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Actually – big office ethics wise – sending bottles of wine up the tree isn’t accepted behavior.

Again, it's not so much up the tree (technically it is, but he's not her direct supervisor). I can't be too specific, other than their work R is largely collaborative. In the context of her business, this could possibly be seen as acceptable. It may be that the bottles are intended for not just him, but rather his group.

Additionally, WW is extremely likable and giving. She's known to go on trips and bring gifts back for everyone from the big boss on down to the janitor (seriously). She's very generous and charismatic, someone that strangers will tell her their life story within 5 minutes of meeting her (also seriously).

There's also the fact that the fruits of her project may make a great deal of money for her company (we're talking lots of zeros).

I also discovered yesterday that this project is not exactly as finished as I thought, and will continue at least until the end of the year (ARGH!)

Could be a friendly gesture. Did you or your D get any friendly gestures?

Yes, D got a gift from someone in his group. These things are not too unusual, so I'm not putting too much stock in the wine thing. Just adding context to the overall picture.

Probsbly s goofd thing that the project continues. You need her to have ongoing opportunities to enable you to continue investigating.

be patient. This stuff is cumulative.

BTW, when I saw the post where your wife's e-mails and his responses were laid out in sequence, I had absolutely no doubt that she is cheating. I cannot imagine any explanation for e-mails with that type of content except for cheating.

Undoubtedly, however, if you confront her with them, you will get some absurd explanation that she will cling to ferociuosly.

And seeing someone reasonably bright put forth such absurd explanations does make one wonder, despite the absurdity. Weird how it works:"that explanation is so absurd, maybe it is true."

Now that she's recovered,

she has been more affectionate, and wanting to do more "family stuff" like movie night. We've had some long talks, not so much about us, but just life in general. She's backed way off the "get a job" rants. She's said, "I love you" more often than usual.

CO,

I don't want to piss on your fire, but sudden changes in attitude would make me even more suspicious.

You have already described her as being meticulous and planning.

I see this change as her recognizing that you might be suspicious from your previous emails or talks, and she is only 'putting out that fire', so to speak.

Throw you a few crumbs so you'll quit looking.

Hell, my FWW would come home and fuck my brains out after she emailed OM 3 times in a day and talked to him for an hour on the phone.

Sometimes it was out of guilt - but other times if I didn't act perturbed at her being late, etc.. she did nothing....

Look at it logically:

What has happened in the past few days for her to fall so madly in love with you again? Nothing? Then there's your answer.

Did she suddenly decide the OM is a POS?

Maybe - but not likely.

Just saying - take it all with a grain of salt and

KEEP LOOKING..

[This message edited by stillnpain at 12:49 PM, April 11th (Monday)]

Hi there! I have been out of town and just saw your thread and would first say how sorry I am for you and then would like to say thank God you found this site. It literally saved my life 3 years ago, and while my M is still in the crapper, I have found much love and support here. You are getting that now.

It sounds to me like you are doing everything right. The MOW/coworker my WH had his affair with was a touchy/feely sort who apparently hugs everyone at the drop of a hat. (His excuse for the constant perfume on his clothes.) I was told so many times what a wonderful person she was, under appreciated, abused by her BH. So, I too needed full proof before I could confront the BH. I flat out asked my WH and he kept denying and let's just say followed the playbook by making me feel guilty and like a loser for even suspecting it.

So, point is, you are doing the right thing by getting absolute proof before proceeding. A word though about revealing your sources to the BW. When I first phoned BH, he was totally surprised (thought his marriage was perfect) and asked me for proof. I met him at their condo, while WH and MOW were traveling, and gave him copies of company emails I intercepted via keylogger from our home computer. He asked to make copies, which I obliged, as I knew he needed proof as well.

Well, to my surprise, he laid all these in MOW's lap as soon as they returned and she ran them right into WH's office first thing. My source was busted. I KNOW this is what I had to do, but unfortunately as the BH felt he had to give his wife the opportunity to explain herself, he gave it all to her. Her excuse was that I was crazy and a computer genius who made it all up, including the affair.

Needless to say, WH never used our home computer after that for company email. I did confront him with some proof via FedEx while they were away and told him I had proof, but now he knew how I knew everything.

He came back home to our marriage, probably as MOW refused to leave her $ BH for my WH, but as they work together still, the fantasy lives on. Especially now, as her BH has had enough of her lies and manipulation, he is divorcing her, my life will continue to be hell.

Rambling here I know, but I think, even though you are not worried about your WW losing her job, for your own sanity, insist that she change jobs so that she never have contact with this man again. Even our MC told me that I could never compete with the fantasy of an affair (not that I intended to). As long as your WW can have any contact with this man in any fashion, you are at risk of losing your sanity and never being able to trust or believe her.

Also, just wanted to point out that the BW is probably going to believe her WH; she will WANT to believe that he is not capable of an A and he will do everything to convince her that your WW and you are just crazy. Be very factual with her and try to keep emotion out of your conversation with her as much as possible. She will be devastated, even if she manages to keep in control, and you just never know how she will react. It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that this would not be her WH's first affair; he sounds capable of being a serial cheater due to his work schedule. If you can expose this man and hang him, power to you! If I exposed my WH and MOW to HR, undoubtedly WH would be the one to be fired and it would have been detrimental to our family.

Hang in there; be strong. I still think it is good advice to seek the advice of an attorney just to test the waters. Knowledge is power.

I know you want to R with your wife and I applaud you for that. It is a tough road ahead regardless. Take care; we are here for you.

It's a bit weird though. She seems more despondent overall. She's attentive and seems to be happy when interacting with D and me, but during the other times she seems more reflective or resigned or something.

Have to agree with Stillnpain about the sudden behavior changes. My XWGF had a sudden change or heart when I had taken her out for lunch for because I thought she was under 'stress'.

She broke down inexplicably and started telling me what a great guy I was and how she was going to be a better gf. Sure she wasn't treating my great at the time, but nothing to bring about that sort of reaction.

I asked if her kids where getting her down, she had said they where. Yet, they where the best behaved that they have ever been since I first met her.

It could indeed be guilt beginning to get the better of her, especially with you being so good to her recently.

I feel for you CO's, I really do. I know how exhausting 'trying to figure out the truth' is. I have no advice but I will say you sound like you are an incredibly strong person and I sincerely wish you all the best... under the circumstances.

Just a thought, but is it possible to set up IC for yourself without arousing suspicion? It can't hurt and I can't help thinking you may have a bit of a 'crash' when things come to a head, although I may be wrong... I needed it but I wasn't anywhere near as strong as you sound

CO: You have enough proof now. You don't have to share any of it with the WW when you confront her. In fact, you always want to keep at least a few things up your sleeve for later verification. A common issue is BSes that lay all their cards out on the table and then get TT'd to death or gaslighted.

Just tell her you know what is going on with the OM, and that until she admits everything that is going on to you, that you will <INSERT CONSEQUENCE HERE>. If she wants to know what you know, tell her that it only means anything if she tells you - and that if you tell her what you know, then you know that is all she'll ever admit to.

Like Bigger said - its not a court of law. You don't have to prove to her that you know. You know what she is/has been up to. She knows what she is/has been up to. When you start to actually execute on consequences, she will realize that her gig is up, and she can't keep carrying on just because you won't tell her everything you've found out.

I totally fucked that up when I confronted my WS...I felt that I had to prove to her that I knew. It wasn't until a later confrontation where I refused to tell her what I knew - where I actually learned something new! I told her "You need to come home from work and tell me everything, because I just found out something that I am willing to end the relationship over" She kept asking me what it was. I kept refusing to tell her. We played guessing games for a bit, and then a major item came up (that she still had a Bat-phone - which she previously told me she had thrown away). What I had actually uncovered was that a friend of hers was covering for her and knew that OM was coming to town...which she never came up with on her own, and swears she did not think it was important/forgot about it.

She's acting TOO NICE if you ask me. Well, that depends on her usual demeanor, I guess. Nonetheless, I don't think she's corresponding with ALL the participants of this project in this manner, right? Man, I was blindsided by my wife, but what you're going through is strait torture- Is she?; Isn't she? I don't think I'd be able to contain my frustration. I wouldn't be able to hide my contempt for the situation no matter how much proof I really had. You are a very patient and meticulous man. I tip my hat to you sir for keeping your composure.

OK, definitely she's being weird about her phone. Again, not at the bedside tonight. And not in her purse this time. Other than where it's charged, there are no other typical places it would be. Bizarro. Thought about calling it, but I don't really care.

I've been locked out of email (WW had required scheduled PW change at work, I knew it was coming). So I'm back in the dark again. #$@&!

She's again somewhat introspective again today. Maybe she sees the writing on the wall, I dunno.

I love her, but I'm so angry at this betrayal behavior that's been going on for so long under my nose -- jeopardizing everything that we've put our lives into for 15+ years, not to even mention our daughter, extended family, friends, her work, everything.

Well, 3 to 7 business days from now, I hope I've got something more definitive.

She knows the wrong thong went missing. She won't bring it up, though; "magic thinking," again.

She's again somewhat introspective again today. Maybe she sees the writing on the wall, I dunno

I saw this exact behavior from my fWW during her EA. I've never seen her act that way before and wrote it off because at the time I didn't know about the EA. Now that I look back on it, I realize she was thinking/missing the OM.

Of course I can't say that is what your WW is doing, but it could be one possible explanation for that particular behavior. Coupled with the fact that your WW just got back from a trip where she most likely had sex with OM, or at the very least spent a lot of time with him, its a possibility that she is thinking about him and or missing him.

I would say that she now definitely suspects that you have been on her cell phone, hence the reason she is hiding it. She may think that you suspect now. If anything, she is securing her lines of communication with her OM. Why hide her business cell phone from you if she has nothing to hide. They are probably using BB Messenger to communicate. If only you had the chance to load Mobistealth on it.

This all shows how very meticulate she is about hiding contact with OM. They are definitely deep underground with this. Sorry that you are in this difficult situation.

[This message edited by lordmayhem at 4:19 AM, April 12th (Tuesday)]

Dear CO,

This:

Now that I look back on it, I realize she was thinking/missing the OM.

It is a definite possibility. After my FWH confessed his A and swore NC, he kept texting and talking to Gutter Skank, without my knowledge. He even texted her from our bed at night...

I remember one evening when I thought we were in R, he sat at the table in the restaurant with this idiotic dreamy look in his eyes, and I asked him what he was thinking. He said, "I wonder what she is doing tonight..." I felt like kicking him in the face! It was his foggy period, which was absolutely agonizing for me. Thankfully, he has emerged from it a better man. He cannot believe how terrible his behavior was, much of it he does not even remember.

It is possible that your wife is experiencing withdrawal from her fantasy garbage, and my guess is that she is totally convinced that she has done a perfect snowjob on you. Brace yourself, because the fog is very painful. But it is also part of the fantasy, and agonizing for the betrayed spouse. If you can push her to the other side of the fog and you can remember that the fog speaks very cruelly, hopefully you will be okay.

Good luck to you, I am praying for you.

OK, definitely she's being weird about her phone. Again, not at the bedside tonight. And not in her purse this time. Other than where it's charged, there are no other typical places it would be.

She hides it when it is being charged??

You dont know where it is - most of the time??

She never leaves it lying around??

Practically "sleeps" with it???

On it "late at nite, or early in the mornings"???

Take a call - then leaves the room??? Alot???

Does she text more that any 6 jr. high kids???

Take the cell to the bathroom with her?? Several times a day???

Is she secretive with this cell phone???

Is it frequently "off" or set on vibrate???

Calls "always" deleted??? Call logs "always" cleared???

And - this is the big one...Does she FREAK if you even get near it????

The cell phone patterns are what "got my wife" busted......

Good luck bro....

Bufffalo

She knows something is up. She's trying to hide her tracks. You need to be just as smart as she is, dude. You need to cover your tracks as well.

I love her, but I'm so angry at this betrayal behavior that's been going on for so long under my nose -- jeopardizing everything that we've put our lives into for 15+ years, not to even mention our daughter, extended family, friends, her work, everything.

You are in a good spot, ChoppingOnions....very sane, very honest. Stay there, keep doing what WW's choices are forcing you to do. A M takes two people....

OK, looks like the phone was at the bedside last night. I didn't see it when she went to bed. My error.

Don't anyone worry about "pissing in my fire" about her recent evident attitude change. I welcome your opinions. I wasn't thinking that this is suddenly an apologetic WW wanting to amend her ways, particularly after her recent apparent paranoia about her phone. Seems more like a guilty party wanting to hide the evidence.

It would appear that her desire to keep her A going and keep it undercover (apparently knowing that I might be on to her) means more to her than her husband and family. And that sucks.

Chopping Onions,

I've been following your thread. Actually stayed up until the wee hours of the night reading it last night, and I want to add my two cents.

I think your situation has garnered so much attention from the SI community because we all wish we had done things differently at this stage in the game -- or more precisely, that we'd had the opportunity to do so. And the "tough love" you're getting from some of the members to essentially "grow a pair," though harsh, is good advice.

Keep in mind, this affair business is like drug addiction (truly). The excitement of a new relationship, whether an A or a legitimate relationship, is intoxicating and addictive. I think it's the reason most A's occur. The person is going along, living their normal, married life (which may have become stale, or boring, or filled with challenges), and then suddenly there's the excitement of the OP -- the flirting, attention, sex. It's a total non-reality that's not worth the devastation and pain it will create, but nonetheless, it's ADDICTIVE. I'm telling you this because the advice from the other posters to be prepared (or at least make her think you're prepared) to walk away from it all may be your only real chance at saving your marriage. Unless she is slapped upside the face with the very real possibility of losing you, she may not get her head on straight.

Now, with that said, I want to offer some words of comfort. At this point, you're in shock that this could possibly occur in your marriage. You're in shock that she could do this to you. You probably don't think very highly of her right now or your chances for salvaging a good life from this heap of ugly rubble. And you're hurting beyond belief (though, as others have said, when you actually have proof, what you're feeling now won't compare). But I want to tell you that

[This message edited by bootstraps at 10:46 AM, April 12th (Tuesday)]

Deleted. Duplicate post.

[This message edited by bootstraps at 10:46 AM, April 12th (Tuesday)]

Hmmm. . . . don't know what I hit, but my reply posted before I was finished.

What I want to tell you is that you AND your marriage can survive. And, this may seem odd coming from a BS, I want you to realize that although what your WW is doing is despicable, it doesn't mean she's a bad person. There a book that I actually never read, but the title has always stuck with me. It's something like, "When Good People Do Bad Things." Thinking about that title has always reminded me that we're all just a bunch of flawed human beings. An A does not mean your wife has suddenly become a gutter skank (I think someone on this board referred to the OW in those terms). And it DOESN'T mean she doesn't love you. It just means she has made some really poor decisions. Your latest comment this morning about how much is sucks that she now seems to be more concerned about keeping her A underground than she is about you or your daughter saddened me. Please keep in mind, this A business brings out the worst in a WS. It isn't necessarily reflective of their overall character under normal circumstances. It's part of the addiction.

Anyway, we all know this whole mess is utterly devastating, and we're here for you.

Stay strong. Get tough with her. But don't lose hope or completely wall off your heart to her. How she handles things once it's out in the open will tell you a lot (though it may take awhile for the fog to clear). You both sound like quality people. You WILL survive this.

One more thing that struck me as I was reading the texts between your W and the OM. It doesn't sound like they are emotionally close at all. It sounds very much like just a flirty, physical thing at this point. So maybe it won't be too hard for her to "detox." In fact, your take on her attitude may be off. Her preoccupation may have more to do with her realization that she's risking her entire family life and marriage for . . . what? Nothing.

I know others here might blast me for being overly understanding or not tough enough. I just want you to be able (maybe only a wee bit) to stand back and take in the bigger picture. You can survive this, and you and your wife can come out the other side of this stronger. It will be difficult (horribly difficult), but you can do it.

Love and good thoughts to you.

P.S. Don't know why my previous, incomplete post sent or why it showed up as a duplicate. Sorry for that.

Yes, I agree. The infantile exchanges between them would seem toindicate a lack of true emotional connection. That is good, becuse emotionally invested WWs seldom come back. A way lower % of marriages with WWs recover than those with WHs becuases of this emotional investment deal being more common with cheating women.

I also agree that your wife may not be evil incarnate. But, if she does not stop this and show remorse and make amends, perhaps dur to pride or some other character flawy, the damage remains just as great as if whe were Saddam or Stalin.