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Nice one, Marzipan.

Good advice.

I am absolutely with marzipan.

There is no way on Earth that your WW is going to be able to interpret what you wrote. And the truth is, she probably won't even understand marzipan's shorter, blunter approach.

Words will have very little effect...although they need to be said. It is the actions that show results. When she KNOWS that you have spoken to an attorney, when she KNOWS that you have/are separating finances, and when she KNOWS that you are exposing to others----this is what will get her attention.

It is always said around here to not believe a wayward's words, but to look at their ACTIONS to see if they back up those words. The same goes for the betrayed. Words mean very little if you are not willing to back them up. And until your WW sees this, do not be surprised if she does very little to change her ways.

But when you get to the point that you can and will end this marriage, she may take notice. And maybe not. But the important part will be that YOU will now have the personal strength to do so, if necessary.

extremely good advice from marzipan.

because she is *so* unwell:

it's not about how you feel, now.

the very fact that it's not about how you feel, how your children are being impacted, how the larger family is being put at risk, is the very problem.

and so dealing with her as though she might be an honest participant in your marriage, in her parenting, in the larger family, is not efficient.

deal with the selfish predator that she has allowed herself to become.

I wish you strength.

Traildad-

My heart breaks for you.

I haven't written before as you have been given great advice from others, but now that you are ready to strike:

Marzipan cuts right to the chase. Excellent!!

I have seen it said many times here "pack her shit in bags and have her find it on the lawn" (or something to that effect).

Sweetie, she is using you like a discarded wash rag. YOU ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THAT!!

File those papers, kick her ass to the curb, take a deep breath, and hugs those kiddies.

I must say she seems to be one of the worst waywards I have read about here.

I am sorry for you, but you will come out on the other side.

(((((hugs))))

Marzi gave you the words and jb gave you the reasoning.

While *I* thought what you wrote was heart-warming, your WW is not gonna *get it*.

That's why I agree with jb. You need to take some serious action. I have spent almost 4 years trying to deal with my dumbass WH, only to have him continue in his dumbassness.

I have made it very clear that I am following through with the D papers I filed, I separated my cell phone from his account and I am pretty much total NC with him. The past 24 hours he has been freaking out. Why? Because he now KNOWS that I am done dealing with his bullshit and I've taken my ball and gone home. Game time over, darlin'.

The actions you take will either force her head out of her ass or free her to go about her business. Either way that I look at it...win/win for you. I feel a little insensitive describing it as win/win since I'm sure it doesn't feel that way to you, but traildad? Right now you are in a total LOSE situation.

Take care and good luck. (((hugs)))

I have now let a few close friends know about the situation. Mostly those that would give her a safe place to go, but are also friends of the marriage and won't let her keep doing this sh*t. She is acting desperate and I don't want her to feel cornered, cause she really does need help, even if her and I are done. I still care about her and don't want her to do anything to hurt herself. I know her mom is gonna have to know as well. Just not sure whether to tell her before or after the confrontation. Sigh. This is brutal.

BTW. The 180 has allowed me to detach and make these tough decisions with a clear mind. In my mind, the 180 is absolutely essential when dealing with a WS in the "fog". It's still not easy, but I feel the decisions being made now are not "knee jerk". Concern #1 in my mind right now is her safety, she is not well.

She is acting desperate and I don't want her to feel cornered, cause she really does need help, even if her and I are done. I still care about her and don't want her to do anything to hurt herself.

I'm so sorry, TD, but this is the sort of thing that you will have to learn to let go.

This comes in Advanced Detachment class.

Right now, you're where you still feel that she needs help, and somehow there is something you can do that will give it to her.

Why not help? How can we abandon these people to their own trainwrecks? Unfortunately she's hellbent on driving this crazy train to hell, and she's buckled her seatbelt. All you can do is jump off and hope you don't land on the tracks in front of her.

Oh dear, I feel that zombie story coming on again. TD, your WW has been bitten by zombies. She is now one of them. She looks like your wonderful wife, but sadly sadly sadly, that woman is gone. What inhabits her now only has one thing on her mind, and that is to eat your brain. She lives in the swamp, and will cry pathetically in the muck for you to come help her. You get anywhere near her--reach out that hand--and you'll be lucky to get away with burning swamp slime on you. You are only safe as long as you stay out of the swamp!

It took me many trips into the swamp to learn this. My own WH cried about how lost he was, how out of control his life had become, and so I reached out many times (we'd been married almost 18 years, how could I abandon him, right?) And every time I thought I was making a difference, helping him regain his integrity, he turned around and rolled in the slime again. He's my XWH now. And I stay out of the swamp.

Concern #1 in my mind right now is her safety, she is not well.

traildad, I used to have to fly a lot for business. I still remember most of the flight attendants safety dance (pointing to the exists, the seatbelt demo which can look surprisingly sexy if done right, the oxygen mask). There is one piece of advice in the standard speach that you really need to pay attention to right now.

...put on your own oxygen mask and make sure that it is functioning before attempting to assist anyone travelling with you...

You can't help her until you help yourself first. If she needs to be saved, you can do that later, after you are safe.

Well - I just gave her a letter that stated something very similar to what Marzipan stated, while she was on the phone with OM. I wanted to talk all afternoon, but she was on the phone, so I wrote it out and gave it to her.

She immediately hung up and followed me and said "No, No, you can't do this". I said we can talk about the M once you have cut all contact with OM. She said "you can't do that, he's just my friend, you can't do that, he's just my friend." I repeated my statement about contact. Then she said "I am not having an affair, it is just a friend". To which I repeated my statement again. She stormed away saying fine "I'm calling him now" and walked down the street. Yet to return.

Right now I'm standing up and applauding.

Update - she claims to have gone NC. Now she is begging and pleading with me to let her stay friends with him "if she reduces contact". So our marriage is hanging by a thread, and her biggest concern is being allowed contact with OM??? Is this typical?

Now she is starting on about refusing counseling. Telling me that I just want to drag her name theough the mud. Etc.

You have to stay strong. I told my WW point blank that she made me sick to my stomach, and I had no idea how she slept at night. I asked her "Who are you?????" She then spent MONTHS trying to win me back. If you even want the slightest hope of this working out, you have to stand strong and move toward divorce. She has to know that you're seriously done. It is now her job to change your mind over the next several months. Trust me. If you just get mad, pout, and then have make up sex tonight, she won't change a thing. Good luck my man! I'm rooting for you.

So our marriage is hanging by a thread, and her biggest concern is being allowed contact with OM??? Is this typical?

Yes, it is bargaining. She doesn't want to give up her "drug" that gives her ego a boost with every contact with OM.

I'm assuming you didn't agree to this.

And....you will not believe how indeed normal it is. She is a "cake-eater" She wants him, but also wants you.

She keeps saying I am controlling her by telling her who she can be friends with, etc. how do I avoid getting sucked into these no-win arguments? I can't leave cause I'm here with the kids. I so badly just want to explain to her all the crazy shit she is doing (how 6 hours on the phone to one person is nuts no matter what situation) but I know it won't get through to her, as many on here have said.

"If you even want the slightest hope of this working out, you have to stand strong and move toward divorce. She has to know that you're seriously done. It is now her job to change your mind over the next several months. Trust me. If you just get mad, pout, and then have make up sex tonight, she won't change a thing"

Spot on!!!

[This message edited by toby at 3:05 PM, April 13th (Friday)]

I've exposed to a few friends. I'm still debating about her mom.

Should I tell her I've exposed??

Is OM married?

She keeps saying I am controlling her by telling her who she can be friends with, etc. how do I avoid getting sucked into these no-win arguments?

You tell her she's in control of her own decisions and you yours. She gets to chose.....her lover or her husband!!!

But of course, going NC doesn't mean you will automatically stay in the marriage....right?

>>She keeps saying I am controlling her by telling her who she can be friends with, etc.

The two words "too bad" come to mind. While she was having an affair and flushing your marriage down the toilet, how many times did she think "too bad" about you? So the score is like 2017 to 1. You got lots of room left, buddy.

>> how do I avoid getting sucked into these no-win arguments?

These are not no-win. They are you-win, cheating-whore-loses. What she is doing is COMPLETELY inappropriate for a married woman. Get it? There is NO excuse and you telling her this plain and simple fact has NOTHING TO DO with you being controlling. It's about you trying to save your marriage.

If she doesn't care about your marriage than that is her deal, not yours. It's certainly not going to improve if she insists on contact with this other person who she used to pour gasoline on your marriage and light a match with.