SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

jjct sez: Ever try Texas 1015?

There, jjct. Fixed it for you. That's a TAMU onion, by the way.

Onions, the casual and unnecessary lying about inconsequential matters is disturbing. It's second nature. She's okay with it.

You already know she's gonna lie about the affair, when the trap is sprung. Which is exactly why you're patiently monitoring and investigating. Keep doing it. She will make a mistake that she will not be able to explain away. Patience.

Shit can her honey-do list. Until you're back to work, you're the bad ass master blaster of the domestic world. You decide what will be done and what gets done based on your own priority list. If she has her own ideas about something, she can take over that particular duty. Why not give her a little something to think about by showing a non-deferential side of your personality. Take "yes dear" out of your vocabulary.

Sage advise palerider but at this point you may be beating a dead horse!!

Satriani,

You're right. Onions' investigation will eventually discover indisputable evidence of her affair. However, by then he'll have learned a lot of other bad crap about his wife during the investigation process, as we have seen. While I get the impression that Onions is mentally prepared to work out the adultery issue, by the time it all comes to a head, he'll have so much other negative information revealed about his wife's persona (either her true self or her new affair-transformed self) he may decide his wife isn't worth the trouble.

Spot on Palerider. I love reading your posts!

When are the relatives coming? Are you planning to confront after they leave?

End of the week. No idea yet. I'm still finding out quite a few things lately, as mentioned above.

I've been with you from the beginning on biding your time. You are a good man onions. I think you are wise to keep playing your cards close to the vest.

The dynamic of being a stay at home dad - how it works on you, how it works on her - is going to be something you (both?) work out in your own time,

...

Ever try vidalia?

Thanks. I'm with ya. OM remains long distance, so it's actually a good time to try to gather info. It's not been easy, that's for sure. Her phone is rarely out of her reach.

I love onions, but not much of a connoisseur. I'm particular to sweet ones though!

You already know she's gonna lie about the affair, when the trap is sprung. Which is exactly why you're patiently monitoring and investigating. Keep doing it. She will make a mistake that she will not be able to explain away. Patience.

Shit can her honey-do list. Until you're back to work, you're the bad ass master blaster of the domestic world. You decide what will be done and what gets done based on your own priority list. If she has her own ideas about something, she can take over that particular duty. Why not give her a little something to think about by showing a non-deferential side of your personality. Take "yes dear" out of your vocabulary.

All good advice, noted. I've been starting to look at bills and receipts and all I can say is "holy crap" on the expenditures. Don't think there's much directly affair related, but she's much more of a spender than I thought. I used to rib her about all the packages that come to our doorstep, but I had no idea about the expense (she manages most of the bills). We're not hurting, and our debt is fine, but good God, I could see that money going to better purposes than a wardrobe that seems to be eating a VERY large bite out of our income (and storage space). Since I quit my job, I've been sooooo frugal (make my own coffee, no big purchases, comparison shopping, etc.). I'd love to go back more than the couple of months I've seen, but older stuff is shredded and going online to look for stuff has only gotten me into near-trouble due to security alerts. I'll get to it in due time, though, now that my wallet is tingling.

You're right. Onions' investigation will eventually discover indisputable evidence of her affair. However, by then he'll have learned a lot of other bad crap about his wife during the investigation process, as we have seen. While I get the impression that Onions is mentally prepared to work out the adultery issue, by the time it all comes to a head, he'll have so much other negative information revealed about his wife's persona (either her true self or her new affair-transformed self) he may decide his wife isn't worth the trouble.

Well, there's nothing too mind-blowing about the non-affair stuff (except for the lying). I don't think these are deal-breakers (so far), but definitely ripe for deep discussion. It does get overwhelming sometimes trying to manage and interpret all the bits and pieces.

She's now brought up dissatisfaction with her job, and (again) wanting to bail for another job (but not until I'm back at work). She says she would want to take some "time off" before starting a new one (again, I'd be back at work). Not sure given all the events that I could deal with her having so much free time on her hands. Another shaky issue to deal with, bah. Confrontation will definitely happen before any serious consideration of this.

Spot on Palerider. I love reading your posts!

Agree 100%.

One thing you need to keep in the back of your mind is that at present you are the caregiver. You also said that your wife seemed to be suspicious at one point. If roles are reversed you no longer would be the caregiver. I think I would confront before any changes are made and have at least five or six MC sessions to assure she has a mindset to stay in the M before looking about changing the work enviorment. Howver, need to recognize too, that she could be trying to get out of the mess she got herself into, if company was on its way could be a good time to ask.

I couldn't read everything...but I think I have a pretty good idea of whats going on. Just confront her. If she doesnt give immediate and sincere remorse...it will never work. You're suffering from her selfishness. I know this is harsh, but I filed within a week of DDay...now 3 yrs out and I have kids and her life is in the toilet. It will get better.

Onions,

At this point the only way you can obtain more evidence is by letting her continue with the affair. Do you want to wait till she sleeps with him, to gather more evidence?

Just confront with what you have.

Chopping,

As you know I used to be a cop. As such I had to know the difference between what we can call legal evidence (LE) and work evidence (WE). LE is something you could build a charge or indictment on. WE is something that you could build, base or direct an investigation on but would not necessarily be documented or enter court. So far you have NOTHING that is even close to LE but some things that COULD be WE.

For example: If I found a car that had been reported stolen parked by a diner. If I saw a known car-thief having a hamburger in the diner I would obviously think he was the one that took the car BUT I couldn’t arrest him based solely on that. It might give me reason to talk to him, to single out his prints for dusting, ask people at the diner who came in on that car and so on. It would definitely guide me in what I would search for. BUT… I would be a fool to tell a judge that THIS man was the thief because the car was outside the diner. At best the case would be thrown out – at worst the REAL thief (the guy having the salad at the end of the diner) would get away scot free.

Based on what YOU have posted many others have seen clear and undoubted sexual activity, infidelity, lesbianism, multiple affairs… Using my above story it’s like I would try to pin a bank-robbery, rape and the drug-traffic on the east-coast on this particular possible car thief. It’s like assuming a car is stolen simply because the driver is a tattooed male, 16-20 years old wearing hip-hop clothing…

Based SOLELY on what you post then this is what I can see in your situation:

The e-mails are a clear, big and obvious red flag. There is SOMETHING going on.

Is it an affair? Well – yes. At an absolute minimum she is seeking something outside the marriage that should be within it. So as an absolute minimum it’s an emotional affair.

Is it physical? Well – some of the wording does indicate a physical level BUT to-date I haven’t seen anything confirming it. Sorry but wearing a nightie does not equate sex in my world. Inappropriate texts don’t make it physical. CO – I tell you here and now – you are the best kisser I have ever met. Does this statement automatically mean we two have had a physical affair?

Is there a problem? YES YES YES!!! There are clearly and definitely issues in the marriage and they are serious!

1) It sounds like she isn’t happy with the SAHD concept. I don’t know if it’s because of income, work unhappiness, gender-role displacement, jealousy, social status, involvement in decision or what. But this is definitely something you two have to look very seriously into.

2) Financial aspects. This in a sense goes back to the first point. It sounds as if you two have separate accounts and separate financial lives. I base this on her purchases that you finally now are noting and how she has been able to slip by certain expenses. Now – I am NOT saying people need to share one account or can’t have separate incomes and all that BUT basically in a marriage you both own the income and both own the debts so you both have to agree on how the money flows through.

You make one telling comment: “our debt is fine”. Other than a reasonable car-loan and mortgage then do you need to have any debt? (I don’t expect you to answer this but want you to contemplate on it). Is she unhappy with not being able to live in the two-income bracket? Keep in mind financial issues are the second largest reason people decide to divorce and is a key-indicator to the biggest reason: bad communications.

3) Communications: It sounds like they aren’t too good… The “not enough sex” aspect is extremely common in marriages with bad communications because good communications are KEY to feeling comfortable enough to address the problem. Add to that the subdued mood that seems to be at the home, the financial distance etc…

Look – be clear on this. I AM NOT DENYING A POSSIBLE PHYSICAL AFFAIR. But I am equally open to this being an EA, a crush or symptoms of other issues.

I for one have a feeling that the reason you haven’t caught anything on the VAR or mail recently and the reason her mood has been so subdued after the conference could be that the relationship was terminated at that point. But at what stage? Was it a PA already and he ended it? Did he end it when she approached him? Did she end it? Or is it still ongoing? No way I can know that.

But then you have to keep in mind that EA’s CAN be one-sided. A WS can have a deep emotional attachment to another person and that person has a completely different take on the situation.

OK – what would I suggest?

Well – I think the “reasonable time” for investigating I suggested some time ago is over. I think EITHER it’s too deep and you can’t find it OR there isn’t an ongoing affair. (Keyword ONGOING. There COULD have BEEN an affair). I think it’s time for confrontation.

I would suggest you confront her on several fronts and points:

Take the communications and financial situation. Talk about how you sense she isn’t happy with your role right now. Talk about how you feel that you two aren’t addressing the issues as a unit with a common goal. Make it clear that this is not HER doing or issue any more than yours. Make it clear that you are bringing this up because you care and you really want the marriage to develop the right way because you, your wife and your child DESERVE that. Make it VERY clear that you want to do the work AND that you think outside help is needed.

Then also tell her that you have been told that she is having an affair. DO NOT mention OM by name. Simply tell her that someone phoned you and told you about it and gave you enough info for it to be believable. Make it clear to her that she can deny (and she will…) but that at the moment you fear there might be truth in it. Tell her that it’s PRECISELY because of this fear that you want to work on the marriage. Give her an amnesty: no truth she tells you now can end the marriage but any secret you uncover might. Make it clear that you WANT total trust in your marriage.

SHE WILL DENY and there can only be two reasons for denial. She can deny because there wasn’t an affair and she can deny because that’s what WS do. So her denial can be a no-win situation if you hang on too long. Right now – with what you have – it doesn’t matter. If there is an ongoing affair then within 6 hours of confrontation she will contact OM if there is an affair to warn him. There will be an activity of contact and with what you have in place you should catch that.

DO NOT enter how you know. Don’t mention ANY true source you have. Simply state a reliable enough person (don’t even acknowledge knowing the name) told you over the phone XX days ago. Don’t even limit it to “someone at your office”. Simply call the informant “a friend of the marriage”.

Take it from there. See how she responds. See how you two can move on. If there is an affair then this confrontation won’t end it. She will be in touch with him and you will catch it. But I fear the present situation can only allow other serious, clear and tangible issues to fester and grow.

YEah, What bigger said^^^^^^.

Brilliant!

Wow that is awesome BIGGER- sounds like I need some advise from BIGGER.

Very well put...

Great advice Bigger! Very well put and a great analysis.

Damn, Bigger, I wish I'd known you a year and a half ago....

Excellent advice.

Thinking of you, Chopping Onions.

Just had family visit for two weeks and it was a blessing to have the distraction. I hope you're finding the same type of relief.

Please update us when you can.

Well, Bigger...there you go again! Being SENSIBLE and all that. I am truly thankful for another of your very insightful posts, which no doubt took some time to assemble. You are a good man, and I'd love to buy you a cold one.

I think you are spot-on about a great deal of issues that I'm dealing with. I'll clarify a few things before I get to my interpretations.

1) No doubt she has issues with the SAHD concept. It was not in the plans for either of us for it to be this long. The "affair" issue kind of derailed things, primarily.

2) Financially, as I said, no big problems. We made more this year than when we were both working. Finances are sort of both mixed and also separate to a degree. We kept our accounts we had before marriage (but made them both joint), mainly for convenience and diversity. Spending for either of us could come from either account, but our incomes went to separate accounts and we divided up the bills. My account was generally for the house and a few other things; hers was for the rest. Disposable spending was generally separate from each account, but not at all exclusive. I just never bothered to peek at hers, other than the balance. Up until very recently, what I had in my account was still taking care of my share of the expenses (including the house). Regardless, we are not hurting.

3) Communication: If you asked me about this a few weeks ago, I would have said that things were fairly good. Outwardly, nothing today has really changed all that much, perhaps because she doesn't have any idea that I know what I do about her. From my point of view, however, as I'm seeing this web of untruths unfold, I am beginning to feel that she's been keeping up appearances for far longer and to a much greater degree than I ever imagined.

I was told by her today that she was meeting a former coworker after work for a couple of hours. She returned with a gloriously detailed description of their encounter, catching up and all. The time that she was gone, I later discovered on my own, happened to coincide with an event that she regularly attends annually (something of a special interest/hobby of hers). One of her best friends happens to call the house and leave a message. Now, I missed hearing the message, but WW and BFF both have an enthusiasm for this festival of sorts, and it's unusual for her to call except on the weekends (and while this event is going on - today and for the next couple of weeks). In retrospect, I'm almost certain that she went to this event with her best friend, instead of seeing the "old friend". Unfortunately, the VAR battery crapped out and I missed any proof. When she found out there was a phone message from her friend, she got a bit flustered and deleted the message after hearing the salutation. I have no idea why she would be deceptive about this, since I expect her to go to this every year. Perhaps guilt that I'm at home taking care of the little one and scrubbing toilets while she's out having fun?

I do know that today's event was definitely not an affair related thing, but this is clearly a problem and is likely more pervasive than I realized. My point is that where I thought communication was reasonably good (outside of A issues), it appears to be something entirely different. This needs to be addressed, otherwise there is no going forward.

I do very much like your approach to confrontation, and I've been thinking somewhat along the same lines. I expect denial, and probably contact with OM shortly after. I do see some problems with that scenario, mainly that evidence of contact alone doesn't really "prove" anything (could be any one of current or former EA or PA, crush, or whatever). If I have a recording of the conversation, well that might tell me something. But between her cell phone, work phone, and half a dozen other ways to communicate outside the home or car, I'm not sure I like my chances.

I have a bit of time to think about the details (family coming, so confrontation is not going to happen in the next week or two), but I've been quietly putting together my case. I'm dreading the potential impact of all this on my daughter, obviously.

Many thanks for your input. Your posts are gold.

She's now brought up dissatisfaction with her job, and (again) wanting to bail for another job

Did she ever want to leave her job during the time she was actively carrying on with OM? If no, it could be that is is over between her and OM. Remember all the sighing hour heard on the VAR a few weeks ago soon after she returned from her rondez vous with him?

When she found out there was a phone message from her friend, she got a bit flustered and deleted the message after hearing the salutation.

Why would a salutation cause her to be flustered? Plus, if she is like anyone else, she knows her answering machine and wouldn't "accidently" fiddle with it while a message is being listened to. Now my mind might be totally defiled by everything I have read here on SI over the past couple of years, but now I am thinking that she deleted the message because she was afraid of what the message might say, or because of who the woman was. Remember that your WW told OM she was into girls? May be one of these female friends is more than just a friend now, and that is why she is edgy when she hers her messages, and why the friend is acting differently and calling at different times than she used to, boldenly believing that you would never suspect a thing since they are just "girlfriends."

As I reread your post it seems that she was not being honest about the meeting or the festival or both. And why would she come home and give you such details about her meeting? Does she always tell you all the details? I didn't have the impression your WW was much of a talker, but now all of the sudden she is volunteering details....which I know you wish she did more of, and you were happy to be included in. But was any of it true, or just a ruse to cover something else?

Nothing is true until it is proven. So many times I have read here on SI and experienced in my own life, that in hindsite, innocent things that I noticed were "different" than the norm, and which I dismissed at the time, were not innocent at all, but were a direct result of the A and all the related coverup/deception.

Are you even sure about the "festival?" Something about how WW is acting seems fishy. Can you make a "surprise visit?" (Don't bring DD.)

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 10:34 AM, May 20th (Friday)]

Remember that your WW told OM she was into girls? May be that this female friend is more than just a friend now, and that is why she is edgy when she hers her messages, and why the friend is acting differently and calling at different times than she used to, boldenly believing that you would never suspect a thing since they are just "girlfriends."

I thought the SAME thing.

Did she ever want to leave her job during the time she was actively carrying on with OM? If no, it could be that is is over between her and OM. Remember all the sighing hour heard on the VAR a few weeks ago soon after she returned from her rondez vous with him?

Oh yes, in fact she even accepted another job offer and told her company she was leaving. Only after they gave her an offer she couldn't refuse did she decide to stay. Since then she has nearly taken two other jobs.

It's very hard to know what the current status is between them. I've seen communication between them lately, it's all fairly platonic and business-like. He says thanks for the wine. She sent him a book. Friendly chat, but not much work related.

Why would a salutation cause her to be flustered? Plus, if she is like anyone else, she knows her answering machine and wouldn't "accidently" fiddle with it while a message is being listened to.

Well, it wasn't so much flustered as frustrated. She wasn't really fiddling, just had a stern look, then hit delete after a sentence or two on the message.

...now I am thinking that she deleted the message because she was afraid of what the message might say, or because of who the woman was.

Yes, it's very possible her friend was saying that she was late for the event and couldn't get her by cell, or something to that effect. I'm pretty sure there's no conspiracy - her friend likely thought I knew about it.

I'm guessing WW deleted the message thinking it might expose her lie, since I was sitting there at the time. On the other hand, it could be something totally innocent, since I don't have actual proof of her whereabouts last night.

As I reread your post it seems that she was not being honest about the meeting or the festival or both. And why would she come home and give you such details about her meeting? Does she always tell you all the details? I didn't have the impression your WW was much of a talker, but now all of the sudden she is volunteering details.

She very often offers details. We do talk a lot. I'm just thinking that it's possible that those details about her "old friend" might have come from a different conversation (maybe a lunch, an email, or a phone conversation from another recent time), and for some reason she may have misrepresented her whereabouts last night. Like I said, I think it's quite likely that it's guilt for going out and having a fun time while I'm at home with DD. It's also possible that she's making it look like she didn't go so she can later spend more time at the event in the coming days without it looking like she's overdoing it. I'm intentionally being a bit vague here, since full description would probably give away too much personal information.

As for there being a secret lesbian thing going on, 100% no way. Her BFF is a very honest, good person, very religious, although not the sharpest tool in the shed. I think her friend was just as much in the dark as me about the lie (or possible lie, I should say). It's still possible that she actually was with the "old friend" and I'm reading too much into this. It's pretty solid that there is no ongoing infidelity with anyone other than asshole vice-president guy.

[This message edited by ChoppingOnions at 3:47 PM, May 20th (Friday)]

As for there being a secret lesbian thing going on, 100% no way. Her BFF is a very honest, good person, very religious, although not the sharpest tool in the shed.

If it is one thing I have learned through all this..it is to never make any assumptions about how another human will act or what they will or won't do. I do not put anything past anyone...and considering the "girl" comment you might want to just keep an open mind.

Well, it turns out the meeting with her old coworker actually did take place (found a dinner receipt). False alarm.

If it is one thing I have learned through all this..it is to never make any assumptions about how another human will act or what they will or won't do. I do not put anything past anyone...and considering the "girl" comment you might want to just keep an open mind.

I hear ya, but my statement about her and her best friend still stands...I know both of them well enough to know this. Whether she has or had something going on with some other woman, I'm pretty confident it's "no", but I can never be 100% sure. There's certainly no evidence of it, as far as I can tell.