SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My H had 6 1/2 years sober before his relapse. Like your H, he didn't do any recovery work. Then after all that time.... He was depressed. His life sucked. He was bored. He started using again.

Ironic thing was I actually caught him high in the beginning but believed his lies about it. Four years of daily use and two A's later everything falls apart.

I don't want that for you or your H.

I didn't have much success with Alanon...have you tried it?

We have talked and I was very clear - no going back to drinking or I am done.

No, oh its only one. I can forgive a fall off the wagon, ONCE, but there is no way in hell I am accepting it as a lifestyle choice.

He told me that he understood, and that he recognized that it was the wrong thing, and it would not happen again.

We will see.

I do think if he would just give AA a chance, or find a good sponsor, it would open his life up to more happiness and peace.

He just seems so miserable all the time....unless he is drinking, then he is quite chipper. He needs to find some other kind of sunshine...

Sad that you can tell he has been drinking because he has a smile on his face.

Jesus HT you were the last person I would have hoped to find here. SUCKAGE.

My FWH has really slacked off the program and I really do NOT care if he does 12 steps. He could do smart recovery, lifering, men for sobriety, whatever. But he's got to do SOMETHING, that's what it means to be "active" in recovery.

As a recovering addict myself with almost a year of sustained and uninterrupted sobriety through Women for Sobriety, I totally get why I need to reach out and have a daily practice and a weekly practice, to honestly re-establish my habits and thinking patterns.

I do fear his relapse, and if he doesn't get pro-active, it's just inevitable.

And yeah, they liken your addiction to a tiger or monster or dragon who continues to grow even when you don't feed it. That's why many die when they relapse. It's scary, and I really get how it destroys the trust.

On the other hand, many addiction experts say that relapse CAN be part of the learning process, as long as the addict determines what went wrong and makes a plan to ensure such a situation doesn't occur again, or acknowledges that they need more tools.

betrayed, your XWW is not just dealing with addiction, IMHO, but also some narcissistic stuff. As long as she stays away from some intense therapy, she will continue to be toxic.

I love and have so much compassion for all of us in this situation. It is so very tough.

Healingtree-

I wish he would just try going to one AA meeting.

MY FWH (now sober for over 4 yrs) said that when he first went to the meetings (90 meetings in 90 days) he tried a variety of different meetings in different places and at different times of the day. He found that each meeting had a slightly different personality or vibe depending on those attending.

He found one meeting where he felt like he would 'fit' in. He also found some wonderful sponsors.

He continues to go to AA (now just once or twice a week) but I truly believe that AA is responsible for changing his life and our lives.

It's not just about stopping drinking or using drugs or stopping the affair....it's about doing the hard work to take a look at yourself, who you had become, and what you need to do to change your entire way at looking at the world, yourself, etc.

My husband is now so much happier and has such peace.

He was looking for that in a bottle but has found that within himself, in his marriage, in his family. He just looks at the world in a different way.

His positive attitude has been rubbing off on me.

So some kind of regular support group can be life saving.

Please encourage your FWH to find some kind of support.

Like CT said it doesn't have to be AA but something.....

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses. While I understand that the relapse might be something that could spur deeper thought and an outreach for help, I can already see that is not going to happen. He is back to white knuckling it, I can see him just sucking it up. I think it scared him, (course not while he was drinking!) But not enought to seek help. There are so many things in our relationship that are not working, and I believe most of that is because he cannot be happy until he deals with his addiction.

It is hard on the entire family...dealing with the depression, anger, and nearly constant dissatisfaction.

Strange - I can find peace in my heart in nearly any circumstance, but I wonder if peace is something he has ever experienced.

I cannot predict what will happen, only continue to point in the direction that I believe will help, while also being clear about what is unacceptable to me, and will cause major changes.

He is going on a trip "back home" in September. He won't be alone, so there will be some accountablility, but that doesn't really matter - if he is looking for it as an "out" he will find it. I told him that if he takes a drink while he is there, don't bother coming back.

There is no leeway here.

He is trying very hard to be nice, attentive, a "good partner" but I can tell that he is just doing it to get back into good graces. Like if I am ahppy, I will stop shining that bright light on the bigger problem.

Ok, I am finally admitting that I need to be on this thread, too. Last night WH spent our entire week's food money at the bar.

I could have wrote what njgal did,

I too knew he had a drinking problem when we were young and dating in college but..like you..I thought it was just one of those things that kids do in college, that he would mature and outgrow it but I was wrong.

A combo of years of Wh's gaslighting and my denial/naivety prevented me from taking this as seriously as I should have.

Looking forward to learning more about this.

Paperclip-Sorry that you find yourself here but good that you recognize the problem.

Half the battle is realizing that there is a problem.

It might be helpful for you to go back and read the thread 'For Those That Love An Alcoholic-I' a lot of good discussions on there, book suggestions, etc.

Healing tree-

What does he say when you suggest AA to him?

Do you have children?

WOuld it help if there was some kind of intervention?

I just did that with a relative of mine. Her drinking had gotten way out of control. She has adult children (in their 20's) and I finally decided to reach out to them in the hopes that they could say or do something to intervene.

It seems to have made a big impact on her. The drinking has stopped and she is in IC etc.

Just some thoughts.....

I'm coming at the topic of this forum sort of ass-backward. And if I don't belong here, I'll gladly beat as graceful a hasty retreat as I can manage.

I was the one in our marriage with a drinking problem, but my WW was the one who had the EA (well, call it part EA, part psychotic break -- details in my profile in case anyone cares) and who, after a year of false R, wrapped herself in wayward fog and announced she was moving out and wanted a divorce.

I've been thinking more about this history for the past week or so, as I'm a few days away from my one-year soberversary (yay, me), which also makes it close to a year since WW and I separated. I've never really bought WW's claim that she left largely because of my drinking -- for several reasons, it smacks too neatly of wayward blame-shifting -- but I also can't deny that my problem was a serious one and that it did some major damage to our relationship. Or that my drinking -- which I'd cut back almost to zero during the EA and its immediate aftermath -- was rapidly getting worse as our false R started to unravel.

So basically I'm wrestling with the question of whether my drinking falls more or less squarely into the 50% of our marital problems that I get to own -- and thus isn't to blame for the affair, which WW gets to carry on her side of the ledger -- or whether things are more complicated than that.

Similarly, although this may be even further off-topic, I'm also trying to pull my head out of my ass a bit to look more squarely at the damage I did and just how bad my problem was. Even in recovery I think I've had a tendency to minimize all that a bit, partly because I was lucky enough to escape really horrible consequences like DUIs and domestic violence and partly because once I decided to quit, I didn't find it that hard to follow through. No cravings, withdrawal, whiplash mood swings or what have you. I still get -- I don't know if it's the right word, but "nostalgic" is what first comes to mind -- over the thought of a nice microbrew or a glass of pinot noir, but that's about it. Like I said, I'm lucky -- and while it might be better to be lucky than good, I'd like to take the best stab I can at being both.

Let me pause there and see if this is a subject folks here are basically OK with before I carry on any further.

[This message edited by survivorman at 2:06 AM, August 28th (Sunday)]

njgal...

We have four kids, blended family, yours, mine and ours - all school age.

When I talked to him about getting help, he listened but said nothing.

I don't think an intervention would work, especially right now because he has recommited to not drinking, and he sees no problem with that.

It is possible that he is contemplating help, but I cannot read his mind.

He is trying very hard to change externally. Thing is, unless he can find some happiness or peace INTERNALLY, he is still going to end up miserable.

He has issues from his past that he has never ever dealt with, and while it is so obvious to me where the dots connect as far as his past is concerned, he chooses not to look and just press on.

When we get a quiet moment, I will let him know that while I am glad that he is back on the wagon, and can see his efforts, what I really want is for him to find some happiness in his life, and that can't start until he can learn to face everything and recover.

Thanks you guys...

HT

survivorman - first congrats on a year of sobriety, may those years multiply.

Read your profile and its sounds as if you and your WW are moving as well towards a solution as far as S/D as can be expected.

If you are wondering whether you should own part of the problems in your M -well, if the drinking was a consistent problem that your W tried to address with you, and you ignored it, then yes, your action helped to disassemble the M.

Is your drinking a reason to have and A? No. There is no way to justify an A, because if one gets to the point where they are attracted enough to another, IMO, that they would step out of the M, then they should seek help or leave.

There are a lot of shades of grey in this story. For instance, to go through custody issues and NOT be battling over your thoughts of her mental instablility, and her NOT bringing up your addiction issues, it seems that while both of you are struggling with some issues, that you both are concerned more for your child's welfare, which is a good thing.

As far as your drinking, own it. You child deserves a sober parent. And you deserve a better life than following an addiction can offer.

Good luck to you both, and keep up the good work being DAD...most important job you will ever have.

HT

Survivor-If you are asking if your alcoholism had a negative impact on your wife and marriage?

well, the answer is yes.

I was very disappointed and angry and sad and disconnected from my husband due to his alcohol use, depression, overall grouchiness etc.

I often do think now that I look back that I was very vulnerable and if the right situation came along may have been tempted into an affair. But, knowing myself I do not think that I would ever have been able to continue a LTA. I think I would have asked for a divorce.

In fact, I did ask my husband for a divorce two years before d-day! He was smack dab in the middle of the LTA and his depression, drinking, and overall bad attitude was at it's peak.

He convinced me to hang in there...his attitude improved a bit but he kept on drinking and unbeknownst to me the affair continued so when d-day hit- I kicked him out and filed for divorce.

A big reason for me changing my mind about D was his sobriety.

The fact that for the first time in our married life he was making a genuine effort by going to IC 2x per week for 6 months and the 1x per week for another year and most importantly going to AA (starting with 90 meetings in 90 days). I have to admit...that change in attitude on his part definitely got my attention.

And gave me hope for my marriage.

Healing tree- Please urge your husband to go to IC or AA.Stopping drinking is not enough. That's called a 'dry drunk'. They need to do a lot of internal work to get to the root of their problem.

Same is true for infidelity.

Just stopping the affair is not enough. The WS has to go to IC and get to the bottom of the reason for their actions etc.

healingtree,

I agree with njgal. Stopping drinking is not enough. There has to be a change in behavior. Without the change in behavior, they are still an alcoholic, just not drinking. They are still not accepting responsibility for their actions. It'll always be something or someone else that is the problem, not them.

Take care of you. That's all you have control over, not what he'll do.

@healingtree, @njgal480: Many thanks for your notes. One year down as of yesterday, many more to go. Actually, it's been a real revelation to step outside of my drinking. It's to the point now where I sometimes wonder why it was so damn important to me in the first place. That's an insight I surely could have used some time ago.

healingtree wrote this:

If you are wondering whether you should own part of the problems in your M -well, if the drinking was a consistent problem that your W tried to address with you, and you ignored it, then yes, your action helped to disassemble the M.

I'm not really wondering about that. The drinking was a problem -- that's clear now. It had definitely started to weigh on my wife, even though we were both big drinkers when we got married. She started to cut back several years ago; I didn't follow suit. And while it took an unconsionably long time for me to realize it, by the time I was ready to quit, it was quite obvious that my efforts to simply "control" my drinking were failures. There would always be some excuse to tie one on, which would lead to more habitual drinking, then hiding the habitual drinking, and so forth right back down the rathole.

I understand that. I own it. That's been a big part of my recovery.

So my question really wasn't whether my drinking problem caused harm to my marriage -- it's obvious that it did. But around here, our standard formulation is that BS and WS each own 50% of the pre-existing problems in the M, but the WS gets full ownership of the affair. And I find myself pondering from time to time whether things are that simple in my situation.

I mean, I'm still basically OK with the following take on my marriage. While we had problems -- my drinking included -- they weren't anything we couldn't have solved had we really tried. But my WW just gave up on us without any real effort, after which she let down her boundaries and got herself into a fantasized EA and all sorts of subsequent weirdness. After a year of attempted R in which we basically failed to address fundamental issues (my fault as much or more than hers), she up and decided she was done -- but only after going wayward in her thinking again, resurrecting her old bill of complaints in which I was to blame for most everything that went wrong in the marriage, attempting (again) to contact her fantasy OM under false pretenses, etc.

There was a lot of blameshifting going on there. But I have to admit that I'm still struggling to reconcile who I was back then with who I thought I was, and that has me rethinking just how much damage I did while drinking. I've tended to minimize that, because I wasn't a horrible and abusive drunk, I managed to maintain firm boundaries regarding other women (though I had terrible boundaries when it came to alcohol), I was a good dad to our son, I wasn't running up huge bar tabs, I didn't get into fights, I held a good job, etc.

And yet I still drank every day -- sometimes late at night, very occasionally in the morning, often before coming home from work and usually alone. It sapped my lucidity and my energy, and while it seemed to make it easier to deal with the stresses of life, it was also robbing me of my awareness of the present. And, of course, every so often I'd go overboard and create an embarrassing incident. I have no doubt at all that I was a handful to live with.

That said, I still think it's interesting -- though only in a clinical sort of way by this point -- that WW has next to no interest in my sobriety. A year ago, just prior to the separation, she claimed that she couldn't believe I'd follow through with quitting because "we've tried this before" -- when in fact I'd never embraced abstinence before. It makes a huge difference. (The old saying that "it's easier to stick with 'no thanks' than 'I'll have just one'" was certainly true in my case.) In fact, about the only time she's even acknowledged it was in making a (justifiable yet selfish) decision that really complicated my attendance at the regular recovery meeting I now convene.

If that all seems like a muddle to any of you who are still reading -- well, welcome to my world. On the one hand, I've long assigned very little weight to WW's stated reasons for leaving the marriage (including, hilariously, her insistence that she "couldn't trust" me because I had the audacity to snoop on her email, journal and Internet use during her EA). That includes her complaints about my drinking, which have been inconsistent and often situational.

On the other hand, I'm gradually reassessing my own culpability during the marriage as I gain some distance from it. Which is leading me to the uncomfortable realization that perhaps WW wasn't as completely full of shit on this particular point as I'd previously thought -- even if this was really was still a problem that we really could have gotten our hands around had we both worked it hard enough.

Sorry for the long-winded post. Epiphanies don't come quickly to me.

[This message edited by survivorman at 1:52 PM, August 30th (Tuesday)]

Survivorman-

First of all I want to congratulate you on your sobriety. It sounds as if it was not easy for you to get to where you are now.

I am sending good thoughts your way and hoping that you will continue to stay strong in your sobriety.

Do you attend AA?

My husband did the 90 meetings in 90 days and then continued for 5 days per week for years...now he goes at least once a week and does check in with his sponsor.

I think AA was key to so many positive changes in my husband. As you know stopping drinking is not enough. You really do have to change your whole way of thinking, your way of looking at the world.

That is another way that AA has helped my husband.

Your drinking pattern sounds very much like what my FWH was like-a functional alcoholic who held down a professional job, still interracted with the kids etc. but would have occasional binge drinking episodes...

I'm sorry that your WW is not more enthusaistic about your sobriety.You would think she would be thrilled if only for the children.

Perhaps she does not quite believe that the sobriety is real and lasting.

Hopefully in time you will be able to show her that your sobriety is real and that in addition to stopping drinking you have been working on yourself to become a better person.

My husband's sobriety was the single biggest reason that I reconsidered D and agreed to try to R.

He made such huge strides that he definitely got my attention eventhough I was heartbroken over the LTA.

Another reason for your WW's indifference could be because she is still in contact with the OM and she is still in the 'fog' of the affair? Is the OM married?

At this point she may think that she has this back up plan and so cannot invest herself in trying to save the marriage.

I am sorry that she is not interested in saving the marriage. Maybe this will change...maybe not.

But, I hope that whatever she decides it does not impact your sobriety.

Try to do it for yourself, for your children. You deserve a , a more authentic life better life.

AA could probably help you deal with all of this.

@njgal: I don't go to AA -- I don't think it would be a good fit for me. I am active in a secular recovery group, and I'm responsible for convening a weekly meeting.

Frankly, whether my WW is enthusiastic about my sobriety or not is beside the point so far as I'm concerned. I only mentioned it because I think her silence makes an interesting contrast with the level of unhappiness she expressed about my problem just before leaving and subsequently at a mediation session where we squared off over my drinking problem on one hand and her batshittery on the other.

In other words, I think she milked my drinking for all it was worth as an excuse for her own behavior, just as you'd expect from a wayward. Which does not for one second mean I didn't have a real problem, just that she's an unreliable narrator on the subject.

I doubt WW will ever want to recover the marriage. I think she's deeply broken and hasn't come close to figuring out what went wrong. I obviously didn't make things easy on her, but I also didn't bail on the marriage or go looking for answers outside of it.

Anyway, I decided early on that I wasn't getting sober for WW, but for myself and my son. And that hasn't changed. So whatever she does or doesn't do, I'm secure in my decision and happy with it -- because it's mine.

By the way, there apparently never was a real OM. Well, there's a real guy -- a college BF of WW -- and he did correspond secretly with WW for several months. But the conversation wasn't remotely romantic, although it was intimate enough for my unmoored WW to project romantic intimations onto it, to announce she wanted to leave me for him, and to spend months stalking the guy to see if he was going to leave his wife so they could be together. OMW knew all about it and says there was nothing to it; so does OM (for whatever that's worth). It was quite the picnic.

Also, for whatever it's worth, my drinking never came up when she was categorizing my faults during the EA itself. That only emerged a year later when she finally did bail out. Go figure.

[This message edited by survivorman at 7:24 PM, August 30th (Tuesday)]

survivor-

Glad to hear that you attend a regular support group and that you are involved in convening the group.

Hopefully, you can continue to peek in herenow and then and offer some insights to the spouses of alcoholics.

Glad to hear that you sound so strong in your sobriety.

You are doing it for the right reasons.

It really does sound as if your WW is in a real fog. That she romanticized something that never existed...which would explain why she vilified everything to do with the marriage. So sorry to hear that you do not think that there is hope for reconciliation.

I have a friend who blew up her marriage right around her 50th birthday.The final kicker was a chance meeting with her junior high school crush! yes... a total crazy teenage fantasy thing.

Did she have some legitimate complaints? yes?

She ended up divorcing and destroying her family. Five years later is she happy? not really. She has been considering R with the ex but seems mixed up in her priorities etc. Sad situation.

Sometimes that mid life crisis really does wreak havoc on people's lives.

Wishing you all the best.

Many thanks, njgal480. I appreciate the sounding board; I think it let me figure out a few things that might otherwise have taken a while longer on my own.

If I can be of assistance to others, I'll gladly do what I can. I'll do my best to pop by from time to time.

I hope your friend finds her way clear of the MLC. I suspect that's not a bad description of what my STBX went through, either.

I wish there was a way that you could tell who was logged in. I really need to talk to someone who understands this.

I've pretty much avoided posting on SI for about 3 months now. The drinking has gotten so much out of hand and I now live just a mean drunk. This is how he chooses to handle his STRESS.

First he was addicted to food, then work, then online porn/sex; now it's booze.

People advised me to attend group for spouses. I went through this 2 times over. My Grandfather was an alcoholic and so was my Mom. Now my H.

It's ruining the relationships with his/our family. It's only a matter of time before it creeps into his work/professional world.

Funny thing is he admits it, regrets it, talks about it, but won't or can't do anything about it. Wants to keep it a secret (where have I heard THAT one before!!!?)

I barely came out alive from the infidelity thing. I can't save him. I don't have energy enough to keep ME going some days!!!

I just feel lost.

(((Newtwood)))

You can't save him. It's his problem, not yours. You can't save him from himself, only he can chose to make the changes in his life to make it better.

Helping hide it only enables the behavior to continue. That's enabling. It allows the alcoholic to avoid facing the consquences of his actions.

You mention he knows it is bad, but continues. That is an alcoholism, it is a very strong disease. But, it is a disease that there is a choice with. Yet, it is his choice to make.

Words are meaningless with an active alcoholic. He can tell you what he he thinks you hear just to get you to stop pointing out his problem to him. It's actions, not words that count. Until he seeks AA or counseling, it won't get better. Very few can change on their own and get into active recovery. Some never do... Others can stop drinking although they never change the alcoholic behavior... a dry drunk. Yet, if he does hit his bottom, gets help, and make the changes, there is hope.

You need to get help for you. That is where you have control. Not over what he'll do, but what you'll do. Get into IC, Al-Anon, your clergy, or close friends. Don't go through this alone because of his fear of shame or yours. Take care of yourself first and foremost. You are not alone.

[This message edited by betrayed1012 at 12:24 AM, September 6th (Tuesday)]