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Thank you, Candyman. I appreciate your honesty.

No. You don't demand sexual acts from people. You can ask and maybe if they refuse and you know they gave it to someone else, that might be a deal breaker. But you don't demand anything.

In my case, after Dday, a whole new world opened up with what she would do in bed (everything and anything). I am not sure what this is about. Either she is still lying and gave these things to OM and now feels guilty or is just trying to be the ultimate lover to win me back. It's been nice but it's not enough.

End of the day. Respect people's wishes with sex. If you can't live with their wishes for whatever reason then leave. I would hate to have a sex slave as a condition of R. That is awful.

[This message edited by Lawyerman at 6:35 PM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

Xhz,

You have a pm.

Xhz, you're fortune telling days are numbered!!! I will not tolerate others applying predictability charts to my behavior!! (Unless giving odds for purposes of gambling.)

This is an outrage and a scandal!

I demand redress in form of fart joke, or there will be.... consequences. Smelly consequences.

You can ask and maybe if they refuse and you know they gave it to someone else, that might be a deal breaker. But you don't demand anything.

This is such a fine line. How exactly do you do this, ask for, but not demand, after an A? Because saying "WW, I'd like to have anal sex with you like the AP did" has the implied threat "or I will D your cheating a**" attached to it. You don't need to say it, any WS knows that a lot of conditions of R are laid out there with "or I will D your cheating a**" as the unsaid thing at the end.

That's why, IMHO, any WS in this situation needs to just offer it up (whatever it is, more affection, romance, love letters, flowers, jewelry, or yes, anal sex) BEFORE the BS gets to the point of saying it. Once it's said, no matter how nicely/politely/lovingly it still carries the "or I will D you" at the end to any WS with a modicum of intelligence. They know what's at stake.

Here's the thing I keep thinking about.

I think if we replace sex with romance, at least, for me it puts the feelings in perspective, regardless of how you think it best to resolve those feelings. And, I think, we need to recognize those feelings are true, real and hard to overcome. I think in order to empathize, perhaps it helps to put the matter in an example that we BW's might better identify.

For example, if I had always wanted my husband to make a specific romantic gesture and he never did, but then I found out he did so for an AP, how would I feel about that? How would I feel about having to ask him to do it for me? How would I feel if, even after asking, it was clear he just wasn't into doing such a gesture? I would want him to want to give me that romantic gesture and more, not because I asked but because it was his idea. I don't want the gesture because he is acquiescing to my demand, I want the gesture as an act of love from his own mind, his own heart. And, knowing that such an act was not possible for him with me, on his own accord, would be devastating. Even with all of his protestations that he only did the act for the AP to get what he wanted from AP, the fact would remain that he did it on his own accord, he did it for the AP before he did it for me, and it was still something he hesitated to do for me.

Now, let's say he does do it for me, on his own accord, without me asking. The fact is he did it for the AP first. That pain will never go away. So, you can have the argument all you want about what to do about it. But, it really misses the point about the underlying feelings that are very hard to resolve whether the wayward spouse is willing and wanting to do the act in question or not. These feelings are horrible feelings. I don't think it is fair to deny that fact. But, knowing your wayward wants to help you through those feelings, is a step in the right direction. And, that has to be the starting point in order to truly work through those feelings.

This is why, in regards to the sexual acts, I think talking through this as a couple with a specialist (sex therapist) is a great first step because it shows that the wayward is taking these feelings seriously. and that, in and of itself, would speak volumes to the betrayed.

In the meantime, perhaps the couple can try some intimate board games for married couples to discover each other in new ways and build intimacy and communication.

I have one thing I want to say on this subject. If a WW refuses to do something sexually with her BS that they WILLING did with their AP and uses the excuse that it is degrading and it's her body and therefore her choice not to do these acts. Then I would have to inform her that this is my body and therefore I have as much right to use my body, doing the acts with someone else, as she did doing them with her AP. If my wife did something with the AP but refused me the same, then she has just informed me that she thought more of her AP than she does of me. Divorce time. Never live with someone that loves and does for someone else more than the person they are married to. I fully believe, that if a spouse ask for something that the wayward willing gave to the AP, it is a test by the betrayed to see just who is more important in the mind of the wayward. I do wish you well.

This ^^^^^^^^ exactly!! Thank you!

anoldlion - in other words.."if you lay in the gutter with OM you better lie there with me."

cause thats what most women would think. what they did with OM was disgusting, if they're remorseful. so you're asking them to do something sexual that repels them with you as payment.

what a WS has done with their AP has nothing to do with love. it has everything to do with not loving themselves. why do some BS not get that?

cause thats what most women would think. what they did with OM was disgusting, if they're remorseful. so you're asking them to do something sexual that repels them with you as payment.

what a WS has done with their AP has nothing to do with love. it has everything to do with not loving themselves. why do some BS not get that?

I would encourage them to see a sex-positive therapist. And I don't say that in jest; nothing that's discussed in these threads is beyond "normal" sexual behavior. Yes, if you demanded your wife sleep with a farm animal while you watched like she did with the OM, I get it, and I'm right there with you, most people would think that was degrading and wrong. Oral sex? Anal sex? Just having more sex? That's what 99% of these threads are about, and those things simply aren't outside the normal desires of many people.

Let's turn it around for a minute. Imagine a woman's husband has an A, filled with "romance". Picks the AP up in a horse drawn carriage, then off to the best place in town to eat. Flowers, chocolate, and an expensive romantic hotel. Something the W has always wanted, the dressed up fancy dinner with a huge heap of romance and excitement. A night away from the kids for the 2 of them. In fact, she asked for it dozens of times throughout the relationship, the exact thing the H denied her and then did with the AP.

Now, H is back in the house and wife says "I'd like to go out on the carriage and have a nice dinner with you". Well.. You know hunny, I feel a little silly riding around on the carriage and having people look at us. Those expensive places to eat are all overpriced. And I don't like wearing my suit, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Flowers are silly, you know they die in a few days anyway. How about we just sit at home and watch Friends on TV?

Can you see the light/life come out of that BW's eyes? Because I can. It's the same light that came out of mine. Maybe what the H says is entirely true (it probably is, I think a lot of men feel exactly that way). But, really? Some compassion.. Some remorse? Some level of care for the other person and what they want/need from the relationship, especially after what you did? If a man was stupid enough to come on here and tell a story like that, I'd be first in line with the pitchfork, telling him to hire a helicopter to fly over the city after the horse ride and try to make it even more special for his BW. And I suspect that many of the posters here would join me.

No, there's no justice to be had in an A. But if we chalk everything up to that; well.. Why not just let the WS continue the A? I mean, no justice right? Why not let them have multiple APs? No justice. Why impose any restrictions on them? No, you'll never get "even" but, there are a LOT of things that the WS can do to try to help the BS heal, and this is a huge one for some BS's (including me). In fact, it's one of the only ones that actually matters to me, go NC, give me the truth, and this are the only real conditions that were absolute must haves for R (for me personally). No, you won't find justice here anymore than you find justice putting a murderer in jail for 25 years for killing your family member. But we TRY to establish a balance in our legal system, we try to even the scales so that the victims are in some way made whole. If we just throw up our hands and say there's no justice to be had? That's now how we work as people, it's just not, throughout history, we've always had a sense that "hurt me, and if you want to stay in my life, make it up to me". We learn that as children, apologize and give them the dessert from your lunch box; that's what my parents would have told me if I hurt another child. Sacrifice something you value to show them your sincere.

and I'd say to that rideout, if my husband MADE me do something like this to stay with him as a WS, no, it was disgusting with him and I don't want to do anything disgusting with you. I'd be willing to leave so I didn't have to make any payment with my body.

it's a little bit different having your body violated then buying flowers.

and I'd say to that rideout, if my husband MADE me do something like this to stay with him as a WS, no, it was disgusting with him and I don't want to do anything disgusting with you. I'd be willing to leave so I didn't have to make any payment with my body.

it's a little bit different having your body violated then buying flowers.

Which is fine. Just like a WH can say "Well, I worked all day on the roof of a house baking in the sun and abusing my body for this money, I'm not wasting it buying flowers for you like I did the AP". And that's his choice, just like it's yours to engage in sexual acts with the AP that you deny your H (not you personally, in general). But neither of those is at all likely to lead to R. Sure, you can go down that road (either the man or woman in the above hypothetical) but you need to expect to be divorced if you do. And if that's what you want, or you accept that as the likely outcome, then, so be it. Just don't expect your BS to accept it or stick around; in my eyes, saying either of those things is just a small step from "Yes, I'm having an A, and I'd like to keep seeing her for sex and stay married to you". Sure, you can do that. But any woman with any self respect who's not into a poly/swinging lifestyle is going to D a man saying that so fast his head will spin. As she should, IMHO.

If this thread is 'beating a dead horse', then so is 99% of all the threads here. As new people come in, or situations arise or people want advice... it's all been posted before. So we can either just tell people to search for such threads or treat the OP's as originals and post accordingly if we so choose.

Now, if the OP has been posting this same thread repeatedly, then I get it.

"but you need to expect to be divorced if you do."

yes, because I refuse to pay the amend with my body.

I had stayed away because I have written in the similar threads numerous times and I feel like I have said my piece on it repeatedly. But, XHZ, I can't disappoint you! LOL. Just kidding.

I will post this just to reiterate since like BPguy said, new people come on and they want answers.

As a WW, I had very few sexual encounters, and AP's menu was way more limited than H's. Doesn't make it better by any means, and I am not minimizing, rather just providing context. I will add that H and I have always had great/frequent sex.

Healing for my H, and I would assume many, most, if not all BH's has some parts not sexual, but some parts definitely sexual. He, like many men, translates sex, desire, excitement about him as an expression of love. I recognize that, and I have changed some of my behaviors. I initiate more. I am more verbal about how much I want him, how sexy I find him, etc. And, this is not done for manipulation, this is done because it's true. I think if it weren't it would be impossible to maintain, and then it would be false R. I can recognize why the men here say that if you can't do that, R is going to be harder.

I think in some cases this would be true for some of the females on this board as well. I have noted several who say, they enjoy sex, that their sex life prior to A was lacking, and that they need to see their husbands desire them.

We talk about emasculation for the guys, and also needing a word for the women. How else is sexual emasculation going to be dealt with? There isn't an answer for it. You can't fix it with words. You can't fix it with being transparent. You can't fix it with flowers, candy, poetry, dates, etc. It's broken in a specific category, sexual healing is the only answer. I don't think it's a bad requirement of R - it's a realistic one. But, one that I also don't think has to be verbalized. Either he/she loves you and wants you and desires you, and has the empathy to understand what you need and what was broken or they don't. It's very clear to me the part I have in healing that and my husband has yet to verbalize it in the way it's often done here.

So, I don't think coercion/force is ever going to fix it anyway. You as a man (or woman for that matter) will recognize you took it rather than having it lavished upon you and that's not going to fix it either. You are just going to feel worse, she is going to be resentful, and if this is your scenario I am just not sure what you are hoping will fix this.

That's my two cents.

Signed,

The woman who groped her husband this morning before work and told him how much she loves his...um package...and doesn't feel demeaned in the least because I do love it. Maybe I should go home for lunch?

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:48 AM, September 27th (Thursday)]

sewardak, I understand what you are saying but please also understand that as a BS you are approaching this argument with righteous outrage. However the people whom we are asking this from are WW's who have just got done doing the things we want to experience with SOMEONE ELSE!!!

Do you not think that if you approached this from the viewpoint of having been a cheater that your viewpoint might be different? I mean if your Righteous Indignation was going to cost you your loving husband, 50% of the time with your kids, 1/2 of your retirement and wind up with the entire world know what you did and with who and turn possible reconciliation into a very adversarial divorce, that you might have a little more "open" minded outlook on this or is this important enough to throw everything into the toilet and flush?? I mean then you would not have ANY Righteous Indignation just pain (or not)?

I mean really look at this. This ONLY came about because of what YOU did with SOMEONE ELSE! YOU are the total reason for ALL the destruction to the people that you supposedly love and now YOU are making demands for recovery?? How does that actually work?? It's not like you didn't do these same things with some other asshole but THAT WAS OK WITH YOU just NOT the person you love??

I realize that in the last paragraph I was asking as if YOU had cheated just to have you approach this from THAT viewpoint. I have noticed on here (a lot of posts) that WW's very rarely post on these threads and almost ALL of the posts with your viewpoint are from BW's who really can not seem to understand the problem. You and most BW's have always posted from the aforementioned Righteous Indignation and I don't think that you actually take the time and depth of though that might give a different answer.

I am not advocating anything like this in a "Normal" relationship but after cheating "Normal" is so far off the screen that for all practical purposes it doesn't exist.

I am 69 years old and have never pressured anybody to do anything they weren't enthusiastic about BUT in this particular case yes it would not be something asked for lightly but something I would DEMAND! If it doesn't happen then WW3 (that instance WW is World war) is on. I realize that this is on me but it would be non-negotiable for any hope of recovery.

You talk about disrespecting you and your autonomy but isn't an affair showing MASSIVE DISRESPECT TO YOU??? I know you are a BS and know how the disrespect feels so think about how it would feel at that point as a male BS and that ANY DEMANDS put on the recovery would probably kill it.

Just think about it today and see.

This is not meant to trigger any women on here that have been mistreated and victimized in their lives! This is NOT a "normal" situation and demanding sex or any particular variation or "kink" in ANY normal situation is just not right!!! Sex is meant as a pleasure and to being loving with someone. Force is never OK in ANY situation. Demands are horrible too but if it is there why call it as "just ask" with no consequences when there WILL BE consequences? Is that not a "demand" no matter what you call it?? Or does a "condition for reconciliation just sound better?

Sorry I seem to be rambling so I will end now.

JMO YMMV

candy, i have thought about that. ive been a BS for 5 years. lots of time to think. i absolutely know the affair disrespected the BS/me. he also gravely disrespected himself.

but demanding more disrespect to make things equal? just no. any demands are not the same as sexual demands.

[This message edited by sewardak at 9:47 AM, September 27th (Thursday)]

You and most BW's have always posted from the aforementioned Righteous Indignation and I don't think that you actually take the time and depth of though that might give a different answer.

Nope. I'm ten years out and have thought about it. Bodily autonomy is a level up from other "demands". Not the same. Not sure men in general can understand this unless they have been penetrated against their will.

(Curious, isn't it though, that rape is what men fear most about going to prison? So on SOME level they understand...)

I don't think anyone (well maybe one person) is saying your demand, giving notice, being a deal breaker if she doesn't agree, is abuse.

What the women are saying in this thread (and ABSOFUCKINGLUTLELY what LWMD was saying in the other thread) was referring to the previous threads where BH were practically bragging about forcing their WW to do those things. Didn't care if she was crying or didn't want to. Used the WW fear of divorce or whatever to get what they wanted in that moment. That IS Abuse. And as someone said, the death of any real M. And very triggering to us sexual abuse survivors, whether or not they are the BW or the WW. I think it might be you, Candyman, who might be the one who could use taking some time and thought about the TWO different things being said here. Seems to me almost no one is saying you are wrong but you are still arguing your point.

just no. any demands are not the same as sexual demands.

But other people feel very differently about it. No sexual demand my wife could come up with would be "disrespecting myself" as long as it was just the 2 of us. Want to strap one on and have a go at me? Well, not necessarily my cup of tea, but if it was something I'd done with the AP and something she wanted to try.. Absolutely.

i absolutely know the affair disrespected the BS/me. he also gravely disrespected himself.

but demanding more disrespect to make things equal? just no.

But, if I were the WS, asking me for a post-nup? I can't think of anything more disrespectful. Am I just a wallet to you? The only way you want me to make this up to you is financially? How is this not just a punishment? A financial consequence would be far more emotionally difficult for me to accept and yet, and I'd agree, it's a reasonable thing to do following an A.

i absolutely know the affair disrespected the BS/me. he also gravely disrespected himself.

but demanding more disrespect to make things equal? just no.

It's not demanding disrespect anymore than "I need to feel financially secure to continue this marriage, sign here" is. And, the biggest thing, it's not to "make things equal". There is no "equal" here. It's to show the BS that they matter to you in the way that matters to them. Financial, sexual, emotional.. All of them are valid (in my eyes) ways for a BS to want to be showed that they do matter MORE than the AP did. But "demanding disrespect" has nothing to do with it, at least not for me. Sometimes when we have these discussions I scratch my head, am I the only one who see sex as a loving, caring and intimate thing? Are most people really thinking "is trying to hurt me" during sex? These conversations make me very sad and hopeless in a lot of ways because the viewpoints are just so different.

What the women are saying in this thread (and ABSOFUCKINGLUTLELY what LWMD was saying in the other thread) was referring to the previous threads where BH were practically bragging about forcing their WW to do those things. Didn't care if she was crying or didn't want to. Used the WW fear of divorce or whatever to get what they wanted in that moment. That IS Abuse. And as someone said, the death of any real M. And very triggering to us sexual abuse survivors, whether or not they are the BW or the WW. I think it might be you, Candyman, who might be the one who could use taking some time and thought about the TWO different things being said here. Seems to me almost no one is saying you are wrong but you are still arguing your point.

I don't think anyone is arguing that what that poster did (including himself) wasn't mentally abusive. But that's ONE poster in a sea of people with this issue who took it too far that we all seem to focus on. No, you shouldn't tell your wife to "blow you or walk home" at the grocery store. But you have every right, in my eyes, to say calmly, at home, "I want the level/intensity/acts/etc the OM got or I'm leaving". In fact, you shouldn't even have to say it, that should be plainly obvious to any WS, at least, IMHO.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:07 AM, September 27th (Thursday)]

"These conversations make me very sad and hopeless in a lot of ways because the viewpoints are just so different.

agreed.