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(((island toby)))

I don't have any great words of wisdom, but your story is very similar to mine. I just want you to know you've been heard, and that someone cares.

njgal, thank you for the book titles. I'm stuck on the plain of lethal flatness, and I need some info.

for the last year and a half, I have been 180. He finally noticed a few months ago, and he has made some changes, none of them involving alcohol, though. Funny, with a habit you've developed, it's been difficult responding to him, since I've formed the habit of being pleasant, while ignoring him most of the time.

One thing that is not going to change going forward, is that I will take responsibility for myself first. Time has shown me that I cannot ever depend on him for anything.

Hugs to everyone here.

njgal480- thank you for the book rec. I'll look it up.

My husband has done 90/90 multiple times but will drink on the way there or on the way home. We live in a remote area and I've heard from other friends in the program that they all know he is still drinking but lying about it- they can smell it on him. I made the mistake of telling him that about 6 months ago and now, when he does go to meetings, he drives about 45 mins away to stay away from the area people that know him. I'm sure that those people in the away meetings feel the same way.

He needs to get a sponsor and work the steps but, I think, he is terrified of pulling all his crap into the light of day. He claims that his biggest problem in AA is believing that there is a HP. I do love him so much- he is such a good man, with such a horrible problem.

His current way of getting money for beer illustrates the depth of his addiction. He has no access to money, checks, or debit cards because of his addiction. He does, however, have a Lowes and Home Depot card because he is self employed in construction. I discovered that he will buy $60 of copper pipe, cut it up and drive a few blocks to the metal recycle place and turn it in for $15- enough for a 12 pack of beer. We are struggling, pinching pennies, broke all the time and he spends $60 on a 12 pack? It makes me physically sick.

Wasn't quite sure where to post this, but thought you guys might have an opinion or two....

Backstory: XWS has been gone for a year now. He has visits with DD5 3x/wk. He is averaging about a 60% in his ability to show up. Failed drug tests, visits to prostitutes, etc. keep him away. The latest is he got into a brawl and got his face beaten to a pulp, and a concussion. He is 39 yo, for goodness sakes. He is not allowed to see her until he is healed.

So, here is my question. He is alcoholic/druggie/SA. I am thinking of getting his friends together for an intervention. I am really torn about this as I don't know if I really want to involve myself with him to this degree, but hate seeing any human, much less my daughters father sink so low. His own father left when he was 10, and died of alcoholism when he was 12. History seems to be repeating itself.

What do you think, guys? Let the karma bus keep running him over, or try to help?

PS- I am a bit of a control freak, and a gullible loving gal to boot, so really doubting myself with this one.

Any opinions or insights or 2*4's welcome.

bent44,

Sorry you and your DD are going through this. Neither of you deserve it.

I don't know about interventons. I doubt you would be the one to do it. First, you mention you tend to control. Any addict/alcoholic aways push back at feeling someone else has control even if they can't manage their life. Thin line between helping and enabling. Even if you didn't try to control, your WS would probably feel like mine and rationalize that you were as an excuse.

As sad as it may be, until an addict/alcoholic reaches a point at which they realize they have to change or they will die, there is little or nothing others can do to make them. He may dry out for awhile, but long term sobriety requires a change within that person. A change in the behaviors that allows them to not accept responsibility for their actions and fate. Some never come to that realization. But, as one counselor said to me, there is always hope. Hope that they reach that conclusion before it is too late.

Maybe an intervention would work, but only if the person wants it to. It may be able to help him, but it won't make him change unless he wants to. Can you be involved? Probably not. Have you read "Codependant No More" by Beatty? It may help release you from feeling the need to save your WS and help you realize that is his to do.

All you have control over is what you will do, not what your alcoholic WS will do. It is most important you protect the DD from his disease as she has done nothing to deserve what it is doing and has done to her. Take care of yourself and your DD.

[This message edited by betrayed1012 at 11:03 AM, November 14th (Monday)]

Thank you betrayed 1012,

I would not do it alone. Would hire a pro and have all of his (ex)driends involved. I just don't know if I even want to bother.

Am leaning towards no, but will consult with my counselor tomorrow to see what she thinks.

Thank you again! And, yes I own Codependent No More- It is part of a whole shelf of healing books....damn him.

Island Toby-

Sorry for what you are dealing with... geez... buying copper and selling it at a loss to pay for his alcohol habit....and he still has not hit bottom?

Have you ever considered an intervention?

Bent- I think an intervention is worth a try.

For your DD's sake.

Do his friends and family know how bad things have gotten? Would they agree to an intervention?

Not sure if you should be there or not.That depends...on how you think your ex would react. Would your presence at the intervention give him an excuse not to agree to go to rehab? he could say you are controlling him?

But...you could take the behind the scenes role of organizing and planning the intervention.

IMHO I think its worth a shot.

phoenix- I know what it's like to be stuck in that lethal flatness. I was there for many years. I detached from his alcoholism and focused on myself and my kids and being the best person I could be....he made some changes over the years but never stopped drinking.

And then during the LTA he become even more depressed, detached, grouchy and remose-drinking everyday by himself....I had no clue that his detached behavior could be a symptom of an affair!

But, that was when all hell broke lose in our house! I kicked him out of the house and filed for D. He was finally forced to take a real good look at himself. And he hit bottom.And he got sober.

And since then everything has changed.

I wish all of your spouses could understand how wonderful their lives could be if only they could stop drinking, using drugs etc.

[This message edited by njgal480 at 7:19 PM, November 14th (Monday)]

Island Toby-

Sorry for what you are dealing with... geez... buying copper and selling it at a loss to pay for his alcohol habit....and he still has not hit bottom?

Have you ever considered an intervention?

njga- BTDA and have the treatment certificate to prove it. This was done before he went into inpatient treatment the first time. He has been to inpatient programs twice and spent over a year in outpatient "relapse prevention"- just "graduating" from it last month. He drank all the way through it.

I think he is just at the point where he is drinking enough to maintain some level of alcohol in his system- its not even daily and he is no longer drinking to visibly drunk anymore and to his alcoholic mind that means he can drink like a normie. Of course, a normie wouldn't be doing the crazy stuff he is doing and a normie doesn't regularly drink at 6 am, or in his vehicle, or all the other stuff.

Back to the idea of intervention. He has stated that the first time he went to treatment (after our intervention) that he felt forced into it. He got about 38 days under his belt that time. He also said, during the 2nd inpatient that he was there for HIM, but now says he felt forced into it again. He made it about 40 days that time

If you are familiar with AA meetings, when they read the How It Works section, it starts with this:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.

Sadly, this is my husband. He is incapable of honesty at this point of his life. He has spent his entire life lying to make himself look better, lying to keep out of trouble, and lying to himself about the events of his childhood. I think the pain of honesty scares him and that breaks my heart.

His birthday was yesterday. I left for some errands and know that he immediately left right after me and went to the metal recycler because he had a bunch of old stainless and brass in his work van when I left and when I came home it was gone. I'm so sad

Sadly, this is my husband.

He is incapable of honesty at this point of his life. He has spent his entire life lying to make himself look better, lying to keep out of trouble, and lying to himself about the events of his childhood. I think the pain of honesty scares him and that breaks my heart.

Island Toby,

I am so sorry you are dealing with this pain. Loving an alcohlic is just so....jeeze, i need more cofee to find the right words.

I just wanted to thank you for the above quote. Sadly, I think we are in the same boat. Your words heve helped me today. I am sending hugs your way.

((bent44)) I'm glad I've helped you in some way. I wouldn't wish living with an alcoholic on anyone. You wonder just how many *hits* your heart can take, don't you?

He is such a good man in so many other ways. What kind of people do something like this to their own children? Both his sister and brother are alcoholics as well.

Interesting about the lying quote.

After we R my husband was 100% transparent with all his email etc. and I used to check a lot more than I do now..but when I was checking things out I found a draft of his speech for AA-the one they make when they tell their story to the whole group.

He had not shared it with me and it was not complete...it was just his childhood story...but what he said was that he began to lie about things during his childhood.

I guess that is a character flaw of most alcoholics?

Lying to others, lying to themselves especially.

Since going to AA my husband has been fanatical about being honest. I noticed it right away. His comittment to living his life in a totally different way.

God, or your higer power is working for you and your husband.

This is your time to STAND!

njgal,

It is really nice to hear some of these guys really seem to get it! The odds of sobriety are so low, it warms my heart to hear of your H success! Cheers (with Martinelli's) to you both.

Island Toby,

Yes, living with them is so darned hard. Mine is now an XWS, but due to me supervising his visits with DD5, I spend a lot of time with him. Unfortunately, he is really on a downward spiral. It breaks my heart.

Just to update the intervention question I posed, I had a very interesting session with IC today. She pointed out that just the energy of trying to organize an intervention would be taking away from my DD5 and my own healing. She also said forcing him into the position of going into rehab would likely backfire, and I would bare the brunt of his resentment. She also brought up some concerns about his lying (he is making up some really bizarre stuff these days that is not even in defense of his disease). Her implication was that whatever is going on with him may be much deeper than what can be dealt with. The poor guy is SA, a drunk, a druggie, financially a disaster, a chronic liar/manipulator, molested his own sister when he was a teenager, and has even stated he is concerned he is a sociopath.

However, he is 39 years old, knows where help is should he want it, and resents the heck out of any suggestions I make about his well being....so, at this point, if an intervention is going to happen, it looks like I won't be the one doing it. Unfortunately, he is estranged from his family and any healthy friends he had. It really is very sad. He is not the man I married (or maybe he is not the man I THOUGHT I married).

I am afraid he may never get it.

At this point, though, I think I need to focus more on DD5 and my lifeboat. This has wreaked havoc in our lives. I can't afford to have him take me down with him. I am all she has.

Thank you guys again for your insight and advice. If you think my counselor is off base, please let me know. It sounds like my mind is made up, but my heart still hurts for his situation.

Sweet dreams to you all!

[This message edited by bent44 at 9:37 PM, November 15th (Tuesday)]

heart in a blend-

I do believe that there was divine intervention in my FWH finally getting sober and in our reconciliation.

bent44-

I think your counselor's advice is very good.You do need to take care of yourself and your child.

I did not realize that your ex was so far gone.If he is estranged from all of his family and friends then there is no leverage that can be used....he's lost everything already and has still not hit bottom....

What you need to do now is to try to protect your DD from being exposed to any of his craziness.

njgal,

Thank you for your support. After that last verbal diarrhea post, I was worried some 2*4's were coming my way.

DD5's counselor is insistent that visitation with XWS is best for her until she is 8 yo. So, we have tons of guidelines in place to keep she and I safe.

I cannot tell you guys how darned sad all of this is. But, we will all make it though!

Thank you guys again for listening. Your support means the world to me.

Another pat on the back to your H for his sobriety. I am routing for him.

bent-I hope he has supervised visits with your DD.

njgal,

Oh, heck yeh! And I am the supervisor. I know that is kind of crazy, but he can be so charming that I don't trust anyone else with her safety. It has meant 14 hours of hell/ week for me, but she is worth every second. My counselor jokes that my healing will be thorough!

bent44,

I'm so thankful my X has her mother supervising her visits. I don't think I could take it. Her father and brother are also approved to supervise, but she's alienated them and only uses her mother.

I guess your healing will be thorough, but peeling the scab off every week does make it take a long time. Worth it to make certain DD is safe.

My husband "fell off the wagon" again yesterday.

When there is 2 OW, one the ugly cow and the other alcohol, it truly sucks. It is so hard not to wrap them both together and go off the deep end each time he slips with the alcohol.

Of course, it had to be 2 days before the holiday. His drinking has basically wrecked just about every holiday we have had throughout our marriage. It is a wonder that our kids even want to be here for them.

I wish I had an answer for you. My WH has been in recovery for four years. He chose AA over his family and is having an affair with a woman from AA. He never made ammends to me or our children. He acts so righteous and he makes me ill.

I wish I could understand how they do it. It would make a difference to us that are left to deal with the pain while they never suffer a consequence for the poor choices they have made.

Island Toby-

so sorry to hear this.

The only thing that you can do is detach from his drinking.

Do you expect him to continue drinking through Thanksgiving? If so..is there a way for you and your children to celebrate Thanksgiving away from him?

You and your children deserve a nice, stress free holiday...without having to deal with a drunken husband and father at the table.