SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Have you directed your BH here? He may need a different outlet for discussing how he is feeling and your MC is a ways away.

I know that reading here made me even more certain that revenge was not what I wanted.

And regarding his feelings of having a leg up on you, I think those should fade as you both heal. Mine have. I am still proud as hell that despite what fWH put me through, even before DDay, I did the right things. But I am proud because of what it says about me, and not as a measuring stick. At the time of the A, fWH was not a healthy person. That is not the case now and I am not interested in one-upping this guy. We were once a team, and that's what I want. An RA, or continued comparisons of who is the better person only interferes with that.

Honestly, and I mean this to be helpful, you do need to suck it up a bit. Just like he does in accepting that he can't control what you do, either.

Acknowledge his feelings. Tell him that they are normal, and that you know that what you did has caused it but you love him and want to be with him, and you don't want anything to make it harder for him than it already is.

(((messedupchick)))

My fWH had two affairs after I had two "incidents." He claims they weren't RA - and I believe him, although he used what I did as justification for his. AND, he was in so much pain, emasculated, etc that he WAS vulnerable. I even warned him that the next person most likely to have an affair is the BS.

He has said to me that the vows were already broken - again more justification.

Because of this we are now on equal territory. No, marriage shouldn't be about power but in our case it is and I'm not sure why. I can tell you for sure that one of the reasons I had my first A is that I felt simply powerless in my marriage. I'm not sure why and talk about a poor excuse to have an affair...

We haven't gotten to the bottom of this aspect yet. We are still reeling from what's been done the past 2.5 years. Tell your BS that if he does this it puts you both back to square one. I'm not sure marriages can recover from both parties having an affair. Jury is out for me, although we're trying.

He isn't doing anything to help himself get healthy or heal. At the end of the day, he wants to forget about it all and move on quickly from it. He has never yelled at me for cheating yet

Do you know why he rugsweeps? Why he wants to move on so quickly? Why he won't yell and struggles with the RA idea?

He.is.terrified.of.losing.you

You confessed and told him you want R. In that conversation he went from potentially losing you to getting you back. He doesn't want to upset that at all. He wants his W. He wants his family. In the moment of that confession he never felt more helpless in his life (excepting the deaths of loved ones of course). From your posts your BH comes across as somewhat stoic. Still waters do run deep. He is hurting and it is because he is still very afraid of losing you.

I also agree that ultimately, you cannot control your spouse...you can only control yourself.  If your BS wants to go and have a RA - he will find a way.  Many, not all, of us BS's have thought about or threatened to do this at some point post dday...I was one who threatened but never did engage in one.  I have certainly had opportunities - but I just couldn't go there for many reasons.

I truly believe that those of us BS's who have very poor coping skills are more vulnerable to a RA. Let's face it...coping with the discovery of an A is extremely difficult.  Some of us post trauma of infidelity turn to past bad behaviors (drugs, alcholol, another man/woman, etc.) that helped us deal with other life experiences and FOO issues.  Others replace one bad behavior/coping mechanism with another - thinking they aren't doing anything wrong. They act this way in order to somehow, someway relieve the agonizing pain of betrayal - none will lead to proper healing - the pain is all masked!  The pain is still there, issues aren't addressed and in the end, a true R is never accomplished.  And through these means, the person acting out of pain is only hurting themselves and potentially all family members who have been affected by the original betrayal.  What a mess....

For me, I didn't cope too well either.  My pain was manifested by me being in a state of perpetual anger.   I walked the line of sadness and anger for the first year or so...I would curse, yell, scream and throw things when my pain surfaced - which happened a lot.  It took much self reflection and patience in my FWH to get me through that stage.  In the end, my anger wasn't good for my family - I had to change or destroy my beautiful family that I had spent years raising in a loving environment - this way of coping was far from loving.

My point is this - your H is in pain - the worst kind of pain that was done to him by the person he loved the most in the world.  He is trying desperately to cope - the fight or flight response defintely present here.  He is lashing out in anger by telling you he wants a RA.  At least he is vocalizing his anger and not keeping it in...you can try to comfort him when he does this; although, you ultimately can't control him.  Where one needs to worry is when the BS acts and proceeds to move forward with their spouse, saying they are committed to R and to healing as a couple- when in actuality, the BS is also secretly scheming to engage in their own revenge affair!  That kind of plotting, knowing full well what an affair ultimately does to a family, is beyond mind boggling.

[This message edited by Dance4Me at 2:48 PM, September 18th (Tuesday)]

I believe that most things said in anger come from a place of pain. In that pain is turmoil and confusion. In that turmoil and confusion we often grasp at what we percieve to be the easiest way out. Often, the way we got in.

What bothers you the most in what your BH says? Is it, the cheating? Or is it who he has to become to cheat?

We are all aware of the ugly, self destructive, selfish place a wayward HAS to go to have an affair. They HAVE to kill/suffocate part of their Goodness/Integrity. The road back aint easy.

Have you sat your husband down and fully explained how you feel about you? Have you made yourself completely vulnerable and explained how being the wayward makes you feel?

UO once posted about the affair being soul-suicide to her. My husband read that thread, to this day, that is still how he refers to it.

RA, being only the AP, being only a WS or AP/WS in one. Is tomayto- tomahto.

My BS had a RA and the damage it created lead to insurmountable obstacles for R. Being Madhatters is such a chaotic situation. Although i believe people certainly can R as madhatters, for me, it makes it harder to "do whatever it takes to R" when there is so much resentment and distrust on both sides. We had As for different reasons. The fact that he purposely hurt me by seeking revenge makes the path to healing that much harder. We are now in the D process.

Thanks again everyone for your posts. I have read them all and taking time to think about them.

cormachemingway: thanks for the reply. I do worry that he will have a lot of opportunity coming up to do what your wife did. By the end of November, he might be away at work. By then I hope we are going to be in a better place and his feelings of wanting to act out in a RA would fade.

Lucky:

IMO one big difference between an A and an RA is motivation.

I believe that *most* WS dont consciously say "I think I will go cheat on my BS today"

But the RA is a diff animal. After experiencing the pain of an A, the WBS purposely and maliciously intends to inflict that horror on the person they want to R with.

That math only leads to disaster

That is soo true. I talked to him about the different motivations and how the 2 types of A's have to be treated differently. Except I did consciously think about cheating on my BH when I was on AM. That is what has him really pissed off more than if I had gotten drunk and fooled around with some.

BHIgirl:

It may sound good as a thought, but overall, it's never the best idea. I know personally, I would feel like shit if I did that, not only because it would also make me a cheater, but I would have let my morals and beliefs go.

Yeah that's pretty much what he said after the conversations were ending about it. Except it's now come up twice so it has me jumpy that it's been on his mind a lot.

floridaredman:

One thing you can do is practice holding back the tears.

That automatically puts you in a place to be comforted when he is basically telling you he is hurting.

I do not think your BH would go through with it..he is merely telling you how he feels. He wants to even the score so to speak,he feels duped. He knows "evening the score" would not even make things better because he would then compromise his integrity.

He's on the rollercoaster and hurting very much.

I believe when he's says this he is just looking for comfort and venting

I *DO* need to practice holding back the tears and not just when he talks about RA. I have been pretty good but any time RA has come up, it sends me into tears automatically. It has angered him if I cry during our A talks in general. He does not want to feel like he should comfort me but hates seeing me upset at the same time. He doesn't understand or even realize this rollercoaster that he's on but I have first row seats to it. I try to help him every step of the way, it's just hard when he keeps it all bottled up and then it spews out through RA talk and random triggers.

DWBH: Thank you very much for sharing your quotes of encouragement as a BS with me. It is powerful.

aesir:

The way you describe your BH, he has a far more powerful urge not to cheat, and if he is anything at all like me, when he is so upset that he would actually be willing to cheat... well in that state I was a very unattractive mess.

Yes you are right. He does have a very powerful urge not to cheat. He has talked to me about his boundaries and wow, he is impressive. Any woman would feel lucky to marry a man with the integrity that my BH has. He did tell me that he actually couldn't go through with cheating because he would have to be literally out of his freaking mind and insanely drunk to do it which would make it so he couldn't cheat anyways.

cdnmommy:

Have you directed your BH here? He may need a different outlet for discussing how he is feeling and your MC is a ways away.

I have tried. I have brought up SI on the computer, tried to show him stuff here and encouraged him to register. I told him that no one cares if he isn't the best at typing or spelling. They would be supportive of him and in a 'manly' way as he told me that he doesn't wish to talk about his feelings with other people. He just doesn't feel comfortable with talking about it.

Honestly, and I mean this to be helpful, you do need to suck it up a bit. Just like he does in accepting that he can't control what you do, either.

Acknowledge his feelings. Tell him that they are normal, and that you know that what you did has caused it but you love him and want to be with him, and you don't want anything to make it harder for him than it already is.

I'm trying to suck it up. It's hard.. which is why I'm trying to get advice on this since I know I need help in this dept.

That is one thing I have been doing right. I did tell him it's normal to have the feelings of revenge. I always try to acknowledge his feelings as being natural and that I want to help him. But when he's feeling all triggery, it's hard to get him out of that funk. I tell him that I love him very much, always want to be with him and he says back to me is 'no you don't'. I reassure him that I love him and sometimes he softens up and sometimes he just insists that he doesn't feel loved by me. I makes me very sad that I made my BH feel so unloved.. Especially when I love him with all my heart.

Brandon:

Do you know why he rugsweeps? Why he wants to move on so quickly? Why he won't yell and struggles with the RA idea?

Yes and no. I know that he tries to rugsweep because he knows that I would not have cheated if we had lived together. HE KNOWS that my A's are 100% my fault and doesn't accept any blame for them but he sees me as 2 different people I think. There is a the good wife that he knows and loves. And the bad wife that got lonely, depressed and serial cheated. The bad wife he knows isn't the real me. If he rugsweeps and moves on, he hopes it will make it easier for the bad wife in me to disappear. I either understand him or I'm way off base or somewhere in the middle. Basically I am left guessing.

I know he won't yell at me because he is afraid it will turn into a rage that he can't control and that it will cause more damage to our marriage. That might go back to your quote of being terrified to lose me.

He does have anger issues which surprised me that he refused to yell at me for cheating.

From your posts your BH comes across as somewhat stoic. Still waters do run deep. He is hurting and it is because he is still very afraid of losing you

Yes stoic would be a perfect example of how he is about it all right now. And yes back to being afraid of losing me. I have witnessed a lot of changes in him. Mainly good because I can see him expressing his love to me differently now.

Dance4me:

My point is this - your H is in pain - the worst kind of pain that was done to him by the person he loved the most in the world. He is trying desperately to cope - the fight or flight response defintely present here. He is lashing out in anger by telling you he wants a RA. At least he is vocalizing his anger and not keeping it in...you can try to comfort him when he does this; although, you ultimately can't control him. Where one needs to worry is when the BS acts and proceeds to move forward with their spouse, saying they are committed R and to their healing as a couple- when in actuality, the BS is also scheming and plotting to engage in their own secret revenge affair! That kind of plotting, knowing full well what an affair ultimately does to a family, is beyond mind boggling.

Your point is very good. He has told me that he has no idea how to feel after being cheated on. Between our marriage and his exGF, he has had 10 years with committed relationships and I ruined it all for him. Continually he tells me he is disappointed in me. That's such a parental term to use but he says it with such sadness... You're right I'm the one he loves the most and the one that has hurt him the most. I can't control him at all but I just want to help comfort and support him through it. I am just thankful that he is expressing his thoughts as they are often few and far between. I know it would just kill me if he was trying to work on R with me and then has a secret revenge affair in a few months when he goes away for work again. I would literally die inside. We are trying to start a family and this would just throw our entire marriage in flames. I know I can't control him and I know that I created this mess.. Blah. I hope I'm just worrying over nothing and it's just part of his healing process.

ungracie:

What bothers you the most in what your BH says? Is it, the cheating? Or is it who he has to become to cheat?

I don't think it's not the cheating itself but it's who he would have to become to cheat that bothers me the most. He is a man that has always been proud to wear his wedding ring and tell other women that he is married. He likes keeping a ring box in his truck so he can keep it safe while on a job site. He enjoys talking to his friends about how good it really is to be married but also makes light hearted jokes about it all. So having a revenge affair would be like him flicking a switch to a dark side and wanting to hurt me out of spite. I guess that's the part that bothers me the most. I ruined a great man's view of marriage and it was all my fault.

Have you sat your husband down and fully explained how you feel about you? Have you made yourself completely vulnerable and explained how being the wayward makes you feel?

Yes 100% yes!! I have opened myself up to him more than I ever thought I could. He knows this is mostly why I'm in IC. He wishes that I went to IC sooner before cheating but that bell has already been rung. He has said he wished I he knew how broken I really truly was beforehand..

gooddakota:

My BS had a RA and the damage it created lead to insurmountable obstacles for R. Being Madhatters is such a chaotic situation. Although i believe people certainly can R as madhatters, for me, it makes it harder to "do whatever it takes to R" when there is so much resentment and distrust on both sides. We had As for different reasons. The fact that he purposely hurt me by seeking revenge makes the path to healing that much harder. We are now in the D process.

thanks for sharing your insights. Yes it would be very chaotic I'm sorry to hear you are in the D process.

Again, thank guys for taking the time to write me such thoughtful replies. A lot to think about. Especially with my next IC appt in a few hours.

I personally do not subscribe to the view that "RA" are more intentional or more on purpose.

That reeks of affair "grading".

Everyone is fully aware that they are hurting their partner. Whether they choose to acknowledge it, makes no difference to how the BS feels it.

If a wayward/betrayed spouse can use "it hurt me more because you did it on purpose", than why wouldnt "you should have expected it" be any less valid?

Both hurt. Both hurts were intentional. One does not minimize the other.

I will agree with most of the other BHs said.

When you are in the midst of feeling like losing control you grasp for anything that can restore a "balance." Logically an eye for eye seems like it would even things out. Almost all BS I have spoken with go through this and you should find comfort that this is in fact normal for some of us.

His comments are also familiar to me. Feeling very emasculated he is attempting to restore his traditional male role in the relationship. The RA in itself is loaded question. ANY comment you make is the wrong one. The biggest thing you can do there is let him see and understand your pain. It is hard for a newly minted BS to hear that WS experience pain for hurting someone they cared about. For breaking someone's trust in them and it will be a long time before they are trusted again. Let him see that. Explain to him, at random times how sorry you are and how that terrible feeling never leaves you. That seemed to help me. He probably will be less than nurturing, but stay consistent he will soften with time.

My W even went so far as to suggest a "hall pass" type scenario. She figured it would help with my "unfairness" feeling that follows you around for a lot after the intial stages.

For me I thought about it and sometimes still do. I inevitably dismiss the thought, but it is hard not to expect something in return to balance the relationship.

The point he does not get yet is that your choices were not an attempt to hurt him. They were driven by being a broken person desperate to fill a hole you don't know how to fill. It takes time for him to see that your choices do not reflect on him as a husband or a man.

It is very important if there a pre-A martial issues that those be tabled until he can understand this was not a premeditated act to hurt him.

One thing my wife did for me was write me a very well thought out, genuine letter expressing her feelings and explaining why what she did was not my fault.

Everybody has a language (love languages) you have to reach him in a way that is meaningful to him. In a sense, some BHs wants to be wooed back to the relationship. It helps to see a WS working hard to win you back. It can help restore some confidence, and provides actions to trust that you in fact want your H and your M. Actions. The most meaningful was when my W picked herself up through crushing guilt and made gestures in my love language.

Think of it this way. If a millionaire gave you a dollar

you would think so what. However is a poor person gave you a dollar it would somehow be more meaningful. They both gave you a dollar, but it "cost" the poor person much more.

Tell your BH there are a lot strong silent types here that can help him. Why learn the hard way when there are many others here willing to help him learn the easier path(emphasis on "er").

ETA: IF you want, I could post the letter in recon. It might give you some thoughts to start s process of how best to communicate to him. Let me know, it is kind of long or I would post it here.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 4:39 PM, September 18th (Tuesday)]

ungracie: Yes I agree mostly about what you said.. I don't like the idea of grading any A. They are all hurtful. I don't want it to be a debate about what type of affair is worse or not, that is a war no one would win.. I just want to help my BH through this and when he triggers about my A's and thinking about revenge, I don't want to cause further pain for him by not handling myself properly.

numb&dumb, I'm definitely open to reading the letter in Recon section,thank you for the offer to do that. I have done some writing on my own and wanting to share one day with my BH when he would be ready.

His comments are also familiar to me. Feeling very emasculated he is attempting to restore his traditional male role in the relationship. The RA in itself is loaded question. ANY comment you make is the wrong one. The biggest thing you can do there is let him see and understand your pain. It is hard for a newly minted BS to hear that WS experience pain for hurting someone they cared about. For breaking someone's trust in them and it will be a long time before they are trusted again. Let him see that. Explain to him, at random times how sorry you are and how that terrible feeling never leaves you. That seemed to help me. He probably will be less than nurturing, but stay consistent he will soften with time.

I can agree with that.. I'm not sure if any of my comments actually help. I think him just venting to me about it helps and maybe the less I say, the better. So many opinions but I feel more ready to handle it if there is a next time..

I also like your analogy. I'm big on analogies and they really help me process. Yeah my dollar to BH doesn't mean much to him right now. Like when I promised that I wouldn't cheat on him again, it angered him. I was foolish to say that and he didn't think my promise was worthy of even saying out loud.

I'm sure there are wonderful BS's that could help him. Its just that he wants to forget and move on. It's what he wants but is struggling because inside it's constantly triggering him. Another member told me that he is likely thinking about it 24/7 and I only hear 1/10th of it. I just let him process on his agenda and do my best to prevent any rugsweeping. SI is helping me stay accountable for my actions and repairing the marriage.

Sorry for the t/j but did anyone else read this from WN:

"Maybe its not a bad idea if you can figure out someway to do it without any emotional connections."

WTF!?!

Please explain this because I am completely dumbfounded!!

[This message edited by broken <3 at 5:33 PM, September 18th (Tuesday)]

Ok, now that I've cooled down some - I'll go back on topic here...

BS speaking - I have to admit that I've had the same kind of thoughts as your husband. I think it's somewhat normal - please correct me if I'm wrong. However I said those things out loud to my fWS to hurt his feelings with NO intention of carrying them out. His reaction spoke loudly - I was able to see that he has some sort of empathy - and I quickly said - I would never do that, by the way - and see what just the thought of it does - it hurts hun.

Actually I am quite impressed that your stoic husband was able to talk to you about it - thats actually a good sign! It's his way, perhaps, to channel his anger.

I'm on one year out from dday - and I still have anger and thoughts of some kind of revenge, but I'm getting to a place that it's ok to talk with my fWS in a way that clears the air - it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to get to that place and trust me we are still rocky.

I commend you for all your hard work and I'm sending you virtual hugs and prayers

Take care!

Also - kudos to your husband for reaching out to you when he did - he may not have known you were feeling down - but the timing was great. Perhaps you can bring that up with him?

Edited coz of my big fingers on iPhone lol

[This message edited by broken <3 at 5:59 PM, September 18th (Tuesday)]

So-called Revenges Affairs have no place in R.

Emotionally healthy people can see this and don't resort to this sort of coping mechanisim.

I would probably be divorced if my BH had had a RA.

Being a FWS doesn't mean I have to accept anything he offers.

Once I asked my BH, "Did you ever want to have a RA?"

His response, "How the fuck would that help R."

Exactly.

Disagree with FRM.You go ahead and cry. You are allowed to hurt too. If you get all stoney and blank, he may think you don't care. He is threatening to cheat. You don't have to suck it up and put on a happy face.

ETA: Chances are, this is just him expressing his anger. However, if he really decides to have RA(s), ther's not a damn thing you can do about it.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 5:59 PM, September 18th (Tuesday)]

Mrs Panda-

Once I asked my BH, "Did you ever want to have a RA?"

His response, "How the fuck would that help R."

I know this is a serious subject but Mr Panda's response cracked me up because I could picture my H saying the same response with that attitude.

Sigh.

NEM-

This was actually more recent, in the past year I asked him that.

His response shows strength, maturity. He is a Man.

I'd say that saying you wouldn't stay if there is an RA is another kick in their SOs self esteem.

My wife told me she would try to R if I had an RA. I'm not sure if I'd have stayed if she had said otherwise.

For all that matters I have never cheated. I am the most faithful person I know. I can't relate with cheating on your SO but I can relate with an RA. Not that would be any good.

I'm not sure if any of my comments actually help

The comments are likely going to be hit or miss. Most of the times questions are intentionally loaded where there isn't a

right" answer. Where he is at the best thing you can do is apologize and hug him.

Early on those were the only things that made it past the Post Dday armor, most of the other words that were spoken are lost on me. I definitely remember the hugs or attempts at hugs (sometimes they aren't reciprocated) combined with a specific apology (I'm so sorry my actions have caused you to question your morals, etc.).

Reading it again, my take on is the RA comments are meant to punish you. Those times were really hard on my W. I'll admit that I did it. I am not proud of it now, but at the time I felt that she needed to share in my pain. Like somehow making her feel a fraction of what I felt would alleviate some of my pain.

It took me some time to see that she had pain on the same scale, but in a different way. He will too, unfortunately he isn't going to allow himself to trust much of what you are telling him.

Does he read ? Sometimes I would print off things for my W and ask her to read them (she chooses not to participate on SI either).

I'll post the letter tomorrow morning in recon.

Maybe its not a bad idea if you can figure out someway to do it without any emotional connections.

Is the above comment just to stir the pot?

MUC,

I think it is good that your BH is telling you how he feels and hopefully that continues. I think how he is feeling can be a normal reaction for some BSs. I really hope this is part of his anger stage that starts to fade as his trust in you builds.

Maybe its not a bad idea if you can figure out someway to do it without any emotional connections.

Is the above comment just to stir the pot?

I posted that initial comment. No intention to stir the pot. I was trying to propose some sort of compromise if Messed's BH felt he needed a RA to R. I know SI on the whole isn't fond of RA's but sometimes a person needs it. The only person who knows that answer is Messed's BH.

I think this is a really interesting discussion. Wayward has been hopping lately with these controversial topics. I have to agree with MP who said,

I would probably be divorced if my BH had had a RA.

If my BW were to have a RA now, I would probably feel the same way. I think being a WS and opposing your BS having a RA takes a certain amount of hypocrisy. Of course the hypocrisy isn't intentional.. you can't help how you feel.

At the same time I am cognizant what a huge fucking double standard it is for a WS who cheated multiple times, whether it be myself or Messed (the OP), or anyone to say once you cheat its over. I don't really know how to explain this. I can't be alone in feeling this way. I logically can see no reason for why a BS shouldn't be allowed to have a RA, but I know it would infuriate and disgust me if *my* BW had a RA. Even if its fair.

I think being a WS and opposing your BS having a RA takes a certain amount of hypocrisy

As a BS, I think there's a huge hypocrisy when a BS, like myself, encounters a dday and deals with the emotional fallout from that. They go on to react, throw out horrible names towards their cheating spouse, puts themself and their WS into IC/MC to discover the whys of the WS's A and to help tighten up boundaries, and THEN go out and have their own RA because they "deserve" to be even and/or experience their own so called excitement -- REALLY??

One of my reasons for NOT having my own RA was that my then 16 year old son had his own sort of Dday when he found out his dad had cheated a few months after I did. He was a mess and extremely hurt by his father's betrayal. He then came to me and asked me to not seak revenge by having my own A. He said I was too good for that - and he respected me immensely for keeping our family together! That's all I had to hear to reinforce my decision to keep my wedding vows.

[This message edited by Dance4Me at 6:13 AM, September 19th (Wednesday)]