SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Tell her;

"Wife, you have secretly dated another man whom you admit to having sexual feelings for. You hid his name under a false name in your phone. You have met up with him on multiple occasions lying to me about where you were. You lied to me and refuse to give me the full truth. As a result, I cannot trust what you say.

I feel stupid and betrayed by the one person I had total trust in. It hurts and will take a long time to recover, if I can even do that.

I need to have the polygraph done because you have shown me I cannot trust your words."

The reason I recommend presenting an entire take it or leave it package of non-neogtiables is to avoid precisely the kind of tit for tat negotiating you find yourself in now. It’s why I presented the package not as a series of discrete steps but as an entire list of things she must do — all together.

“Here’s the package. It’s not up for debate. Yes the whole thing. Yes it’s an ultimatum. Pull your head out of your ass. Start doing it right now or we are done.”

To complicate matters, the AP's wife has now contacted me, saying that they were/are attempting to reconcile and that he's said to her there have never been other women. She wants details but, if you've read above, you'll know that my wife knows I've made contact with her. Not sure how to play this. Discuss things with the OW by phone

Did you mention the fallout to you from her contacting your mother in law? Tell her you are willing to meet and compare notes in a public place like Starbucks. Bring the VAR just in case this meeting is misrepresented.

Hey BSP,

Great advice has been given, and I will not be able to add onto that.

All I can do is to try and give you and insight to how your MIL might be thinking.

Your MIL does not want to see herself as failure, and by extension, her offspring.

Deep inside your MIL, she knows that her offspring has done a grave disservice to you and the M, but if that is so, then your MIL as mother, has failed in her motherly duties to bring bring up someone 'good'.

So, the short-circuit in her brain goes into crazy logic. Her daughter CANNOT be evil, as she (your MIL) is not evil, ergo, the other party must be the evil one.

Since you are the only other person involved in this (she does not accept there is an AP, so there is not AP), you must be the one that is evil.

If your MIL accepts that your WW has an AP, then it is an admission that her daughter had/had and A, and is evil.

Twisted crazy logic.

Anyway, your MIL is actually thinking like a wayward herself; justifying, blame-shifting, minimizing. Your FIL better watch out.... it may well happen to him (if it hasn't already).

ETA: Am not supporting your MIL in any way. I think her actions are reprehensible.

This opinion was to try and help YOU possible get more clarity in your murky situation.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 9:17 PM, December 1st (Sunday)]

Deep inside your MIL, she knows that her offspring has done a grave disservice to you and the M, but if that is so, then your MIL as mother, has failed in her motherly duties to bring bring up someone 'good'.

So, the short-circuit in her brain goes into crazy logic. Her daughter CANNOT be evil, as she (your MIL) is not evil, ergo, the other party must be the evil one.

Since you are the only other person involved in this (she does not accept there is an AP, so there is not AP), you must be the one that is evil.

If your MIL accepts that your WW has an AP, then it is an admission that her daughter had/had and A, and is evil.

This is a really good insight and helps me understand a convo I had recently with my MIL.

This is a really good insight and helps me understand a convo I had recently with my MIL.

'Glad' to be of help.

Hey Phoenix how is it going? I hope you are feeling better!

Deep inside your MIL, she knows that her offspring has done a grave disservice to you

I have seen a few rare instances of mothers who were completely incapable of believing their children could do anything wrong. No matter how obvious the misbehaviour is, it’s would always be somebody else’s fault. It’s eerie to watch. Phœnix MIL sounds like one of those. Suggesting that her daughter should have had affairs earlier? Unbelievable.

Your wife has surrounded herself with very bad people 'BSPheonix'. She's additionally tainted your reputation with those people. Any advice she gets from them is going to be bad for your marriage. She needs to make a choice to either clear up her lies about you to them, or she needs to cut them out of her life. Your marriage is going to have problems as long as she and you allow these people to inject lies and deceit into it. You've got to cut them out or cut your wife out. They are cancer to your future happiness. A decision needs to be made in order for your life to be free of pain and drama. You are worth the effort it will take to get yourself free from future betrayals. You bring the most value to the relationship. You are the prize. Don't allow anyone to disrespect you or cause problems in your life. Take care of you. I wish the best for you.

Update

Again, I thank you all for your advice. The perspective on my MIL was particularly insightful and, it lead me to information on Narcissistic Personality Disorder; it made for alarming reading (like a personality profile of my MIL). I need to determine how to manage that both short and long term.

This is a more comprehensive update than I provided before (little time until now). I recently gave my wife a list of demands (timeline, poly, post nup, STD test, etc.) and advised that, if she didn't agree I would be leaving on a trip for a few days, during which she would receive divorce papers. She took them for discussion points (despite my disclaimer these weren't for debate) so, I started to pack my bags. During this time she contacted her parents, who arrived while I was putting on my coat. My wife seemed to have a panic attack so, I had to try to calm her.

When my in-laws arrived I told them I'd briefly explain what was happening so they understood my position. I also wanted to take this unplanned opportunity to attempt to balance any distortions of the truth my wife had told them - more for me than them (I've got to try where I can so that, if the marriage ends, I've done all I could). In brief, they claimed they weren't aware of the full timeline of events/ extent of the deceit and, how supportive I'd been over the past couple of years (my wife had only conveyed negativity about me). My father-in-law seemed to warm to my perspective...then had a panic attack. Afterward, (we were all still together in the same room) he said that he couldn't understand how I could ever trust my wife/his daughter again (I've never seen him emotional -- he was a wreck), whereas my MIL pretty much stayed silent. My wife initially offered counters to my position, then capitulated, admitting that, in hindsight, she communicated an inaccurate impression of me.

My wife then raised the matter of my demands. Again, my MIL was silent, whereas my FIL tried to understand (he struggled with the polygraph, thinking it was extreme). I grew exasperated (but remained calm) and told them that, they don't have to understand and, diplomatically, that I'm being civil taking the time to explain and that these are essential steps to me being able to work toward a foundation of trust. MIL then made a comment about a positive STD test not proving anything other than what someone is infected with, not where they got it from. I countered that, I know I don't have HIV as I recently had blood tests (for a chronic illness) and, HIV is done as routine. If my WW has HIV for example, it's important I know and, is a possibility given the AP has a Tinder profile and frequently visits the far east for work and, for all I know they had unprotected sex. FIL bursts into tears at this point. I end discussions telling them we can talk in future but it's been a long day and there are things to do.

I return to packing my bags. My wife breaks down at the front door as I'm about to leave and...my eldest son appears at the top of the stairs. My wife says she'll meet all of the demands and begs me to not leave. I go to my son, cuddle and put him back to bed and, explain to him that his mum was a bit poorly. I didn't leave. I told my wife to start working on the timeline once she was composed. She did.

Timeline is now done and, I'm creating questions for a poly. I've also been in touch with the AP's wife, who confirmed they were trying to reconcile and, has clarified dates and times of events I know (she has her sources).

I hope that wasn't too garbled.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 5:43 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Congrats on taking control of the situation, putting that serpent MIL in her place (btw it deff looks like FIL could use some SI help) and making sure you have all you need to make an informed desition on your marriage.

Has your wife kept her version of the story in her timeline? have you laid down consequences if she is lying?

MIL then made a comment about a positive STD test not proving anything other than what someone is infected with, not where they got it from.

This is a red flag that can be seen from outer space.

Thank you.

This is a red flag

I'm aware of its potential significance but, the MIL has form for making comments simply when she wants to argue a point she thinks she can defend. She's never interested in intellectual honesty but, rather, ego and, sticking to a point (even if its indefensible).

Timelines reconcile. Even if they didn't have sex (due to lack of time/ample opportunity) it seems they were working toward creating that opportunity and, that's just as bad as far as I'm concerned. What I want is a foundation for truth.

As for consequences, I told my wife she has a period of 5 days to tell me anything else of significance; when that's over it's divorce if:

1.She has another affair

2.I discover the affair was more physical than she disclosed (just one kiss is supposedly all, which was outside in a car park, initiated by him when they met for lunch...because she'd always been too nervous to attempt and, was supposedly wrestling with a warped sense of morality)

3.She lies about me and I find out

4.She meets or has contact with the AP and fails to disclose this to me

She's agreed to all of the above. I followed this up with an email stating the above. Initially I intended to do it via a letter from a lawyer, but decided against it.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 6:46 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Also, @Thanos, thank you for your eloquence. You and others have provided such sound advice. I'm in a better mental place. This is apparent to me in the day-to-day events of life, for example, when re-reading posts today, I laughed out loud at the following comment you made (which, of course, isn't a departure from eloquence):

Bluntly, your wife is a shifty bullshitter.

Again, wholeheartedly I thank all of you for your support.

I haven't joined your thread previously, BSPheonix, because you were getting really good input and really seemed to be following a good path (IMO). It seems to me you have shown strength and resolve in very difficult circumstances even if you don't think so. Too many of us, myself very much included, fumble and stall and waffle and second guess and show weakness. Your strength and resolve is impressive, sir.

is a possibility given the AP has a Tinder profile and frequently visits the far east for work

Have you had a follow-up conversation with the OBW? As I recall, OBW indicated earlier that the AP has convinced her your WW is his only instance of infidelity.

How do you know about the Tinder profile?

BSPheonix,

I’d like to point out that even if the posters here have been through similar experiences, when we post, it’s just "words". However, you had to take those actions, you are the one who took a stand, who took control of the situation. I am very impressed, congratulations to you sir.

Now your WW has the choice of either giving you the truth and you might leave, or lying and you will leave for sure.

Before, she had the choice of lying and you will stay, versus telling the truth and you might leave.

Your MIL reminds me of my XWW MIL. I once had an argument with my then wife in the kitchen. My then MIL came over, sat down with my then Wife and started arguing with me siding with her daughter. I told my MIL that the discussion was between my wife and I, she has no business butting in and to GTFO.

You WW shouldn’t need her mommy to help defend her wayward ways or to defend her for anything. A grown adult admits his/her wrongdoing and makes thing right.

Remember that you need to be able to follow through D if things don’t work out to your satisfaction. Otherwise you’ll end up in false R and in a world of hurt.

Have you discovered anything new with the timeline?

I wish you the best, keep on posting!

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 5:29 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

Butforgrace said: Have you had a follow-up conversation with the OBW? As I recall, OBW indicated earlier that the AP has convinced her your WW is his only instance of infidelity.

How do you know about the Tinder profile?

The OBW: Several email exchanges but, she seems to have withdrawn from wanting to discuss the detail. It seems they were reconciling and, she was looking forward to a happy Christmas. I don't think she's convinced my WW is the only infidelity -- she seems to think he's a general liar and, not to be trusted...at least now.

Tinder: On a WhatsApp message I recovered, the AP shared a profile pic with my wife (at her request -- she was pushing for it and, the one heavily flirting, when he was being minimalist). She asked if this is the one he uses on his Tinder profile, expressing shock that he claimed to have one when recalling a joke with a waiter when they were at lunch together.

Make sure she signs that post nup. It should state as follows:

Should my wife and I divorce for any reason, these assets (list the assets or accounts) are not deemed marital property and are not included in the division of property in a divorce.

You want to state for any reason b/c if five years from now you divorce b/c you just don’t want to be married to her any longer (just using a random example) the post nup still is valid. If you state “divorce due to infidelity” in the post nup it may not hold up in a court of law years later if she has not cheated again.

My post nup is titled as a financial agreement (not post nup). Drawn up by an attorney and perfectly valid. Will hold up in a court of law.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 6:01 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

[ShutterHappy wrote]Remember that you need to be able to follow through D if things don’t work out to your satisfaction. Otherwise you’ll end up in false R and in a world of hurt.

Oh, I certainly will. If it weren't for the cost, I would have filed already, advising my wife that, ultimately, reconciliation would be my ideal (with conditions of course) but the marriage is over and was when she broke her vows. To me (and I won't let my wife know this) even if I do file for D, this doesn't necessarily signal the end; it does however formally end the marriage. There's no reason we can't remain together but, I don't intend to show my hand. At the moment my focus is on the best for my children -- if I thought my children would have better hearts and minds were we to stay together, even if it meant I had to lie to my wife about how I feel, I think I could do that. Their happiness is worth more than my own and, if the rest of the males in my family are anything to go by, when I'm 60 (and the kids are older and, hopefully, more mentally robust), I could still pass for 10 years younger...and seek another partner (if it were important).

Have you discovered anything new with the timeline?

Nothing new but,it's (her timeline) shifted my focus to an event I initially thought to be relatively insignificant: meeting for coffee instead of going to the gym (at a coffee shop next to the gym). I don't believe my wife would risk the public exposure/being found out, so I think there's more to this (that the meet probably wasn't at the coffee shop). This is one of the supposed reasons for meeting at the hotels near their respective work places (to keep a low public profile).

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 6:11 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

 This is one of the supposed reasons for meeting at the hotels near their respective work places (to keep a low public profile)

This feels so blatantly false at a visceral level. 45 minutes at a hotel is, as I'm sure you have considered millions of times, enough of a window for sex and clean-up.