SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry to say, but- WHAT A SADISTIC BITCH! The more I read these posts, the more I'm glad I'm getting the fuck out of here. Jesus bro, I really feel for you. Honestly, I don't see how you can stay with her. Then again, its your decision to make.

reggie - she did have a difficult time telling me, and in some ways I'm not completely sure if she meant to say some of those things that way to be cruel or if she was embarrassed. She would actually argue that I asked for the truth and she gave it, and so she feels like she can't win. I did ask for the truth, and so it hurts, but I'm not sure what her intentions were in the way she told me these things. I know she did want to leave out the squirting part, and when she agreed to tell me all the details, she said, "okay, I'm going to leave out some things that will really hurt your feelings, okay?" Well how am I supposed to react to that??? No way, I want to know. I need to know. So she told me, and it really hurt my feelings. We didn't know the guidelines or "rules" of a successful detail session, so we did and said a lot of things that would be different if we did it now. She would probably say things a little better, more sensitive to me, and I would not react to the details with anger and sarcasm like I did (training her to not answer). I actually did a pretty good job considering what I was being told, without knowing all the "rules."

Your ex sounds incredibly cruel. I'm so sorry. I don't think my wife would do that to that level, because if she did I would not be trying to reconcile. What my wife did was horrible, and she does feel bad now. But, she doesn't know what I'm going through and we need a ton of work, and I need a ton of work...

JanaGreen & need2moveon - thank you.

Thinkingtoomuch - Apparently I had already had some sort of work related stress that caused me to run almost 24/7 on adrenaline and it would never shut off. I would work 25 hours at a time and then get only a few hours sleep then get back at it. The pressure was intense and the job was consuming me, (and that's how she managed to fit in these meetings with these other men). So when it hit, I wasn't physically prepared for such a huge trauma. It shut me off from work, and luckily I could hire some others to take over temporarily. I used work as a coping mechanism (like in the 180 steps) to focus on something positive and keep me busy as much as I could, but now I don't have that anymore, and it is now an additional source of grief, which caused me to break down and just take the Lexapro. But since D-Day, I hadn't been sleeping hardly at all and I would have frequent panic attacks, and that lasted for 7-8 months. The Inderal made me extremely tired at first, and I was able to get sleep for the first time in a long time. Then the firing happened and so I started the Lexapro for the intensified depression. For a while I just felt very tired and numb, and now I still feel numb but I have a stinging/burning sensation all over and major depression, and incredibly tired all the time. There is a correlation to how my wife treats me, and lately she seems depressed, too, and not as caring towards me. I'm supposed to be on the Lexapro for another 12 weeks at least and the Inderal for another 3 months at least, and then I will ween off them. I asked my doc today about all the dosing info and she will get back to me.

sad/mad/numb - how are you able to handle this? Did he tell you the details? I have tried rationalizing that it is her problem and not mine, and I have even been told that by counselors, but I wish it would do some good. I went through a phase where I told myself that all the time, "why should I feel bad when I didn't do anything wrong?"

Bigger - I'm 5'9" - the first guy was 6'3" and the second guy was taller than me, too. When I called a place my wife said he played sports to see if I could get his last name during my investigating, I described him with his first name, the lady said, "yeah, he's a big guy." [Sorry we're having this discussion when you're handle has nothing to do with this!] Anyway, it's not too much of a leap to assume he was bigger, but my wife did tell me that even though he was bigger he was not better, and so she didn't see him again and went looking for the next guy. Doesn't make me feel better, but at least she didn't say bigger was better...?

I do understand the reasons she had the affairs was all her. She was misguided and bought into the lie that an affair could bring fulfillment. She even read some famous article about how a woman found happiness in having an ongoing affair. She sees the lie now, and she said she was glad I caught her so she could stop.

I know there are contradictions, I say bad things one post and then positive defensive things in another, like this one. It's never simple, otherwise I'd be out with a D already. My current state is I am tormented and in anguish and I don't want to live, because I don't know what to do. I can't be rational, even though I try. Everything that she did hurts me and is causing me pain in many different areas. I'm trying to stay logical and figure it all out and make sense of this, but it's such an illogical problem to have.

She explained that the reasons why she posted ads for "tall" and "with abs" and all that, was that if I were to place an ad for a woman to have sex with I would want "big boobs" or something like that. I would describe the "perfect" looking stereotype. I can understand that, but it still kills me.

Everyone - I have some questions about the 180 stuff. As I read through those directives, it seems that it's for when the spouse is still involved in the ongoing affair and doesn't care if they make an effort to reconcile. It's basically saying, "ignore her and be happy and forget her and move on, and then she will want you again and stop her affair." I've been doing that all day with her and she still hasn't read the "Fallout" post that tells her all about what I'm going through and how to help me. (She might be reading this downstairs now, but I'm not supposed to check.) The other problem I will have with the 180 thing is that I am not a happy person right now, and I can only fake it so much. The Lexapro is an "anti-depressant," so why am I still really depressed? It's frustrating to always be this tired all the time.

Thanks again for the support and advice.

Keep posting...keep reading...I don't have anymore advice than that.

This is an amazing site with so much wisdom. Read it and the answers WILL come.

So sorry...I will keep checking in on you.

L.O., Sorry that you find yourself in our happy company.

You've been married 18 years and your oldest is only 6. Was it mainly your wife's idea to hold off on having kids until later?

You discovered her sexual adventures via iphone misadventure (slow update), not by any change in behavior or general weirdness on her part. Craigslist trolling is very extreme behavior, even for a WW. Usually, it takes a while for people to work their way into the deep end of the cesspool. Get my drift? This has been brewing for a good long time and it would still be going on without her having some bad luck on the backup.

I looked up and asked her, "how many?" She looked up for a moment, then looked back at me and said, "two.

Researchers will tell you that in survey responses, women reduce the number of sex partners they admit to having had. The greater the perceived anonymity for the woman responding, the higher the number of sex partners admitted to.

I found out that she met with 8 other men and made out with 5 of them, too. One she was "falling for."

Yup. Here the "activity" was most likely minimized.

I have nightmares. I want to kill myself. But not before I take them first.

Unfortunately for me and you, the Texas "Paramour Law", which allowed such killings, was repealed in 1974. Lots more cheating today, since there is no downside. The latest allegation I saw, a couple of days ago, is that we're up to approx 60% for males and 50% for females. Most of this activity goes undetected and 80% of marriages will have one or both having cheating at some point, they claim.

I have been to counseling where they say all the answers are in the bible, and I believe in miracles for sure, but I feel like God is not answering my prayers.

I think the are there, both as to why and what to do about it, but your counselors don't see the answers. WWJD? Jesus had very good reasons for saying that it was completely okay to divorce and replace a wife when sexual misconduct by the wife was present.

Also note that in the Old Testament, God symbolically divorces his "wives" Israel/Samaria and Judea for their many adulteries (going after false gods).

Of special interest are the metaphorical reasons given in Ezekiel chapter 23 as to why the metaphorical "wives" went after their lovers. These traits should be obvious but evolutionary psych researchers find the same patterns presented in this passage and act like they've discovered cold fusion.

v 23:6 One group was "clothed in purple, governors and officials, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding on horses"

The lovers are young and perceived by the women to be desirable. They dress well, they're manly, athletic, and in authority positions. Sound's like some of your wife's friends, maybe.

V 23:8 She did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her,and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her.

You're a serious Christian, so you wanted until married to have sex. Me, too. If your wife was not a virgin when you married, she may have more of a past and more kinky experience than you think. Mine did.

v23:14 she saw men portrayed on the wall, images ...portrayed with vermilion, girded with belts on their loins, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them looking like officers...When she saw them she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea."

No computers and Craigslist in the Bible days, but they did have pictures and messengers. Nothing's changed, it's all just easier today.

v23:17 "...came to her to the bed of love and defiled her with their harlotry. And when she had been defiled by them, she became disgusted with them...remembering the days of her youth, when she played the harlot, she lusted after her paramours, whose [c*cks] are like the [c*cks] of donkeys and whose ejaculation is like the ejaculation of horses.

Sounds way too familiar to your wife's claims, I know. Just shows nothing has changed about WWs in 3000 years.

"you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom because of the breasts of your youth."

Premarital history is a big indicator of the likelihood of adultery and divorce, according to secular sources. the more premarital sex partners, the lesser the satisfaction with the marriage.

palerider - there's a lot here!

We held off because of our career, it was a mutual decision. Although when we finally had kids we wished we had had more earlier. I love kids and wanted more.

There was a slight change in behavior on her part, yes. In hindsight it's all too clear, but when it was happening it wasn't 100% unusual. She went to the gym a lot and got in great shape. I even thanked her for looking so good. She would use her iPhone at the gym and she moved her desk so her screen couldn't be seen. She started fights with me just to get mad at me, pushed me away and ignored me when I tried to ask her what was bothering her. One day she told me that she didn't love me anymore and she was staying for the kids. That was a sad day, but I just thought she needed space. Then she seemed to change and she was passive and she stopped fighting with me, and she wanted a ton of sex and I thought it was great, although she was emotionally distant at times.

She had been thinking about doing this for 2 years she tells me, and then she started just browsing craigslist for fun I think in Feb., then posted in April, etc.

Admitting to sex partners - Believe me, I thought about our entire 17 years of marriage and wondered the same thing. I do believe she has told me the accurate numbers and it was limited to this. We discussed this very thing. I do, however, feel there are small details she left out, that are meaningless details to her, but I still want to know. Conversations, etc.

There was a "paramour law?!" We have only been in TX for 5 years, but I wish it was 1973 because I would do it for sure if it was legal.

Why isn't this more of a big deal where they make PSA's about this??? It's debilitating!

Regarding what Jesus said about divorce, now I understand so much more! If "God hates divorce," and yet allows it when there is adultery, that means God knows how painful it is to endure. I often wonder if that's what God would prefer i do, or if it would be less painful if I did.

The quotes from Ezekiel are interesting and it really is like craigslist in a way. The church counselors haven't given me the example of how God divorces Israel, they gave me Hosea instead, where God told him to marry a prostitute who would have a bunch of kids with other men. See how helpful these counselors are? That just made me feel so much better to read about that.

Okay, so you bring up something important regarding past history. Yes, my wife did have a messed up history before we married. She had a few different partners but then became a Christian and stopped sleeping around for several years by the time we met. I thought she was past it. But 18 years later???

So what happened with you, did you R or D?

Absolutely heartless. For her to say those things to you, in a fog or not, is absolutely heartless.

The things your wife said to you are beyond extremely cruel and damaging..

I'm sorry.

If it had been me..I would have took her to the nearest street corner and set her out for a while... she could at least use her whoring around to bring home a few dollars for groceries.

As someone that played a group sport semi-professionally, went to a mainly male police academy, worked at a mainly male environment for years and has been going to a gym for more than two decades I have seen more male members than a normal hetrosexual man cares to have seen. I kid you not – there is no connection between physical height/size and penis size.

I know this is obsessing, but I just googled these guys again, and the second guy is on a dating site right now with his picture looking for casual sex. How many lives will this guy damage?!

Yes – obsessive.

Does that site have a forum? Can you post comments on that site? If so then post this:

Are you the one that gave my wife herpes or did she give it to you? What works best on your blisters?

Nah – although the above would be fun then the solution is to defocus on the OM and start focusing on the problem at hand: Your wife and your marriage.

I’m a Christian and I have gone through all the anguish of turning the other cheek, forgiving those that transgress on my rights. Frankly I doubt a Christian counselor is what you need right now. What you need is a counselor that has specialized in dealing with infidelity – preferably a Christian one. Big difference in emphasis. A typical religion-based MC would focus on forgiving – the later on healing that leads to forgiving.

If the OM on the site is one of the married OM then you definitely should let his wife know what he’s up to.

How many lives will this guy damage?!

He doesn't care about "damaging" anyone...he's looking for someone to squirt on.

There was a slight change in behavior on her part, yes. In hindsight it's all too clear, but when it was happening it wasn't 100% unusual. She went to the gym a lot and got in great shape. I even thanked her for looking so good. She would use her iPhone at the gym and she moved her desk so her screen couldn't be seen. She started fights with me just to get mad at me, pushed me away and ignored me when I tried to ask her what was bothering her. One day she told me that she didn't love me anymore and she was staying for the kids. That was a sad day, but I just thought she needed space. Then she seemed to change and she was passive and she stopped fighting with me, and she wanted a ton of sex and I thought it was great, although she was emotionally distant at times.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20. About 15 years ago, when my sex life first started dwindling (i have to chuckle at that) to nothing, I saw something on TV about how a change in sex frequency from the wife, up or down, was an indicator of trouble, and many guys got more and better sex when the wife was on the prowl. My previously very sexy wife (stockings with no panties for office wear in the summer - I know, I know, she told me it was for the heat) turned into an old maid. I said something like "I heard on the radio that cheating wives put out more." Her reply was "I doubt that. If I was cheating you'd be getting less." !!?

I never got "I don't love you" but I did get the out of the blue request for marriage counseling and "I'm not happy." Clueless, even when hit over the head with a near admission.

Funny stuff, no? Those are just a couple of a whole division's worth of red guidons flapping in my face over the years, that I not only overlooked, I moved them out of my way.

She had been thinking about doing this for 2 years she tells me, and then she started just browsing craigslist for fun I think in Feb., then posted in April, etc.

This comes after the subconscious devaluation of the husband as a man, i.e. he's not a "bad boy" who makes her tingle down there. The WW type woman (say 50% of women, let's not generalize) are what are called hypergamous (always looking to trade up - Abigail and Bathsheeba are two Biblical examples of this behavior, and their husbands ended up dead). They subconsciously want to mate and reproduce with higher value, good gene males. They want guys who are confident, good bodies, funny, already in a relationship (yes), and that exhibit the irresistible "Dark Triad" traits. A couple years ago, I was kidding around with a female friend of my wife's after I first got my 25-yr-old physique back. Most of the guys there were much younger than me (55) but I had the best body in the place and I told her friend that. Later, my wife said it made her super hot, because I was so cocky. Huh?

That's when I decided to actually start looking into what women find attractive. Before I started getting fat around age 40, I would get hit on every day, so the laws of female attraction were never of any concern to me, and especially so after marriage. Come to find out you really have to work on maintaining that attraction especially after you're married. Who knew?

Turns out helping around the house too much, making her tell you where she wants to go for dinner, and generally being a conscientious, decent husband is kind of a turn-off for the wayward personality type.

Whether or not you decide to dump your wife, you should check out a blog called "Married Man Sex Life". The guy who runs it is an ex-Christian, but he's really got some great concepts of how to keep a woman sexually interested over the long haul. I highly recommend it and think the guys stuff is very valid, just from how my wife responds, even though sex is no longer part of our relationship.

Regarding what Jesus said about divorce, now I understand so much more! If "God hates divorce," and yet allows it when there is adultery, that means God knows how painful it is to endure. I often wonder if that's what God would prefer i do, or if it would be less painful if I did.

For me, it would be a no-brainer, except for the kids. Kids are the issue. In Bible days, and in the more recent past up to about 150 yrs ago, when a woman left, the kids stayed with daddy and the WW got zero. Obviously, those days are gone. Men pay. And they don't even get to blow away the OM anymore.

The church counselors haven't given me the example of how God divorces Israel, they gave me Hosea instead, where God told him to marry a prostitute who would have a bunch of kids with other men. See how helpful these counselors are?

How completely predictable. It's because their agenda is to "save your marriage." Which isn't necessarily Biblical. Did they also point out that Hosea most likely had other wives who were not prostitutes? And that some scholars interpret chapter three as God commanding Hosea to add a second prosti-wife (to represent Judah) instead of the usual reading that Hosea was not redeeming Gomer out of a whore house? In fact, the Biblical model of marriage is usually polygamy, LOL. Remember, God himself had two adulterous "wives."

She had a few different partners but then became a Christian and stopped sleeping around for several years by the time we met.

Sounds familiar.

I thought she was past it. But 18 years later???

Especially 18 years later. Is she about 40? Menopause anyone? The biological clock has taken over the upper brain. You aren't acceptable to reproduce with (devaluation), so it's time to hit Craigslist. All body agenda.

So what happened with you, did you R or D?

Neither. We're roommates.

We've got three grown kids still living at home. In six months, the oldest will be married and out, the next will be graduated, and the youngest will be off to college.

My situation is complicated by the fact that I had my prostate out 4 years ago due to cancer and no longer have the solid steel donkey sized equipment. And what little is left doesn't work too well, so I'm at a disadvantage. Maybe I will get a coke can size bionic unit. They're expensive, so I will probably have to put an ad on Craigslist to get my money's worth.

[This message edited by palerider at 9:22 AM, April 14th (Thursday)]

Good stuff, pale. I hope you got to sample some other wares before surgery, like your wife did.

Alao, pale, can you elaborate on the technique and amount of effort required to regain your physique.

Ever read Ellington Darden's recommendations?

No, she's still "my one and only."

I'm a fan of Darden and especially Mike Mentzer. I personally train using Mentzer's "Heavy Duty" routine. In and out (blasted) in ten minutes. You need a training partner, though.

I feel like God is not answering my prayers

I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs.

-- Frederick Douglass, former slave, abolitionist

Bigger - you are absolutely right - I need a real Counselor who specializes in dealing with this, first, who as a side note is preferably a Christian.

Unfortunately, there is no forum and it's the single guy who is 10 years younger than me, the sex magician that made my wife experience female ejaculation.

forever.haunted - yeah, and to think that his standards are so low and he would probably screw anything that moves, and that my wife let him do her too, it's all the more disgusting.

palerider - I had so many strange signs and gut feelings myself, and I beat myself up all the time for not paying more attention to them. Really strange things, too, that are not logical or empirical. For instance, I was talking to our A/C repair guy and he was telling me about how he likes to go to this one bar and hit on all the ladies, and I don't know why he started telling me this, and then he told me he had sex with this other guys girlfriend and didn't know why he wants to get into a fight every time they run into each other. While he's telling me all this, I'm thinking, "why is he telling me this?" And then I got a stinging feeling that I shouldn't leave for my appointment with this guy in the house, with my wife left home. (I later asked her about that, and she said she wouldn't have considered that guy because he was gross.) But the feeling was odd and I had never been that "paranoid" before. Another thing was that I for some reason recalled a story my wife shared with me about her mother cheating on her dad when she was very young. I must have heard that story 19 years ago and yet I just remembered it out of the blue. (Turns out that there's something about this, where family patterns repeat themselves - our daughters are the same age as she was. It also turns out that my wife has never even asked her mother about this and doesn't know for sure now, even though she has spent her entire life believing that happened.) Other things, too, like seeing Ashley Madison ads on the news (the website that promotes having affairs) and I felt really, really disturbed by seeing that. There was also another incident on the news where some guys wife got busted having sex with a young kid in the park, and he was just standing there and I remember thinking, "that sucks" and "what a loser for staying with her." All the while it was happening to me.

I wish I knew about these sexual changes, too. Extra sex while on the prowl, etc. She was also reading a lot of trashy novels and really surrounding herself with a ton of crap. She had sex related iPhone apps and she even got me a book on sex positions for my birthday and a card that told me what pages she wanted to try. I thought, "who are you and what have you done with my wife?" I loved that part of it. But she was also distant in other areas, and really didn't talk to me much. She pushed me away with "emotional abuse" and drove me upstairs to pour myself into my work.

I'm going to have to check out that blog. She actually said that me not helping around the house and treating her like a maid was one of the reasons! She has since realized not a valid one, though, but I have probably been helping too much now.

I think if we didn't have kids I wouldn't even by trying.

Interesting about all the wives, and yeah, weird how the model is polygamy. The mormons are on to something, I guess.

reggie - did you have a RA?

squiffle - it could be that I am asking for a time machine, but in all seriousness it is the depression that is killing me. I won't stop believing in God, and I believe if he can raise people from the dead than he can turn back the clock. I actually don't even know what to pray for except the pain right now, and I can't shake this hopeless feeling I have. If there are things I can do "with my legs," I am doing them - I have sought medical help and I'm on medication, I have read a ton of books and materials, tried counseling, and I am here seeking advice and support. Or does that mean to walk out? Anyway, this is a tough one.

Douglass was a slave and he escaped to freedom -- he prayed with his legs. Sometimes prayer isn't abstract. God rewards action, is how I see the quote.

I don't see how you have much to R with, I'm sorry to say. Fwiw, my dad is a Methodist minister who does pastoral counseling and he encouraged me to leave my xwh.

LivingOn,

At about 7 months out my FWW said some things to me about one of her OM involving their ideal "fit" and penetration orgasams, and his skill at oral. Those statements hurt me a lot for quite a while. I realize now that what the OM had going for him was the excitement of sneaking away in the middle of the day to a hotel room and the fantasy she had running in her head.

Another thing he had going for him was that he was not an intimate part of her life. She could talk to him, fuck him, when she wanted to, and shut him out when she wanted to do that. She was in control and comfortable. With me, she was dealing with a lifetime of FOO and SAb issues that wrapped her up in shame and an inability to make an intimate attachment. I suspect there are similar dynamics in your sich.

She actually said that me not helping around the house and treating her like a maid was one of the reasons! She has since realized not a valid one, though, but I have probably been helping too much now

.

This too is very similar to our first year. FWW had all sorts of complaints about me, and said she was glad I had to forgive her for the A's because it made it easier for her to forgive me for being such an ass.

She said I did not love or care for her, but when I went through our recent history we were doing things as a couple, I was getting her special gifts focused on her hobbies and interests, I was actually doing more of the housework. Sure, I was not aware of her love language (nor her mine), I was not a cheerleader for her, but I was the one trying to keep the M going and make things better. Realizing how much I had been doing, and how much of our problems were her issues has helped me to regain my pair and my self-esteem. You can do this too.

If you choose to stay in the marriage, it will not be easy. You will have to find a strength you didn't know you had. I have the nightmares, and I have had the panic attacks which have gotten better with time. The movies will play over and over again in your head and you will have to find a way to overcome it. I wish you strength and peace.

No, no RA for me<living on. Too much guilt from my altar boy days, I am afraid.

Althoughm I suspect I am in the minority inn thinking that an RA is perfectly justified, should a BS have the inclination.

I say this for a couple of reasons. First, as a lawyer, I view the aafair as a material breach of the contract, thus releving the BS of his/her contractual obligation.

Second, I think it is complete crap that a BS having an affair is even close to being as immoral as a Ws doinfg so. There are mitigating factors, notably the decimation of the BS's ego and the attendant disruption of rational thought.

I have sen assertions that a BS cheating is somehow worse, dure to the Bs having first hand knowledge of the devestation. Clearly, that does not hold water , unless the WS was so mentally handicapped the he or she would not know that the affair would wreak havoc(any normally intelligent person would know this).

And, finally a WS would have neither the element of being ambushed or having his or her expectations of fidelity dashed. Again, clearly, it is unreasonable to expect one's spouse to have to unilaterallyabide by a condition one has already violated..

I guess I see life as a period of time, in which each individual is entitled to amass an equal measure of fun and pleasure. When we get to the end of our lives, why is it fair that the WS gets to reflect back on many, many more pleasurable sexual escapades than the BS?