SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Smokey,

I know I'm late to this thread but I have read it all twice. I also don't want to step on bufffalo or Bigger's toes as you have gotten excellent advice from them.

Not that you need any more balls to juggle right now but have you considered codependency as a major stumbling block that is keeping you from doing what you know in your heart you have to do? I'm just throwing it out there because you sound just like me in the beginning. I was a HUGE codependent and until I understood that, I couldn't get out of my own way and do what I had to do for myself to begin to heal and be happy. Not saying you are or aren't, just food for thought my friend.

Also,

I figure she has to demonize me in some way in order to feel justified in her choices.

No offense intended, but this is the first "Right On" statement I've read that you've made in this thread. JMO, but you need a whole lot more of this kind of thinking. Your WW is in a fantasy bubble dude and understanding that nothing you say or do will break that bubble is your first step to healing and moving on from this shitty mess. 180...180...180...180!!!

All the best and please know that I'm pulling for you!

Smoky,

Just checking on ya, buddy.

Hope you are doing OK.

still2suspicious:

You know, you people are probably way too good for me....

Thanks for asking. I'm doing okay, comparatively. Last night my wife took my son to dinner and a movie, and I can only hope that at some point he had a difficult conversation with her, similar to the one he had with me on Christmas. I really don't think she gets what this is doing to him.

Yesterday she had texted me to say she was having trouble reaching our son. That's the only communication between us since the previous Thursday, when she sent that text saying "I know you want answers... still need the space to sort it."

I didn't respond to either text. She knows the kid's cell number, and she knows our landline's number -- if she can't reach him, she really doesn't need to make me the messenger, especially since she's otherwise avoiding me at all costs.

So while last Friday I was really in a desperate state, I'd say that today I'm pretty much angry again. Oh, still desperate, sure, but mainly angry.

I meet with our marriage counselor tomorrow morning, though I don't expect much to come of it. I don't know how much longer I'll wait afterward, if I can stand to wait at all, before I tell her more or less what Bigger suggested about how sharing her is worse than losing her, so she needs to commit to working on the marriage and having zero contact with "H"; otherwise, we'd better work on ending it.

Which is scary, but still.

PanicAttack53:

Not that you need any more balls to juggle right now but have you considered codependency as a major stumbling block that is keeping you from doing what you know in your heart you have to do? I'm just throwing it out there because you sound just like me in the beginning. I was a HUGE codependent and until I understood that, I couldn't get out of my own way and do what I had to do for myself to begin to heal and be happy. Not saying you are or aren't, just food for thought my friend.

I hadn't considered it in any depth. I've never thought I was codependent, but maybe I am. I don't know. I do feel strongly as though I need her, but as I understand it, codependency entails more than that -- and, from what I read, the relationship she's in *now* sounds a lot more codependent. I just don't know, though.

No offense intended, but this is the first "Right On" statement I've read that you've made in this thread. JMO, but you need a whole lot more of this kind of thinking. Your WW is in a fantasy bubble dude and understanding that nothing you say or do will break that bubble is your first step to healing and moving on from this shitty mess. 180...180...180...180!!!

All the best and please know that I'm pulling for you!

Thanks for the kind thoughts, and no offense was taken at all. Again, I really appreciate everybody's input here, and I'm genuinely sorry you all are going through (or have gone through) this kind of thing.

I keep telling myself that there's nothing I can do to influence her, but I also keep finding myself thinking, "But what if I...?"

These days -- given that she's not contacting me at all (except for the texts mentioned in my previous post), I'm not contacting her. If there were, say, a major bill payment due or something, I'd text her, but otherwise, nada. She knows how I feel.

Anyway, she's avoiding me anyway, because she doesn't want me berating her or going on about how much she's hurting me, etc. I kind of think that the next time we speak, it'll either be her saying "It's over" or me saying what Bigger suggested; I'll leave out the "Here are the horrible things you've done" stuff, and I won't go on about how angry I am and what a narcissistic prick "H" is... although, believe me, I really want to unload on her and get all this stuff off my chest.

So probably my weekend will consist of going down to my mom's and watching a lot of TV I'm not crazy about, while continuing to ruminate.

I'm at a point where I really ought to read the 180 again, and more carefully, so I'll try and do that over the weekend as well.

Thanks again.

Well, she lowered the boom.

My wife called me at 6:30 asked when my appointment with the marriage counselor is (tomorrow), and I said “Nine. Why?” She said, “Well, I need to talk to you. About some stuff. I don’t think it’s gonna be what you want to hear.” I said, “Well, don’t make me wait till tomorrow, then. Come over now and talk.” She said, “Well, there’s stuff I’m supposed to go and do....” I said, “Just come over her and get it done now.” She got here about 15 minutes later.

Below, as best as I can reproduce it, is the conversation with my wife. (Bigger: I imagine you’ll find yourself in there somewhere....) Earlier I $40 on an MP3 recorder. Basically, I bought it for this talk, but the idea was to take it to therapy as well, etc. I’d just leave it in a pocket and talk, then listen to the sessions to try and assimilate more. The thing picks up sound pretty well. Unfortunately, it only got the first six minutes of our conversation, which may have lasted about half an hour. I don't know why -- maybe because it was in my pocket, and I got up and sat down a lot, and maybe I pushed the Stop button somehow. (In any case, I went off the beam a bunch of times....) Anyway:

Wife: I feel like all the stuff I did was kind of unforgivable, and I don’t see how you would ever be able to trust me again.

Me: I want more than anything for this marriage to be salvaged -- I think that it can be. I think that if you were willing to commit to the marriage and to counseling and all the other stuff, I think we could be okay. The fact is, though, I had something of an epiphany, which is that under the circumstances, as horrible as losing you is, it doesn’t compare to sharing you. I won’t share you. While you are married to me, it’s not okay for you to see “H” or anybody else. So if you don’t feel that this is worth the effort, then we’d better work on ending it. I don’t want to do that, but I can’t have it like this.

Wife: I’ve... kind of decided we have to work on ending it.

Me: All right. What has brought you to this conclusion?

Wife: That... as I was talking to more than one counselor, I just found myself continuing to say, “I don’t want to go back to that same life that I’ve had, and that I want a different life.”

Me: See, I don’t see it as going back to the same life. I see it as, in this case, coming back to a life where we are (a) working on our marriage, in and out of marriage counseling, and (b) working on ourselves, in and out of therapy. I know that’s not necessarily, uh, suddenly moving into a mansion or something, but it’s certainly gotta be better than the status quo.

Wife: I’m not seeing it that way.

Me: Okay. You’re gonna do what you want to do. I don’t have any control over it. You said, in our first marriage counseling session, that you may be making the biggest mistake of your life, and I think that you are. I think that you are fucking up hugely. You say that you understand the risks of what you’re giving up, and I don’t believe that for a minute. I don’t think you have a sense of what you’re giving up... not just me -- somebody who, at least, loves you with all his heart and has some *principles* -- that’s one thing. I think that this is really gonna hurt your relationship with our son; I think just... what you’re giving up in my family, you know, you’ve said my mom is more of a mom to you than your mom; you love my sisters; I mean... what you’re giving it all up for... lemme put it this way: I don’t know what your plan is regarding “H,” if you’re gonna stay with him, if you think that’s a long-term thing, but he is going... to... hurt... you. This is what he does. He finds vulnerable, middle-aged women, and he swoops. A year ago he was telling me how wonderful you were. I don’t think that’s any accident. You know he’s done this before. That’s “H.” There’s not a whole hell of a lot I can do. You’re not gonna see it until you see it. And God forbid -- God *forbid* -- he should do to you what is happening to me right now. I don’t want you to be hurt like that. I love you very, very much -- I don’t want you to be hurt. But I can only yell “Don’t walk over the cliff!” so many times. You’re either gonna hear me, or you’re gonna walk over the cliff. And lemme ask you something: If I hadn’t gotten that phone call, how long would this have played out? What would you have done?

Wife: I don’t know. I was thinking that I would tell you at a counselor’s office or something that I wanted to move out.

Me: How long have you actually been sleeping with “H”?

Wife: Couple of months.

Me: What kind of life are you expecting to get out of this transition? What is it you’re looking for?

Wife: I think the possibility of leaving this area or... maybe I *am* gonna get hurt, and I’m gonna have to be self-sufficient.

Me: Are you thinking this is a long-term prospect with “H”?

Wife: It might be. But I can’t be certain.

Me: No, of course you can’t be certain. I think you need to take a good long look at “H.” He’s been cultivating you for a year. He’s been carefully doing the flattery thing, and the attention thing. He knows exactly what he’s doing.

Basically, all she did was sit there, quietly, looking like she was just about to cry.

At this point, the recorder cut out, which is too bad, because I don’t remember much of the conversation. I raised my voice a lot -- not yelling, but speaking angrily. She really didn’t, though she complained that I was putting words in her mouth, which I was. (Not that they were the *wrong* words, I’m pretty sure.)

I told her I felt she was making this decision lightly, and she said she didn’t want to keep me hanging.

I asked her things like, “How is this acceptable to you? How is it okay to be feeling these awful things, but be unable to tell your husband, and instead just go ahead and enter an affair?”

She said at some point, “Don’t you think I’ve thought about how what I’m doing is hurtful? And I’ve thought about the fact that maybe I could get hurt, that I’m making mistakes.” I said, “Good.”

I said that she’s visiting all the shitty stuff she’s carried with her all her life onto me, and that now she’s leaving me because I couldn’t take her away from all this. Neither will “H.” Or the next guy. What’s she going to do then?

I also told her she’s being a fool.

At one point, as I ended a rant, I said, “And it’d be nice if you’d fucking fight back.” She said, “How? I don’t know what I want to say.” I said, “That’s the problem: You can’t say the things you need to say. But you can slip so easily into an affair, instead of dealing with the problems. It’s pretty sad that neither of us had the confidence to believe that we could express dissatisfaction or anger while being confident that we’d still love each other and would work through the problems.”

I said that at least I have scruples -- something “H” does not. He intrudes on marriages and fucks other men’s wives. “You said in our first counseling session with that woman... I don’t know what I was saying exactly, but I was talking about what “H” is. You said, ‘I don’t let him badmouth *you*.’ And I thought, ‘He doesn’t know enough about me to badmouth, and I’m not fucking *his* wife. I’m certainly not even fucking his *girlfriend*.” This appeared to have no effect on her, but then again, nothing else did.

I asked her if she’d ever had her heart broken -- really broken. She didn’t answer for a bit, then said, “I guess I don’t know.” Well, gee, if you don’t know, then it hasn’t happened -- you’d know if it had. I said that I hoped sincerely that it never happens to her, because it’s the worst. I said, “You know what? It’s worse than losing my father. It’s the worst thing ever. If I were you, I’d develop a belief in God, then pray like hell that this never happens to you.”

I also asked if she’d ever been betrayed -- really betrayed. She didn’t answer. I said, “You can’t imagine what it’s like.” I didn’t elaborate -- I should have, but I guess I couldn’t find the words.

I went on a lot about the foolishness of her choices, and my voice was definitely raised. At one point she stood up and said, “You’re scaring me.” I said “What?” “You’re scaring me!” I said, “What do you think I’m going to do? I’m not gonna hurt you.” She said, “I know, but you’re scaring me!” I said, “That’s the thing. I’m supposed to be able to comfort you and hug you or kiss you now, but I never get to do that again. Or anything else. How do you think that feels?”

I don’t remember how the discussion got here, but I said something like, “And now, are you gonna tell me you got nothing good out of our marriage?” She said, “Of course I’m not going to say that. You know that wouldn’t be true.”

I told her how awful it was for our son, how he was at Christmas. I asked if he’d talked to her, and she said, “He won’t talk to me about it.” I said, “You ever wonder why? I can’t imagine he thinks you’d hear him, or understand what you’re putting him through. Everything stable in his life is being torn out from under him. He said, ‘I feel like I’ll have these two, vague half-families.’ I guess he’ll have to suck it up, though, won’t he? But you’re gonna have to go a long way to repair your relationship with him. Do you realize that? You’re tearing apart his family, and you’re hurting his father. And he’s adamant about staying in this area -- he sure as hell doesn’t want go live with my mom and her cat.”

My wife said, “Well, I have a proposal: How about I live in this apartment with him?” I said, “Oh, that’s good: *You’re* leaving *me*, but *I* have to leave the apartment?” She put up a hand and said, “It’s just a proposal.” I said, “Yeah, well, it ain’t gonna happen.”

I asked if she had a place lined up. “Temporarily,” she said. I asked if “H” was going to provide some financial support, and she said, “I don’t know. Maybe.”

Toward the end, when clearly she wanted to get out of here and away from me, I said, “Well, we’re gonna have to get together a few more times to work things out. Like finances. I know there’s not a lot to split up.” She said, “There’s a lot of debt.” Course, she caused most of it, but still.

Toward the end I said, “Well, I suppose you aren’t gonna change your mind, so if that’s the case... you know what to do.” Which means: You file for divorce. You pay the fees.

Among the things I wish I’d said were:

* “You’ve given me Chlamydia.” To my knowledge, she hasn’t -- there has to be sex first, right? -- but I kind of like the idea of putting a scare into her, if only a brief one.

* “So who do you think is gonna be holding your remaining hairs while you puke from the chemo? ‘H’?”

* “I don’t want you in this apartment unless our son or I am present.”

* “Do you plan to move in with ‘H’? Or marry him?”

* “‘H,’ this ‘man’ who ruins marriages, including his own, is going to live a long, full, happy, painless life, but I get to suffer like this, even though I try to treat people well, even though it hurts me to hurt other people. Why even live? What’s the fucking point?”

Anyway... I'd say there's no hope left, so I need to find a way to stop hoping.

Damn brother I'm sorry. Hurts like hell even though you knew it was coming.

As you responded to me, who the aliens that have suddenly inhabited the people we knew. I'm gonna contend that the person you thought you knew was never there, sometimes we don't see past the mask because we don't want to. Could the woman you loved ever have done this? Well, she did and rather than choose to try and fix it, ran to the hills. In spite of all the good you saw/believed in her, her choice was this. Could the woman you knew ever have done this? No? Then I'm gonna contend that you really never saw who she really was. Wanna see who she really is? Go back and read just your own posts.

The issue never was or is H. This is all on her. He wasn't there with a gun to her had tonight was he. Her choice.

You didn't cause this!

You can't change this or her!

You can't control her!

You now need to be stronger than you ever thought possible. This is not the worst possible outcome. She could have kept you on a string for the next few years. At this point your job becomes making your sons life better without her. What would he do without you as well? The best result from that will be that you will realize that yours is better too.

Best of luck to you my brother. This stuff really sux. Keep posting, this surviving stuff is really tough when you try to do it alone. Wish i would have had this site when i went through it the first 4 times.

Peace

Smoky,

I'm late to this thread, because you had some good advice from a lot of the veterans, but I've been lurking and reading it. I just want to express that I feel for you bro. I'd never have imagined it was possible to cry for over a year until my wife's infidelity. I have an idea how much you must be hurting. Please take care of yourself, and know that you aren't alone.

Like Tred, I have been reading your posts but think others have given you brilliant advice. Just wanted to add my support. My marriage is about to end after 27 years but the affair started almost 4 years ago. I just want to say that although it stings like nothing on earth - and my dad died too, I know how devastating that is - the fact that she's delivered this news may not be the worst outcome. As you go through the breakup, if that's what's happening now, life will be a massive roller-coaster but given the right help, you CAN recover. I had the same gut-wrenching MC experience as you, but bear in mind that many MCs see their role as supporting two people through the end of their marriage, not in helping one person persuade the other to save it. The person who saved my life was my psychotherapist, and to her I owe everything. My kids were 14 and 18 when their dad fell in love with the heroine from the local dramatic society (he played the piano there). They suffered horribly, their relationship with him went through a year of no contact (at their initiation) and is still wounded and rocky. He's still with her and I think probably always will be. But we're friends, and can co-parent amicably. And me? I'm happy. This is the worst bit, Smoky. It does get better. But you will need all the help you can get. The best thing about my situation, btw, is how much closer (even from a close start) my relationship is with my kids, especially my now 18 year old son. They respect me for trying everything I could to hold the family together for over a year of the sort of hell you're in now. And they actually admire me for very positively and proactively moving on once I accepted our marriage was over. Never feel bad about the amount you love her... it speaks volumes about the caring and wonderful man you are.

5454real:

Damn brother I'm sorry. Hurts like hell even though you knew it was coming.

Yeah... I don't look forward to the next several years. And trying to sleep was a total picnic, too.

As you responded to me, who the aliens that have suddenly inhabited the people we knew. I'm gonna contend that the person you thought you knew was never there, sometimes we don't see past the mask because we don't want to. Could the woman you loved ever have done this? Well, she did and rather than choose to try and fix it, ran to the hills. In spite of all the good you saw/believed in her, her choice was this. Could the woman you knew ever have done this? No? Then I'm gonna contend that you really never saw who she really was. Wanna see who she really is? Go back and read just your own posts.

Well, I've started to think, "Who *is* this woman?" However, yeah: the woman I love *could* have done this. She did, back in 1983. I just thought she'd "grown out of" this kind of nonsense. Back then we hadn't lived together or anything, but even so, she wanted to see if she could find a "different life." About all I can do is hope this works for her, and that she doesn't hit the ground hard, like I think she's going to.

The issue never was or is H. This is all on her. He wasn't there with a gun to her had tonight was he. Her choice.

You didn't cause this! 
You can't change this or her! 
You can't control her!

Boy, do I know I can't control her. I think she feels that I had *been* controlling her -- she didn't say, and I didn't ask -- but the fact is, it's *always* been about her and what she wants. This is not to say that I was anything like a perfect husband, but... where we lived? Her choice. What we drove? Her choice. Kids? Her choice. (As I've said earlier, when we first entered marriage counseling in 1990 -- at a time when she was having an emotional affair that I didn't know about yet -- it was mostly because I kept waffling about starting a family, although she felt strongly that she needed to.)



You now need to be stronger than you ever thought possible. This is not the worst possible outcome. She could have kept you on a string for the next few years. At this point your job becomes making your sons life better without her. What would he do without you as well? The best result from that will be that you will realize that yours is better too.

God, I hope so. I really do. I keep wanting to believe that this is for the best, but I do love her so very much, and seeing her with this asshole is bloody agony.

My son is indeed a big worry. He may have no choice but to move out of town with me. He'll be angry with me either way. Also -- call it spite -- I will not let my wife take over the apartment. If she starts making noises like that again, I'll give notice right away. If she hopes to stay here, with our son, she'll have to find a new place, one that's crappier, more expensive, or both. I suppose that's a lousy thing to do to my son, but I also think that the two of them living together, without me to buffer between them, is a really bad idea. An even worse idea is the two of them living with "H," which I have to think is a possibility.

Best of luck to you my brother. This stuff really sux. Keep posting, this surviving stuff is really tough when you try to do it alone. Wish i would have had this site when i went through it the first 4 times.

Thanks so much, and I'm sorry this has happened to you even once, let alone four times.

Tred:

I'm late to this thread, because you had some good advice from a lot of the veterans, but I've been lurking and reading it. I just want to express that I feel for you bro. I'd never have imagined it was possible to cry for over a year until my wife's infidelity. I have an idea how much you must be hurting. Please take care of yourself, and know that you aren't alone.

Thanks, Tred. I'm trying to take care of myself, and it's not easy. I'm out walking nearly every day -- a fairly new thing for me, since it's been so easy to be sedentary for so long -- and I'm making myself eat. The sleep is the big issue, but since it's been so poor for 29 years, my therapist wants to address it and see if it's psychological rather than physical. That'll be a long process, I think, but at least it's something to focus on, rather than this situation.

If there's any good in this, it's probably that she's cutting me loose fairly quickly, and I'll move on because I have to.

As I've said to others here, though I appreciate being able to unload in the presence of people who have been in the same situation, I'm sorry you've been through this. No one should have to endure it -- except schmucks like "H" (although no punishment I can think of would be good enough).

If SI offered a Facebook style “like” button I would be pressing crazynot’s comment. A real positive and realistic outlook.

Smoky – What she said is simply what she said. It’s only valid now. It’s not set in stone. Not any more than the vows she made when she married you. So don’t take what she says as an absolute truth – it’s simply her reality NOW.

Having said that… Not taking her reality now seriously would be a great mistake. But then – basing your actions on her reality would also be a great mistake. Do that and you would have to act and react to each and every one of her changes. Take control – set your own path and start walking.

I still stick to my advice: Move out of infidelity.

Think of it this way: Imagine you really needed to take a train-trip (in the 1950’s) and you wanted your wife to come with you. She says no. So you ask her to take you to the station and she does so. In the parking lot you ask her to join you. She says no but she follows you to the ticket booth. At the booth you ask her to come with you. You even buy 2 tickets and offer her one (she accepts it but says she isn’t coming anyway). At the platform you ask her to come. She says no. You enter the train, asking her to come. She refuses. You open the window and ask her to come with you. She might even take your hand as she says no. The train set’s off. You move off… she doesn’t follow…

At each and every step you offered her a way to come with you but short of pulling her aboard the train there is only so much you can do. At some point your journey will get you a certain distance from her where it won’t be possible to reunite but I can promise you this: At that point it will be YOUR choice, not hers.

Focus on you. Don’t focus on ending the marriage, that’s simply a process. Just focus on being your best for yourself.

Some thoughts to keep in mind: A divorce isn’t an alternative to marriage; it’s the termination of a marriage. It’s not necessary to be friends, but it’s not mandatory to be enemies. The only “goal” and only really important aim is to be good co-parents. Don’t make things any harder than they need to be so focus on real issues (like a fair division of real assets and real debt) rather than who gets the cutlery and who gets the Bruce Springsteen CD’s.

crazynot:

Like Tred, I have been reading your posts but think others have given you brilliant advice. Just wanted to add my support. My marriage is about to end after 27 years but the affair started almost 4 years ago. I just want to say that although it stings like nothing on earth - and my dad died too, I know how devastating that is - the fact that she's delivered this news may not be the worst outcome.

I'm hoping that's the case. She definitely could have strung me along for much longer, but I was already very close to saying what Bigger suggested.

As you go through the breakup, if that's what's happening now, life will be a massive roller-coaster but given the right help, you CAN recover.

Well, roller-coasters sometimes go *up* as well as down. It doesn't feel like there'll be any ups.

I had the same gut-wrenching MC experience as you, but bear in mind that many MCs see their role as supporting two people through the end of their marriage, not in helping one person persuade the other to save it.

To be honest, I felt that the first counselor was looking to support *one* person through the end of her marriage, but that the second one would have done everything he could to salvage it. I don't know that he would have succeeded -- I think my wife was already firmly out the door.

The person who saved my life was my psychotherapist, and to her I owe everything.

This is what I'm hoping for. Think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but previously I haven't done all that well in therapy because I'd complain about my boss or whoever was pissing me off at the moment, or I'd talk about dreams, or whatever, but I had a lot of trouble getting to core issues, and I never really defined them. I think I have a better handle on them now, but we'll see.

My kids were 14 and 18 when their dad fell in love with the heroine from the local dramatic society (he played the piano there).

I met my wife in community theater, when I was almost 21 and she was 19. We started dating over a year later, after the second show we did. She had done a lot of shows -- she *had* to be aware that community theater is a hotbed for sexual relationships of all kinds. In fact, in the second show we were in, one of the women -- a very sweet individual -- had started dating this somewhat older guy with a well-deserved reputation for nailing anything that moved. Her husband used to show up at rehearsals and just stare at them, which was kind of unnerving. She ended up marrying the guy, having a kid with him, and divorcing him because he couldn't keep it in his pants. (He especially liked teenagers -- indeed had gone after my sister some years before, when she was 16 -- and still, he says, gets a "tingle" 40 years later. He's a likable guy -- but a sicko.)

They suffered horribly, their relationship with him went through a year of no contact (at their initiation) and is still wounded and rocky.

I haven't yet told my son about my wife's visit last night, but I know it's not gonna go well. For his and my wife's sake, I hope he doesn't freeze her out. He doesn't hold grudges, but this is such a big deal. Of course, a part of me hopes he *does* freeze her out, but that would just be worse for him, and I really don't want him to suffer any more than he has to.

He's still with her and I think probably always will be. But we're friends, and can co-parent amicably.

I suspect we'll be able to do the same, though I don't think we'll ever be friends again. I really think that once the dust settles, she wants zero to do with me, though I know she doesn't actively hate me or anything. Right now, though, I hate *her* a little....

And me? I'm happy. This is the worst bit, Smoky. It does get better.

You don't know how much I hope you're right. I'm glad you're happy -- I've always wondered what "happy" would be like. And while I do want my wife to be happy, I'd rather *I* was happy, if given a choice. (Before this came down, I would have said I'd rather *she* be happy.)

But you will need all the help you can get. The best thing about my situation, btw, is how much closer (even from a close start) my relationship is with my kids, especially my now 18 year old son. They respect me for trying everything I could to hold the family together for over a year of the sort of hell you're in now. And they actually admire me for very positively and proactively moving on once I accepted our marriage was over. Never feel bad about the amount you love her... it speaks volumes about the caring and wonderful man you are.

Thank you for your concern and kindness. As sad as I am for what you've gone through, it's encouraging to see that it can get better.

[This message edited by Smoky at 9:57 AM, January 5th (Saturday)]

Bigger:

Smoky – What she said is simply what she said. It’s only valid now. It’s not set in stone. Not any more than the vows she made when she married you. So don’t take what she says as an absolute truth – it’s simply her reality NOW.

Having said that… Not taking her reality now seriously would be a great mistake. But then – basing your actions on her reality would also be a great mistake. Do that and you would have to act and react to each and every one of her changes. Take control – set your own path and start walking.

That's what I'm thinking as well. I'm treating it as though it *is* absolute -- i.e., she's out -- but maintaining the (admittedly minuscule) hope that it's not permanent... but figuring that I still have to live as though it *is*.

I still stick to my advice: Move out of infidelity. Think of it this way: Imagine you really needed to take a train-trip (in the 1950’s) and you wanted your wife to come with you. She says no. So you ask her to take you to the station and she does so. In the parking lot you ask her to join you. She says no but she follows you to the ticket booth. At the booth you ask her to come with you. You even buy 2 tickets and offer her one (she accepts it but says she isn’t coming anyway). At the platform you ask her to come. She says no. You enter the train, asking her to come. She refuses. You open the window and ask her to come with you. She might even take your hand as she says no. The train set’s off. You move off… she doesn’t follow…

At each and every step you offered her a way to come with you but short of pulling her aboard the train there is only so much you can do. At some point your journey will get you a certain distance from her where it won’t be possible to reunite but I can promise you this: At that point it will be YOUR choice, not hers.

This is what I want -- i.e., whether we reunite to be *my* choice, if only to feel as though I have some say, for a change. But mostly my hope is just to move ahead with my life, get the therapy I need (and that's the big one -- I really want it to take hold this time), help my son live *his* life, etc. I hope some day to be in a relationship again, though, obviously, I'm not exactly out trawling now.

Focus on you. Don’t focus on ending the marriage, that’s simply a process. Just focus on being your best for yourself.

Well, my intent is to let *her* focus on ending it. She can pay the fees (or let her sugar-daddy do it), or at least get the ball rolling, etc. And maybe she'll actually make the effort -- sad as that will be, it will have to be better than continuing to be hopeful for something that ain't gonna happen.

Some thoughts to keep in mind: A divorce isn’t an alternative to marriage; it’s the termination of a marriage. It’s not necessary to be friends, but it’s not mandatory to be enemies. The only “goal” and only really important aim is to be good co-parents. Don’t make things any harder than they need to be so focus on real issues (like a fair division of real assets and real debt) rather than who gets the cutlery and who gets the Bruce Springsteen CD’s.

Luckily, we have almost no assets. Plenty of debt, though. Neither of us is good at managing money, and she's got something of a shopping addiction -- which, in large part, is responsible for the boatloads of credit-card debt we've encountered over the years. She's never made more than about $37K, and I've never made more than, I think, $43K, which, where we live, is practically like trying to survive on jury-duty pay.

One of the main things I need to focus on is to help get my son working. He's kind of paralyzed, not just because of all this but due to his worry about his future -- doesn't know whether to work or go to school, so he's doing neither. I'm encouraging him to do both -- not on a full-time basis. But when you're 18, you're going to get horrible entry-level jobs, and that's a tough sell. Either way, if he can find a way to pull down $200 a week, it'd go a reasonably long way toward what he wants, which is to stay in our current place.

Meanwhile, as I've said, I don't think we'll ever really be friends again, or even comfortable around each other -- but then again, maybe it'll be different 10 years from now; who knows? I don't see her as an enemy, though I think she's seeing *me* that way, if only because she's been on the receiving end of my anger for a whole four weeks now.

Thanks again for your counsel -- it's really been helpful.

Smoky

I am so sorry it has come to this BUT now you know exactly where you stand with her.

I don't like to give advice as I have not gone thru half of what most SIers have, but I just want to say YOU will be OK. With the guidance you will get here you will come out stronger.

27 years is a long time. It looks like she has disrespected you most of your marriage so at this point it can't get much worse for you.

As hard as it will be for you you need to let her suffer the consequences that she has created. She sounds like she is of the mind her life will be unicorns and f'n rainbows once she is on her own. Well buddy let her find out the truth!!

Sending hugs to you and your son. I am sorry it will be so devastating for him too. Just be there for him. He will come to see who the real parent is. (and that will be you )

i am so sorry this is all happening. i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a good job taking care of you and your son. please continue to do just that....focus on you.

dont go run down and file for divorce. not yet. it is too soon. she is in the fog...clearly. there is no guarantee that she will come out of it....i hope she does because anyone reading your posts can see how much you love your wife..and want to keep your family together.

sooooo, considering that...there is no need to rush to the divorce lawyer. there is plenty of time for that. i would 180 her seriously though....and go no contact with her unless it is about money or your son. continue with your ic...forget about the mc with her...she is not there yet...and it will do no good because she s not remorseful, or ready to own the destruction she has caused. she is in la la land and thinks she is in "real luv."

as much as it hurts..and as hard as it is...move forward...taking care of you. dont call her, text her, figure out ways to talk to her...nothing....as some wise SIer say on here...go "crickets."

you have done exactly what you needed to do. you told her that you wanted to save the marriage but that you would not share her. she decided to go her own way.

my mom told me a long time ago...and i wish i would have listend..but she said "if he wants to go, let his ass go. that is the only way you can ever get him back with any self respect." and she was right.

consider reading this great book by james dobson called "love must be tough."

and that is what you have to be. if she wants to leave...let her go...and focus on you and your son.

at the end of the day, during that time, you will be getting stronger, wiser, and really understanding and believing your self worth. hopefully, she will come around and want to r with you...the right way, on your terms, with professionl help guiding you through. and if she doesnt..then you are only that much further ahead in your healing....and can proceed with d.

happy to PM with you if you ever want to talk.

Smokey}}}} Side bro hugs to you man.

I know it must have been hard to have that face to face with your WW and hear point blank what you already knew in your heart, but still didn't really want to hear.

So now you know for sure and if there is any positive in that, it's that you're not living in limbo any longer and you have a clear path going forward.

I know you've heard this over and over from other SI'ers, but it's imperative now for you to buckle up and begin to take care of YOU. I don't want this to sound harsh but please for your own health and overall well being, you need to curtail any more thoughts about trying to save things with WW. You need to completely detach from her my friend and go total NC. The first line in the 180 reads "Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore." That is even more valid now than it was before your face to face meeting with WW.

BTW, going NC and adhering to that line in the 180 has nothing to do with teaching your WW a lesson, winning her back etc.. Without sounding redundant, it has NOTHING to do with her at all. It is specifically meant for YOUR benefit to help you detach and move on with your life without her. You must admit to yourself that you have no control over WW, "H" or the fantasy bubble they're in. The only thing you can control now is YOU and your well being my friend! If someday your WW finds a way to fix what's broken in herself and offers to come back, then you can decide on your own terms if that is what you really want. Again, that is totally up to her. You can't chase or control it so for now, you must find a way to detach and move on.

Smoke, I am in the same situation as you right now, albeit a little further along (my WW left on 9/27/12 and I filed for D on 10/27/12). I also have a son (22) currently living with me. My son, like yours was angry, hurt and confused when WW first left. Not so much by what she did (i.e. her A) but because he felt abandoned by her when she left. He went though any number of emotions including an ill advised rant on a social networking site where he posted that WW was in essence dead to him. I was lucky and got proactive in getting him into counseling right away to address those feelings. While he and his mother are not 100% yet, they have reconnected somewhat and he now realizes that what WW & I are going though is not about him and that she is still his mom and always will be.

From your posts I know how much you love your son and how much you are concerned for him. I only state the above as an example that young people are way more perceptive & resilient than we sometimes give them credit for. Please try and give him enough space as a young adult to allow him to process all this in his own way. I think you'll be amazed & proud of how he handles it all in the long run.

Wishing you the best my friend and always remember that you are not alone in this. We ARE here for you.

[This message edited by PanicAttack53 at 3:04 AM, January 6th (Sunday)]

Smoky, just to add that as far as therapy is concerned, and its potential in reaching a state of happiness, I note and identify with what you say about it not having worked for you in the past, and what is necessary for it to work. I was never a 'happy' person before now - I had a big bad thing happen (not abuse) in childhood that affected me. I suffered from depressive/panic episodes that affected those around me. It was feeling as bad as it's possible to feel, after the affair was discovered, that made me realise I needed medical/psych support. And all of that led me to a place where I felt better than I ever did, even though 'he' had left and was never coming back. It's been an odd time, but all in all I would not have things any other way. For you, this is very fresh, and the feelings are as intense as hell. I'd urge you to seek help in dealing with the agony, but also send a beacon of hope - this feeling is as bad as it gets, and some day it will stop, but you have to let it. This is why those whose spouses do not leave, but continue to disrespect and cheat in secret, have the worst deal of all.

Smoky, i just caught your thread, and i'm amazed at the horrid tale you've told. this is totally INSANE!

i really don't see how you can hang on to hope when it's clear as day-- your wife has CHECKED-OUT!

you also mentioned that her family has no idea of her behavior. why haven't you exposed this to them(family & friends)? why haven't you exposed her and this POS "H" to the folks in the theater company? you can't "nice" this woman into coming back. you need to play "hardball" with these people. by no means is this a tactic for her to return to the marriage, but rather to bust up the fantasy she's living in(affairs thrive in secrecy). you need to do this stat.

i also think your son is old enough to know what his mother is doing..... why this marriage is coming to an apparent end. he's an adult, who you say already has an inkling of what's going on.

i feel for you, man.

[This message edited by simplePete at 8:30 AM, January 6th (Sunday)]

still2suspicious:

I am so sorry it has come to this BUT now you know exactly where you stand with her.

I don't like to give advice as I have not gone thru half of what most SIers have, but I just want to say YOU will be OK. With the guidance you will get here you will come out stronger.

Again, you folks have been immeasurably helpful. I'm hoping my therapist can help this much, though I'm not sure how much confidence I have: Our second appointment, she wanted me to yell at a chair filled with an imaginary "H." I just felt stupid.

Meanwhile, I saw the marriage counselor yesterday -- kind of pointless, really, since the horse is so many light-years from the barn now. He had nothing real helpful to say, though he did reveal that my wife had already told him *last* Saturday that she'd made her decision. He had asked her to tell me before my appointment with him.

When she called me Friday night, she asked when my appointment would be, then said we should talk *afterwards*, saying, "I don't think it's what you want to hear." So she was perfectly willing to keep me hanging that much longer *and* not do what the counselor asked.

Anyway, he told me -- I think he told her, too -- that he doesn't recommend divorce because it's a painful, prolonged, expensive, awful process. That had no effect on her, obviously. He also told me that a couple things she said about "H" raised red flags, though I don't know if he said that to *her*.

He gave me a book title and a suggestion for a "grief" group I should get into (mainly about my dad's death), and said what everybody else says: That I've gotta buck up and move forward, and to basically leave Kim alone, and when I do see her, to present confidence and "quality." So I'll try. Meanwhile, obviously, we won't be seeing him again....

27 years is a long time. It looks like she has disrespected you most of your marriage so at this point it can't get much worse for you.

I don't know what to say to that. I don't doubt that she loved me and still does, but I think the fact is that I've always loved her more than she ever *could* love me. The disrespect, I suppose, would come in the form of being unable to tell me about her anger or dissatisfaction -- in which case, I guess you could say I disrespected her the same way. However, I expressed my anger more often than she did, usually in sharp remarks. As a for-instance... I've mentioned that one of her big hardons with me was my lack of help with the housework. (Never mind that I did about 75% of the cooking, paid the bills, and took care of the money stuff, such as it is.) I just really hate cleaning (though I'm learning to get over *that* lately...).

So in the last, say, year and a half, on a couple of occasions, I started to realize that just about the only times she'd talk to me were when she wanted me to perform some household task. And instead of just saying, "Have you noticed that the only times you talk to me lately are when you want me to perform some household task?" I just kept it bottled up until eventually snapping for about 15 seconds. And I think, but I'm not certain, that *she* thought that I was angry because she was nagging me; but the requests themselves didn't bother me -- it was the fact that that's *all* she had to say to me. Last time this happened was in November -- probably about the time she started sleeping with "H."

Anyway, I'd love to believe things can't get worse, but life has taught me that every time I *say* that....

As hard as it will be for you you need to let her suffer the consequences that she has created. She sounds like she is of the mind her life will be unicorns and f'n rainbows once she is on her own. Well buddy let her find out the truth!!

I really have no choice. As I told her the other night, I can only yell "You're heading for a cliff" so many times before she either hears me or goes over.

My mom, meanwhile, is *so* angry with my wife, whom she had considered a "third daughter" all this time. She actually said, "I hope she'll be miserable, and I hope this guy really hurts her." (While my mom is given to carrying the occasional grudge, I'd never known her to be vindictive.) And, well, while I hope for my wife to be happy *eventually*, I also hope this will all be awful for her... though she'll be so stubborn to the point of believing that being with me is, at all times, the greatest of all evils.

Sending hugs to you and your son. I am sorry it will be so devastating for him too. Just be there for him. He will come to see who the real parent is. (and that will be you )

Thanks. Here's the thing about my son, and I can't remember if I mentioned it already: He's a very sharp, on-the-ball kid, more so than I was at that age, and, in some ways, at *this* age. He's definitely wise beyond his years, and very mature -- in some ways. However, he was very tough to raise -- we felt outnumbered, and we've only got the one kid. He was never "bad" -- never destructive, interested in drugs or alcohol, never did anything remotely criminal -- but he was really "demonstrative" in his displeasure. He'd have meltdowns -- up to an age long after you'd figure that stuff should stop.

He utterly did not thrive in a regular classroom setting, and eventually he was diagnosed first with ADHD... then bipolar disorder... then Asperger's syndrome. I have no idea which of those, if any, are accurate, since there are a lot of overlapping characteristics. (Anyway, he is indeed somewhat stunted, socially, and he has trouble looking people in the eye or speaking up over noise -- you know, like ordering in a restaurant.)

So he was in various Special Education settings from fifth grade through high school -- he did really well from seventh grade onwards, though he still has a pretty major math block. But he feels that his high school program gave him a lot of skills to help cope with everyday misfortunes. However, it didn't prepare him for anything like this -- how could it?

So (he said, getting to the point...) he emerged from his room yesterday, and I said, "We'd better talk. Mom came over last night, and the short version is, she wants out, for good. She doesn't want to return to 'this life,' she wants a 'different life.' I don't know what that means either."

(Okay, maybe I was subconsciously placing all the blame on her. Call it anger. I really don't want to drive them apart any further than they are, though.)

He didn't ask many questions. He barely talked at all. I continued to try and talk, saying that we really had to kind of rally the troops and move forward, and that if we hoped to keep this place, he'd have to work -- something he's already been thinking about.

Mostly he sat in that chair, unable to speak. I mean *literally*. Devastated. I'd ask questions, he wouldn't answer. Eventually he'd shake his head one way or the other:

"Do you want to talk to Mom?" No.

"Do you want me to leave you alone?" No.

"Do you want me to stop talking" No.

I urged him to get therapy, as I have before, and told him that this stuff is too big to keep to himself, that talking it out is a much more likely way to heal than *not* talking about it -- especially if he can talk about it to impartial adults who (a) want to help him, and (b) know how to do so.

Eventually he got up, grabbed some paper and a pen, and began *writing his answers*.

I asked, "Do you feel like you're going to snap?" That's the expression he used on Christmas, meaning that he feared he'd just collapse in on himself and be unable to do anything.

He wrote: "Maybe too late."

I said, "I know this sounds improbable, but it's what everybody's telling *me*: It's awful now, but it'll get better."

"'Better' isn't good enough," he wrote.

"What would be good enough?"

"For things to be the way they were."

"Well, that's not good enough for me, either. There would have to be some changes, but Mom's not open to trying again."

I asked if he'd like me to call counselors he knows through school and his post-school resources, and he wrote "Yeah." So I left a message for a guy I'd talked to on his behalf just after Christmas, and then I left a message for his therapist from high school (who later left a message: "I'm really sorry things have gotten so much worse for your family, but I thought it made it clear when we talked after Christmas that he isn't one of my kids anymore, and the people he needs to talk to are the ones I gave you phone numbers for"; in fact, she *hadn't* made that clear, though she had provided the numbers -- she had told me, even before he graduated, that she wanted to stay in touch with him; silly me, thinking that she actually gave a shit and would talk to him while he's in crisis). I told him we'd most likely hear from someone on Monday.

He sat down and started playing the cheap electronic keyboard that I gave him for Christmas. I did e-mail for a while, then went to lie down and read. He came in after half an hour with a note: "Can we be anywhere but here right now?" So we went for a drive, during which he was at least able to talk. Mostly we talked about money, living expenses, work, jobs, etc., so that was good, and then we got dinner. Back home, we pretty much went to our separate corners.

I think I need to e-mail this information to my wife, after texting her: "See your e-mail -- urgent stuff about our son." But I'm sort of averse to contacting her at all right now, even though this is rather important. Not only that, but he doesn't *want* talk to her, and, as she said Friday, she hasn't been able to get him to talk about the situation at all. He's really angry with her, and I told her in so many words that she's really damaging her relationship with him. But... what do you think? Should I send that stuff to her anyway? (I really don't think I want to actually *speak* with her right now.)

sri624:

i am so sorry this is all happening. i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a good job taking care of you and your son. please continue to do just that....focus on you.

dont go run down and file for divorce. not yet. it is too soon. she is in the fog...clearly. there is no guarantee that she will come out of it....i hope she does because anyone reading your posts can see how much you love your wife..and want to keep your family together.

First... everybody, I hope it's not too annoying that my posts tend to be really long (not always including other people's quotes) -- I tend to write long. So my apologies, if necessary.

Second: At the moment, I don't plan to file. I told her, in essence, that if she wants a divorce, she'll have to get the ball rolling. She can pay the fees. If she asks me for money for that, I'll tell her to stick it. (I do think, however, that she'll get things started fairly soon.)

As for the fog... I think that's gonna be there whether or not "H" stays in the picture. She wants this "different life," so she's already in a fantasy world of *some* kind. She knows very well that I love her tremendously, but this, as she put it, "isn't enough." Which really means, "It ain't worth shit."

sooooo, considering that...there is no need to rush to the divorce lawyer. there is plenty of time for that. i would 180 her seriously though....and go no contact with her unless it is about money or your son. continue with your ic...forget about the mc with her...she is not there yet...and it will do no good because she s not remorseful, or ready to own the destruction she has caused. she is in la la land and thinks she is in "real luv."

I agree with all that, and it's how I hope to proceed. Based on something she said -- in reply to my suggestion that she take a good, hard look at the "man" she's choosing, she said, "I can do that," or something similar -- I'm thinking that she's already questioning her "relationship" with "H." That, of course, doesn't come close to meaning that she'll run back to me -- if anything, her stubbornness will, I think, push her away even more, just because she doesn't want me to be right.

as much as it hurts..and as hard as it is...move forward...taking care of you. dont call her, text her, figure out ways to talk to her...nothing....as some wise SIer say on here...go "crickets."

I'm very much on the same page with you there. As difficult as it is, I *don't* want to contact her right now, except with regard to the stuff about my son that I mentioned in my last post. I guess I'd have to couch it in terms of, "I don't want to see your relationship with him get any worse."

you have done exactly what you needed to do. you told her that you wanted to save the marriage but that you would not share her. she decided to go her own way.

my mom told me a long time ago...and i wish i would have listend..but she said "if he wants to go, let his ass go. that is the only way you can ever get him back with any self respect." and she was right.

This is pretty much what the marriage counselor said yesterday, and really, it's what everybody here has been saying all along. What he suggested was trying to spend as much time with people as possible -- "up" people, he said. (Well, I don't know a whole lot of "up" people, but still....) That's probably good advice, but it'll be tough to follow. But he also said to try to be confident and show "quality," show that the therapy is going well, that I'm coping just fine and moving forward, etc. Well, good luck there....

consider reading this great book by james dobson called "love must be tough."

and that is what you have to be. if she wants to leave...let her go...and focus on you and your son.

I haven't heard of that, but I'll look it up. The counselor suggested "Surviving the Loss of a Love" by McWilliams et al., saying that it's about 100 pages full of tiny chapters meant to be read at the rate of one per day -- given that people in this situation are likely to be unable to concentrate on much more than that. So I've already ordered it, and I'll look into the Dobson book.

at the end of the day, during that time, you will be getting stronger, wiser, and really understanding and believing your self worth. hopefully, she will come around and want to r with you...the right way, on your terms, with professionl help guiding you through. and if she doesnt..then you are only that much further ahead in your healing....and can proceed with d.

That all sounds good. It sure is what I hope for -- for myself, and for all of you in this situation.

And thanks so much for your concern and words of wisdom.