person who finds her validation from within and works to live that out every day. Those actions will be self evident and provide the only path to building trust. You will become a better person whether or not he is capable of accepting you. I wish you well.

BA, please excuse the brief threadjack.

WWTL, I read here long before I registered and I wanted to say from one BH to another, you have my RESPECT!

None of us deserved this, but you gave it every chance possible and in the end were honest and true with yourself about your situation.

Please read the book I suggested if you have not.

The fact he is still there does say a lot. The fact you stayed also says something.

She wrote a lot of good things but statements like "I am unable to change him" and "I want R, but for it to be authentic" indicate also that she is trying to control the outcome instead of accepting that R is a gift she does not deserve nor he may be able to give.

Control? It sounds like healthy boundaries to me. She can’t change him. The pursuer dance needs to stop. It’s unhealthy and damaging to both of them.

Agree with Tush and 13. I’m sorry, OP. I’ve been where you are. Have you spoken with your IC about why you stayed in the marriage where you were treated like that by your husband? Why you had an affair instead of leaving? Any family of origin or trauma history? The wayward forum could be a great resource for you to navigate some of this stuff and two other threads: Madhatters and Former Waywards Not in Reconciliation.

Unlike others here, I think there are more practical reasons for your husband not willing to divorce.

If you have young children, he probably doesn’t want to lose time with or share custody of them and doesn’t want to pay you child support. He may also have consulted with a lawyer and determined it’s cheaper to keep you then to cut you loose.

Just as you weren’t willing to sacrifice the benefits of your married life to have a sexual relationship with your boss, your husband is trying to have it both ways as well.. he wants to keep the benefits of marriage without making any difficult choices.

I think it’s time you had an honest conversation with your husband, not about whether to reconcile or divorce, but what each of your hopes and expectations are for the future and what you need to do to get there.

I can't tell you what's going on in your relationship. Yours are the boots on the ground. What I can tell you though is that everyone deserves a happy life and if your BH isn't willing to work with you in order to accomplish that, you would be wise to consider moving on with your life. There are threads on here where this shit goes on for twenty, thirty and forty years. While it's true that it typically takes two to five years for real healing, some people just don't have any forgiveness in them. It's possible that what passed for love in your household was actually "object love", ie. MY wife, MY sex partner, MY possession. And when it's "object love", there will be NO RELIEF from the contempt you're seeing. When it's "object love", you are tainted... forever tainted. It's hard to believe, but yes, there are some people who will live with the very thing they despise for decades so as not to have to give up any of their other possessions; house, cars, kids, etc.

(I forgot to mention he’s a mad hatter and he had revenge sex with a distant mutual friend of ours several months after DD). I forgave that right away because he confessed it right away and he seemed to be in a place afterward where he was ready to heal snd work towards R, but it didn’t last. He’s broken those promises we made to each other (involving internet usage) snd got very nasty when confronted about it. He brings up how bad I made him feel, how I probably do things too and that it’s just not going to work out for us.

You can clearly SEE that this is NOT about character for your BS. If it was, he couldn't have gone through with the revenge cheating. If he believed in Fidelity for you, he'd have applied that belief to himself as well, and even if he messed up and did something rash while he was hurting, he'd feel badly enough that he wouldn't follow up with all this internet malfeasance. Nope, the rules on fidelity were just for you, not him. And THAT should be speaking volumes to you about HIS character. No one deserves to be intimately betrayed. No one. There is never an excuse good enough for cheating.

Four years is a long time, and while I would agree that sometimes real healing can take longer, there's no effort being made on the part of your BS. You have no guarantee, and frankly, quite a lot of evidence to the contrary, that this situation will improve. I think if I were you, I'd continue on with IC and start focusing on self-forgiveness and absolution regarding shame (look for TED talks online by Brene Brown). Set yourself a goal for complete healing in five years. You know, as a BS, that's the goal I set for my own healing, and it really did help me to put a cap on it. In this remaining year, while you're working out the last of your issues, talk with your therapist also about the appropriate reciprocation we should all expect in our primary relationship. Fix your picker so that you never settle for less than you deserve. Put your ducks in a row so that you have an exit strategy and the resources to carry it out. Then, if your BH is still treating you like shit at the five-year mark and has made no moves toward achieving healing within the relationship, get an attorney and pull the plug.

Yes. You fucked up. But you don't have a time machine and you can't fix what happened. Don't spend your life in a dead-end relationship without true partnership, always in the one-down. As BS's, it's not fair, but we really do have to work toward healing if we want R. Because R needs to be fair to both parties, no matter who did what if we intend to continue. The goal needs to be REAL love and mutual respect. If that can't be achieved, it's sad, but it is what it is.

ETA: I think you would be wise to step back emotionally and take a really good, clinical LOOK at your BH. If you find signs of "object love" or Narcissism (do an internet search), your best bet is to just get a really good attorney and get out. I'm not saying that it can't be something else at four years out, only that if it's one of those things, the situation is irreparable.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:42 AM, Sunday, September 5th]

BrokenAsh:
Thank you also for acknowledging the revenge sex. It’s something I’ve never been able to discuss much.

I would like to know why. As a BS, you are entitled to amends for his cheating. I'm a BS and so I have empathy for him and wanting relief so desperately, but he shouldn't have done that. I love the saying "There's no marriage so troubled that an affair won't make it worse." I'm sure the R looks different for a MH but still, you deserve to be able to talk about it.

I even had to see this woman a year after it happened and hugged her and pretended I didn’t know.

That must have been horrible, I don't know how you could have done it. I can't even stand the thought of seeing my WW's fuck-buddy, let alone chat with him or even touch him. Blech!!!

Thank you for all of your insight. Am I allowed to copy/paste into another forum like you suggested?

I've seen a couple things, as a WW you can make another post in that forum. You can also message a moderator to have something moved.

BrokenAsh....

Four years IS a long time.....I'm a BS 2 1/2 years out. We were fortunate with good MC and IC early on. This is a wound like nothing I've ever experienced in my life. My FWH could be the poster child for good recovery. Not perfect, but when I can get out of the pain and see what he's actually doing today, THAT is the reason I'm still here. OW was a "friend". It blew up our world. And, I have the displeasure of running into her frequently. I look at how FWH handled my trauma vs. how OW handled it in her marriage. OBS and OW are divorced.

With FWH....in the first couple of weeks while going through "withdrawal" he was defensive, TT, etc. (gosh the behavior is SO typical). I had to acknowledge a pretty unpopular idea here.....I was 50% responsible for a marriage that was vulnerable to an affair. I didn't know it at the time, but there we are. I COULDN'T hear that from him though.....that just seemed like blame shifting. Still doesn't defend his crappy choices, but there we are. I also saw it coming and confronted my "friend"/OW and husband. The fact that I didn't protect myself harder, stings. But, as the BS you SO want to believe the lies.

I have a lot of trauma in my childhood. This pain stirred all that up. My idea of feeling safe again.....will never be the same. It is a constant struggle to remember that the affair has more to do with where FWH was at the time vs. me not being enough. I've worked long and hard on my FOO issues - this brought them all back with a vengeance . I had made FWH my safe place. The affair trashed that. There are days when I just feel like I don't want to live in a world where this pain is possible. I have choices. I could leave. I don't want to. The thing is, even if I left....I wouldn't trust a new relationship in the same naive way I had with FWH.

All that said, we made a decision that what we had/have is worth fighting for. Not for our child, but for us. I set a time limit. I would work on this for 3 years. We're 2 1/2 down the road from DD.

Things are much better. We have so many more skills. I miss the idea of just effortlessly being in a relationship. I'm jealous of the idea of limerence. I know I'll be ok with or without him, but most days I'm choosing with him. I'm STILL triggered. Not as often, but at least once a week. Sometimes, it is really rough. As a BS, I DO think we develop an OCD about the WS/AP. It's a crappy way to make yourself feel safe, and doesn't work at ALL. I still hope that OW gets a heavy dose of karma and that I get to pull up a chair and watch that bus from a safe distance. I think I'll never shake that. It is better when I can just focus on the present and NOT think about what happened during the affair. I can't change that. Though, NONE of this was something I could hear from my FWH. He asked me the other day, when I would see and BELIEVE where we are, where he is now. Truth is, the affair forever changes that. I will always know that it is possible....whereas before DD, it was unbelievable to me. That was a false belief.....all couples are vulnerable to affairs (doesn't excuse it though) I'm sure FWH misses the certainty and blind trust he enjoyed.....but that will never be the same from me, in any relationship I have.

As a BS you have two monumental boulders to lift.....fix your affair trauma....and fix your part of the marriage. Sometimes those are mutually exclusive. Sometimes fixing my trauma means I have to distance myself....because if I don't I'll full on be abusive toward my FWH just out of the pain and anger. RA was something on my radar....but I knew it would be counter to what we were trying to fix. We got in the mess because FWH and OW were training together to do triathlons and spent too much time together working toward an Ironman. I was just getting into the sport and she was "mentoring" me. She was all up in our lives. I've continued to train and race. Unfortunately, I run into her at many of them. It is super triggering. Doing the triathlon myself is monumentally easier than recovery work and triggers. The physical activity is SO much easier than the mental gymnastics.

H made an analogy that stuck with me. There is a car....rolling into a body of water. It's going to sink. We'll never get it out. Do we look at each other and say "you made the car roll", "the car is rolling because you don't listen", "the car is rolling because we're disconnected" or do we both roll up our sleeves, and push the car away from the water? Falling into victim mode is an easy cycle of me as a BS. Truth is, I am the victim. Though, it is not a place to dwell. I have a choice. I don't have to work on this at all. I can leave. Remembering that, is helpful to me.

Little and often has grown our trust....such as it is now. Him being involved, actively listening, being remorseful, showing compassion, empathy, being involved in our household, etc. He can't do those things if I'm attacking him. Those things have been the reason, I haven't cut and run. Though, I would, if I have to. Now, we're making new memories and adventures. Having those to look forward to helps me when I'm lost in the pain. That 3-5 years for recovery isn't something WS want to acknowledge. But, it is totally real.

It is the toughest thing I've ever done.....and there are no guarantees. But, we're both here today.

OW leveled the blame directly on OBS. She really behaved with him, me, and FWH as if she had no responsibility. I'm sure she's not as one sided as that, but I'm not the person to grant her more.

[This message edited by Ladybugmaam at 10:23 AM, Sunday, September 5th]

Unfortunately, four years isn't that long -- because we know it takes a BS about 3-5 years to gain equilibrium again.

we also don't know from WW’s original post how long the period of trickle truth, footdragging, blame shifting and so on continued after DDAY.

And then there's the aspect of a double betrayal which many BS’s never have to deal with -- it adds a new level of toxicity and damage.

Did it happen in the home? Yet another level of toxicity and damage.

I myself am a BH coming up on five years post DDAY. Really though I've had several more DDAYS because of my WW’s behavior, and we're only 1.6 years out from her failed polygraph.

What I do find odd is your husband’s behavior. I've been consistently kind to my WW even though I feel now as though I'll never see her the same way again or develop feelings for her that go beyond a FWB. But I can't imagine going around day to day giving my WW the cold shoulder in the same house for years.

Not many WW come out of the protected section so I really want to help you.

Four years is a long time except.

You trickle truth for a while which add time to the process.

The failed MC will also delay the R process.

The biggest concern is your IC. You said the IC was your BH IC and brought you in for your perspective. I do not understand this at all. He then added you as a client and now your husband is no longer seeing anyone.

The same IC has also advised you against his former client. To have you move out into another room will prevent any possible R.

Sorry, double post.

[This message edited by paboy at 6:59 PM, Sunday, September 5th]

In reading your post, I wondered if he actually had a revenge affair(RA), or if he only claimed to have had one.

Was this verified, or only informed to you by your spouse.

I'm just trying to get into his head to see why he still acts the way he does.

Why he has not committed one way or the other.

Was it an attempt to 'try' and hurt you.

I think 13 years has been a little tone deaf in blaming the victim

I never "blamed the victim." I said that the victim needs to own his madhatter shit, own his other shit, and show up to do the work if he wants to save the marriage, which he said that he wanted to do. It's been FOUR YEARS. If it was four months, my advice would be different, but four years is too long for a WS to tolerate being a punching bag. It's time for everyone to do the work or call it quits.

Yes, it takes years to recover and reconcile from infidelity, but if you're GOING to reconcile, both partners must treat each other with respect. IMO, it's normal and acceptable for there to be angry outbursts from time to time, but the man won't even make eye contact. This is not R, or even recovery.

[This message edited by 13YearsR at 5:01 PM, Tuesday, September 7th]

Um ... you are a madhatter, too. That means you need to heal both as a WS and as a BS. You need to work through your feelings and thoughts from both sides. Don't discount any of the work - you've got to heal from both sides to be healed.

Some of the healing work helps both WS and BS - taking responsibility for your actions, building healthy boundaries, seeing yourself as full-fledged member of the human race, treating your H with love and respect and expecting love and respect from him, treating yourself with love and respect, resolving feelings, change self-talk from attacking yourself to supporting yourself, etc.

I agree with tush and 13YearsR. From what you write, it looks to me as if he is not on board for R. The BS has work to do to R, and you describe a BS who is not willing to do that work.

Yes, you victimized him by cheating. Yes, he has lots of feelings about that. Yes, your A damaged his self-esteem, although it was probably already in the toilet because of his own issues. But he's the only one who can deal with his own issues, and you report that he's not doing what he needs to do.

As tush says, see an attorney, learn your rights, start thinking about your future.

I'll add: and start taking steps to build a good life.

I think he doesn't instill/talk to her as much as she believes.

I think his "bouts of depression" should be regulated with a mild anti-depressant. It would take some of the edge off for him.

As for the RA, I can see why he did it.

I think you forgave it because you knew he probably pleaded for you to change jobs or stop talking to the boss and slowly eased into the affair while he tried to stop you. This is probably full of guilt for you and righteous fire for him. He tried to stop you or change your behavior and he was ignored. It probably added to his inferiority complex he is battling now. Inferiority in that you would talk openly to your AP but not him. Throw away your life, career, husband, and kids for this man.

You can't ever show your husband you deserve him back. He has to swallow the turd sandwich and move on. Thing is, you don't get to tell him when to do that. I think that is what you know and why you aren't packing a bag. You are used to him turning inward and being depressed. He isn't doing that. So, lets think why not.

The revenge is him trying to fight off the sadness. He is scared of being depressed because you used that as part of the reason you had your affair. I wish you would take that part out of your description of what happened in the beginning. Think how you can make him feel comfortable to be sad again. He probably hides his sadness and tries to wrap it in hate. It is a trick you can see any BH doing on here in Just Found Out.

So, lets ask, are you being vulnerable with him?

Are you asking him to cry with you or does he cry when you talk about how much you 2 have hurt each other?

I think you both have walls up. I also think he had the revenge affair out of sadness but trying to show anger. If it wasn't, he would have done more like someone mentioned above, IMO. It is why you dismissed it so easily. You got to see the sadness you are used too.

He needs to get on meds first, just to take the edge off. Then 2 should get something away from the family and the affair to do together to rebuild your connection. You keep thinking you can talk this connection into life, but when a BS tries to talk the WS out of the affair and is ignored for multiple months, then lied to afterward. They stop trusting words. Even if you have a professional attached to them. So, go get biking together or start walking regularly.

Make these times, that you don't even acknowledge the affair and instead talk about other things. Like the past or the future. This will help you build the connection you desire.

Your BS has been burned by words and counselors. You aren't going to solve this with more of either for him. You need to start connecting in a different way.

As far as the moving out thing, stop that. Get back in the bedroom and even if it is a day bed in the bedroom, start there and eventually push it together with the master over a month period, scooting an inch each day, without him knowing.

You were a bad person during your affair. You should hate that side of you. Your weren't his wife, you didn't love him. Don't say those things, I know my wife and MC had a hard time with me forcing that down their throats, because no one cheats because they love you. Plus you wouldn't call him your husband if he was serial cheating on you now. Instead focus on the future and build that connection again, just one little thing at a time. Talk about possibly starting anti-depressants for him because he was sad 4 years ago, don't mention the affair. Just that he was sad back then and he seems to be in an anger rut.

If you think you have made progress, have your husband write out one of his revenge schemes for you. Then show him how at the end, he is still angry and sad. That now he has his revenge and he doesn't feel better. Mention how he would have spent all that time in hate and it just makes his life worse. Then ask what happens when one of these guys tries to get revenge for the revenge? What happens when it starts to impact your family? Reward him for the effort with say dinner he likes or watch a show he likes you don't together. Little things like that will help him feel comfortable getting out of the anger stage.

Good luck and I am glad you are looking for help. I just think you are out of options and looking for the next solutions which is the work we talk about.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 10:03 PM, Tuesday, September 7th]

I’ve been away from the forums for a while but want to respond to some of the comments and give a small update. I’m not organized enough to be able to respond to each person by name.

My BH is on meds and has been for a few years, only after the A. It doesn’t seem to help much from my perspective but it’s something.

I do believe he actually had the RA and is not making it up. He had been openly looking at escorts before that happened to get me back and so that he would not be special to me anymore the way I wasn’t to him now. He even showed me the girl he made an appt with but ultimately canceled the appt. The RA was with a woman that he had hooked up with before we were together so it makes sense that it was her.

I’ve moved back in the bedroom since I posted after asking him if he deems it a rejection. He said he did a little bit so I’ve come back in. I think it’s better for our kids too. Someone said the IC (my BH’s former IC) was giving advice against my BH by telling me to move out, but I don’t see it that way. Every night used to end up in a rehashing of the A. and it was no longer healthy or productive. I also just felt so uncomfortable being next to someone I knew didn’t want me there. I never felt comfortable in my own bed not knowing if I could bring up conversation and I had butterflies going in each night not knowing what to expect. The IC described it as our marital bed and said that I should set a boundary that I don’t return until we’re both working towards R, or until I can feel comfortable. One of my issues is co-dependency and he was trying to show me how to set boundaries so that I could start to feel happiness or forgive myself even if BH was not going to.

Someone said my OP sounded like I don’t really respect my BH. I’m not sure what I said that conveyed that, but I definitely do. I’m entirely empathetic to the suffering I caused and would do anything to help him heal. I am getting to the point where I’m barely able to live this existence. One of the hardest parts is that one of the pre A issues was how one sided things felt to me. his anger was so overwhelming that my issues just fell to the wayside. Of course for obvious reasons things are still that way because of the choices I made, but that feels like about 8 years of living with my needs being pushed to the sidelines. I don’t even mean sexual needs at all, just being able to reach out to talk when I need to, to share TV shows, just mutual respect.

Revenge is his whole focus. It scares me because I don’t know when the OM or OW will reach their breaking point and retaliate on their own. He does mostly subtle things through people around them to let them know he’s still not letting it go. I don’t think my BH hates me to the level that Buck did his WW, but the indifference can feel like that.

Another person asked how long the TT lasted since that delays things, it was about 3 months. I still didn’t do things perfectly even after that, it still took me time to own everything the way I should have right away. I also think the reason my IC encourages a healing separation is to try to jar my BH into changing. He knows he’s stuck and he thinks by my allowing this to go on so long I’m not doing him any favors.

Lastly, he did agree to start joining me in counseling again so we will begin MC again.