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he confessed all to his W, which is why my WW confessed all. OM´s W has chucked him out

Your wife's confession was performed from a damage-control mode then, not out of a sense of how evil her actions truly are.

It would still be in your best interests to contact OM's BW. Rarely do adulterers just confess for no reason - it's possible the other BS got dumped and abandoned, any number of things could be going on.

When they leave to go find themselves, why do they always find themselves in someone else's pants?

(I think you're in denial about this one, friend)

They leave for independence, that's for sure - avoiding scrutiny is high on a cheater's list.

The little "reality" is an ACT.

She's feeding you crumbs to keep you involved in case the OP doesn't like the cake she's baked for him.

Oh, forgot, are you paying for the ingredients? If so, how does that feel?

Can you cut her cell phone off? Look at the bill?

It saddens me when a good guy like you gets his love for his children used against him.

Please stop letting yourself be played ozzy))). Sorry you're here -

Contact the BW.

Thanks for the feedback, especially 2hurt. Yes, my head is spinning about me being 2nd choice, but my gut tells me this is something I have to follow through.

This situation is very much like giving your WS a deadline - if it was in the same town, they would probably contact the OP before making a decision, except this is a different country.

She is so tangled up in this, that this does seem the only way - by phone would only leaving things hanging, and in a selfish way, I want closure. Yes, she has lied to me in the past, but I have made clear that anything physical would end any chance of our future.

OM´s wife definitely knows, she went into my WW´s office looking for her two days before I got the confession.

These 8 months have made me very strong - lost 6kg, more social life, more activities with kids, and I am going to keep on this path.

Norway is a done deal, and strangely I feel better. As I said to my WW - I´m putting all of my chips onto the table - all or nothing.

If she returns and plans to be with OM - I visit his wife to fill her in on the new, and WW has lost me.

If she returns and says still not sure - see above.

If she returns and it is over - we still have a chance and I keep working on being a good husband/father/man.

Whatever happens, 99% sure we are still mutually separating unless some miracle happens, mutual time with boys. She is a good Mum with them day to day(absolutely sure), just a bit self centred at the moment and not fully realising the impact of separation on them.

One thing I know is that even though I may not have listened to advice, I am a stronger person because of this, I have tried my absolute best, and although the near future may be tough, things will get better whichever way it goes.

From the point that she returns from Norway onwards, I am getting alot tougher - This is the last goodwill I do unless she makes an effort to work on our M

Does anybody have any thoughts on my earlier question - I have read the article about The Fog and am really tempting to print this out and show her. Is this too patronising and may go against me? Has anyone else done this to their WS?

Thanks for the feedback, especially 2hurt. Yes, my head is spinning about me being 2nd choice, but my gut tells me this is something I have to follow through.

This situation is very much like giving your WS a deadline - if it was in the same town, they would probably contact the OP before making a decision, except this is a different country.

She is so tangled up in this, that this does seem the only way - by phone would only leaving things hanging, and in a selfish way, I want closure. Yes, she has lied to me in the past, but I have made clear that anything physical would end any chance of our future.

OM´s wife definitely knows, she went into my WW´s office looking for her two days before I got the confession.

These 8 months have made me very strong - lost 6kg, more social life, more activities with kids, and I am going to keep on this path.

Norway is a done deal, and strangely I feel better. As I said to my WW - I´m putting all of my chips onto the table - all or nothing.

If she returns and plans to be with OM - I visit his wife to fill her in on the new, and WW has lost me.

If she returns and says still not sure - see above.

If she returns and it is over - we still have a chance and I keep working on being a good husband/father/man.

Whatever happens, 99% sure we are still mutually separating unless some miracle happens, mutual time with boys. She is a good Mum with them day to day(absolutely sure), just a bit self centred at the moment and not fully realising the impact of separation on them.

One thing I know is that even though I may not have listened to advice, I am a stronger person because of this, I have tried my absolute best, and although the near future may be tough, things will get better whichever way it goes.

From the point that she returns from Norway onwards, I am getting alot tougher - This is the last goodwill I do unless she makes an effort to work on our M

Does anybody have any thoughts on my earlier question - I have read the article about The Fog and am really tempting to print this out and show her. Is this too patronising and may go against me? Has anyone else done this to their WS?

I have read the article about The Fog and am really tempting to print this out and show her. Is this too patronising and may go against me? Has anyone else done this to their WS?

They are under the influence of powerful chemicals (dopamine because of the nice things the AP says, endorphins to kill the pain, adrenaline because of the excitement of it all, oxytocin our the yinyang because of the good sex all this "chemistry" creates) and are best treated as addicts. If you show her that, she will probably not "get" it. She -- like every lying, cheating asshole -- thinks her tawdry little A is special.

Let her have it. Seriously, just step back and be a man. The thing will go down in flames very quickly once the adrenaline, endorphins, and dopamine are removed from the equation, i.e., once they're forced to start having a real, adult relationship. Maybe she'll come crawling back, maybe not. Either way, you've got your self respect.

Part of her issue is that she has changed and wants more out of life (midlife crisis),and cannot see doing this with me,although I have always been supportive in improving herself.

Key issue here: The affair is all about her and her actions. There is nothing you did or can do that “caused” the affair. Nor is there much you could do to prevent it. It all boils down to her decision. If your marriage was bad she could demand change or divorce. Choosing to have an affair (and it is a choice – it didn’t “just happen”) is comparable to deciding to beat someone senseless because they have bad breath. Do not lay or accept a single iota of blame for what’s going on.

Saw my MC yesterday (WW won´t come),

MC while the affair is active is a waste of money. If the MC is offering you guidance (more like a IC) then by all means meet with him. But while the affair is ongoing then having your wife attend is like taking a six-pack to an AA meeting.

Take great care on one issue: Does your MC have experience with infidelity? I have noticed a significant difference in what MC’s say depending on their “specialty”. For example an infidelity focused MC will agree with telling the OMW whereas others might not.

and even he implied “Get out of there!“. Yes, I think most people would not persevere like me, but love + 15 years together + kids is a strong motivation as some of you know.

Actually relatively few marriages end due to infidelity. I recall the odds being something like 20% ending directly because of the infidelity and 80% working through it. However this stat does NOT reflect how people work through it and if the couple divorced later.

I can understand your willingness to reconcile and I think the “get out” choir tends to become relatively loud here on SI… There are NUMEROUS cases of successful reconciliation here on SI, the founders of this site are a reconciled couple and WifeHad 5 is a major force here (If you only take one thing from my post then let it be that you listen to what WH5 says and suggests).

Divorce IS a realistic outcome to your situation but so is reconciliation. Frankly IMHO neither option is “bad” or the worst possible outcome. Either option will eventually lead you out of infidelity. The only bad option IMHO is remaining where you are – in active infidelity.

now after what you are letting me do, I think here is a man who truly loves me and why am I letting you go?

I´m a bit confused here…

You see – If she can have OM and you then she will be happy. If she can live in her drama she will be happy. If she can avoid reality she will be happy. So I think she might be happy with you because in a sense you are enabling her to all three.

But then… It depends on how you said it and terminology:

I advocate telling a WS that they are free to do whatever they want. If she wants OM then she can go to OM. No problem. But her actions will have consequences. If she sees OM it erodes and possibly completely removes any will you have to reconcile. So if she goes to OM then it’s not certain she HAS a path back to you. If you laid it out like that then I am 100% in agreement AS LONG as you have ways to enforce and show your commitment.

I’m sorry but experience here shows that spouses that move out while the affair is active seldom do so to improve the marriage. This applies probably more to women than men. She’s moving out to minimize the pain of final separation. She’s moving out to ease her guilt at seeing OM.

Personally I don’t see how running from a problem will solve it. If she is as stubborn as you say then the solution might be to utilize that stubbornness to work on the marriage.

About the OMW and that she knows: Confirm it personally. Make sure the OMW knows your wife is going out to talk to OM. Open up a line of communications with the OMW.

About the work: Is this affair work related? If so then what is the professional relationship between OM and WW?

One more thing:

You can’t “educate” her out of the affair. Print the article about the fog and she will ignore it.

What you CAN do (and should do) is make it clear to her that this is HER call at the moment but only at the moment. You are determined to get out of infidelity with or without her. She can jump on the train NOW or in the next few days but once you are out of the station picking up momentum then you are gone!

Then you make the reality of separation clear:

Do your finances allow comfortable lives as single parents?

Can you sell your house (or keep after separation), cars and so on?

Can you stick to joint commitments made as a couple?

Will you remain in Iceland if you divorce?

At that age and with WW travelling I’m guessing joint custody. If you leave Iceland would the kids go too?

What about family members? What does MIL and FIL say?

What about joint friends?

A great sentence to tell WW is:

“I have realized that sharing you is worse than losing you. I have realized that I CAN and WILL survive a divorce but at the moment I love you too much to survive sharing you. Therefore I have to move on IF you force me to share you. This love isn’t unlimited. It will erode over time if not tended to (and that‘s what I’m counting on if you carry on with the affair) and when you see OM. I still think we can reconcile BUT that erodes with each and every time I hear of you sharing yourself with OM.”

You want us to believe your cheater of a wife is different than all the other cheating wives? She is acting just like the majority of cheaters, it's right out of the cheaters hand book. She is going to confront him to get laid and rebuild their bond, she is wanting her own place without divorcing you so she can bang him withot guilt, this is very common here on SI. She hopes that he will accept her and your children and live happy ever after, yet keeping you in the background in case OM doesn't work out. Wake up, you are too close to the situation and can't see what the rest of us see and have seen many times over. She is giving you hope to keep you there, her timing isn't right she is getting her ducks lined up. What harm will talking to his wife do. She knew before you, she may be able to help you, she may have information that may effect your decision. Talk to her, don't make the mistake that so many wished they hadn't made, not talking to the other betrayed spouse sooner. If your wife has doubts, don't let her go to him, seriously man, bad decision. Your handing him your wife and children on a silver platter.

Ozzy,I probably wouldn't print out and show her anything. See everyone in the fog (in this case, you BOTH appear to be in your own fog) thinks that THEIR situation is different, that things that apply to others, don't necessarily apply to their unique situation. I don't think that it would have much impact on her, similar to the way that the wise people here who are trying to help you are not making much headway. Sometimes, we have to travel down the hard road and make our own mistakes.

She is so tangled up in this, that this does seem the only way - by phone would only leaving things hanging, and in a selfish way, I want closure. Yes, she has lied to me in the past, but I have made clear that anything physical would end any chance of our future.

Do you honestly think that given her cheating,love for him, and history of going behind your back will automatically be gone and you'll be able to trust her not to have sex with him again simply because you made it clear that anything physical would end chances with you? You are giving her your blessing to go to him and sadly placing yourself as the second choice if things don't work out with him. From a marriage standpoint, there is absolutely no reason to do this in person. What's to keep her from cheating with someone else in the future if she already knows she can treat you this way and you'll allow it? Do you honestly think that this trip will bring closure where he's concerned? That would be rare indeed. You have to decide whether it is worth it to keep handing her cake while she sits on the fence cake-eating. You mentioned that she's told you everything. Trust me on this fact, they will minimize what really happened and trickle truth, especially in the beginning. If it was me, I'd be checking my info against what the other BS knows and making sure that she in fact does know.

[This message edited by alluringillusion at 9:03 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

I would give her the print out. It can't hurt, she might just see herself in it and any little bit of reality that comes her way might begin to make a dent in the fog.

But, I think your bigger issue is thinking that there won't be physical contact while she is with him. I'm assuming that is a big part of her going to "see" him. I mean, otherwise she could simply move out of your home, spend time by herself trying to figure out what she wants and speak with him over the phone or through e-mail. I think you are naive to think that it won't have an aspect of physicality when they figure things out face to face. That's why I noted that I might not agree to this "vacation" because you're pretty much guaranteed that they will have sex and if that's going to bother you if you decide to reconcile you may want to re-think telling her it's okay to go. You wrote that you are doing this because you selfishly want closure - but have you thought about the possibility that she tells you they did not have sex and then you find out they did?

IMHO the ONLY way to have even the slightest hope it won’t get physical is by letting OMW know your WW is off to the fjords. That way the OMW will set the pressure on OM to keep his longship tethered and maybe even crawl into the cave he hides in.

Why don't you go with her if you think it will inocent, you can wait outside their hotel room. You know why she is going, time to take charge friend.

Dude...you ARE the backup plan. Just like my boyfriend was the backup plan for the OW, when her husband cheated and left her. She went straight for the one she knew always had feelings for her...my man. When the OM finally brushes off your WW for good, she will suddenly be so in love with you, you won't believe your eyes. They always think they are "In love" and "there's a real connection", when in reality it is only the thrill and the butterflies of a fantasy.

Thanks for all the advice, hard as it is to swallow. Special thanks to Bigger, your words made alot of sense.

Well, she´s gone to Norway. Won´t go into details about this, but I feel stronger and clearer on my future.

She sent me long email during the day, trip is awkward and worried about me, need to do this as cannot go on in limbo, need to work out what I want for future.

I replied rationally. One thing I made clear is this excerpt - You come back wanting to be with xx or still not sure of your feelings for him or I find out you have had a physical affair with him while you are over there – you lose me. This is not a threat or a promise but a consequence. And on this one, I will not change my mind on.

You come back and have finished with him – we still have a chance, if you need space, I understand.

I do not want you to move out of the house, but if you are not willing to work on our marriage, this seems to be the only way rather than the limbo we have had.

One thing CRYSTAL clear to me now - no limbo. She has had too much time and next week, I start moving forward with my life.

Did not give her the fog print out, reality is now flooding her.

Her moving out will hit us financially, but in my view if she carries on with OM or is not willing to work on marriage, this is the only option. Maybe I am being too stubborn, but I feel to stay in limbo for 3 months more will only destroy any hope we have (and me).

It will never be an option that she moves to Norway or I move to UK with kids.

Unfortunately Iceland has a very relaxed view to D - same as buying a new car, so her friends and family have not been counselling her, just saying you are a grown up.

Will contact OW, she wants her WH back and I feel we can help each other.

Yes, this is a messed up way to start closure, but for the last three days, I feel I can see a future without uncertainty, I´m making my way out of limbo and prioritising me and my kids before my WW and fixing our marriage.

Me and my boys are going to have a fantastic 4 days - cinema, mini-golf, junk food, beer (me), and come Monday I will know the path I have to take.

I may seem like I am not listening to advice,but trust me, you are all helping me through this. I´m just a bit slow to catch up :)

Well, she´s gone to Norway. Won´t go into details about this, but I feel stronger and clearer on my future.

and

Will contact OW

Dude, contact OMW NOW!

Seriously!

Contact the OM wife BEFORE your WW gets to see him, that will hopefully mean that OMW will contact OM and he just may throw your WW under the bus the minute she gets there!!

Please do this!

Your WW intentions will really come out then.

PR

[This message edited by PhoenixReborn at 4:10 AM, September 9th (Thursday)]

Have you told OM wife that your WW is in Norway?

I really want to stress this: Doing so will be one of the BIGGEST favors you do your wife.

One of my better friends met his present wife when both were married to other people. They divorced and married. They seem to have beaten the odds in the sense that they have been married for about 20 years. So yes – sometimes marriages are doomed and sometimes the OP is the future spouse of a WS. But if that’s the case here you would do your wife a fantastic favor to force the issue with OM. Nothing will force the issue faster than a furious betrayed wife on the phone from Iceland (and from the sound of it the OMW is a strong person – having confronted your wife already).

However the script says that OM will bed your wife even if he really does not see a future with her. If he and/or she thinks they can possibly get away with it they will have sex. Things will be rosy and bright on Saturday but then he will dump her on Sunday. Or he will give her vague promises. He will tell her that once he comes home he will talk to wife about divorce. And then he will postpone because it’s a bad time for the kids. Then he will postpone because….

The world is full of women waiting for the husband to divorce.

Ozzy, each one of us has to do what they think is right and what they can live with and I wish you luck.

Bigger has given you very sound advice because these affairs seem to follow a similar pattern. The OM and your wife, will most probably have sex because they can. I know that's a deal breaker for you, so I'm a little confused on how you will know if this has in fact occurred when your wife returns. Do you think that she will be honest? In any case, OM will most likely hem and haw about committing to your wife and this will probably keep her in limbo. I'm afraid what you will end up with is a WW who had sex with OM (deny it) and then still be in limbo. But, from what you wrote - being in limbo is not an option for you.

I know this is such a complicated mess and we're trying our best to make sense out of nonsense and it's very difficult. Enjoy your boys because in the end you'll see that as long as you have them happy and healthy - that's all that really matter. Hugs to you.

Thanks 2hurt. What you have said crossed my mind, and it is a tough one. Something I will have to assess next week.

While she has been away, she has been texting/phoning me, before bedtime and first thing in the morning. Not reading into this, and please no more comments on this subject as at the moment it only feeds my paranoia (give me the crap next week! :) ).

I´ve been distance and civil, no digs or pressure, just getting the message across that me and the boys are having a great time - movie at home, popcorn, off for a swim now etc.

Called OM´s wife - voicemail, left message. No reply yet.

Decision time next week, and the great thing is that it is not her desicion time like before, but mine depending on how she acts when she comes back. At least this trip has knocked some sense into me and got me to pull my finger out and think of me + boys for a change.

Have a good weekend everyone, and give yourselves a break and try not to think too much about all the crap that has been put upon us. My prayers are with everyone going through this

Ozzie,

One thing that jumped out at me was her saying that 'you were the one that had fought hardest for her'. It seems a very narcissistic statement, a heroine in her own novel, and it made me shudder, I'm afraid, on your behalf at the inferred fantasy lalaland of being 'fought over' by two men that is propping up her sense of self or esteem at the moment.

Are we talking MLC/ empty nest syndrome here that might be better addressed by righting some wrongs in the world and not trying to steal another woman's husband?

10.15pm over here. Feeling very low. Yes, Jim Beam keeping me company (I know, not the best of friends in this situation). Yes, wife is full MLC. Went on an MLC website before coming here, and everyone was CAP LETTERS - FILE NOW. As I mentioned everyone is different, but my WW is well into MLC - my time, my life, need to follow my dreams etc. Hard to understand this is the woman I married who had strong ethics and morals. Hard night, to be expected.

She called at 7.30pm, short answers, I said if you are just going to reply yes and no, no point talking. Felt like 3 months ago when she had PA. txted at 8.30pm - sleep well, boys fine. Took her an hour to txt back - Goodnight my Princes, sleep well.

Feel crap, probably with OM, paranoia getting best of me, probably true, will work out way forward on Monday when she is back.

I have laid out the boundaries and nothing more I can do to stop her if she decides to follow PA again.

Really want to send txt saying "was it fun?" But know I should not stoop to her level.

Laywer on Monday, strictly business in terms of relationship unless she can REALLY convince me otherwise

Sorry for rambling, hard night. I´m sure I´ll be stronger in the morning.

Ozzy:

One of the benefits of this site, Ozzy, is that people aren't here just to sympathize or empathize, although there is plenty of that and it is always welcome. They are also here to give very wise advice--often by way of the infamous 2X4--based upon a whole community of agonizing experience. The cheater's handbook, my friend, is real.

You can, of course, choose not to take the advice because your situation is so "different."

What was said, unanimously, in so many words, is that your situation isn't unique or really different at all.

Ozzy, you HAD to know what your wife's motivations were in going to Norway. The opinion on this thread was unanimous, as far as I can see. You chose to defer to your wife. Big mistake. Why do you torture yourself like this? How is living like this good for your kids?

You've been dealing with this for 8 months? Jesus Christ, Ozzy. I don't know what to say other than read my signature line.

Or, stated differently, don't EVER make someone a priority who considers you an option.