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Feb! I want to second bigger. The fall is a necessity for them to truly remove the fog and own their shit.

Action speak louder is correct. My WW started to blame her depression, and everything she could after the fall. Why? Its a special person who can look themselves in the mirror and admit they are fundamentally broken. Usually years of coping skills and rationalizations in there. Shes starting a long path! Make sure shes not half-steppin'.

(((feb)))

I am in graduate school to become a therapist, and I thought I may offer some food for thought in case it is helpful.

One of the things I really had to learn was that being too nice was not helpful to my clients. Particularly difficult problems (sexual abuse, for example) are prone to avoidance from both client and therapist because it is extremely painful to go through. Not bringing up missed sessions or missed homework, and avoiding the hard topics in session may make my client feel better in the short-term, but does absolutely nothing for them in the long-term. At times, I would just feel gutted watching my clients suffer so much because I felt like I was 'making' them feel their pain. I would rather avoid it and comfort them. However, it was always necessary, though.

Sometimes pain is necessary. In this case, your wife caused her own pain. The principle still applies. Your wife MUST experience this pain so she realizes the extent of hurt her actions have caused and to act as a catalyst for change. I don't know if you feel pulled to do so, but trying to keep her from feeling this pain is counterproductive, both for her personal growth, you, and your marriage. It seems from your posts that you have a big heart and you may want to comfort her right now. Don't. Not just because there is the danger for rug sweeping and minimization of your own pain, but also because she NEEDS to feel this right now.

but also because she NEEDS to feel this right now.

I agree.

And the fact that she wants drugs makes me think she doesn't want to feel that pain. Just numb it.

I also agree that she is focusing all the attention on HER. If she can't have affair kibbles, she'll take a nervous breakdown.

She might be "hitting bottom" -- but I don't see her connecting the dots to remorse. As in -- I did this to FEB. To my KIDS.

I would surmise she's upset she got thrown under the bus by the OMs and lost her riding group and her (imaginary) SuperStar status.

I just don't see where your pain is factoring in here.

Talk to your kids -- is there anyway you can get them into some family therapy? You need some IC to help you through this Feb. Navigating the how to tell the kids thing (whatever it is you tell them, mommy is cracking up, mommy and daddy are having issues), is something you need to get professional help with.

Sorry this must be awful for you.

She wants drugs? I would prescribe sodium pentathol. It may be the only way you can get her to tell the truth.

Praying for you and your wife tonight. Hugs

It is awful.

I was prepared to be tough, but she wasn't faking it.

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back", and I said that I couldn't honestly guarantee that.

Ironic that the only reason the drugs were in the house was that I was prescribed them 6 days after D-Day.

She has agreed to both NC and IC.

she is going to ask me to stay home from work again tomorrow, I'll bet..I haven't yet (well, I did on D-Day).

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back",

WTF? What does that mean? I would interpret that as her asking you if you'd stick around if she can't commit to you completely?

If THAT is what she meant? Feb -- she's not in this. She's still bargaining with you. I said before she'd throw a tantrum, which is the wrong word -- too light and frivolous. She's having a meltdown to keep Cake.

I don't think she is "faking" it. I think she is sincere in her belief that she will crack up without cake.

You are worth so much more than this. I hope you see that.

eta:

She has agreed to both NC and IC.

That doesn't add up with the other comment. AND agreeing to it is not the same thing as taking initiative and DOING it. Stand back and watch what she does. Do NOT give in to her drama. Be calm and continue on and go to work tomorrow.

[This message edited by squiffle at 9:16 PM, April 5th (Tuesday)]

You guys should now share passwords and access to any type of communication (both current and yet-to-be-invented communication devices) completely.

My FWW and I share everything to this day. Privacy was the second casuality of D-Day. First one was pride.

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back",

WTF? What does that mean? I would interpret that as her asking you if you'd stick around if she can't commit to you completely?

She meant back to wholeness, sanity...right now she feels as though her life is over

She knows that I won't stick around if she doesn't commit to our marriage..I have made that clear

OK, tomorrow, I back off a bit and let her suffer.

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back", and I said that I couldn't honestly guarantee that.

WTF does she mean? Is she still negotiating?

Seriously, that's just fucked up!

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back",

I hope that doesn't mean will you stay even if I don't love you and don't want to have sex with you.

Feb, don't take off from work, she needs to be alone with herself. She needs to feel the consequences of her actions. You can't keep softening the blows for her. She needs to stand on her own two feet and face this.

She wants assurances from you that you will stay and take care of the kids, make the lunches, do the housework, run the kids to all their activities. Again, not taking responsibility, but wanting YOU TO COMMIT TO HER without her doing a damn thing. Tread softly, take time to make decisions, and give her time to face herself.

Man she is a total player. She has your number down.

Please do not take this meanly. She probably doesn't even realize the extent of her manipulations.

Something is very fishy about this meltdown. The timing of it is odd. From what you are saying (and of course the posters here are not privy to your entire life) but it seems she is breaking down over the loss of the OM. One poster hypothesized that perhaps she tried to contact him and was throughly rebuffed. I tend to agree that SOMETHING precipitated this.

Feb, also note she feels her life is OVER. She has her Kids. She has a possibility to make her marriage work. Yet this is not ENOUGH for her to be happy about.

Her life is over and she has you guys? Think about that Feb. She should be thrilled and she is instead in the throes of a meltdown.

She is suffering from the fact the life she wanted is not going to happen and now she has to settle. You have still not established value to her. You and your kids have no value or else she would be thrilled with her second chance. Only you can change that. But again, you are holding her hand through this and that is telling her that her current state has "merit" and that the relationships she lost have more value than the relationships she may salvage. By babying her...you are saying "there there WW, I understand you have lost so much". F^%k that.

You should be saying "Shape your %$#% up or this is what you are GOING to lose.

Last night we watched Butler set up shots perfectly only to miss the basket when it counted. You have set your shot up right but you too are about to miss the basket. This marriage can be what you want or what she wants at this moment...but not both. Someone wins their way. Are you going to miss your shot?

I've read up on your post. Wow, you've been through a lot, and have the patience and self control of a sniper!

Sorry this is long, but with 651 replies to your post (and I read them all...WHEW!) there is a lot to think about and share!

I want to tell you that you've been doing an amazing job dealing with all the junk coming from all sides as a result of the two (maybe more?) A's!

Keep your dignity, tell her your feelings for her, but also let her know you won't compromise on what you need from the M if you are going to stay in it. Let her know that you are not going to wait around indefinitely for to make up her mind. Mentally set a date for her to come out of the fog so you can protect yourself from hanging on and on with no results. Tell her you have a timeframe in mind, but don't tell her what it is, just know in your heart that you are going to begin the process if things haven't happened by that date.

I was wondering:

Despite this, she was having a rough morning, coming up to me initiating hugs. Just before I left she said to me, "Let's get me counselling. I need it."

Why does she want hugs from a man that repulses her??? She knows YOU want to be physical, and she is using hugs and suggesting counselling for herself 1) as a tool to tease you and keep you hopeful without offering you sex or 2) because SHE wants you but is too stubborn or in the fog to have the break down, tell you how wrong she was, that she'll do whatever it takes to get you back and then initiate the Hysterical Bonding phase.

If it is #1, she is a tease, and you should stop hugging her until you are in R, and you can trust that her hugs have a chance of turning into something more. If it is #2 you should stop hugging her until you are in a real R, because hugging her when she needs it is enabling her to not feel what it will be like without you to reassure her with a hug.

I would tell her that there will be no more physical contact until she decides she is in the M 100%. Tell her her own words: she finds you physically unattractive, yet she wants you to hug her all the time.

Just a question for you, don't you feel a bit insulted hugging someone who finds you unattractive? Or do you not really believe her. Her story about not being attracted to you is probably part of her rewriting of M history, but give it back to her so she can digest the fact that her own words are now keeping her from getting what she needs from you. My guess is that she will begin to backpedal very quickly, and will find you attractive and want to jump your bones sooner than you think in order to undo what her own words have caused.

I could be wrong, but the last thing I would want is to repeatedly hug someone who is repulsive to me, much less repeatedly hug someone that I know finds me repulsive. She's playing games with herself, or with you and using hugs to do it.

Call her bluff.

She said she wanted one more converstaion for closure and that she wanted to tell him she was mad at him for not listening to her the first time she tried to push him away

I'm with all the others here. FWW does not need to speak with OM about anything, especially to try to blame him for their A. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO!! The next contact with OM, if there is going to be any, is a NC letter.

Our kids now definitely know there is something wrong. Our 4 year old daughter had tears in her eyes telling me "Don't go away Daddy." Our 9 year old wants to know what we're fighting about.

IMHO you should unpack your bags, dig in your heels, and tell WW that you aren't going anywhere. If anyone leaves, it will be her. Let your children see you unpacking, and assure them you aren't going anywhere. If you can, cancel your trip for the sake of your children...they are obviously traumatized by what they have seen, heard and sensed. Your children have got to be worried seeing Dad's bag packed, and him almost leaving. Stop the "I'm leaving" game, because to me it is looking like a game....sorry for the 2 X 4, but a parent should not be coming and going into their children's lives. If it comes to D, then one of you will leave. Once is enough, it is to happen at all.

If your leaving town, she will probably contact OM.

She already said she wanted to contact him to blame him for their A. Don't you think she would do that as soon as you are out the door? Then after they talk a few minutes, there is a the possibility she gets hooked on him since you are gone. She is an addict...she needs someone. You'd be gone, he's next in line.

Will somebody please let me know (I don't think a 2 x 4 is the right tool for this) if/when I am ready for the Reconciliation forum?

It will be when you believe you both are committed to R. R doesn't have to look perfect, but you will know her heart is 100% in it and she has agreed to everything YOU have stipulated you need from the M.

I know, but there is far greater danger on the days that she is home with no kids in school, than there will be when she has all three of them for four days.

Where there is a will there is a way...I have heard of people having A's after the children go to bed...

But you can't control what she does....and you don't really want to....what you want is for her to control herself, right? Just let her know that if you find out she has called one of the OM that you are starting the paperwork for a D.

She did ask if I would stick around if she "didn't make it all the way back"

What the heck does that mean?? She is asking you to compromise, and is pulling at your heart strings using the misery she is in. Let her feel it, it is hers...it won't kill her, it will help her come to reality and ultimately help her heal.

Your answer to her:

I couldn't honestly guarantee that.

was perfect when I thought she meant "if she doesn't commit 100% to your M.

How do you know this:

She meant back to wholeness, sanity...right now she feels as though her life is over

Does she think she was sane before, while she was having multiple A's and didn't want you anyway??? Is she just insane now that she is facing reality??? I think she is still deep in the fog, and she is fighting coming out of the fog using her tears and depression. Someone else here said she is trying to escape the pain. I think that is true, but escaping the pain causes more pain in the long run.

Even if you pity her, don't let her know, and don't let your kindness keep her from hitting bottom, or give her hope she can eat cake.

nuance has it right:

You guys should now share passwords and access to any type of communication (both current and yet-to-be-invented communication devices) completely.

doing that should give her a sense of relief, if she is truly remorseful. Whether or not she is willing to give you all the PW will let you know if she is still playing games even though she feels miserable.

So far you haven't done anything to humiliate yourself. You've kept your own values, treated her with respect, and have behaved in a manner that hasn't damaged your own self respect. Keep that up so you don't create more things for you to overcome as you travel on the rollercoaster of R, should you both begin R.

But first things first. She needs to come out of the fog, and agree and begin to ACT on all conditions you set up in order for you to stay in the M.

Sorry,from the outside looking in

Just basics

When you told her you knew about the affairs and was gutted, crying, broken hearted, not sleeping not eating......

No remorse

She went on a 10 day holiday.

Now she has been found out and she has lost her cake and she is crying, not eating and falling apart.

You can't even go to your sisters for a weekend and are expected to take a day off work to hold her hand.

She is NOT remorseful....she is angry her cake is being taken away and even her back up plan (you) may leave.

That's it. Thats her remorse.

One thing not clear (that‘s maybe an understatement!)

OK – So if I am correct you have told her what you need to work on the marriage.

What’s not clear is whether she has said in a clear an undisputable way “Yes Feb. I agree to those conditions and I too want to work on the marriage”

Not “maybe”, not “I want you to stay”. Just a clear YES I HEAR YOUR DEMANDS AND I ACCEPT THEM. You don’t read silence as acceptance, you don’t accept ANYTHING vague. In fact – it would be a great idea to put the demands in writing and have a signed agreement. Won’t necessarily hold any better BUT it doesn’t leave much leeway for misunderstanding.

I’m a history buff. In both WW I and WW II the Axis powers offered the Allies peace terms some time before the war was won. In both wars the Allies refused and demanded total and unconditional surrender. They did so knowing that this would prolong the war and cost lives. Why? Because doing less would be the ultimate insult for the cost already paid. They knew the opposition was so evil that they HAD to have a total and final resolution to the conflict.

In the Korea conflict a cease-fire was reached before either side won. What have we now? A divided country and armed men watching each other through barbed wire.

OK – so your home is neither Dunkirk, The Bulge nor Normandy. But what you are dealing with now is what might be the final battle in your war.

So Feb – As tough as it is then stand firm on your demands.

If she does not commit to them – well you know what that means.

Once she commits to them – go back to being a husband. That’s when you start taking care of her EXTREMELY urgent and important needs.

Back to the car-showroom:

It’s as if you have gotten her out of the room and back into your old, mundane but sensible Ford. She’s now hyperventilating in the hope you will come back tomorrow to see that red Ferrari.

I agree with Tawnee1969. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

Her meltdown, albeit real, is her way of reseting the dynamic between you two.

I'm really sorry.

(((Feb)))

The skepticism on this board is born out of expereience.

I sometimes feel like a class A fraud giving hardline advice because I was doormat central. I didn't have SI to help me negotiate and I fucked up so many times in so many ways is it humiliating.

But in some ways us doormater's see things very clearly.

The hard liners know what they are talking about. Your wife is starting the process. But don't be ticking off any credit until her actions actually start to show you something consistently. And I don't see that getting started till the pity party is over.

And feb- she ain't there yet.

You see real anxiety and fear and pain and you assume that it is coming from a real place. Don't make assumptions that the WW is gone and that your W is back becuase she cries or is afraid or needs you.

She isn't alone in this. It takes a while for many WS's to find their way to authentic. But I have to warn you that tears and anxiety may be a sign of real pain but it doesn't mean she isn't as fucked up as she was last week or the week beofre.

You love her. And want to keep the marriage. You are clingng to the life rafts that you have been tossed. I would too. But keep your skepticism my friend.

Step outside yourself here. I know it seems like we all have out bitch pants on -- but none of this is new. We have seen shit like this and not just in our own situations. No one is trying to kill your hope. But you have to try to see things from all sides.

She is used to control. And losing your shit is a form of control. I am not saying she is in an back room planning like a mother fucker. She is grasping for what feels good and safe and requires the least amount of work. You didn't get to lose your shit did you? You know why? Not just because you are strong but because you were not entirely sure you would have someone there to catch you when you fell.

But she is sure. Very, very sure. Think about it feb.

[This message edited by redrock at 7:16 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Feb, very practical question for you -- have you checked the cell phone records? Do you now have access to her email and FB pages?

You know NOW that she took the A underground. So... how did she do it? Check the records.

You're going to find either -- phone calls to OM(s) or you will not. If you do not, that tells you she has a secret cell phone.

The cell phone records may reveal other truths.

If she balks at giving you PWs and info from this point forward -- well, then you know how sincere she is about R. If she in ANY way acts like you asking this is punishment? Again, that's your answer.

What she is doing with her drama right now is DISTRACTING you. She wants you under her control. The reason she freaks when you go to work, or to your sisters, is because you might go sleuthing or get IRL support and she can't control the flow of information. She can't be the CENTER of attention. It cannot be about HER.

Maybe you think I'm cynical. So prove me wrong. Go look at the phone records and tell me what you find. Go ask her PWs and see how she reacts.

If you are at ALL flinching about doing this? (Oh no! It will just upset her further and she is so fragile right now... ) then see for what it is -- MANIPULATION.

I think her distress is real (no more cake!) and I also think she is playing you. Keeping you off balance so you don't uncover more.

There is more. Believe it.

I am very very lucky to have you all here suporting and advising me. I even feel some guilt that so much time and energy is spent on my ordeal, while new members join everyday, ask for help and get just a few replies. I hope that this monster thread can help others, but then I guess goose-em's thread from a month ago helped me, so...

I TRY to post on others threads when I can, but then I realize that if I had much more to offer than (((hugs))), I'd have applied to my own situation. Actually, it has been helpful , as redrock suggests to step outside myself and be objective.

Random Thoughts (about all I am capable of right now...)

This is very difficult. On some levels, I am being advised to "play a game" or manipulate a depressed (possibly clinically) mommy (2 of our 3 still call her that). Despite her anxious state, she is still pretty smart, and I have to be careful that she doesn't see through me.

She didn't want me to go to work again today. For those keeping score, I have missed three days work since D-Day (D-Day, 2 days later, and 10 days post D-day), all because I knew I couldn't function. I will not call in "sick" for her.

She has now not ridden her bike for 5 consecutive days.

Quick question for anyone who wants to reply...I mentioned earlier that posting on other's threads helped me be objective about my own situation and perhaps learn/internalize a little. Do you find the same thing when you post on this thread?

MovingogPast and HurtbutHopeful

Thank you so much for your viewpoints. I believe I needed to see them.

bigger - another great analogy...we were actually in Dieppe on our honeymoon - not planned, just there on the coast of France as we cycled along - I don't want to be Korea. I have often felt this is akin to a labour negotiation, where everybody wonders why it takes the pain and stress of a lengthy strike/lockout to come to the only reasonable solution that ever existed. (anyone from the NFL, are you listening?)

I have more I want to say and respond to...

Feb,

You're getting a lot of advice right now. I know this is a really, really difficult time. You're torn between your wife (whom you have strong feelings for) and the pain that she is caused.

It can be so difficult to watch this person fall into this hole. When you love someone, you never want to see them hurt like that. You want to lessen the pain.

I want to reinforce with the others here that she needs to hit rock bottom. She needs to really see the effects. Drugs are not the answer - as someone noted, they only dull the pain.

During our first R, I tried to lessen the pain I thought my H was feeling. I thought it was good for our R. We were working through it together, right? That meant that if I could do something to make it easier - be there for him, whatever, things would be better, and he would see that I loved him. I did things right out of the Dear BS: Hell No You Should Not Be Doing That textbook. Things like holding him as he cried because he was so confused about how he felt and who he cared about. I let him have his "closure" - after all, I thought setting boundaries would push him away. If I gave an ultimatum like "I will not tolerate contact with her" he would go to her. Ultimately, he never saw the need to work on himself, because I was still there.

Four years after the first d-day, we had another d-day. Heavy flirting. Slippery slope crap. Really crappy boundaries.

His response: "I didn't think my (his) actions were divorce-worthy."

Clearly, he did not "see" what I went through the first time. He did not value nor respect the pain and the effort that I put into R the first time. By me hiding my pain, helping his pain, he did not learn, and he did not grow.

This time, he has been on his own. It's been a lot harder on him this time, but he's making progress.

It is hard to watch your spouse hit bottom. And each time you think they have hit that bottom, I can almost guarantee they can go a little further down. If you want a marriage, you have to let her fall. You can help her up again when she's ready, but she has to fall.