SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She said now that she basically agreed that her friends come before me in her feelings of loyalty. She said she knew her husband should come first but that it wasn't how she operated.

O hell no. She's got to go.

TiF, even if you aren't going to file just yet, you can certainly still start taking steps in that direction. Start calling lawyers, file a formal separation if possible (in most states that will stop the alimony clock), start mentally and emotionally putting some distance between you and stbxww.

IMHO the important thing for you is to start putting YOUR head in the "I'm getting a divorce" bucket. Given the lockdown and your ww's complete lack of compunction about manipulating you, it would benefit you to start treating her like an EX wife.

Listen man - divorce sucks. It SUCKS. It's scary and it turns your life upside-down and it's financially terrifying and and AND. No two ways around it. But you know what sucks worse? Staying in a marriage with someone who is incapable of love and of incapable of treating you with the respect and loyalty and honesty you deserve. Living with that person is a horrible and sad way to exist. Being 6 months out from my divorce now, I can tell you that for ME, my life is sooooo much more calm and peaceful. No fights. No angst. No one treating me like shit. It is lovely. Sucked going through what I did to get here, but I am so glad I did.

TiF, her admitting to putting you low on her priority list is the most honest thing she has said in a long time. She's not telling you what you want to hear and then taking it back later. She's finally being honest that she doesn't put you first or even 3rd and more importantly, she is falling back on how this is who she is meaning it's not going to change.

I agree with Ellie. There is no reason that you can't do a phone consult or three so that you can get an idea of what D would look like before you're ready to file. Prepare yourself. Don't wait around otherwise limbo continues indefinitely and unfortunately waiting has not served you well in the past. It has lead to rugsweeping and continued limbo at your own expense. So start the mental lifting now and make it easier on yourself.

We talked about the friends over me priority thing and she claims I misunderstood her, and that of course I come before her friends, but that she would have to be rational and reasonable in any decisions, but all things equal I come first. Woo, what a resounding endorsement. She really has a way of saying stupid shit and then walking it back, time and time again.

Questions is..... are you going to fall for it.... yet again?

Hoping runs deep n keeps you in limbo.

TiF, do you think her ACTIONS are that of someone who puts you first? What evidence do you have of her putting you above friends?

After re-reading some of your posts, this happened...

Your agony is of your own choosing TiF. You see reality in front of you and you push it away. You're afraid and are clinging to a piece of paper that binds you to your WW. Meanwhile your WW sees no commitment in that piece of paper.

You're WW has no moral compass and although you say you have a moral compass, you have no anchor to explain why your compass should apply to others or even exist. In a world of moral relativism, your WW's and her 'friends' actions are not immoral. If you don't have a foundational reason for morals, then morals are individual, situational, and basically irrelevant. Your WW doesn't have a problem with cheating or cheaters; you do. Neither of you have a moral foundation to reference therefore neither of you can be wrong. Your personal morals apply to each of you alone.

It seems that what you want is for your WW to adopt some of your moral beliefs. The problem is that she sees no foundation for your beliefs therefore she has no reason to adopt them. That's why she was asking, 'but why?' over and over again during one of your counseling sessions. She was looking for the foundation of your belief system and because you don't have one outside of your own feelings you were left with just walking out of the session.

In business you're expected to back your ideas with facts, data, or something concrete that others understand and agree exist. The same is true with morality. Feelings don't cut it. If there's no foundational rock or anchor that a group of people can agree on and accept, then it's just feelings, and feelings are flawed and vary from individual to individual and situation to situation. Your WW will never understand your morals and her behavior will never truly change as long as you and she fail to share a common anchor for those morals.

I wish the best for you.

After re-reading some of your posts, this happened...

Your agony is of your own choosing TiF. You see reality in front of you and you push it away. You're afraid and are clinging to a piece of paper that binds you to your WW. Meanwhile your WW sees no commitment in that piece of paper.

You're WW has no moral compass and although you say you have a moral compass, you have no anchor to explain why your compass should apply to others or even exist. In a world of moral relativism, your WW's and her 'friends' actions are not immoral. If you don't have a foundational reason for morals, then morals are individual, situational, and basically irrelevant. Your WW doesn't have a problem with cheating or cheaters; you do. Neither of you have a moral foundation to reference therefore neither of you can be wrong. Your personal morals apply to each of you alone.

It seems that what you want is for your WW to adopt some of your moral beliefs. The problem is that she sees no foundation for your beliefs therefore she has no reason to adopt them. That's why she was asking, 'but why?' over and over again during one of your counseling sessions. She was looking for the foundation of your belief system and because you don't have one outside of your own feelings you were left with just walking out of the session.

In business you're expected to back your ideas with facts, data, or something concrete that others understand and agree exist. The same is true with morality. Feelings don't cut it. If there's no foundational rock or anchor that a group of people can agree on and accept, then it's just feelings, and feelings are flawed and vary from individual to individual and situation to situation. Your WW will never understand your morals and her behavior will never truly change as long as you and she fail to share a common anchor for those morals.

I wish the best for you.

I appreciate the plight of moral relativism. Unfortunately religion doesn't appeal to me. I have my set of beliefs and she has hers.

I said the reason for why I told my WF's husband is the categorical imperative which itself can be seen as having multiple solutions and doesn't provide an objective moral framework.

I agree, there is no reason my values must apply to my WW. I'm not forcing her to adopt a set of values. We simply don't share some very important key values. Some people work through having different key values in relationships. I was seeing if that is possible in my case, or if my WW could possibly see the error of her ways. There is sometimes a glimmer of hope here or there, but the answer, after giving her plenty of time and patience, is no.

I understand that what I am going through is 100% of my own choosing. I'm not saying "oh no, woe is me". I thought she deserved a chance. She has blown it.

Sorry for the 2 x 4 but 6 Months and 48 pages!

Perhaps it's time to pick a direction for your life to take.

Good luck

TIF, I think you are going through what i went through -maybe you cannot believe your life and dreams for the future with this person are dashed.Offcourse you had put all your eggs in this one basket but now you are the one left disappointed.That can really be a painful realization and we do sometimes wish our partners could do something to show us that what they did was a stupid mistake and that they want to fight for our families.All I can say is that I eventually had to accept that my spouse wants the best of both worlds-never mind if that left me feeling hurt and bruised.If someone has no ability to grasp how much hurt they have caused -then I think its a hopeless situation.

"We simply don't share some very important key values."

Exactly. It's too bad that there aren't a set of key values outside of what one would call 'religion'. Even something as simple as a universal agreement among individuals to 'do no harm to others'. Of course, for the over and under-thinkers 'harm' and 'others' would need to be defined.

Perhaps because of this dilemma and maybe as a way to bring some order to the disordered world, 'religion' was born. Even as corrupt, divided, and antagonistic as it is now, it still in its feeble way provides a common set of behaviors for people to anchor their morality to.

I'm truly sorry about your situation. I do wish the best for you. Take care of yourself.

Maybe I wasn't clear a few posts ago. I'm going to get a D, just not right now. This is an exercise in minimizing peak stress and managing logistics with children.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 1:39 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:29 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Ok that is a direction! But unless you inform your wife its more dithering

I'm split on whether you should inform your WW right away or not. Your WW is great at damage control, walking things back, and making you doubt yourself. She outright agreed that she put everyone else above you, said it was just how she operates, and then got you to believe she actually meant the complete opposite of what she said and doubt your own experience.

If you could count on her to buckle down and get to work sincerely, informing her could be the kick in the ass she needed. But this isn't new to her. It's not the first time you've issued ultimatums to her only to walk them back later. She's probably not going to take it seriously outside of telling you whatever you need to hear to back off on going forward with the D. I think you should wait a little until you're closer to filing to tell her and be prepared to hear a string of promises she doesn't intend to keep.

I would also say telling her now may create tension which you do not need during lockdown.

I think do you homework in the meantime regarding D if you have decided to go that route.

I am so sorry you're here, TiF. I just wanted to say, after reading all of your posts in this thread, I recognize so much of my own story in yours. I am not talking about the nature of the affair, the way I found out or even the years my relationship lasted before DDay. What I am talking about is the way we and our WS handled it afterwards.

My WEXSO went full NC, "chose" me and initially agreed to all the things I needed from him. Acces to his phone and other electronics, he stopped drinking (which was a huge issue), went to MC with me and paid for it (still regret MC but that's another thing) and some other small needs. In addition to that, he also said all the right things.

There were two major issues though: one was the IC for himself I needed and the other was the lack of general effort I needed to see from him.

The way you and your WW handled her quitting her job, feels to me the same way me and my WEXSO handled him getting IC. He took the initial steps, found one, then some time went by because he was put on a waiting list. Hidn't put too much effort into it but when I went away on a trip by myself, he felt what it would be like to miss me in his life so he put a little bit of extra effort into getting an appointment with the IC. He fairly soon after pressing got a consult with one, but I came back from the trip and then some more months went by. We had some fights about it, he would deflect and attack and yell that I couldn't fix him. That he was not crazy. (I mean, I was in IC myself then, why would I equate going to IC to being crazy, wtf?). Some more months went by, I would detach after him saying some stupid shit and he would immediately put some more work into the getting IC and then nothing again for months. Do you recognize that pattern?

As for the general lack of effort: he did a lot of helpful things (he almost always listened to me when I triggered and cried and he bought the books our MC recommended after our first session, he did most of the exercises our MC recommended with me, he stopped drinking for almost 90 days etc) but he also lacked in a lot of areas. He would say he missed his life before the A happened, going out with his drinking buddy (also a WS) as much as he wanted to, he did not read the book he bought for us while I had already finished it within a week, he did not open up in MC as much as I wanted him to, he would criticize me for crying so much (because "he was in agony over him being the cause of that pain", so wayward of him) very much like your WW commenting on your LACK of emotion, he would tell me to go live my life and enjoy it, he would say he felt caged just like, I believe, your WW said she felt trapped, he also went back and forth with the handing over the phone and to top it all off, he did not get me anything this last Valentine's day (he did for the first one after D-day, but not this one). He expressed a couple of times that he felt so much pressure to do things for me and with me. In the end, I felt like a chore.

It took me a year and a half to get out. How much longer is it going to take you?

[This message edited by Hedwig at 11:34 AM, May 22nd (Friday)]