SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

An attack on sftk's? You have got to be kidding me. Please point out where I attacked stfk's, MrSpock. I am really quite dismayed that you feel I attacked him.

I feel my response to his generalizing all BS's was respectful. A request for him to speak for himself, not me. "We betrayed folks try to cope" ...no, he doesn't get to speak for me on how I "try to cope". If he had used "I" in how he copes by rationalizing and bullshitting himself, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Or, if he even wrote "some betrayed folks" that would be fine. But, no, he doesn't get to use "we" which includes me, as a "betrayed folk".

Well if 52% of marriages end in D, then that means one is in good company whether its D or R.

Also the 'ending in divorce' statistic includes WSs that are not remorseful or won't end the A. Or have more than one A.

My guess in talking with some therapists is that if the A is a one timer and the WS is remorseful, then R success is better than 50%. However, I don't think that most WSs are remorseful in a one time blow up. I think a lot of WSs are in relationship exit mode and are just too selfish to let the BS know. They don't want to be married but make the BS end it. Oh well.

WWTL, you are not pathetic. At the end of the day, you have to do what you feel is best for you. You have been honest with your wife about your plans. I wish you all the best. All paths are difficult after infidelity.

SisterMilkshake...

The "attacking" comment has been addressed privately. No need to worry.

Lets please get back to posting support for WWTL

Thanks!

Wtl

To be clear. The dating world for will not be what you think. Given you are only seperated, quality women will not date you.

Your WW will be able to date at will. She will outdate if she choses.

Once you are D you will be able to date better but will still be a lot less than her.

However, you will more likely be able to remarry. You more than likely will be able to trade up looks and have a younger wife.

She on the other hand will need to trade down to find a new mate.

Yes, this is a T/J. I have done it because statistics are regularly misused, and the misuse hurts people who are trying to understand the world.

This debate is irrelevant to waitedwaytoolong. I'm not worried about waited - he seems to understand SI's rule 1 - accept what makes sense, and reject the rest.

I am concerned about MrSpock and, now, anothermr, who speak with utter confidence in their positions, based in part on what appears to be statistical evidence, and their statistical evidence is more than questionable.

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anothermr:

You know, those things don't go together, right?

Umm...I see a big difference between bias and randomness. The Literary Digest poll of 1936, which predicted a landslide for Alf Landon, failed because it wasn't random, but it's question was pretty unbiased.

A good random sample of US adults can be asked biased questions. The results will be garbage. For example, 'Which tastes better - this great tasting candy or this yucky vegetable? We'll give you a case of the candy if you choose it.'

The answers of a self-selected group of individuals who visit a site named www.dearpeggy.com can't be used to extrapolate to any other demographic.

1) PV's responders did not find her site and then answer surveys. 2) Every study of infidelity that I've seen except the General Social Survey uses self-selected respondents. 3) No one with any basic knowledge of statistics thinks or argues that PV's data is valid for anything but the responders.

Her conclusions are suggestive, though.

given the frequency of divorce, 33% of all divorces for any given year for which we have data would exceed the 50% mark of any credible annual infidelity rate I have seen published, so it would appear that most marriages do not survive infidelity.

You seem to be saying 33% in a given year is more than a 50% annual rate. IOW, a 33% annual rate equals a 50% annual rate. If you come back to this, please show us all your math. Or did you not say what you mean?

Much more important, though, is the fact the percentage of Ds in which infidelity is cited as a cause says nothing about the percentage of Ms with infidelity end in D.

Here's the word problem:

There are 1,200,000 annual Ds in the US. 400,000 of them cite infidelity as one cause. How many US Ms experience infidelity?

The data you've given data seem insufficient for solving it.

Amato, Paul R., and Stacy J. Rogers. 1997. “A Longitudinal Study of Marital Problems and Subsequent Divorce.” Journal of Marriage and the Family 59(3):612–24.

My budget doesn't allow me to spend $20 on this. I'd have to give up higher priority items to buy the article. But the study shows

'...infidelity has been shown to be related to increased marital distress, conflict, and divorce (Amato & Rogers, 1997.'

Not shocking to any member of SI....

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MrSpock:

I trust you realize that simply repeating your statistics is not at all the same as citing sources, and for the most part, all you did was repeat yourself.

I searched on ‘katie crown divorce’, ‘kate crown divorce’, and ‘katherine crown divorce’ and found noting relevant – a Canadian actress, a singer, Kate Middleton, Katie Holmes – no articles or books on divorce or infidelity.

A search on ‘Holmes infidelity divorce’ brings up stuff like a Houston family law practice, more Katie Holmes … but not articles or books with statistics. Please provide something more than ‘holmes’; even a first name might help.

I look forward to getting more info on the NYT article(s) - when the report on a study, they usually point the reader to the actual study.

If NYP mean the NY Post, skip it - any relation between what the Post says and reality is coincidental, as far as I can tell.

Thank you for specifying 'Infidelity and Behavioral Couple Therapy: Relationship Outcomes Over 5 Years Following Therapy' as a source. I am surprised, however, at the weight you give it.

First, the article came from a study comparing the effects of 2 types of MC. That is, the authors did one study and then picked out the couples who experienced infidelity. This is bass-ackwards, if the goal is to study infidelity.

Second, the number of couples experiencing infidelity was 19! 19. I have a hard time getting over that. To call any conclusions coming from a sample this small is to stretch the meaning of 'suggestive'. Sure, it's a data point, and the more data points the better, but 19? That's awfully small.

Third, the 80% D rate for 'secret infidelity' means 4 out of 5 couples D'ed. If 19 is small, 5 is simply too small to pay any attention to.

Very gently, MrSpock, I think you quote this 80% D rate only because it supports your gut. I cannot imagine any other reason for going through your Procrustean manipulation of this article.

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Here's the thing: statistics are meaningless to individual cases. It doesn't matter to anyone how many people D after infidelity as long that person is in the group he wants to be in.

But a number of members believe that the majority of men who are betrayed D, and they push those beliefs on others.

I trust readers who have followed this thread realize that those folks have provided no usable data to back up their beliefs. Unless they do, I hope no one buys into anything but uncertainty about the rate of D among betrayed men (and women).

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:19 PM, August 21st (Sunday)]

I am not sure, but isn't Retrouvaille for marriage counseling? What I am reading here isn't about the marriage or his wife. Although the communication still seems to be an issue.

It is about himself. He can't reconcile within himself. You call it pride. I see it as a line of respect was crossed multiple times and you can't reconcile that. There is nothing wrong with that. Even if it took you 5 years to try and it didn't work. There is a reason why people divorce. You shouldn't feel any shame for being different. Not less. Not weak. Just different. We all are. If this is just too much to get over on a moral and character level then it just is. I wish you peace.

Please hold off on dating till you divorce. Dating while separated will prove nothing to you. You know you are worth more than how you were treated. We all do. That is why it is so difficult to go this path in R.

If your wife is comparing you to the other BH on here when it comes to R and crying foul, then I would seriously wonder if she is remorseful as opposed to being regretful. I understand that she would want her family, but she should want what is best for your peace of mind as well. If getting away from the source of your pain is what you need to breath, then that is what you need. I have been there. She has been reading about this for a long time on here so none of this should come as a shock or surprise for her. Do not let her make you feel bad about it taking 5yrs. She has known since the moment she read your first post. No matter how perfect of a R wayward she is, there are no guarantees that R will work. She is not entitled to it to work just because she was the model wayward. Yeah, it sucks. So is being cheated on. You can't force it to work anymore than she could go back in time and undo it all.

Again, I hope and pray you find the peace you are looking for. It will happen when it happens for you. You are just a soul that needs more time.

Retrouvaille is for marriages that are on the verge of divorcing. It isn't marriage counseling, It helps couples communicate on a deeper level.

No, hopefulmother, Retrouvaille is not Marriage Counseling. sorrowfulmate is correct that Retrouvaille is for marriages in crisis, on the brink of divorce, or just very bad marriages. There is a link in the Healing Library to Retrouvaille, From their site:

RETROUVAILLE™

... A LIFELINE FOR MARRIAGES™

A program to Help Couples Heal and Renew their Marriages.

Do you feel lost, alone or bored in your marriage?

Are you frustrated, hurt or angry with your spouse?

Are you constantly fighting? Or, do you simply shut down?

Have you thought about separation or divorce?

Does talking about it only make it worse?

... Retrouvaille provides marriage help!

What is a Retrouvaille Program?

The word Retrouvaille™ (pronounced re-tro-vi with a long i.) is a French word meaning rediscovery. The program offers tools needed to rediscover a loving marriage relationship. Thousands of couples headed for cold, unloving relationships or divorce have successfully overcome their marriage problems by attending the program.

There is no one on one counseling. You really don't have to talk to anyone except your spouse at this weekend. They are giving you tools. It is up to each of you to use them.

This will be my last post not only on this but the whole thread so I will not be posting on it anymore (not because I can't defend my data and statistics but because of other reasons)

Again, a few facts on your methods vs. those of other members here (including but not only me)

1.A smaller scientific research based on facts is much more reliable than an internet survey based on nothing! More than one research, smaller or bigger, verifying the same conclusions and information, is even more reliable.

2.Two researches done by at least six researcher is more reliable than one internet survey done by only one person

3.We (not only me) brought 7 or 8 different sources, you brought only one. Seven (or 8) sources are more reliable than only one

4.Instead of one article, I brought you the (primary) sources on which it's based. Again, more reliable.

5.It was not only me that brought the relevant data but we are all wrong and only you are correct. You do not address, bring any further data to refute or any other relevant data that will prove otherwise

6.I alone brought you 6 or 7 different sources and told you WHERE to look. You dismissed the information and searched for the information that YOU wanted to find – well that says it's all (look below I brought you even more sources to verify it)!

7.We were posting academic researches you haven't brought even one

8. Bringing different sources (like those two more studies: "only a small percentage of couples who experience infidelity can save their marriage after an affair" (Charny & Parnass, 1995; Hansen, 1987) and "90% of all divorces involve infidelity - the National Science Foundation") is not repeating but cross checking and verifying the information. That's how intelligence work. Not by bringing only one source.

9. You started by pointing out there's no researches, only surveys. Once proven wrong and confronted with the reality that there's indeed a research, even more than one, on this topic, you've changed the discussion and tried to escape it by simply pointing to something different (namely that ALL of the researches and information is questionable and not usable!!!!!!!!!!). You never address what's brought but always change the discussion to something different.

In the bottom line

1.Given the methods above, it shows me that you are not about to hear, to learn, to consider new information or even just to discuss it. You are about to propagate a certain view and nothing will change that.

2.In this situation it is irrelevant how much more data I or others will bring. As I said only you are right and everyone else is wrong.

3.There is nothing bad about wanting to propagate a certain view. So, I'll leave it at that.

4.With such methods the discussion has become useless.

5.In the bottom line the most reliable data (although further research is needed as I stated above) points to the very simple fact that probably not only most men but also most women won't forgive infidelity. Men on average forgive less than women! So, again most men won't forgive.

6.Yes, it is important to the audience and readers here. I am sure they'll be able to see through your methods, conduct a further independent research on the topic and get at the bottom of the truth

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:07 AM, August 22nd (Monday)]

Needed to take a little break from this. I have reread the thread, and amazed at the responses I have gotten here. I do confess that I skipped over most of the statical discussion.

1985, you post really hit home and my wife and I spent a long time in discussion, using your post as a starting point. It was really good as we haven't talked about it much at all over the past few years and to be frank, most of the discussions prior to that could have been taking place in Gitmo, minus the physical part.

Maybe the time, maybe the IC, but I just decided to not interrogate but try to talk. It was very good. She opened up a lot. Finally ended the last piece of TT and confessed it did happen in our bed, but I knew that anyway. The PI caught them not in the act, but her in some lingerie, and him in his shorts in the bedroom. She said that he was escalating everything and wanted to do it in the bedroom and it happened a few times. She said she knew how wrong it was but did it anyway.

She also said the physical acts were escalating and he was touching her in front of the other workers. She normally would get together with him after the other guys left, but right before she got caught, he convinced here to do oral on him in a room right next to where everyone else was working. It was probably a set up by him, cause when they came out most of the guys were looking at her with a grin and she was sure they knew what happened. The good news (if any) was that one of the guys who saw was a devout Christian and that was the last straw fro him and he contacted me. She of course was sobbing the whole time she was telling me this.

She describes the whole 3 weeks as an out of body experience. She said she vowed after each time that would be the last, but then she went back anyway. Even after the oral room situation she went back until I finally caught her. She said she did feel very guilty, but like I have said in previous posts, she was as happy as I have ever seen her. She also was saying that she wanted out, but just didn't see anyway to get out. I still call bullshit on this. I would be interested in hearing from any remorseful WS if they are allowed to post here if they felt the same thing.

So that leaves me at the same place with probably a little more sympathy and understanding, but my ledger though softened is still banging in my head.

I have taken divorce and formal separation off the table for now, but I still plan to separate as scheduled. I am lucky that I am going to a seasonal property we own. I just pack a bag and drive down. It is totally furnished. If I miss her and decide after a few months she just gets on a plane and comes down. If not I just stay by myself. I don't have to do much.

I do plan on dating but not getting into any heavy relationships. Maybe that is the wrong thing, but I feel It is something I need to do.

Feel bad for her. She was crying and again talking about all the things we were supposed to do in our life going forward and how she ruined that. There was nothing I could say cause she did.

all of this crap for a few minutes of pleasure. Ugh.

WWTL, just be honest with the women you date. Let them know that you are separated, but not divorcing.

I would be interested in hearing from any remorseful WS if they are allowed to post here if they felt the same thing.

WW here and I've been following your story for awhile. I had an online EA that went on for 2.5 years. Did I want out? Yes. Was I happy during my A? Yes.

I don't know how long it took months maybe but at some point I began to get annoyed with the demands the OM put on me. I remember being sick and he continued to burn up my phone. I was out shopping and again kept burning up my phone. I was doing all the giving and getting little in return. Several times I tried to end it and he'd lure me back in by love bombing. I think men have a hard time understanding how predators work. Not making excuses just explaining. I used to be great prey and the OM knew that. I was handpicked by a skilled narcissist.

What made me great prey was neediness, neglect at home, lack of boundaries, loneliness, no friends, no family, I was ripe for the picking.

What they did was pretty disgusting , the other workers knowing about it didn't help.

It's really sad to know that the POSOM got away with it scot–free . His wife (you mentioned that he had a wife?) doesn't know and he got to keep his job .

Let's just hope he's not doing this to another family.

Also you should be totally honest to whoever you're going to date when you tell them about your situation.

Good thing you didn't catch any STD.

I admit it, Spock. I'm triggering.

This argument is about your repeated assertions that most BHes divorce. I say we simply don't have enough of the right data to know what percentage of BHes D.

In most things, there are lots of shades of grey. WRT the question of percentage of BHes who D, there's one right answer - we just don't know what proportion of BHes D.

Actually, I'm really disappointed in you. I'm interested in infidelity statistics, and I was hoping you'd found some good stuff that I haven't. And I guarantee that I'm interested in adjusting my beliefs to data, and not data to my beliefs.

You brought ONE source that other people can find. You've attributed some numbers to 'katie crown', 'holmes', the NYT and the NYP. How do you expect anyone to find what you're referring to based on those pieces of information? A elementary school teacher wouldn't accept those as 'sources', and neither do I.

You base at least some of your belief on a sample of FIVE couples who answered a newspaper ad to join a study.

Four of those 5 couples (with 'secret infidelity') D'd, BUT the article doesn't tell us whether the H or the W cheated, and it doesn't tell us who initiated the D - but you have told yourself and your readers that the 4 men were BHes and they initiated the D.

You're not thinking about this, Spock, and in not thinking, you're damaging yourself and very possibly the people you influence. Personally, I don't think a person can heal, or be honest with others, unless he's honest with himself, and I'm disappointed to read that from a guy who obviously aspires to good thinking.

I do plan on being upfront with anyone I date. In fact I am pretty sure I never want to be married or in this kind of relationship ever again.

Grace Ann, thank you for your post. My point to her also is she was happy with what was going on. Who knows where it would have ended as he was escalating. He was telling her not to have sex with me anymore as she was his. She did cut it back as she tried, though unsuccessfully to not go doubles if you know what I mean. I asked her what if he wanted to take pictures, or do a threesome. She said she would have never done that. I said how can you say that? What if I asked you a year before if you would sleep with someone else in our bed. She then said i guess i dont know what I would have done.

Grace Ann, at least you were unfulfilled. I am not saying we were perfect, but we were in a pretty good spot. We had gotten through the teenage years with 2 daughters which had some rough spots, but we had so much to look forward to. She was not ripe. That makes it way worse for me.

Well, that answers the question about remorse and if she really was a model wayward in R. TT to that degree is still selfish. Selfish and remorse do not mix. I am so sorry after all this time that the two of you were in false recovery. No wonder you had issues reconciling. You never had the truth. She never owned it. That is a lot of information to with-hold and further to deny for such a long period of time. Do not let her make you feel guilty one bit for the separation. She has proven again that she can't be trusted right now. She hasn't earned what she is so angry about. She would have been perfectly content to let you sleep in the same bed she had sex in with another man just because the headboard matched. That is really ruthless and shallow. I am sorry she is so upset. Like you stated. She did this to herself. With the affair and with the TT. When my husband TT with me like that after 2yrs it set me back to DDay1. Manipulation after DDay is just the worse. That shows how little she respects you when compared to herself. She needs to do a lot of work on herself before she is safe to be anyone's spouse again.

Sisoon,

I promised above not to post anymore on this thread which I am going to do anyway but this is an exception because I want apologize. A BH is the last person on earth that I want to hurt. I should have seen where it could lead and avoid the whole discussion on the statistics. I am really sorry that you're triggering. I hope you can accept my apology because I really feel bad about it. Well, I can see now that even if I thought I was right it was still better for me to shut my mouth. I can see now that no matter how much I think I'm right (and I still believe my data is correct and have much more of it) it was not compassionated for me to continue with this discussion. I should have known it could lead exactly to that outcome. Again, I'm sorry for triggering you. Maybe, you won't believe me but I'm really and truly sorry. Well, knowing that I caused it does not make me now feel any better even I still believe that I was right and correct. I'm sorry again.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:09 PM, August 22nd (Monday)]

She said she did feel very guilty, but like I have said in previous posts, she was as happy as I have ever seen her. She also was saying that she wanted out, but just didn't see anyway to get out. I still call bullshit on this. I would be interested in hearing from any remorseful WS if they are allowed to post here if they felt the same thing.

I don't know if it is true of your wife, but seeming happy, and feeling guilt aren't mutually exclusive. Projecting lightness and happiness is a way some deal with the feelings of guilt, or other emotions. With some it becomes almost manic behavior. It's not a real happiness just a means of coping, and hiding from both the person whom they have harmed, and from themselves.

[This message edited by Veub at 12:34 PM, August 22nd (Monday)]