SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A lot of people claim they are going to divorce when the kids are older, but they are simply scared and will most likely never follow through. Change is usually harder than keeping the status quo because "better the devil you know than the devil you don't," especially for codependent types which many BS are.

I find this thread very interesting. We don't have any children so my perspective is pure speculation. I can't even imagine the amount of hurt and pain that goes with infidelity when there are children to consider.

What resonated with me was this:

Seems to me that a big consequence of the WS A and lies is that the BS is going to be less open, about a lot of things. And that is only natural. A WS shouldn't expect the previous level of openness and consideration as they had preA.

This is so true. I was always a very private person and after the affair this got even stronger. He knows this and doesn't push. This is my safety net. Don't get me wrong, I do love him, our relationship is probably better than before, almost 12 years after the A, but there is the litte thing with trust. I trust him with my life, he knows that, but… He has to live with that and it's not meant as punishment. It's just a consequence of his actions. A consequence I have to live with myself as well

I hope everybody will find a solution, that will be acceptable for them.

We just hit this phase of life as the last one is off to college.

However I believe they will be back at some point - even if temporary.

But so far so good. My H used to work from home but that just recently changed. So now he leaves for the city and returns home at 7 pm on a good night.

So I am alone most of the day. I have my own activities and I work from home so I have adjusted to the change in our lifestyle.

So far so good.

The WS has already shown their BS just how little they value them.

Yep. Not surprising that a CP would object to the fact that D is always on the table after infidelity. Should've thought of that before cheating. What, exactly, did you expect?

I don't see that as a punishment. I see it as a consequence. Although, right after dday, there was a part of me that felt like he owed me. I was going to live off of his hard work, doing absolutely nothing, for as long as I could. My heart has softened toward him in the last 4+ years.

I am not as willing to put up with all the little bullshit now. I am willing to stay for the family, but things need to change. If they don't, I'm out. Things are changing. Things are good for the most part. I am not happy (probably never will be), but I am content, for now. Maybe I'll still be content in another 5 years. Maybe not.

D has always been an option for me. I never held a romantic view of M. I never believed in happily ever after. A LTR takes work. If the work isn't being done, there's no point in staying.

and the WS should be punished forever for this?

completely get the dealbreaker thing. completely get staying for the kids. But be truthful about it.. what is the point otherwise?

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Lying is stock in trade for WS.

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

it's like many are comparing what comes after the affair as a continued battle between BS and WS. Is that what y'all want? everything's fair in love and war? OR an actual marriage?

the "hey you did this to me so i'm going to do this to you." is that what you want in your life?

[This message edited by sewardak at 8:03 AM, September 12th (Thursday)]

it's like many are comparing what comes after the affair as a continued battle between BS and WS. Is that what y'all want? everything's fair in love and war? OR an actual marriage?

I think it's the best that many can hope for. A "MAD" strategy (mutually assured destruction) along with a reasonable level of caring for the other person. Perhaps the worst thing about an A for me is that is totally destroys any idea of "communism" in the marriage. It becomes abundantly clear why that ideology didn't work in practice when you have a cheating partner. No, I don't want my marriage to be tit/tat or an endless scorecard. But it's what I got. Or, more correctly, it's what I had forced on me. The blinders are torn away after an A and, at least for me, it has to become more "every man/woman for himself". Not the extent that some might be thinking, but, certainly more than it was before the A.

And, A or not, it seems to me that a lot of marriages seem to wind up here. "Staying for the kids" or "the money" or "retirement" or something else. It's sad, in fact, it breaks my heart because it's exactly what I did not want in my marriage. But it's what I got, so I can choose either to ignore the evidence (of what she can/will do if given a "reason" in her mind) or I can choose to accept that information and make different decisions. I pick the latter.

I am sure some people stay only for the kids. There are many valid reasons to stay married. In my case, I don't WANT to stay married just for the kids. I want to WANT to stay married to my WH. HOWEVER, after DDay 2 (TT), I really have no idea if it's possible. Right now, I'm in limbo. Our two children will be out of the house in 7 years.

My WH introduced the idea of divorce into our marriage by having sex with someone else. It had never crossed my mind in the 20 years together before. In fact, I married him partially because I felt he had similar views on morality and loyalty (boy was I wrong!). He put the possibility on the table. That's on him. If we divorce at any point, it was his choice, not mine. Even if I'm the one who files.

My motivation to try is my children. They know and they would be devastated if we divorced. There is NEVER a good time to divorce IMO. Little ones can be affected, teenagers, adults. It always sucks. But right now, WH and I get along. We parent our children well now that he is making an effort to put family first. Together, we are capable of giving them (and ourselves) a much fuller life than if we were to separate or divorce.

I also loved my WH for 22 years before he dropped the bomb. That's a hard habit to break. He's doing everything he can to try to make our marriage and himself safe now. Walking away isn't my best choice right now. However, if in 7 years, I have not found a way to move past the trauma, I am sure I will more strongly consider separation or divorce. I hope I do move forward, but have no control over what happens in the future. He could also choose to divorce me. We can only choose to be together today at this point, and speculating about the future is a moot point.

Bigger rant on:

Infidelity comes in various size and shapes…

Since unsubstantiated claims are being made all over this thread then I’m going to state as fact that 98% of what this site deals with is “traditional” infidelity (as in sex outside the marriage) and/or emotional affairs. I could claim that there is scientific research to support that statement, but like most others I won’t bother. What Bigger states is fact. Get over it…

But we also have financial infidelity, domestic abuse is a form of infidelity, emotional abuse, porn usage… Actions and behaviors that are also outside the expected behaviors of a married couple and the commitments usually associated to marriage vows or the expected commitments of marriage. We accept and deal with all these issues as if they are infidelity since they really are infidelity. They occur when one spouse is not faithful to the vows, promises and expectations of the marriage.

If a wife came here on JFO and told us they had just overheard their husband tell a friend that he was only waiting for Jeff yr. to leave for college before divorcing… Would we be calling the husband a faithful man? Isn’t that husband guilty of going outside the vows, promises and expectations of the marriage? In other words: Isn’t he cheating?

I totally get it that infidelity is a deal-breaker and even that there are varying levels of “seriousness”. I think we that have experienced sexual infidelity would claim that discovering a spouse ran us 50k into credit-card debt is a walk in the park. In fact – to keep with the buzz on this thread I’m going to claim that scientific research shows that financial infidelity is a doodle compared to sexual… But I’m also certain that somewhere out there on the internet there is a forum where those recovering from financial infidelity claim the opposite.

When someone that has experienced infidelity DECIDES to remain in infidelity – albeit not active, but DEFINITELY not dealt with… and then claims to be in “sort of” reconciliation simply because the spouse isn’t having sex outside the marriage… Well… Bigger isn’t buying it. To me that’s like bringing a bottle of champagne to your AA group to celebrate sobriety.

To me marriage is the most important contract I enter willingly into and can unilaterally leave at any time and point for any or no reason at all. My spouse is the one that will decide if they should turn off life-support if I got into an accident of some sort. I would definitely hope that she wouldn’t see this as a quick path to shorten the wait until Bigger jr. packs his bags!

I regularly have my doubts about my marriage. I guess once every couple of years we have a serious fight, and both contemplate how much better we might be off alone. But that’s simply what marriage is. It has ups and downs. I think it’s important that both partners realize that the ONLY thing keeping either of us in this relationship is a decision to do so and that if we don’t tend to it then chances are one of us might decide to do so…

OF COURSE divorce is better than settling for an unhappy marriage – if you have tried your best to make it better. OF COURSE infidelity (the sexual type) is ample grounds to end a marriage. But to anyone that saunters around telling us he/she is ONLY married until the kids leave…

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone."

Bigger rant over.

TX1995 is right. WS can leave at any time too.

When a BS with kids is contemplating R, we need to keep in mind that BS do not have x ray vision. They do not know if their particular WS, despite all the tears flowing today, will again cheat or flat out leave the marriage by the time the kids are grown anyway. The subset of spouses who are WS are selected to be likely to do that anyway. So to demand that BS be all in on Marriage Mach 2 with a WS is foolishness.

Bigger, the whole aspect of "leave at any time" is why I will never marry again. My standards for leaving are a lot higher. Others are a lot lower. The ones who have lower standards will lie about their standards. I'm done with it.

But to anyone that saunters around telling us he/she is ONLY married until the kids leave…

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone."

I agree. I have been told by a close friend that staying in an unhappy marriage “for the sake of the kids” is not noble; it’s making myself a martyr and it’s wasting both my and my H’s time, time where we could ostensibly be finding happiness elsewhere (or even alone). And I see her point, to an extent—but I also believe the research that states children tend to do better in a home with an intact nuclear family. As someone else said upthread, things are tolerable. Neither of us are abusive, drunks/druggies, cheating, or financially unfaithful. We argue sometimes, unfortunately in front of the children, and when we argue we use cuss words—but for the most part, we are either pleasantly cordial or we avoid each other. The friend I mentioned says we are setting a terrible example for the children about what marriage should be, but what is worse: an example of an unhealthy relationship, or the myriad of problems that would occur should we divorce (financial; caregiving; emotional; split custody; etc)?

Again, it's not punishment. It is the consequences of the ws's actions. So sorry that I can not completely trust my husband after being so totally betrayed. Do I WANT THAT? Hell no. I would love to be able to trust him completly. But I can't. That is NOT my fault, and That is not me punishing him. That is the result of his choices.

My hats off to any BS who can completly be open and vulnerable with their cheating spouse. I can not do that. I have been kicked around a lot in my life. My husband is the very first person I have ever trusted. And it took me years to feel secure with him. I clearly remember telling him, I wasn't worried anymore that he would cheat,or hurt me. That it had taken years of working on myself, and my insecurities, but I had finally felt safe with him. I have never felt safe in my entire life. He was very sweet to me when I told him that. I found out,after dday, that the EA was already going on. So, no. I will never feel completly vulnerable with him again. That is not punishment. That is a consequence of his choices.

Everyone talking about how its punishment for the poor WS. Lol. I FEEL PUNISHED . I have to live with what he did every day. The pain is mostly gone. I love him. He loves me. But I have to look myself in the mirror, every day, and know that he tossed me aside at one point. I have to decide to stay,every day, because it goes against my beliefs. I feel PUNISHED for being a good, trusting wife.

I think some people need to step outside of their happy marriages, and realize there may be other BS here who don't have a completely remorseful spouse, who is doing backflips to stay married. And maybe not judge those BS for doing what they feel they have to do.

There have been many BS here who really fucking tried to reconcile, but realized years later, it was a deal breaker. And that is ok.

And, maybe we shouldn't chastise the BS who can't be honest with their WS, and tell them they won't allow their WS to dictate who they want to be. A WS has abused their BS and their kids. Maybe the BS needs to bide their time while they get their ducks in a row. They have to play pretend,to protect themselves from their abuser. Being honest with a person who has caused you enormous harm sometimes isn't a smart move.

I don't believe any BS WANTS to stay married just for the kids. But,again, not all WS are the picture of remorse. We WANT our WS to get it. We WANT true remorse. We WANT safety,security, trust, and love. Unfortunately, that isn't what we ended up with.

I consider us reconciled. He's done the work. It took awhile to pull his head out of his ass,and the damage done to me, during that time was significant. Regardless, I'm happy most of the time. When they kids are gone,I will reevaluate. But, in the meantime, I'm fucking trying here. And the last thing I need is to be judged for trying to do the best thing for my family. I didn't ask for this.

Punishment? JFC. My husband, 3 months out, accused me of trying to punish him because I would cry. For another BS to tell a BS that they are punishing their WS with the predicted, and preventable, consequences of their actions is bullshit.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:20 AM, September 12th (Thursday)]

^^^

So very much this! How can you be so selfish and entitled to think you can have an affair, and divorce isnt ALWAYS on the table?

I was madly in love with my cousin fucker. He was the only person in my life I trusted. My own fucking mother told me no one would love me.

But I'm supposed to be all in? No. I WAS all in. While he was all in his cousin.

**posting as a member**

So to demand that BS be all in on Marriage Mach 2 with a WS is foolishness.

I don't think anyone is demanding anything of a BS.

I am reading about choices in this thread we can make after the horror show of betrayal.

And I think most of this advice is for people much farther along in their healing. Early on, pain, sadness and anger are righteous, very reasonable responses to infidelity. I also think focusing on a better marriage can only apply if the WS knows what remorse is. In other words, I would always suggest divorce if a WS doubles down on their shitty choices and feels entitled by their selfish actions.

I don't care how people get to the other side of being betrayed, whether it's instant divorce, or eventual decision to reconcile.

Just get to the other side.

A lifetime 'battle' with a spouse or decades of punishment, or withholding or looking at time served versus being in a relationship doesn't sound like a life I would want for anyone.

At some point, misery is absolutely a choice.

I've done misery. I've comprised. I've resented. I've built walls.

I'm done with all of that.

Either I'm all in the relationship or I'm out.

Because life is way too fucking short for me to stay and feel shitty all day everyday or to try and make my wife feel terrible for her choices forever.

I never imagined infidelity in my world, and after dday, I never thought R would be possible either. I discovered offering a little grace -- to someone worthy of redemption -- goes a long way.

It's about the life you want. It's about the marriage you want NOW, not what happened or what may happen. We can't control any outcome or ANY person we're with, ever.

In the meanwhile, all the stuff in between is my life, and it will include joy, grace, and offering some level of trust to someone willing to show they can be kind and caring again.

I do think this is why so many members here told me to focus on me, my value, my needs and my sense of self. Once we have that part down, no outcome matters. And we choose to be vulnerable and live life to the fullest. It's the only way I see getting some fun back after experiencing emotional trauma I didn't ask for or deserve.

Solo or hitched again, divorced or reconciled, get to the other side of this.

Infidelity sure as Hell doesn't define me.

Wow! This thread blew up.

I like analogies. They make talking easier.

Marriage I think is supposed to be a 4 legged chair.

Leg#1 Love/Passion

Leg#2 Tolerance/Compromise

Leg#3 Trust

Leg#4 Respect

Back - Mutual commitment to support the family.

The infidelity cuts off the Trust (It is gone, if you see a red flag you check. Sorry, but even the WS shouldn't trust themselves anymore.) and puts the Back into question(WS may have been replacing the BS). It also shortens Respect (Communication and/or divorce prior to stepping out one sided).

Lets all stop being stupid. Kids do better in a happily married family. How do I know this? My parents were divorced when I was a teen, yeah, them staying together would have been better for me.

My kids friends, only 3-4 have married parents out of 30+, they all talk to me about how they wish their parents would "Get back together." Bigger was right about this. Everything else is us balancing our needs versus the family.

Now, that balance, is really tough standing on a chair, with 1 short leg(respect), 1 leg missing(trust), and maybe no back(Committed to the family).

So once you stop needing to support the kids, the chair falls over because the effort of trying to balance wears out the BS.

I guess, I didn't see it that way before.

The idea of grace is a little bull crap. We are all judged by our past behaviors. Just because your spouse didn't cross enough of your boundaries doesn't mean others haven't.

Your threshold is, YOUR threshold.

I have forgiven (Grace) people who don't deserve it, so I moved along better than most after A. But as you probably notice, "GRACE", if your spouse cheated again, they would have less threshold allotted.

Unfair (So was the A), but the WS proved they deserved less if they repeat issues.

Someone who is distracted and accidentally runs over a dog then makes amends is fine. If they do it again, everyone shakes their head and throws the book at them.

All the WS saying they want a clean slate. Your spouse believed in Santa Claus and set out milk and cookies every Christmas. One day you told them they were foolish for believing in Santa because he isn't real and you have been taking the milk and cookies. Then year after year wonder why the spouse stops setting out milk and cookies on Christmas. We were in blissful ignorance before. Then when we were woken up. It is the whole side by side marriage people talk about. It isn't better or stronger. It is more open and more free, but we all miss that blissful simplicity.

A lifetime 'battle' with a spouse or decades of punishment, or withholding or looking at time served versus being in a relationship doesn't sound like a life I would want for anyone.

I think this is spot on, and ties back to the original post. The BS who pulls the trigger later has exercised what Is stated, but after fulfilling what they see as their parental obligations. They have come to the conclusion that they didn’t want the battle to continue. In many ways it is the compassionate thing to do. Their marriage was never going to be as good as it was or what a marriage should be

I also think that in many cases, like mine, it wasn’t a devious plan. Things were ok, but never right. I didn’t have some master timeline. Just a buzzing that never went away that what she did was to me unforgivable. I do regret not laying track earlier to what I was thinking.

In reality her life kind of sucked too. She was constantly on edge that I would find some little thing that would put me over the edge to divorce her. Truthfully she wasn’t all that wrong. That’s no life for her either.

The thing was she felt like she deserved a less than great life after what she did, but I felt the opposite for myself.

Sometimes pulling the plug is just the only option left. Painful as it may be. After your kids are settled is as good a time as any

My XWH had his A after our two sons had left home - older married, younger at college. He had a typical MLC - the empty nest was different for him than for me. I was sad but relieved of many chores and worries. He lost his playmates. He felt old and useless (no friends of his own) and went looking for validation - of course, he didn't talk to ME about this. I was completely taken off guard. And he didn't try to R - he filed for D.

As for how it affects grown children - our sons were devastated. He was their role model and hero - he fell very far off that perch. It was very difficult on the youngest at college - I made him promise this would not derail his education, and it didn't.

XWH was oblivious to it. When we sold the marital home and he got a one bedroom apartment, he asked me why I was looking for a two bedroom rental. I replied that youngest son might need somewhere to go after he graduated college. XWH didn't think that would happen, but youngest moved in with me and lived with me for 2 years after he graduated. Thank goodness I had room for him.

We only had one grandchild at the time and he was confused about it - 2 years old. But we all weathered through the storm and now have 7 grandchildren, 6 of whom have never known us to live together. And it's fine.

Would we have been able to stay together? Would I have been able to forgive and trust him again? I will never know. We might have tried, only to D at a later time, but children and grandchildren would not have been the reason either way.

NL

The friend I mentioned says we are setting a terrible example for the children about what marriage should be, but what is worse: an example of an unhealthy relationship, or the myriad of problems that would occur should we divorce (financial; caregiving; emotional; split custody; etc)?

I think this is setting a bad example for the kids. You guys are essentially housemates raising your children together, while trying to pretend you are happily married for the kids' sake? That's dishonest. If you can D and coparent the way you are now, cordially, I think D might be better for everyone.

Of course children would rather see their parents together, in love, and have an intact family. But, that may not be what's healthiest for everyone involved.

When I say I doubt I will ever be happy, that has nothing to do with my M. I have major depressive disorder. Diagnosed when I was 15. I'm not going to be cured. It dampens everything I experience. So, I am not happy, but I can be content, satisfied, grateful.

I am not living in a state of constant conflict with my fch. We feel and express love for each other every day. I don't have a plan to D when my kids are grown. I plan to stay married to my fch.

I think people are making a lot of assumptions about why Ms dissolve years after infidelity and what appears to be reconciliation. Maybe they never really reconciled. Maybe they rugswept. Maybe the BS was pretending the entire time and always planned to D eventually.

Maybe...they had every intention of reconciling and tried their best, but it just didn't work. That doesn't mean anyone was being dishonest or punishing anyone. Maybe they did R from the infidelity, but something new came up.

No one can predict the future. R does not guarantee happily ever after anymore than anything else does. At least half of all marriages end in D for various reasons. Is it really that surprising that some seemingly reconciled Ms eventually dissolved anyway?

I think you need to look at the "empty nest syndrome" by itself before attributing that solely to infidelity

I also believe this is true. Empty nest was one of the parts of a multi-faceted crisis I was having when I turned to having an affair instead of trying to understand what was happening to me.

Having kids distracts your attention from both yourself and your spouse. You may have a harmonious marriage, still have sex, etc...we certainly did all that and made date night priority while they were at home for most of the years...but you go on a lot of feeling like you know the person beside you throughout the child-rearing years. You take that for granted when in all reality we are all slowly evolving and changing. You lose track of the others internal world, you feel less seen as do they.

For me, empty nest was a rude awakening that I didn't even know myself or what I wanted. I just knew I was done sacrificing so much of myself because I wasn't needed in that way. And that led to a lot of stages of pain, discomfort, disorientation, etc. Looking back I wish I would have seen that as a signal that my life needed to adapt, I needed to reassess, and I needed to use this new found freedom to get closer to the man I was married to and spend time getting to know each other again as people who aren't busy or interrupted with day to day kid stuff.

To me, though some of what you guys are saying is kind of sad. It isn't that I don't believe that divorce couldn't be on the table at any time, that my affair could still lead to that path. I understand that even five years down the line he could decide it really just broke things for him.

One thing I have read about trauma is that it puts you in a state of constant self-protection. And, I don't know if those of you with little kids will continue to stay in that state long term or not. But, if you do have a spouse on your hands that you truly believe they can be different maintaining that self protection long term to the extent you have it now is robbing yourself of a lot of the better and richer things in life.

Personally, I can understand why any remorseful WS would really stay and try despite the trials and tribulations of R. But, the BS is doing it with the person who traumatized them. Making that decision to stay seems to me like it is a monumental one and a lot harder to understand. But keeping from really going back fully in the marriage is really not a consequence just to the WS, it's a consequence you are paying for their actions. I am sure many of you already understand that. But, a life sentence, or even a 10 or 12 year sentence to keep your family in tact while you can't really relax ever again...I am not sure that's a consequence we feel.

I had a really smart BS tell me yesterday that my H has released a debt, what good does it do to go around trying to still pretend it's owed? He made a lot of points about forgiveness that I never thought about before. So, I can go around in this discomfort that my H says he is not in. Am I helping anything? No. And, I think that what you all are describing is the same thing on the opposite side of the fence.

I get it all boils down to trust and vulnerability, and I know why you would not want to return to that completely. I get that the WS destroyed that and often in the most horrific ways. But, why stay in a marriage that you never intend to try and restore that for your own sense of peace long term? It's hard to fathom really. And, it has nothing to do with feeling entitled that my husband does this, or that I am owed. It's more I wish it for HIM. I want him to be happy and feel free again. I can only help him get there so much, he has to do the rest. And, yes that's where grace and faith step it.

I think at some point many reconciling WS realize that marriage is fragile and we can't control the outcome no matter how far out we get. If we got a divorce it would be very sad indeed, and I would know I broke it. But, I can't go around feeling like the shoe is dangling and waiting to drop. Otherwise, I will self protect myself out of rebuilding the marriage I proclaim to want. It sounds like there are many BSs who live out their days waiting for the other shoe to drop and while I understand why, I am not sure I understand why you chose it.

Everyone is different, it's easy for me to say some of this because there aren't kids still at home either of us have to stick it out for. But, honestly, your kids can feel it...you are modeling marriage for them day to day. You can be as civil as anything in front of them but they pick up on undertones and they are sponges. It may not be the noble option you might think. I get there are finances and all sorts of stuff that keeps in the reigns so it's not like I don't understand it is more complicated for many.

Cocoplus, I apologize if I singled you out and tried to equate my situation to yours. I realize that my POV and that of a BS are totally different.

I also think that our marital problems in this iteration of our marriage have nothing to do with my being a WS (not saying anybody said that). Yes, I cheated on him, and we divorced because of it. In remarrying me, he truly feels (and acts) as though he did wipe the slate clean. He does not hold it over my head, and never has. The current situation is an ongoing personality conflict and compatibility mismatch that I should have been wise enough to recognize before making another ill-fated decision to join my life with his. I want out because I chose poorly, not because I can’t handle the ramifications of being a cheater. But having the kids has changed everything—it’s no longer just about what I want and the woulda, coulda, shouldas.