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Coco- I don’t think that’s a price to pay for R. I think it’s a benefit of R. The things you are talking about leads to healthy personal fulfillment. Just another way of looking at it. I desire to be that person that gives h and I the ability to have a deeper intimacy. I look at it as more a removal of the barriers I held from fully experiencing love. All consequences are not negative? Just a different perspective. By reconciling with your husband he was given a rich opportunity to grow. Had you divorced, the opportunity would have been different and even possibly thrown away.

Hikingout, I just posted my 5 year update so my mind is a bit off track at the moment, but let me see if I can clarify what I wrote:

It's one thing to stick out R with someone who cheated "for the kids" but quite another to do so without that "excuse". A form of cognitive dissonance perhaps. We feel less psychological conflict when we do something that makes us uneasy and have an external excuse to blame it on, as in using the kids as our reason to stay and work it out. With that gone, we lose our excuse and have to justify why now to stay. For some, maybe they just can't find a good enough reason.

I was trying to explain a mechanism why someone would "suddenly" decide to leave a M after R once the children are out of the picture. To offer a suggestion for what may prompt that decision. For some BS, once the "excuse" of the the kids is removed, they have nothing to fall back on. They now have to accept this as their choice -- and for some it may seem like a weakness to stay with someone who cheated on you if there's no longer a "reason" to do so.

But like your BS, I don't have children at home any longer and it's just my H and I. I don't have an excuse to stay other than because I choose to. And maybe for some that is the difficult dilemma -- how can someone CHOOSE to stay with someone who betrayed them in such a horrific way? That takes some comfort within yourself to be able to look someone else in the eyes and say, "Yes, I know what she/he did, but I believe they are remorseful and are working to change for the better, and I'm willing to give her/him that chance. And yes, BTW, I still love her/him" A lot of people who have not walked in our shoes will struggle with that and likely argue that we're idiots for staying. Again, one needs to feel secure enough in their own mind to be able to accept that some people will think they are an idiot for staying

Does that get at what you were asking? If your H is choosing to stay and work on your M, I would argue it must be that at least in part, he believes you are working to change, that he still loves you, and he has a belief that staying and working is the better choice than bailing. I think as long as our reasons for staying come from a place of strength, we are on the right path.

[This message edited by psychmom at 9:17 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

Psychmom, I feel a ton of shame for staying with my cheater. Its something I struggle with so very much. No kids at home. Just really my choice. Is this where you're going?

Yes you answered what I was asking. and it aligns with what I understand if our situation. I somewhat misunderstood your post to begin with. I guess without the typical reasons I assumed what you just said - it has to be a choice that stands on its own. But due to the misunderstanding I thought there was some alternate “reasoning” that you may have had to deal with the dissonance. Thanks for the clarification. There is a lot of really good insight on this thread, I really have gotten a lot out of it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:24 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

And, maybe we shouldn't chastise the BS who can't be honest with their WS....

For me, it's more a desire to open up the possibility of the BS doing what's best for himself.

I think 'staying for the kids' without D or R is sometimes (often? very often?) chosen out of fear and conflict avoidance. That leads to years of increasing resentment. That's not a good model for the kids.

True, D frees the WS to go off the rails, but it also frees the BS to be a good parent. Staying together out of fear or conflict avoidance or co-dependence ... that seems beyond awful to live with.

It think the best thing the BS can do is to face his fears. That allows him to think clearly and to make the best decisions for himself.

My sense is that the SIers who stay for their kids have, in fact, faced their fears at least to some extent.

Folks who complain about their Ms, folks who talk about being able to D when their kids are out of the house, folks who D out of the blue after the kids left ... they sound to me like people who probably haven't seen the positive possibilities that are open to them.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:02 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

HO, I was thinking of the CS who thinks he can get by with the bare minimum needed to appease the BP and eventually quit. The CS who thinks X # of years have gone by and the BS is still there so all is good and goes back to being an ass, and is then blindsided that they are being divorced. If the CS wants to prevent that, he needs to continue to work on himself forever. Am I making sense?

IOW, if my fch starts to slide back into those unhealthy pre-A behaviors that led to him cheating, I'm not sticking around to see how far it goes.

Thought of something else. The man I married is not who he really is. I feel like I was tricked, duped. He pretended to be something he wasn't so that I would marry him. I chose to marry him because he had certain characteristics that I valued. I didn't know those characteristics were part of an unhealthy way of thinking and being. That isn't because of he cheated. His cheating was a symptom of that unhealthiness.

Now, he is doing the work needed to become his authentic self. That is good for him. I'm glad he's doing it. It may not be good for us. We had an interesting talk awhile ago during which he said that maybe I was meant to enter his life so he could learn his lesson. Again, that's nice for him, but I don't appreciate being the sacrificial lamb.

So, he's becoming a different person from whom I thought I married. I don't know if I do, or will, like this new person. He may not be the type of person that I want to spend my life with. His journey has just begun, so I don't know yet.

Maybe that's what people mean when they talk about building a new M. I never quite understood that. I do understand what people mean when they say they don't want the old M. I think maybe I do. I want the M we had before my fch let resentments lead him down a dark path. I know I can't have that back. I don't know if the new one will be good enough.

But, sisoon, you're assuming the relationship is strained, and full of conflict. And that is not always the case.

I am not staying for the kids. I love him. He loves me. But, once the kids have grown, I might just decide I can no longer be with a man who betrayed me so deeply. Or, maybe I will be glad I stayed. I will see how I feel in a few more years.

I do think telling a BS they are basically a crappy person,because it will take years to line those ducks up, or because they can not allow themselves to be completely vulnerable to a person who shattered their soul, is unfair. Not everyone has a model WS.

Hellfire - I get your persepctive.

I'm coming at it from a different angle:

maybe we shouldn't chastise the BS who can't be honest with their WS...

.

BS deserve to be in a relationship where they can confide in and tell the truth to their spouse. After everything they've been through, they deserve this. i don't think it was quite chastising, I think its pointing out the fact that manipulation is simply not good for a marriage OR a person.

[This message edited by sewardak at 7:17 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

Coco - I totally get that. My h would also be fine

In one Second flat. I am positive. I guess what I was responding to was the way the post read it sounded like being a better spouse and keeping in the toes were a punishment. So I was just saying there are lots of consequences for ws but some of them are positive if they can just see that.. And while I was responding to your post I was more saying it for everyone. Ws read a lot of these posts even when they aren’t responding, for example. But I do understand your perspective 100 percent. The work a ws does is a benefit to that ws and I agree it may or may not save the marriage. It may benefit a bs in coparenting or other things but for some that might be the extent.

i don't think it was quite chastising

It came across to me as chastising. Sometimes people have to lie or deceive to protect themselves until they can figure put what else to do.

I am honest with my fch. He knows what I think about R, our M, and D. He's the one who is dishonest. Shoot, for all I know, he's only staying for the kids. He would be pretty much out of their lives if we divorced. His job is not conducive to having custody of the children. Also, wrt my last post, he could decide 10 years from now that he doesn't like me and wants a D. There are no guarantees.

ETA because I'm always forgetting stuff.

HO, I agree that doing the work of R is a positive thing. I say that the CP who does the work for herself, and not just to save the marriage, is the one who really gets it. That's the remorseful CP who will become a safe partner regardless of whether or not the M survives.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 8:51 AM, September 14th (Saturday)]

Coco we’ll just have to agree to disagree I guess.

But, sisoon, you're assuming the relationship is strained, and full of conflict. And that is not always the case.

I expect a non-strained, not-fully-R'ed relationship comes about only when the BS makes what I've been calling a mindful choice.

If a BS says to himself that he will choose and be satisfied with a particular path, and his heart, head, and gut are aligned on that choice, I think there's a high probability of success.

I do think telling a BS they are basically a crappy person,because it will take years to line those ducks up, or because they can not allow themselves to be completely vulnerable to a person who shattered their soul, is unfair. Not everyone has a model WS.

I haven't read a lot of that. I do read and make comments about the BS being responsible for his resentments and for staying in a bad M 'for the kids,' but again, I think tose comments are aimed at opening up possibilities more than chastising the BS.

But if a BS feels chastised, obviously the positive message didn't get communicated effectively.

Now, he is doing the work needed to become his authentic self. That is good for him. I'm glad he's doing it. It may not be good for us.

I understand. In our early post-d-day days I often thought that we'd both get a whole lot more authentic, but that might makes us realize we weren't a good fit.

What helped keep me going was that splitting mindfully, if we really were poorly matched, was an OK outcome.

Numb&dumb had a really great point here...

I think you need to look at the "empty nest syndrome" by itself before attributing that solely to infidelity.

Empty nest is a thing all on its own that some marriages don't survive. For a lot of people, it hits just about the same time as menopause, and for me... at the same time as infidelity. Any one of those three things will bring stress to the marriage because they affect our sense of identity and trigger grief and/or loss of emotional intimacy in the primary relationship.

We still love our children when they've grown past the point of neediness. But when I look at pictures of them in infancy or early childhood, those little cherubs are GONE, never to return. We miss them, we grieve for the loss even while that child is right in front of us. It's part of life, but it's a hard part of life, and we have to recreate ourselves. Unless the primary relationship is satisfying, the marriage is unlikely to withstand the strain.

So, I don't think it's all just about the BS holding a grudge. I think, in some cases, life continues to happen and that when other stessers come along, recovery will be tested... and sometimes found to be insufficient.

I have stayed for years, several in ihs, "for the kids," supposedly. I know that I fear being lonely, broke, leaving an H who is working to become a healthy partner and then regretting it, etc. It's the same stuff I read over and over here, the same fears. My "only doing it for the kids" is a pretty big lie that feels honorable and selfless since my "I'm scared of this and that" feels unhealthy. So I don't trust the reasons people give for what they do because I wrestle with accepting truths about myself, too. We all struggle to fully own and share the weakest and most dysfunctional parts of ourselves, and that absolutely includes both WS and BS, along with every other human being. It's hard to admit our vulnerabilities, even to ourselves. I know that I harp on that here a lot.

I think Sisoon is spot on in suggesting that "staying for the kids" is actually a fairly dysfunctional choice because it does not acknowledge that disliking your spouse (otherwise you'd be in R) and remaining an outward couple creates resentment. It does! I have lived it! It's impossible not to have many moments of grief, loss, the What Ifs--and all of that builds an anger inside. You can't fix it, and you can't move on. It is so very unhealthy that a therapist I really liked refused to work with us until we either R'd or D'd. She said, "I can help you be happy apart or happy together, but I cannot help you be happy while stuck in a dysfunctional partnership. You either move toward each other or move apart, but I cannot help you while you are in 'non-committed limbo' because I have no goals to work toward. Let me know what you want when you come back." She put her foot down and really chastised us for our flat out codependent behaviors. Sisoon is simply right.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:49 AM, September 14th (Saturday)]

What helped keep me going was that splitting mindfully, if we really were poorly matched, was an OK outcome.

Absolutely

Coco - I guess so. But doing it for yourself and also wanting to save the marriage does not have to be mutually exclusive. I think it’s more important to know that you can’t control the second part.

why can't the BS be honest about this? Seems to me it would be more lying in the marriage, why contribute to that?

I would think in many cases, it is because they get to kick the can down the road. Just as it takes time for those resentments to build up, it often takes time for them to go away. So if a BS isn't sure what they really want, what better way than to have an automatic 'get-to-let-time-transpire-to-decide-what-I'm-going-to-do' be put into effect?

doing it for yourself and also wanting to save the marriage does not have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree. I wasn't saying otherwise. My point is that the CP who accepts that he is the problem is this situation and works to change himself regardless of what the BP does is the one who truly gets it. The CP who is doing things for the sole purpose of saving the M hasn't gone deep enough, imo. It's not about the M. It's about the cheater.

Using my fch as an example, he went to counseling with me for years off and on when he was home. It didn't help. I found out later that the reason it didn't help was because he was only there for me. He wanted to improve things between us just as much as I did, but he thought I was the problem.

I was the one with depression and anger issues. (He was shocked when a counselor told him that he was the one with anger issues, but I digress.) There was nothing wrong with him, nothing he needed to work on himself. His only problem was me. Well, we see where that thinking led.

Now, he sees that he does have some very deep seated and serious (maybe more serious than me) issues. He knows that he needs to work on those issues even if I decide that that I still want a D. We can't even begin to improve our M until after we address our own, individual problems.

So, yes, the hope may be to save the M, but that can't be the driving force for real change.

Coco - agree totally. Thank you for clarifying.