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Sorry, Ozzy, hate to say it, but she's toast. She doesn't care about you or the kids or anything else but herself. I've just been through this scenario myself. And it really really sucks eggs.

You sound like a heck of a nice guy, but you need to 180 hard. Get it through your head. You cannot appeal to her better nature or Higher Power or her family. She just doesn't care and wants out. Protect yourself and your kids. Eat, breathe and sleep.

Two recommendations. One a book called Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Not pop psychology, some real research.

And, a thread below Just for Us Guys:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=353067&AP=1

And hang in there. It does get better.

Don't want to rant about your STBXWW, but I am not surprised by the result, and am very sorry for your situation and for your kids. I gotta beleive it was hard for you to take the goodnight my princes on the one hand and know that she is making plans to oust you at the same time. As far as not making it harder, how exactly are you doing that? By disagreeing with her thinking? She ain't seen nothing yet.

You should go 180 now and do your best to detach. Be civil but little else. Don't be a shoulder to cry on. Don't be a fixer. Don't be someone that is always there for her. She needs to know that you are not her backup, her buddy, her confidante, her friend, or the new OM for those nights when she is lonely pining away for the Vikingclown in Norway.

Take care of yourself and the kids. you have a long ride ahead, but many have gotten to the same place before. Rely on the folks here.

I hate to sound any discordant note with another respondent, but IMO ozzy has already done far too much cajoling and persuading. We saw how that turned out.

I totally agree. If you read the advice to you, most are not adovcating "friendly", they are advocating a STRONG 180.

You said:

I love you but I cannot share you. This love will not last forever if you do not work on it and continue to see/be in contact with OM.

If I were your wife, I would think you were still in denial. She's made her choice. It's time for 180.

I still think we can reconcile in the future, but this belief will get less each time I hear of you contacting OM.

If I was your wife this statement would reinforce the fact that you are still going to be the Nice Guy waiting around for me to decide his future. You might be alittle pissed right now, but you'll get over it especially since you still sound desperate to hold on to the marriage she wants out of.

I will be civil and fair, but for the moment, you have lost your husband and best friend.

If I was your wife I'd be thinking "Thank God! he's going to be fair in the settlement and this divorce should be easy, heck I even get to decide on what to tell the kids and will probably come out ahead!And I might even get to hold on to him as my best friend even though I've lost that FOR THE MOMENT"

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think that the messages you are wanting to send her are what you are actually sending.

Morning All. Thanks again for taking the time out to give your advice and support.

For all recommending the 180 - I´ve printed it out and got it in my back pocket. Read it about 3 times a day.

Update on yesterday - Managed to calm down and get more rational. Not sure I mentioned it, but I have a very good friend over here who was the WH and has been a rock to me since this started (he reconed with his wife 3 years ago).

Vented to him and he gave good advice.

NC during the day, she came home, talked finances, said I wanted everything in terms of rent, mortgage, food etc. split 50/50. Talked other business/parenting issues.

Somehow it moved on to her feelings for OM, and I said one of the hurtful things was that she nurtured these for last 8 months instead of trying to nurture marriage. She asked could I change my feelings for her? Replied yes and working on it as I need to survive this.

Went out for coffee with friend, came home, we went to bed (both sleeping in same bed). She put her arm over me, I moved it.

She said "It´s weird because my instinct is to just cuddle up to you. We are such good friends, we can never be enemies." I replied "sorry, we are not friends at the moment, you have chosen not to be, this is what you are losing." Physical needs are a temptation (as I am sure you can all relate to), but as longsadstory1952 says I am not going to be the new OM. Will be strong on this, I promise.

Bigger and my friend nailed it -

Your WW is not in love with the OM because he’s so great. She’s in love with the emotions that having the affair with OM offer her.

I´ve given up knocking down the OM and his commitment. You are right, that just strengthens her feelings.

One interesting thing from my WW is that in recent months she has rarely talked about how our marriage had problems in the past. She has always said I have been so strong through this and admires that. I write this as I don´t think it will ever get to the pity stage that Bigger mentions (and I intend to never act that I need to be pitied).

My friend, who was the WS, said his darkest moment was when he moved out and realised he would lose his family, and I think that is where my WW needs to go.

Alluringillusion - yes, reading back my email, I am still keeping her options open aren´t I! It´s that polite English guy in me!!

Reading material not an option for her - tried this for 8 months, no result.

Focussing on keeping cold inside and using my anger to my advantage. Feeling better than yesterday.

On a brighter note, I found out yesterday I am going to the north of the country for two nights for a conference, which is a perfect distraction - different people, dinner parties in the evenings. So back on Thursday afternoon and then just Friday and Saturday before I take an 8 day break to the UK.

Hopefully these trips will give me more clarity inside myself as to where I want to go forward.

180, 180, 180!

One of the advantages we have as BS dealing with WS is that their behavior is predictable. The same applies to us actually – our behavior as BS is also predictable. Our advantage is that we know this and therefore we can in a way control and change our predictable behavior while at the same time impacting the WS behavior. To date YOUR behavior has been predictable and falls fully into the scope your wife expects. That’s what you have to change.

It’s a bit like knowing beforehand 4 out of 6 numbers in the lottery. It limits our guesswork and increases our odds of getting to the right solution.

Ozzy – I don’t think anything your WW has done to date makes her worse than other WS. This is not a hopeless case or gone too far for redemption. If you want to R then R is still very much a possibility. There is a fantastic poster here on SI – one of my hero’s – whose user-name says basically all there has to be said about his story; Wifehad5. He and his wife post here regularly. I’m going to PM him to look in on this situation here.

Has your wife been disrespectful? Definitely. Have you been too nice? Probably.

But suggestions of throwing her out, changing the locks and so on… well frankly these are all things that will blow up in your face and leave you open for legal charges of abuse. They won’t do anything to enhance your chances of R. Not any more than leaning backwards to accommodate her.

Basically ALL you need to do is make the affair reality. You are already on that track:

If you carry on the affair my will to reconcile will go away.

If you carry on the affair it will financially impact us.

If you carry on the affair this family will not exist.

If you carry on the affair our friendship will end.

If you carry on the affair then living together isn’t happening.

If you….

Carry on with detaching. Carry on with making the consequences of her decisions clear. Do the 180. Right now she is depending on you being moody, down and confrontational. Do all you can to counter that. One of the most powerful ways to act is to seem content. It sends a message that although you hate what’s going on you are also so very clear that you are moving out of infidelity.

I left my H in Dec '07 for the same reasons. I needed to end the 8 month infidelity in my marriage.

We were separated for 6 months. The first 9 months of R were false. Although the PA had ended the EA continued. We are now in real R for the last 18 months. I would never say we are reconcilled. It's far too early yet. So what you are hoping for does happen.

In my case I had to kill my marriage and start a new life for that to happen. I don't mean "appearing" that way I mean actually living it.

I vowed NC with FWH. I would not talk with him unless it involved our children or our separation. When H would bring up the "can't we be friends" speach I would tell him, without emotion but as a statement of fact, "You aren't my friend. My friends care about me and people who care about me don't treat me like that"

"You aren't my friend. My friends care about me and people who care about me don't treat me like that"

Isn't that the darned truth. :(

Sounds like you are doing an excellent job - keep it up.

Wait until your wife announces to the OM that he has won "the prize". He is very likely to dump your wife in short order. Hang in there and stick to your plan.

Hey Ozzy,

You've had a lot going on and have gotten a lot of great advice so far. I imagine you're going crazy at the moment

In your last post you mention that you'll be doing some traveling for work and pleasure in the near future. I think this is a good thing and you'll have some time and distance to be able to be able to think things over. I don't think at this moment you need to make any decisions. I would suggest you take this time and use it wisely.

At the end of the day, we all need to do what we think is all we can do to save our marriage. Each one of us has a point where we have to say enough. Some people walk immediately, and some try to reconcile with an unremorseful WS for years. Only you can decide when you've done enough.

I've been reading and posting on SI for over three years now, but I can't tell how it's going to end in any particular situation from the first few posts. When I first joined, most of the feedback I received was that my wife was too broken, what she'd done was too bad, and I'd be better off to just leave. I can tell you that those people were wrong. She was able to own her shit, and work through the issues that caused her to be broken. She's a different person now, and I'm glad I stayed.

My point here is that I think you may find it helpful for you to slow down a little, and take the time you need to decide what you really want, and what your wife is capable of. Protect yourself yes. Do the 180 where applicable. See an attorney. But don't make a decision today just to make a decision.

Well, back from my business trip after 2 days and feelings 100 times better than before! Wifehad5 and everyone else - thanks for taking the time to give advice.

The trip away has definitely strengthened me and given me the chance to see there is a world out there. Free food and booze, flirted with ladies, just what the doctor ordered!

WW has found a place and is moving out around 1st October. Location is nearby which is good for the kids. I actually felt pleased when she told me.

Plan is I have the kids at home during October as she does not have the money to get beds etc. this month. First impression was hang on, now she has a love nest and can see the kids, but if that is what she wants to do, so be it. I will not always be waiting for her and my respect (what is left) will then fall completely away.

It is better for the kids that they stay with me at the start and she visits.

Told WW that she can come over any time during October to see kids, but must give me advance notice, she was taken aback by that but understood.

At the end of the day, we all need to do what we think is all we can do to save our marriage. Each one of us has a point where we have to say enough.

-Absolutely! I am being friendly (but not a walkover) now that it is definite she is moving out, and my logic is that I want her to go missing something not thinking "Thank God I´m free". This trip away has made me reflect on if I want to be with her, and certainly the way she conducts herself in the next 2 months will decide that.

She had a hectic time while I was away with kids/work and it seems to have made her think about the single life in a different light.

Some signals are certainly "We need the separation if we have a chance to save our marriage" whereas two weeks ago the impression was separation is the first step to D.

Still doing and reading the 180, off to UK on Sunday, so things are improving for me mentally. I can see there is light at the end of the tunnel. Dreading telling the kids when I come back from holiday.

Showing happiness and contentment and following Bigger´s advice of making the affair a reality. Had to laugh yesterday, she said we need a new food processor to make fruit smoothies for her and our son. I said, sorry, we can´t afford that now, it´s a luxury. No comment from WW.

One final question - WW is moving out for reasons you all know. She keeps commenting that people she has told are suprised I am not moving out. Asked her is she has explained the full circumstances, and she has. Is it me, or are the people she is talking to very messed up in the head with their logic and ethics? Should I have moved out? Doesn´t really matter now, but just curious.

[This message edited by ozzy344 at 2:52 AM, September 17th (Friday)]

She keeps commenting that people she has told are suprised I am not moving out. Asked her is she has explained the full circumstances, and she has. Is it me, or are the people she is talking to very messed up in the head with their logic and ethics? Should I have moved out? Doesn´t really matter now, but just curious.

This is amazing isn't it? I would bet that she has not told them the whole story despite what she tells you. My experience is that the WS tries to surround themselves with people who will agree with them. I would be very surprised if she did not just tell them there are "problems in the marriage" and you are separating.

My stbxw created a small circle of support for herself where she completely rewrote the marital history. She did the same with her family as well.

Hang in there bro.

She has apparently told these people the whole story, which really makes me question their sense of right and wrong.

WW now getting defensive about situation and panicking about finances - "I´m running around the place sorting out the flat, buying things and you are doing nothing, sitting in your comfort zone". Also starting to pick holes in our marriage - I was always doing this, we had financial help from my sister etc.

Thanks to Bigger´s advice, I was prepared for this conflict and have taken the higher road and dealt with it in a detached and reasonable way instead of reacting to it negatively.

Bigger - you were right on the nose with this one, and your earlier advice has helped me deal with it in the right way.

Nothing but the appearance of contentment!

Is your wife moving out to clear her head, analyze her marriage and make a decision about your joint future? Or is she moving out to set up a exciting sexual location for her ongoing affair; aka - OM's mistress.

Will you take her back after their fantasy ends, the fuckfest loses its glamour and she wants to come home to reliable BH and kids?

Need to think about your future and whether it now includes your selfish WW.

She has apparently told these people the whole story, which really makes me question their sense of right and wrong.

According to whom? Your wife? The people she has told?

A bit of a 2 x 4 dude: This is a crazy assed world, no doubt, but I would be very careful about what I view as an idealized view of your WW. From what I have read, you are believing that she has told them the honest truth, she is fucking someone else...and they are shocked that she would be moving out? Seriously?

All I am saying is believe NOTHING that you hear and only 1/2 of what you see in these situations. Yes, people generally are fucked up and have a screwed up view of things. Just make sure that you are not wasting your time internalizing statements like this when you are clearly in the right.

Dude, you are on the high ground here. Statements like that are meant to bring you down to their level. Do not let them do it to you.

Hey ozzy,

Be careful on one aspect: If you start dating and flirting then it does open a potential car or worms. It would be best you avoided that until AT LEAST she leaves and/or you two decide that this separation is the first step in divorce.

Personally I do think this separation is exactly that: It’s the first step to the technical termination of your marriage. I don’t think she is leaving to get distance or to reevaluate the marriage. Doing so while actively seeking the affair simply does not make sense. It´s like having a drink while contemplating your drinking problem…

Don’t worry about what she says friends say. First of all it comes back to you from her through her friend’s response to how SHE told them what’s going on. Second of all it simply doesn’t matter. This is not a popularity competition.

Regarding finances: Offer to do a formal separation agreement and with that to evaluate how best to divide assets. Have a feeling she will refuse, especially when she sees it will disrupt the boys lives. But after that you always deflect finance questions unless they are totally relevant. Like the smoothie blender issue: you simply tell her that she can go get herself one if she so wants in her new apartment. To you it’s not an issue and you don’t have an opinion or view on that issue.

Ozzy – As WH5 says only you can decide when enough is enough. It’s totally your call and you are free to make it when you reach your decision. You are also totally free to change your mind at any time.

Thought the worst was over and I was wrong.

Txt on Friday night from OMW to say OM found out we had been in contact. Nothing from WW during Saturday about this (OM is back in the country).

Arguement in evening about selling the car, escalated to talking about debts, and she got stressed when I informed her both debts and assets are split (I have credit card debt of about 1,500usd). Arguement got deeper. She mentioned OM, I asked if they had been in contact, dodged the answer.

Told her he knew I had contacted OMW and that her prince charming had not been totally honest with OMW, also that they were going to try to fix M.

Did not believe me. Contacted OM, he gave her bullshit. She wanted me to prove I had been in contact (tears streaming now). Gave her the facts. Long calls to OM, loads of tears, talked Icelandic, but basically she was saying you have lied to me.

Her world was crumbling rapidly as she realised he had been leading her on. Why had I not warned her, why did I not tell her I had met OMW?

She was a mess, sounded like she had realised OM had been lying to her.

Then turned it all on me - I have betrayed her (!), weak and insecure for doing this, will never sleep under same roof as me, will be drawing up D papers while I am away.

Although nice to hear her fantasy world has come crashing down, still painful when someone close to you is hurting. At the same time, sad to see her emotions over realising he had messed her around, and that she has never shown this emotion towards me since PA.

8am over here, she has gone with friend to walk up mountain (not OM - he is home with D as his W has gone away for a few days). Saw her just before she left. Divorce, everyone has manipulated her, all men are the same - cannot be trusted. I politely reminded her to reflect on that comment.

Leaving for UK in a few hours, so will probably not see her. Sadly this is probably the part where the face cuts off the nose and she sets up the D papers. I guess her reaction to me meeting OMW is normal, she does not sound like she sees any hope in our marriage now.

Strange as I don´t feel any concern either way, and I think I am at the acceptance part of the greiving process.

Last two days I have been thinking hard about if I want recon, and my determination to do this is getting less.

Time will tell, but thank you for hearing me out and the advice you have given. Will relax and enjoy my break. What will be, will be

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when...

The A has definitely entered the "cold reality" phase now! What a surprise, she's mad, and of course it's All Your Fault(tm) for letting Prince Charming lie to her.

WTF ever. Stay the course, keep doing 180, let her stew and draw up all the fucking D papers she wants. Sounds as though she's in a complete tailspin, blame-shifting and lashing out. I know it's painful, but nothing she says right now means shit, basically. Once the dust settles a bit then hopefully you'll know better where things stand. Hope you have a safe & enjoyable UK trip...

Oz

Sounds to me like reality is hitting her smack in the face.

This can only be a good thing.

When she danced, she forgot that eventually she'd have to pay.

Stay strong and distanced, and on YOUR course. If you give in to her and comfort her pain she'll slip right back into her fog again.

Thanks. She called later. I have kicked her when she is at her lowest, she feels betrayed, that I have been manipulating her, she can trust no-one (has she not been listening to me over the past few weeks!), our marriage has no chance now, this was the worst thing I could do.

I know that we need this separation to get out of the cycle of arguing, heal our wounds.

Hope I have done the right thing by this action. Doesn´t feel like it right now, but my brain is telling me it was. I read somewhere you need to destroy your marriage in order to rebuild a new one.

Only real regret is that my 12yr old heard us arguing. Also heard OM´s name mentioned and is questioning that. I have said nothing to him, leave that to WW.

Full court press on the 180. Do not engage her. Anything you say now will only be turned around and used against you. Your response to all her verbal vomit should be "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "whatever you have to tell yourself". Better yet, go completely dark. No communication during your trip.