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DragnHeart, See you Ladies are the gatekeepers and if you say no it's just NO! Yet on the other side even when we are the injured party if she says no then we are just (not) screwed. You don't really, really want something and then he gives it up to some one else why? Because if you want it YOU can get it! Just saying.

Skadu,

I do follow you now.

You are right in what you are saying.

Just to clarify I don’t say these things to my husband, it’s not even an issue in the way it’s spoken about on this board. I am just illustrating that I agree that you have to show your spouse that you love and desire them. And really you should do this even if there wasn’t an affair.

But I do understand your reaction.

anoldlion - in other words.."if you lay in the gutter with OM you better lie there with me."

cause thats what most women would think. what they did with OM was disgusting, if they're remorseful. so you're asking them to do something sexual that repels them with you as payment.

what a WS has done with their AP has nothing to do with love. it has everything to do with not loving themselves. why do some BS not get that?

If ANY WS steps outside the marriage for their own sexual needs, they blew up the marriage of their own accord. The implied "conversation" above can't take place because the old marriage is dead. WS doesn't just get to come back. They killed the marriage, they're no better than any stranger the BS might choose to be with.

SO, if ANY WS wants to convince the BS that a renewed relationship, reconciliation, is a good idea, they had better be able to compete with the world at large... when they're already a strike down, when they've already shown they can't really be trusted.

People at the start of any relationship are typically at their people-pleasing best. Because at that point, the other person really owes them nothing. So if WS wants to say "nuh-uh" to a bunch of stuff for WHATEVER reason, let's just hope you aren't outcompeted. Because BS owes WS nothing at that point.

I disagree that women are the 'gatekeepers' of sex. If anyone can be described as a 'gatekeeper', I think that the person with the lower sex drive is. The person who values sex less is.

This is not always the woman.

Thank you so much, Candyman66. You are very gracious and I appreciate that. Yep, we don't have to agree (but, I don't feel we are that far apart from each other on this subject as you think we are) but we can always listen. Thank you and I know you weren't shutting me down.

ETA: I find you to be a very caring man, Candyman66, and believe you really care about your fellow members here at SI and you speak from your heart. Even though we may have differences in how we would approach things, I know that we only want the best for each other and our fellow members, WS and BS alike.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 6:29 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

Let me take a stab at the BW side of the coin. Suppose your husband has an affair. He takes his AP to the best restaurants, to expensive venues of entertainment, buys her nice gifts, spends lots of money on her and lots of time with her, tells her how pretty she is, spends hours just talking to her, tells her how great sex is with her and how good she is at sex, and tells her how she makes him feel. Then the affair is discovered and the husband is so sorry and begs for R. But he doesn't do any of the things with his wife that he did with the AP. He don't do them because it makes him think about his affair and causes him pain. As a BW are you really and honestly going to say you do not feel neglected, feel that he thinks more of the AP than he does of you? That it just makes you feel less of everything. Can you really say, "It's okay he doesn't do these things for me because he is sorry and wants to R." Personally, I don't think so. Tell me I'm wrong. I won't believe it but you can say I'm wrong. I do wish you well.

With all due respect, you are misrepresenting the poster’s words in the first quote. Further you added details to serve your narrative but weren’t part of the poster’s thoughts.

He/she said it was disgusting. He/she didn’t say she did it as often as possible. He she didn’t mention a frequency.

You’re taking license with someone else’s words and thoughts. You can disagree without embellishments. Just my opinion.

The person I quoted was a BW. So none of it applies.

And you're minimizing affairs. Most of them that turn physical, they have sex every chance they can. It's like you're believing the minimizing that they all initially do.

My first sentence addressed the "disgusting" part. The rest is my rebuttal as a BH.

Since you guys seem to want to use dinners out or jewelry type examples let me give you one that applies to me.

WH text and emailed OW2 more in their affair time then he has OUR ENTIRE MARRIAGE.

I found this to be a major sore spot for me.

If I fucking email you dammit email me back! Why is that sooooo hard when you emailed HER non stop?!?

I spent years pleading, begging to have the same as she did from him but never got it.

What I came to realize through discussion with him is that he hated to email/text. He didn't email or text her because he enjoyed it. He did it to keep the ego kibbles coming. He did it to keep her interested, to feed her what she wanted to keep the affair alive. He romanced her. She fucked him. It was an affair of convenience. Not love. Not passion. Not authentic.

So over time we have worked on that. I prefer to communicate via email or text.to remove emotion from an otherwise heated conversation. He prefers fave to face. So I'll email or text him. Then he will come to me and I allow him to address whatever it is without interrupting or getting upset. It's been a long road and is still a work in progress but we found a way to compromise.

What I'd hope for is that a BH could, despite the pain and anger, still be capable of compassion towards their WW in looking for a way for both to move forward to build a new marriage that is satisfying for both. This applies to a BW/wh too. The world needs more compassion, not rugsweeping or anything like that mind you.

I disagree that women are the 'gatekeepers' of sex. If anyone can be described as a 'gatekeeper', I think that the person with the lower sex drive is. The person who values sex less is.

This is not always the woman.

Always? Absolutely not. Usually? Absolutely. Almost always? Yes, I'd say that's probably true too, especially in dating relationships. I don't know of a single marriage where the guy is the one "off" sex, it's always the woman. But you are right, it's whoever values sex less who's the gatekeeper, just that is typically the woman.

DragnHeart, See you Ladies are the gatekeepers and if you say no it's just NO! Yet on the other side even when we are the injured party if she says no then we are just (not) screwed. You don't really, really want something and then he gives it up to some one else why? Because if you want it YOU can get it! Just saying.

And this. Even if you don't accept that women are the gatekeepers of sex, I've never even heard of a relationship where women aren't the gatekeepers to kink. My mind might melt if I heard a woman say "My god, I just wish my husband would orgasm in my mouth so I could swallow it, he's so uptight" or "If only I could convince my husband to have anal sex with me". Nope, never heard either of them, and doubt I ever will. And this is why this conversation so neatly divides in gender lines (well, one of the reasons), women having sex/kink/acts denied to them is rare. The only one I hear of with any regularity is oral sex, men refusing to do it to their wives (and their wives really wanting it), which is why I often use that as an example, a WH does that with his AP every time and then continues to deny it to his W.

But, we'll have to agree to disagree. Because I just can't fathom women not being the gatekeepers of sex. Actually, I can fathom it, I have gay male friends, and I see what their sexual lives are like. Let me tell you, it makes the craziest porn you've ever seen look tame. Because.. No gatekeeper..

DragnHeart, See you Ladies are the gatekeepers and if you say no it's just NO! Yet on the other side even when we are the injured party if she says no then we are just (not) screwed. You don't really, really want something and then he gives it up to some one else why? Because if you want it YOU can get it! Just saying.

I recommend you read and re read the thread in OT. For many of us that is simply not truth.

I spent years pleading, begging to have the same as she did from him but never got it.

This is a great example. And all I can say, I'm consistent. I'd tell you to D his ass post haste because, if e-mails are important to you, and he was willing to send 50 a day to the OW, he sure as hell should be willing to do the same for you.

Sorry, probably not what you were trying to say or wanted to hear, but that's so callous of him.. It's an e-mail. You're obviously capable. You just won't, FOR ME.

The one part where this falls down (and does with all things that aren't sex) is that you can e-mail other people. You can get 50 page e-mails from your girlfriends if you want to. The same doesn't exist for sex, if you're H/W won't do it.. Well, your SOL, you're not doing it alone or with anyone else either.

I don't know of a single marriage where the guy is the one "off" sex, it's always the woman.

Here's one: mine.

(((((SisterMilkshake)))))

I think you're sensible. And I think what you post is helpful. You have always helped me. Especially in certain areas like women as sexual people and what it feels like to be shut down in a way specific to women. I've always appreciated that about you. And the thread you started in OT is powerful and so very necessary. Thank you for always encouraging women to have a voice.

I'm sorry for making light of that comment when it disrespected you and other members. I'm sorry for doing that, and I shouldn't have done it.

My mind might melt if I heard a woman say "My god, I just wish my husband would orgasm in my mouth so I could swallow it, he's so uptight" or "If only I could convince my husband to have anal sex with me". Nope, never heard either of them, and doubt I ever will.

Well, now you've heard of me. This is something that I wanted and tried to do with him for a long time - but respectfully. Because I wanted to please and excite him. And he was, when he decided on his own that he was down to do them with me (which he'd previously rejected doing, plus many other things he didn't want to do because he'd already done them before he met me). Ultimately he said he preferred other ways than those (anal, swallowing, etc) to enjoy each other.

So, your mind is melted now?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:02 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

My mind might melt if I heard a woman say "My god, I just wish my husband would orgasm in my mouth so I could swallow it, he's so uptight" or "If only I could convince my husband to have anal sex with me". Nope, never heard either of them, and doubt I ever will.

Obviously you and I travel in different circles.

"Tell me I'm wrong. I won't believe it but you can say I'm wrong."

so what is the point of continuing then? there seems to be strident sides in this issue. it always goes the same way. I think this way you think that way. not much else to discuss. we'll never convince the other.

Gonna have to call out RIO on that kink comment.

Maybe it's just exposure bias but I see women complain about this constantly when they're on the receiving end of a Madonna complex.

The only place straight-laces have in the bedroom are on a corset, or maybe some of those thigh high boots.

[This message edited by Skadu at 7:16 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

Well firstly I wouldn't D him over emails when that's just one part of a huge marriage and issues within it.

Also, his emails weren't from.his true, authentic self. I only want the true husband I married. Not the man who would lie through his teeth to his OW through emails to keep her interested so he kept getting laid...

Again for me it's about being authentic. I couldn't believe he was emailing me because he wanted to when he's told me he didn't want to do it in the first place.

Now this:

The one part where this falls down (and does with all things that aren't sex) is that you can e-mail other people. You can get 50 page e-mails from your girlfriends if you want to. The same doesn't exist for sex, if you're H/W won't do it.. Well, your SOL, you're not doing it alone or with anyone else either.

Ok so can we stop using examples of dinners out, flowers, jewelry etc then. Cause I can have all of those with others as well...My brother buys me dragon jewelry, my kids give me flowers and I go to dinner with friends and family when I can....

Ya I get that you want anal and blow jobs and being married and being a moral man you wish to have those things with your wife alone. So be it. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm saying that going about it as if to punish her, to one up the AP, to regain a sense of manhood to me only serves to in fact create a hostile environment instead of a new authentic marriage based in love, trust(with time and effort on the Was part) and mutual desires.

All of you are correct, if a WS isn't willing to work hard and damn hard to build on a new foundation then a future, married together is pointless. But it all starts with communication and work on both parts.

To SisterMilkshake and ALL the ladies who posted on the original thread and all the ladies in the world that have had to put up with this horrendous behavior from men; I am so sorry that those horrible things were done to you. I don't think I have ever tried to do anything like that ever!!! I ALWAYS knew I'd get caught and be totally embarrassed and humiliated (raised with plenty of catholic guilt!). Mostly because I was raised to show and HAVE respect for women!!! To this day (i'm 69) my mother would rise from her grave and and tear me a new body part!!!

I really love women, I don't understand them AT ALL though. Women are soft warm wonderful and exciting creatures (until they are not - hard lesson learned) If I am with a woman she makes me want to be everything that I can be and brings out the best in me.

For somebody to intentionally harm one of them causes me great pain and a severe desire to help them and protect them (not always appreciated).

So to the women who have been hurt by unwanted advances from men just know that my voice and and my actions are always with you.

Thanks Candyman.

Thank you candy! That was awesome.