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CO,

I still have these Q's which you haven't answered:

Onions, is intercourse your line in the sand?

and

what are you willing to endure and become before you decide WW has violated M enough for you to draw a line in the sand and give her a chance to redeem herself before she completely destroys your M?

I would think you would want the A to stop before more damage is done to M, but you seem perfectly fine waiting and watching.

What kind of evidence do you want? Photos of them having sex? To catch them in the act yourself? A positive semen test? To get that kind of evidence could potentially take a long time, with a lot more damage being done to the M, not to mention the financial cost.

The following quote is from "What does this Mean" by an old time SIer SerJR, which has been reposted by ThriveNotSurvive under the Thread Name "Great Posts for Newbies to Read" which is found in JFO. (bold is added by me for emphasis)

4) Know when you know enough.

There's a rule of thumb called the "40/70 rule" which refers to both the amount of information that you have found and the probability that you are making the right decision with that amount. If you have less than 40% you should seek more... you may be running under reckless assumptions and be taking unforeseen risks. But the increments of information necessary to guarantee greater-than 70% are increasingly difficult to obtain, yield rapidly diminishing returns in terms of accuracy, usefulness, and invested resources, and are often counterproductive because they lead to slow decisions and analysis paralysis. Once the information is within that 40%-70% range you can most likely go with your gut and be right.

It is your decision to know when you have enough information. Your dilemma regarding "how much" evidence is not a new one, and has been discussed repeatedly by others here here on your thread and by others in the past who have BTDT.

I'm wondering if you are not still in some stage of denial or fear, because you keep suggesting her emails are not enough (not that bad?), are pseudo professional, etc.

suggestive comments disguised as pseudo-professional emails

I haven't read one SIer here who thinks any of those emails you posted were pseudo-professional. The only thing professional about them is that they were sent via the company email. I promise, if one of their collegues ran across those emails, the rumors would fly in the office, regarding your W and OM.

I'm not trying to be mean to you, CO, but your M is at stake here, and you are standing by watching it implode, saying you "need more evidence" before you even try to put a stop to it. I promise you, every single thing that happens in the A is something you, YOU, will have to recover from later. Every email, word, gift, secret foreign hideaway, exciting place they visit and eat, new sexy clothes, sexual liason, new sexual position, same sex partner, group sex, wherever their sexual experiments take them etc. You could have shortened the list for yourself already, yet you stand by and watch it grow, allowing your personal road to recovery to get longer and more pitted.

I agree with HurtButHopeful, you have enough evidence.

The emails are proof. Period.

Good luck...we are all here for you.

CO, I can certainly understand your need to be patient. You do NOT want to be TT'd, and have her minimize and gaslight you. You've been here long enough to read how your WW will only admit to what you know, and that's all. She will DENY the rest.

And by the way she is extremely meticulous about the A, it shows that she is very devious. Don't let anyone push you into confronting too early. At this point, those email, while highly inappropriate, can be minimized because as others have noted, including Bigger, she has been extremely careful with her wording. She and OM have taken great pains to keep this deep underground. And when the A is this deep underground, the more irrefutable evidence, the better.

[This message edited by lordmayhem at 5:48 AM, May 1st (Sunday)]

Onions, is intercourse your line in the sand?

I'm not sure what you mean by line in the sand...for behavior I find unacceptable, for confrontation, for divorce? I don't find the behavior she's shown in her emails in any way acceptable. But I have no proof beyond what is in those few emails I have, which are full of innuendo but little substance.

I've been following her email conversations. Since she returned from her trip, there have been exactly two emails from each of them. One from her was congratulating him on something work related, and the other was a short message something to the effect of "this is what I've been doing in my life since the trip, blah, blah, blah.". The emails suggest that they have not at all corresponded otherwise since that trip 3 weeks ago.

His emails are equally non-suspicious, the worst being him saying that he always has a compliment about her when running into a colleague, that he's looking forward to tasting the previously mentioned wine, and that he hopes she's in his region soon. These could just as easily be a common conversation between two business colleagues as much as it could be between two lovers disguising their conversation in business talk and friendly banter.

The VAR has turned up nothing. Her personal email, nothing. FB, everything else, clean.

If she has knowledge of this thread and is accessing SI (which I doubt very much), it's remotely possible that these emails could be a decoy for other activity. But she's 100% not accessing it from her phone or at home.

what are you willing to endure and become before you decide WW has violated M enough for you to draw a line in the sand and give her a chance to redeem herself before she completely destroys your M?

That's a bit of a convoluted question, but I think I get your drift and I'll try to answer. I think my comment above explains the context a little. Right now, we have WW and OM several time zones away from each other, with what would appear to be fairly infrequent contact, (and nothing terribly incriminating in that contact), and no near-future plans for being anywhere near each other. This could signal several things. It could be that they once had an inappropriate relationship that has now transformed back to strictly business. It could mean that it's an ongoing inappropriate relationship of opportunity that only maybe gets physical when they have the infrequent chance. It could mean a full blown EA that's very well hidden using other means of communication at work that I'm not aware of. I could probably come up with a few other scenarios, both legitimate and illegitimate. Can you tell which one of these it is? If I can't, then no one on SI is going to be able to, no matter how strong their opinion. She spent a shopping day in another city before reaching her final destination on her trip, and OM was definitely not there. Could there be someone else, an old flame? Hell, I doubt it, but I really have no idea. My point is, I'm definitely not anywhere near hitting the 40/70% rule.

While I think I know my wife and I don't think she'd be able to easily wiggle her way out of explaining these emails, there's a ton of uncertainty about the situation. Sure, it's possible she might come clean. But it's also more possible that she tries to sweep it all under the rug, explain it away, or some thing that I haven't even thought of.

I've seen one picture of OM once in my searching (sadly I didn't save it, now can't find it again)...he's older, bald, and in no way what I would consider attractive (sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone). She might just laugh and say, "Him‽‽ Why would I have an affair with HIM‽‽‽" I said before, she's very intelligent, and creative.

I definitely am not hoping to sit and allow my marriage to implode by doing (or not doing) what I am now. But I'm at a disadvantage because I have no idea how far down the rabbit hole goes.

Maybe my posts come across as too analytical, and that's why many people seem to think that I'm too much in control, detached, or trying to let her "hang herself". I'll admit I'm a rational/logical person. I'm also pretty a pretty emotional, creative, feeling kind of guy. It very likely doesn't come across from the keyboard.

Anyway, I appreciate you pushing my buttons, so to speak. It helps to see all points of view.

Off topic, but why is the text box for submitting posts only 30 characters wide?? I'm sure there must be a way to fix that.

CO, does she have her own office? If so, she might have that as her safe haven for conducting the A. I wouldn't put it past her about keeping her secret cell phone there if she has one.

Lordmayhem, yes, she has her own office. I suspect it's a safe haven of some sort. Since they are business partners, she doesn't even need a secret cell phone. The work phone I'm sure suits fine.

CO, I certainly understand your need to wait and gather. I'm not sure why so many others seem to be pushing you to confront. I'm starting to think the suspense just may be too much for some.

In reality, if you confront with your current evidence and she minimizes or gaslights, you will be faced with a much bigger dilemma. You will have to decide to either remain in a marriage where you have little to no trust left or to leave a marriage that may have a very good chance at R.

I don't envy your position and I would hope that if I found myself in your position I would handle it in exactly the same way.

[This message edited by hardtimesinlife at 8:37 AM, May 1st (Sunday)]

She might just laugh and say, "Him‽‽ Why would I have an affair with HIM‽‽‽" I said before, she's very intelligent, and creative.

No creativity necessary for that brush off. Been used millions of times for thousands of years.

All things come to those who wait.

When was the last time the two of you made love? Did you noticed anything amiss the last time you were physically intimate with her?

I ask these questions because seldom are women able to compartmentalize love from sex. Having sex with her husband is usually sporadic and non-passionate. If your WW is indeed having a PA during her business trips, her behavior towards sex with you just might show.

My WW claims that during the affair we had more and better sex, as though I should be thankful. Instead it made my skin crawl to hear that.

I doubt you could generalize about that either way. I think some WSs shut down, some over-compensate, some actually get turned on more by BS (my WW's claim..yuck), some simply consciously try to change nothing so as to not arouse suspicion.

[This message edited by Feb 8, 2011 at 12:06 PM, May 1st (Sunday)]

People often ask, why collect evidence if you know enough to be convinced in your own mind?

It's true, one can take a strong stance in the face of gas lighting: you just say, "I _know_, and it's a deal breaker" and take action.

It's also true that snooping can become its own twisted end unto itself if you stick at it long enough.

So why continue if you're sure or art least know "enough"? I view it as the BS doing the WS a gigantic favor: by hitting them with sufficient undeniable evidence, there's a chance of short-circuiting that whole ugly chapter of denials and lies and TT and underground torture that can irrevocably kill whatever good will the BS has left.

Of course, in exchange, you have to watch the A continue to unfold in all its callousness while you do your sleuthing. The thing you're trying to pre-empt--open lying post-dday--could be worse yet, but often not by much. So you have to consider just how badly you want to save an M with such a proficient liar and betrayer.

Taking this course is a conscious act of sacrifice and love, IMO. I hope that after all the dust clears your WW will prove herself worthy of having been given such a clear path and a chance at R, and not just shit all over you again. I have a feeling she's been at this double life thing a loooong time...

I doubt you could generalize about that either way. I think some WSs shut down, some over-compensate, some actually get turned on more by BS (my WW's claim..yuck), some simply consciously try to change nothing so as to not arouse suspicion.

WW who are able to compartmentalize, like yours - who wanted an open marriage in order to have sex with other men with your consent - are not the norm. But I do agree with your assessment.

Nevertheless, there are sudden changes that indicate that something is quite not right when having sex with an unfaithful spouse.

I have a feeling she's been at this double life thing a loooong time...

Its either that or the OM is an experienced cheater and is coaching her on how to keep it deep underground.

WW who are able to compartmentalize, like yours - who wanted an open marriage in order to have sex with other men with your consent - are not the norm. But I do agree with your assessment.

Nevertheless, there are sudden changes that indicate that something is quite not right when having sex with an unfaithful spouse.

Actually, I knew there was something wrong because of the emotional detachment during the A...not what you would expect if she was really all about "Open" and great at compartmentalizing...but she's been full of contradictions both before and after D-Day.

I confronted on 2 e-mails (didn't even have them saved) that were very suggestive, and got instant admission, although lies wrt to details (# of times, etc.). I confronted OM on the same evidence, and got e-mail replies (written proof) apologizing, begging for forgiveness, etc. Thank goodness. I found SI the next day, and didn't yet know about gas-lighting, TT, outright denials of the obvious, etc.

I'm pulling for you CO.

Onions,

You're in a difficult situation. Thanks for answering my Q's, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

So you will eventually confront even if you don't get more evidence, because according to your M boundaries, she has already gone too far?

Sleuth away...as long as you have the stomach and the budget for it. I'm so sorry your WW is so cunning and deceitful over the long term, and not just "temporarily insane." Like the rest of us BSes you will probably be reevaluating whether you even want to be with someone like that if your M ever gets to R.

Regarding the small typing box, it drives me crazy too, but I have found a solution:

When you realize you will be writing something long, type it in a Word document first then paste it onto the SI box. If I have already started writing in the SI box and realize I need to see it bigger, for editing purposes, I cut and paste what I have already written into a Word document page, and cut it and paste it back to SI when I am finished writing.

The only problem is that you have to add bold, italic, quote box, emotitrons (smiley face thingies) after you're done typing....unless you happen to remember how to type them out, such as [ italic ] [ bold ] .

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 3:04 PM, May 1st (Sunday)]

I haven't posted on this forum in about two weeks, but I'd be glad to throw my two cents in here.

CO, have you given any consideration for setting a date? As others have noted, you've been monitoring email for a long time. You've spent hours on this, in addition to caring for your daughter and playing it cool with your WW.

I won't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I don't think that's the "job" of anyone on SI. Howeer, I can tell you that more than six months after discovery, I'm still a pressure cooker who explodes at my wife regularly.

That's understandable, but the longer you cope with this without confronting her or seeking professional help for yourself, the more work it will take for you to normalize down the road.

I imagine, you think it's worth it, but I agree with some previous sentiments: Beware the damage you are doing to yourself and your marriage in the process. None of this is your fault, but there's no telling how long your marriage will circle the drain before it's finally gone. Take care.

CO,

TMCM had a really good point - when was the last time you were intimate with your wife? Surely, after returning from a trip, she would expect you to be wanting her and/or vice versa. How is your daily communication? Is it typical or does it seem contrived now that she is back? You better than anyone should know if your wife is acting different. You should also know if you are intimate with her if she is more open to new ideas or willing to try new things - those ideas have to come from somewhere. I do not mean to pry into someone's private life but I could tell something was up with my WW as she did start instigating sex more frequently just prior to D-Day. And apparently she had been learning a few new tricks along the way.

Now once she was caught in bed bed naked with OM she did not confess anything - still to this day will not admit to anything more than the need to be held by a special friend. I can understand your need to get more proof and you may well get more but also be prepared to be told your lying eyes didn't see what they really did see and everything associated with OM will be minimalized and nothing ever happened. I hope that does not happen to you but TT is the worst thing - now that the A has been exposed and for all purposes is dead - the WS still does not have enough respect to simply tell the truth. Good luck to you.

PR

Onions, you have a PM.

I'm in the ranks of the folks who are a little concerned about your future prospects.

Your wife is being very careful and methodical, plus the OM lives a distance away. It could take a long time to prove anything substantial is going on.

Meanwhile your marriage is in a kind of limbo, a standoff; you suspiciously monitoring her, not knowing who she is involved with and to what extent. Thats a living hell and not what most people would describe as a flourishing marriage.

Best to discuss this and try to intiate a genuine reconciliation right now. In this case time will not improve the state of your relationship. Quite the opposite.

I'm wondering if you have ever thought of turning the tables on your WW? Get her to start wondering about you for a change. Kind of making yourself out to be some sort of mystery.

Also, when she goes out of town are you always at her beck and call? Are you always there to grab the phone on the first ring when she calls or does she have to call back a couple of times before reaching you. Maybe you should start making yourself a little mysterious. Just a thought to get her off square one.