SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"from the emails it seems like something is going on." Well, seems doesn't cut it in my book. If confronting without proof brings on denials and driving an A further underground (which no doubt it would),

The emails snippets you provided for us did not fit the it seems something is going on category, according to my definition of fidelity. I'm not blaming you for reacting slowly, but you doused yourself with water upon reading first email, when you should have been flaming mad and confronted!!!

That said, I still believe that you have enough proof to expose the A.

Whether or not WW thinks it is enough evidence to admit the A is her problem. You do not need her approval or agreement that she overstepped M boundaries and that you will no longer tolerate it.

I read someone's profile the other night, (sorry I can't remember whose it was) but they had all kinds of irrefutable evidence: PI photos, toll receipts, phone records that showed WS was in a different town 100's of miles away from where WS said they were, etc. WS denied all of it, to the end, even though it was all hard evidence.

At some point BS has to know what his/her boundaries are, what they consider infidelity and improper boundaries with OP.

BS has to be willing to get on with life if WS can't or won't confess to violating boundaries, vows, having an A (EA or PA, whatever...) and recommit 100% to repairing damage to M and emotional damage to BS.

You finally accepted WS is really having an A, and you are still in the early/obsession/info gathering stages. That's OK.

ShadowBoxer is right, to some degree. There does come a time when enough is enough (evidence gathering), and it varies from BS to BS. Give ChoppingOnions a bit more wiggle room to decide when he has enough evidence on his own.

If it had been me, I would have confronted with the very first email.

OM: Thanks for the document. Did you attach yourself to it? That would be great, so I can enjoy you!

WW: I wish I could attach myself. Keep an eye for a package in the mail.

OM: Are you coming in the package? P.S. This place is not as fun because you are not here.

WW: I wish. Good night.

Other emails I found discussing movies (including the quality of the sex scenes, nothing explicit though), overseas places he'd like to show her, and so on.

I know, I know, people are going to say that the A would have gone underground. But in my M, FWH would have never spoken that way with someone unless he was already becoming committed to leaving the M (Read my profile). His own conscience is what exposed the A. In his distorted mind, he thought that it would no longer be an A if he D me and M her. We're all different here on SI, and each BS has to consider their own M values and situation.

The next emails are strong evidence that the relationship had already become physical...no panties needed as evidence after reading the emails. Even if they were having phone sex and never touched each other, it is still sexual, and outside the boundaries of a M.

Then:

OM: YOU are the best!

WW: Your YOUs (in your message) turn me on in a big way.

OM: In what way?

WW: In the best possible way. Big smile. Good night.

OM: Please be more descriptive.

WW: Details: My breathing quickens. My temperature rises. My heartbeat rockets. The rest...for later.

OM: LOL! You are really something.

Finally:

WW: I am sad...I am patiently waiting for (our upcoming meeting overseas) so that I can get a big HUG.

OM: That's all you want?!

WW: I always knew you were a mind reader..I will think of more. A big sloppy X.

OM: I could say what I think about you!

WW: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

ChoppingOnions. You don't have to wait for pantie results, but since you paid for it, and had already set your mind on waiting, just follow that plan if you have the patience,and don't go crazy waiting. If you decide you can't wait, the panties might come in useful later anyway to help WW defog.

I do not relish the coming of D-Day, as things will never be the same.

I don't know your wife, but you probably need to prepare yourself for a shitstorm of epic proportions. Whatever happens, everything is and always was your fault. Her rationalization hamster will be unleashed.

Semen found in undies while husband is home hundreds of miles away is irrefutable proof of infidelity. There will be no TT from that!!

Chopped,

If you only need to confront HER then you have enough. You only need to be convinced yourself. That’s all. You can then confront her and simply tell her that you KNOW. This is not a court. You ONLY need to believe it yourself. In fact – if YOU believe you can lie to her: This is actually quite common and effective. You simply say you got a phone call from her office; one of the staff was distressed and had the ethics to inform you.

But that won’t help regarding the OMW or WW work – if you need that. If she denies the affair and you go and phone OMW and the HR dept you will be written off as a nut.

I know how big companies think. They WILL try to silence the affair and that might be OK for you. Reprimanding and/or dismissing people for ethical breaks that are outside the office per se is not condoned in the business world. Yes – I know, office time, office resources… all that. But if OM is a VP and has no direct influence (or can be seen to have indirect influence) over WW then HR will try to let things lie.

What you want to achieve from work exposure is that there is office pressure on them to keep apart. If the HR department isn’t convinced they will not want to have ANY part in this. If OM is a VP then odds are high that either company won’t take any action or WW will be “downsized” within 3 months – simply to remove the problem. If however you have proof (even if it’s not legal quality proof) and you share this with the HR department… the pressure is on OM and any change in your WW status can lead to a lawsuit.

OK – Not all companies have any direct policy regarding inter-office relationships but there is a very clear point of view in job-related legal cases that a manager has more responsibilities than those lower in the food-chain. So if you have good-enough evidence that makes it hard for OM and WW to deny the affair you have the support of work to end the affair.

Your OM would have to be extremely infatuated with your WW if he doesn’t break contact after a quiet talk with the CEO where he is warned to keep away from WW.

Honestly that’s the best you can hope for. Unless they are working for a company that has written ethical codes directly banning infidelity and/or office romances and clearly stipulates that this can lead to dismissal then that’s all you can hope for. And frankly that’s enough. We aren’t exposing to the company to get OM fired – we are exposing to end the affair.

Regarding OMW. You need enough AT LEAST so she will confront her husband. No – no matter how the present crop of e-mails sound they are not enough.

No – you won’t get dna from OM. OMW will not want to give you dna. Doing so will threaten her income. Open up for litigation.

Frankly I think the sperm kit is money wasted. So what if it turns out to be sperm? Did you two have sex recently? She could claim it was from you. Could claim it was a dirty thong that she took by mistake. Even if she did admit to an affair she could claim the sperm was from Guido the doorman to protect her OM. And what if the kit comes back negative? Does that mean there is no affair?

As long as you have the energy and strength I strongly suggest you wait and have more concrete proof. If however you don’t feel a need to expose at work or tell OMW then don’t wait. Confront with what you got and what you make up.

Alternatively, lie and tell that someone called you about her A. Don't say anything about e-mails, etc.

She'll deny but she will probably try to contact OM ASAP.

I think the plan is quite clear in my mind if the lab test proves the PE. It's less clear if it comes back negative.

My gut tells me it's going to be positive based on the circumstances -- the nighty, withholding the one suspicious pair of underwear from her suitcase on her return, traces of blood in the underwear (her period just started yesterday), the questionable checkmate, etc.

Need to prepare myself for and accept whatever the result is.

BTW, the lab guy was super helpful, professional, and gave me several options. I opted for the infidelity/DNA panel (semen/sperm presence analysis along with DNA analysis, if positive). If the test comes back positive, I can later bring a DNA sample to crossmatch it. They said they can use chewing gum, toothbrush, hair follicles (with roots), cigarette butts, used kleenex, dental floss, a razor, etc.

If OM's W wants to submit something later, she'll have that option indefinitely.

Either way try not to tell her about e-mail spying and VAR. In that way you can caught her contacting or trying to contact OM after your big discussion.

Bigger, I didn't see your post until after my last submission.

I'm aware that I only need proof for myself. I feel quite strongly that without that proof, WW would deny, deny, deny.

I don't really care about exposing anything to her company. I will say that doing so could affect their project, which very highly depends on ethical practices, in a way similar to how research papers require certain standards for publishing.

I have been very careful so far, and I will continue to be so. It's probably the perfectionist in me, but I tend to look at all angles and make sure the "i's" are dotted and the "t's" are crossed before proceeding.

I'm sure I will have a clear plan before confrontation when it comes to dealing with WW, her work, OM, and OM's W.

BTW, thank you all again for your support and input. A week ago I was adrift without a paddle. While things are still hell, I have much more clarity than I did before. Slow and steady progress beats out taking risky chances. I will continue to hold my cards close for now, at least until the lab result comes back.

I have to say I've been fascinated by this from the beginning :-(

I would not have your patience in waiting this out. When my husband made his first and only tiniest mistake, I pounced like a lion. That is my nature. And that, even tho I never ever would have thought it possible!

My concern is for you and your D. The feelings you have now are nothing compared to when you find out the truth. Sometimes, you will wish you never known.

I just have one suggestion, if you do discover this all to be a horrible truth, please send your daughter to a safe place for a few days (or longer) when you confront her. Don't try to do it while she is in the house or sleeping nearby.

And, if you do have proof, you will need *at least* a few days without your D around to witness the horror.

I am so sorry for your family. :-(

I feel quite strongly that without that proof, WW would deny, deny, deny.

You are a very wise man. I think you are doing absolutely the right thing by getting undeniable evidence.

I found romantic cards and notes from the OW. I confronted and was told that they were unwanted advances from a co-worker. I was told that my WH had told the OW that he was happily married and that the OW had continued to send him cards. I had A evidence that only idiots would not believe, but my WH continued to deny, deny, deny. The best evidence was taped phone conversations between WH and OW - the voices were undeniable. Until that point, it was a living hell of crazy denials. In hindsight, I would want unrefutable, rock/hard solid proof. You are doing the right thing.

Onions -

Enchantress just gave you the best advice regarding your daughter. Make sure she is not in the house when you decide to confront your wife. Arrange for her to spend a few days with grandparents, or another family member.

When I confronted my husband, I first made arrangements to have them spend a few days at a family members' house.

Confronting your wife is going to be very traumatic and very emotional for both of you. Your daughter should not be exposed to any of that. I can tell from everything you have said about her in your posts that she is your number one priority, so make sure you do this to protect her.

First off I wanted to say that I'm glad to see Bigger still here and laying out some sound, solid advice.

I'll say this, though. The last thing I want to be spending my time on is being a fucking PI. I have better things to do. My time off was intended to be temporary, mostly for her benefit, and for D's benefit. I didn't spend a decade of postgraduate training to be Mr. Mom.

All I wanted to hear man. Seriously. Don't just say it. BE it.

This isn't HER marriage. It's YOUR marriage. It's sacred because you PROTECT it. I know you are in a weird spot right now. Believe me, I feel ya. Kids will make you do the craziest things.

Get your proof if that is what you want, but realize that you are a strong, successful man and will be your daughter's father whether you are married to her mom or not.

I know about love and I know about trust. And, I'm sorry but you are wrong. It only takes one (sucker) to believe in trust.

It amazes me to this day...reading these just found out posts....about how married couples DON'T know passwords, DON'T know bank account activity, DON'T know who their loved one is having lunch with. Make no mistake, a "work" lunch is a DATE.

You will see all this eventually, but like i said before....I hope this all amounts to nothing.

What happens when the panties return with no semen?

Going to pursue another avenue of investigation? Ya, you will because you have to know the truth.

Your wife is a grown woman and is responsible for her own decisions. You should be too. That's why I say be proactive. Create an environment within the marriage that she WANTS to come home to. You can do this without even confronting. Subtly remind her WHO YOU ARE, what's at stake, bring the family to the forefront.

I'm so sorry for coming on so strong, but after 8 pages of "ya, we support you" I just want to actually help you man.

Step back, revisualize, reorganize, reconsider. This is YOUR life too.

I made my choices and I live with them everyday. three kids under 8 years old is alot more to consider than just one. No excuses here, just some facts.

I stick by my statement that love and trust is a choice. Blind choice? maybe...but once it's tested, your vision becomes alot more clear and your relationship will either grow from it...or be destroyed.

Just read through this thread.

Chopping Onions, I think you're doing a great job and an intelligent one by waiting for unquestionable proof.

I tilted my hand too early and ended up living through a yar of sheer hell, my stbx taking the affair underground, and the lies and false hope were terrifically hurtful to me.

I wish, in retrospect, I had been able to keep my big mouth shut and wait for definitive proof.

I find it really nasty of her to profit in her career from your SAHD status and then promptly stab you in the back for it. The same thing happened to me and it made me lose all respect for my stbx.

Good luck to you.

Today, we talked for a long time on the phone. I don't think I want her to know that I know yet, but I did say to her that I'm feeling so down because of the way she's been towards me in the past year, and that I feel our lines of communication have closed. I sensed a significant amount of guilt on her part. She became quite apologetic, even tearful, and said that when she returns she will work harder to be a better wife. I did ask her if her lack of affection toward me was the result of "anything else" I needed to know about. There was what seemed to be stunned silence for a moment. Then a denial. She's been calling me every few hours since then to check on me, not typical.

Has this been addressed in any way since her return?

Has this been addressed in any way since her return?

Well, as far as discussing "anything else I should know", no. I mentioned in another post that I backed off the questioning so as to not raise any further suspicion.

As for the "being a better wife" part, she was pretty sick with a virus for several days, so it was generally me being the better husband and taking care of her and D.

Now that she's recovered, she has been more affectionate, and wanting to do more "family stuff" like movie night. We've had some long talks, not so much about us, but just life in general. She's backed way off the "get a job" rants. She's said, "I love you" more often than usual.

It's a bit weird though. She seems more despondent overall. She's attentive and seems to be happy when interacting with D and me, but during the other times she seems more reflective or resigned or something.

I'm wondering if she's picked up on my attempts to gain access to her phone. When you make an attempt at the access code, it keeps track and shows how many attempts since the last log-in. I never try more than one at a time (it jostling in a handbag with a few keys pressed can log an "attempt", plus D plays with it occasionally), but it's possible she may be paying more attention. Tonight, instead of the locked phone at the bedside, it was OFF and left in her purse in the kitchen. Very uncharacteristic.

I am definitely backing off this approach for now.

I did find out that she arranged to have some bottles of wine from overseas sent to him at his office on the last day of her trip. She never mentioned it to me. This, of course, could be seen as simply a friendly gesture among business colleagues, but it just adds to the pattern of shit I'm dealing with.

I am curious, you say the behavior is uncharacteristic. Is this strictly on her attitude during the A? What I am getting at is, with relation to prior affair behavior....there is a pattern. Is this falling back more in line with that or is a complete shift to a 3rd pattern?

Actually – big office ethics wise – sending bottles of wine up the tree isn’t accepted behavior.

Well – once again it’s the superior/staff issue. A manager sending someone bellow him in the chain of authority a bottle of wine (or other acceptable gift) is fine. That can be explained as a reward for good work.

As a manager I sometimes send members of my team gifts: typical gifts are a bottle of wine (exceptionally good work or effort), dinner for two at a good restaurant (usually if the person has put in a lot of hours – the logic being his wife/husband has also made a sacrifice so rewarding both makes sense) or tickets to a movie (thought of as a reward for the whole family). I have never gotten a reward form my staff but I have gotten rewards from MY superiors.

What’s positive for you in your evidence gathering is that the OM – as the superior – SHOULD return the wine with a note thanking for it but not being able to accept it. If he had a clear business only relationship with WW this would be what he should do. This coupled with the e-mails is making it hard for him to deny an inappropriate relationship.

Once again – not proof of an affair but a very VERY red flag. If I were to fall back to my cop days: Not enough evidence to convince a jury but enough for a judge to allow detention.

could be a friendly gesture. Did you or your D get any friendly gestures?

I am curious, you say the behavior is uncharacteristic. Is this strictly on her attitude during the A? What I am getting at is, with relation to prior affair behavior....there is a pattern. Is this falling back more in line with that or is a complete shift to a 3rd pattern?

I was only referring to the fact that her cell phone was completely off (as opposed to on at the bedside) as uncharacteristic. It's only happened last night in recent memory. Of course, before a couple of weeks ago, I wasn't really paying that close attention. It could be completely work related for all I know.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but if she actually turns it off I believe you can retrieve what I think is called a SIM CARD or SD. If you have a reader you can then get everything that's on that phone, maybe even deleted texts? But again, some young person with much more experience would be best for that info.