SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I logically can see no reason for why a BS shouldn't be allowed to have a RA, but I know it would infuriate and disgust me if *my* BW had a RA. Even if its fair.

I get why it is viewed as hypocrisy, and it really is. It's hypocritical to cheat and beg the BS to forgive and not cheat in return. However, cheating is NOT logical, and there is no fairness to it at all, ever, to anyone, there is no getting even, and if you're still stuck in that mind set, you have a ways to go.

If you are a cheater, you deserve to be left. That would be fair, regardless who you are, WS, BS turned WS. My spouse has chosen to forgive me, but at any time, he can determine it was a deal breaker and leave. If he chooses to cheat, I have a choice to leave the marriage. Just because he forgave me, doesn't mean I owe him and have to forgive him. He made that choice to stay and forgive, we all have those choices when faced with them.

I've been there, being angry and indignant and terrified that if my spouse cheated on me, I'd leave. And really, that came from a place of fear that dwelt somewhere deep within me. That I had huge fears of abandonment, low self esteem and self image, a real lack of confidence in myself and my own abilities to survive and thrive.

I now realize that cheating is fucking stupid, and those who engage in it, have serious issues, myself included. I don't tell my husband he better never cheat on me or I'll leave. If he feels the need to get his, that's his choice, have at it. I honestly don't know if I would stay or go, but I know he'd be seriously fucked up at that point. A place I know all too well and have been digging myself out from. But I don't fear his choices, because they are completely out of my control. I'm not saying it would be easy, either way, but just knowing I have a choice, I don't have to cling to a fear that is really generating from within me.

MUC- I posted the letter in Recon. Sorry I get held up this AM.

It isn't really fair to say a RA is worse because it was intentional. Those who cheat multiple times with multiple people, how can you not call your acts a intentional? They were anything BUT unintentional. My WH bragged to his second OW that he got more sex from me after cheating amd me finding out. He was a disgusting, evil pig who absolutely KNEW what he was doing hurt me. He was very intentional in his actions, and to say me having a RA is a "worse" act becaise now he is trying to get his shit together IS a blow. It's like saying I wasn't worth faithfulness and love and protection. I wasnt worth feeling special or having the sacredness of M kept safe, but AFTER WH had his fun, got to experience someone knew, got to "fall in lurve" again, he NOW deserves his promise from me protected, his M vows from me kept sacred, the exclusiveness of me kept. HE is worth that. Feels a little ass backwards to me.

I guess I look at RA a little different....if an A was about a WH getting their needs met and coping with deep seeded (usually abandonment) issues, wouldn't a RA sorta fall under the same catagory? The A or As have now left the BS abandoned, alone, betrayed, angry, hurt, etc. they are now in need of validation, maybe to be even (maybe an issue w/competition or a score keeping thomg rooted in childhood), to feel sexy, lovable, wanted, desired , need attention, etc.....aka MANY of the WS excuses for their As. So, they have an A or RA, whatever you wanna call it. How did that just become different than how you got here in ths first place!? The reality is it's all about how you cope, what you chose to do w/the INTENTIONAL acts of evil and hurt brought on you by the person who claims to love you, and of course those deepseated "issues" you have carried within. Neither is more intentional than the other

The debate about RA's, whether they're different, or worse, or just the same as any other A's, misses the point of this thread.

Messedupchick's BH doesn't want an RA. He wants to stop hurting.

Oops, double post.

[This message edited by Brandon808 at 2:53 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]

On some level he's right. If he wants to have one he will. You can't stop or control that, just like he had no control over you choice.

The fact is he was a faithful husband. The fact is he is hurting and vulnerable to feeling like that. The fact is he's communicating his fears to you. Ask yourself, and him, how you can help him overcome that feeling of fear you plunged him into. He may not know what he needs, not yet. Counseling should help. Time will help. Your actions will help. You're getting to the root of what caused this will help.

But it's a long, hard process that will have setbacks. That's life. It ain't easy.

I'm back on here.. Read N&D's WW letter in the recon section. Cried as I read it.. It had a big impact on me. Perhaps it's because I keep uncovering feelings of remorse that I have for my A's. Remorse is a hard place to reach and I didn't realize it in my earlier days pre/after D-day.

Yes this definitely turned into an interesting discussion. I started to feel 'thread exhaustion' by all the posts PLUS having an IC session last night. Between them both, I was spent. I still managed to have a great night with my BH and used some of IC advice. Remember to enjoy small moments, take them in and feel the joy from it. That's good advice and so simple too.

Broken:

I have to admit that I've had the same kind of thoughts as your husband. I think it's somewhat normal - please correct me if I'm wrong. However I said those things out loud to my fWS to hurt his feelings with NO intention of carrying them out. His reaction spoke loudly - I was able to see that he has some sort of empathy - and I quickly said - I would never do that, by the way - and see what just the thought of it does - it hurts hun.

Actually I am quite impressed that your stoic husband was able to talk to you about it - thats actually a good sign! It's his way, perhaps, to channel his anger.

Yes it's a good sign that he was talking to me about it. I hope it was a way to channel his anger and was only trying to hurt my feelings.

I have to notice that he has only told me about his thoughts of an RA on the day before my work trip and the day I got back. Maybe there is something that triggered him about my absense. I haven't cheated on him while on a work trip so it's not that but maybe he was struggling about being alone with his thoughts..

Mrs Panda

Disagree with FRM.You go ahead and cry. You are allowed to hurt too. If you get all stoney and blank, he may think you don't care. He is threatening to cheat. You don't have to suck it up and put on a happy facea:

Good point. Although he may not like when I started crying he might also think it was weird like I didn't care if I didn't. Probably a catch 22 thing. One thing that I have been learning about the process is to let myself feel the emotions that I have at the time. Putting up emotional barriers and detaching myself is how I truly got myself in this mess in the first place. This has lead me to cry many times when we have discussed the A's and when I try to tell him how much I really do love him.

Also you're right there is no place for an RA in R. It would literally blow our M to smithereens. I hate to say but I feel like it would be a deal breaker. After having my A's, it has nearly destroyed my spirit.. So now I'm trying to build myself up again, work hard at IC, focus efforts on BH, attend MC and a big one.. TTC a baby again and then work on a long distance M again only for it to get blown up by an RA. If he actually had one, say good night to Messedupchick. I feel like crying just with the mere thought of it.

numb&dumb:

It took me some time to see that she had pain on the same scale, but in a different way. He will too, unfortunately he isn't going to allow himself to trust much of what you are telling him.

I think it will take him some time to understand that I'm in a huge amount of different pain that is on a same scale. Its hard to describe both pains to each other. Especially when my BH is trying to block his pain and doesn't want to talk about it. And I don't want to make it about me so I keep my pain inside or let it out on SI or at IC.. I think that's where MC will help us too.

Does he read ? Sometimes I would print off things for my W and ask her to read them (she chooses not to participate on SI either).

I haven't printed anything off for him because nothing seems to relate to our situation or something that catches my eye that could help my 'stoic' BH. Not to mention I feel afraid that it would come across as "Here is a book or article for you to read because I cheated on you". Its like I would be making him read to fix a problem that I created. IDK, maybe a cop out on my part but I really don't like poking the bear. He does NOT like talking or thinking about anything A related.

In response to Whatnow and questions about the RA and cutting out emotions:

"Maybe its not a bad idea if you can figure out someway to do it without any emotional connections. "

"Is the above comment just to stir the pot?"

I posted that initial comment. No intention to stir the pot. I was trying to propose some sort of compromise if Messed's BH felt he needed a RA to R. I know SI on the whole isn't fond of RA's but sometimes a person needs it. The only person who knows that answer is Messed's BH

I didn't take it as a pot stir, just another opinion really - an opinion that I don't agree with as a woman and as a wayward. But... it's interesting to see how men and women view emotional connections with sexual activity. Both BH and I had discussed this shortly after d-day. In conversations that I have had with my BH about emotional ties with sex with someone you love, sex with a stranger or affair sex (which I never had).. I didn't tie kissing my AP's as emotional as he saw it. He puts kissing as more emotional than just plain old monkey sex. He was upset that I had kissed these men and he saw that as me giving away emotional connections not to mention he was upset that I degraded myself.. However with that being said, he told me that he was glad that I didn't have sex with any of them, or else he would have left me so I should consider myself lucky that I didn't actually go through with affair sex.

Anyways, it just goes to show how difficult this topic really is. Even with all his talking out loud about getting even with me by an RA, he doesn't even know what would match up. Would it be kissing other women? Would it be an isolated ONS with sex? He has no idea and it kills him. Brandon is right.. He just wants to stop hurting, wants to feel strong and in charge again and my cheating took a piece away from him, a piece from our marriage and his views on me. He wants it back and he is in pain.

Is there hypocrisy for me thinking that an RA would be deal breaker? Yes I understand that it is. Who am I to say that I can cheat on my husband and say that's it, you can't do it back. I never should have brought affairs into our marriage. It was horrible and living with the sick reality of it.

Am I certain that it would be a deal breaker? No. I love him too much to truly know unless I was put in those shoes. Right here and right now, the entire concept freaks me out. I really thank everyone who has posted on this thread. Opened my eyes more than I knew. Uncovered more remorse that I hadn't yet discovered. Brought out new emotions that has scared and enlightened me all at once.

Was this a debate about what's worse in the affair world? No. I was just reaching out for help on how I can understand this and how I can discuss it better if/when it ever gets brought up again or if by chance he actually goes through with his thoughts. I beg in my head that its just part of the anger process. I can't control him. I have to accept that he knows what's best for himself and our R.

The debate about RA's, whether they're Different, worse, same as A's, misses the point of this thread.

Messedupchick's BH doesn't want an RA. He wants to stop hurting.

Its potentially the same thing. As unpopular as the idea is, a RA may help him stop hurting.

It may not too. There is no way to tell until it happens. Maybe the RA makes their messy situation even worse. Maybe it gives Messed's BH the clarity and confidence to move forward in R.

No need to come in and try to shut down the discussion.

I get why it is viewed as hypocrisy, and it really is. It's hypocritical to cheat and beg the BS to forgive and not cheat in return. However, cheating is NOT logical, and there is no fairness to it at all, ever, to anyone, there is no getting even, and if you're still stuck in that mind set, you have a ways to go.

If you are a cheater, you deserve to be left. That would be fair, regardless who you are, WS, BS turned WS. My spouse has chosen to forgive me, but at any time, he can determine it was a deal breaker and leave. If he chooses to cheat, I have a choice to leave the marriage. Just because he forgave me, doesn't mean I owe him and have to forgive him. He made that choice to stay and forgive, we all have those choices when faced with them.

I've been there, being angry and indignant and terrified that if my spouse cheated on me, I'd leave. And really, that came from a place of fear that dwelt somewhere deep within me. That I had huge fears of abandonment, low self esteem and self image, a real lack of confidence in myself and my own abilities to survive and thrive.

I now realize that cheating is fucking stupid, and those who engage in it, have serious issues, myself included. I don't tell my husband he better never cheat on me or I'll leave. If he feels the need to get his, that's his choice, have at it. I honestly don't know if I would stay or go, but I know he'd be seriously fucked up at that point. A place I know all too well and have been digging myself out from. But I don't fear his choices, because they are completely out of my control. I'm not saying it would be easy, either way, but just knowing I have a choice, I don't have to cling to a fear that is really generating from within me.

I think this is a much better way of putting it. Its a complex issue that really divides people I think. Its not as simple as cheating is wrong... never do it and not as simple as you have to put up with it because you cheated.

I only thought it was hypocritical because of how confident and firm Mrs. Panda that she would divorce. If I was the BH in that case I would be furious. He forgives multiple PAs and once he falls to the same temptation, he isn't worth trying to stay and help? Its over. That second. Damn. How it that anything other than a double standard?

Honestly as easy as it is to say I wouldn't forgive a RA, that probably isn't true. I would be stunned if my wife cheated, and cheated with a PA. Which is a bit ridiculous considering she has had an EA in the past, but its the last thing I would expect. She has put up with so much with me, I don't know how I could just leave and say See ya if she had a RA. It seems fucking cold.

So I don't know. I think my personal feelings are in line with Caspers1wish.

I think the other thing is there is a real possibility that Messed's BH needs the RAs to feel safe and secure in R. Outside of SI this is how cheating is dealt with a lot. You cheated, I'll take you back but I will cheat too. Its not a perfect system and I think it causes a lot of drama but it probably helps with feelings of inferiority.

And to respond to Messed from a couple days ago a cuckold is a term for a man whose wife cheats on him. Like say a woman conceives a child with OM, than the husband has been cuckolded. I think it can also be used just in routine cases of cheating too. So your BH has been cuckolded by all the Ashley Madison OM because his wife chose them over him. Its not really commonly used anymore. Its not a complement at all.

[This message edited by whatnow999 at 12:58 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]

I mentioned holding back the tears because it angers him, probably makes him feel like the bad guy and it then puts the attention he wants for him back on you.

You don't have to suck it up and put on a happy face. There are ways to show empathy besides tears. Nor am I saying be stony face..

I believe what he is wanting at these times of venting is your undivided attention. He wants to be able to get it all out.

I am sure that he knows this hurts you, but as a man..I would want my wife to be able to hear me out then we both can shed tears after.

[This message edited by floridaredman at 1:37 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]

I personally wasn't trying to make my post seem like an argument as to whose/what type of A is worse. In a round about way I was trying to make the point that much the WS who sought out or found themselves in an A, it is about looking for PAIN RELIEF. If a BS turns WS, whether they "intentionally" went out for one and it gets called a RA or not, it is STILL about seeking PAIN RELIEF!! Unhealthy? Hell to the f#ck yeah, but honestly it's at the bottom an identical act as the original WS, no better, no worse, and certainly never ok. It's hard to be so incredibly invested in a person, a life, a world, only to wake up and realized they weren't really invested and they didn't feel they had a damn thing to lose for betraying you, that you really didn't mean that much to them, that love to them meant tearing your heart out and humiliating you for and with a stranger and didn't give a shit about you while they did it, that you just weren't worth ot to them is an incredibly horrific feeling. To know you just didn't matter and some stranger , in that time, was absolutely worth the risk can almost be dehumanizing. When the chips were down and your choice was to protect him and his heart or be with another man, you chose another man. That is gutwrenching, and he just wants to feel worth it amd important to SOMEONE. It's all about pain relief.

Whatnow:

It may not too. There is no way to tell until it happens. Maybe the RA makes their messy situation even worse. Maybe it gives Messed's BH the clarity and confidence to move forward in R.

I think my BH has thought it through a lot.. before he verbalized it to me. I think he says it to hurt me, he thinks it's to get even, for me to feel the betrayal that he feels AND also to see if he would get the same thrill that I got from it. When he asked why I kept cheating and signed up for Ashley Madison, he thought for a while and told me that he understood what I meant by chasing a high. There was a thrill that kept me wanting more.

Would this give him clarity? No. He even told me after that it is stupid that he mentioned it and doesn't understand why it would make me so upset. He wants to keep on being the stronger one so this wouldn't give him the peace. It would be like he is throwing R away and passive-aggressively saying it was a deal breaker for him afterall but he didn't want to admit it.

While I was on a walk with my dog last night I was doing some thinking about it all. I was bothered that he would have to change his beliefs, his morals and views on himself and our marriage in order to RA. But that also led me back to how he is viewing me. He must also think that I had to seriously change myself in order to cheat. He told me shortly after d-day that he didn't recognize me and felt like he didn't know me anymore. The way I had to change to cheat also bothers him, maybe even more than what I actually did. He is just so disappointed in me, it's sad..

And to respond to Messed from a couple days ago a cuckold is a term for a man whose wife cheats on him. Like say a woman conceives a child with OM, than the husband has been cuckolded. I think it can also be used just in routine cases of cheating too. So your BH has been cuckolded by all the Ashley Madison OM because his wife chose them over him. Its not really commonly used anymore. Its not a complement at all

.

I think he is feeling that way.. Like he was busy working out of town, to help build us a better life meanwhile I was being a selfish bitch at home cheating. And now he's staying with me after all that and afraid to tell a soul. He refuses to tell his friends because they will tell him to divorce me. As Brandon808 said in a different thread, my BH is protecting me and our marriage. I don't think that makes him a cuckold at all and it shows how incredibly strong and loving he is. But does that still make him feel like a cuckold because I was out acting like a whore so.. unfortuately that might be the case of how he feels.

I mentioned holding back the tears because it angers him, probably makes him feel like the bad guy and it then puts the attention he wants for him back on you.

Yeah that's likely true FRM. It's a catch 22 really. He would think something is wrong if I didn't cry but hates it when I do. I just need to be more aware of my reactions and stay focused on my BH. If I cry, I let it happen but not get carried away into being about me.

Oh and thanks for coming back to the thread mangledmom to clarify.

On the tears....for me it isn't that seeing him cry makes me mad, it's that seeing him cry STILL breaks my heart. I STILL want to protect his heart from being hurt. Many times my anger/sadness spilling has become a "comforting him" session because he hurts. So, instead of being comforted I become the comforter. Tears are ok in my opinion, just don't make the moment about you and your pain. Talk it through with him, but be HIS comforter. Hug him, hold him, wipe his tears, rub your handz through his hair as he lays in your lap, etc.

I think that's really what it is - you don't want your BS to make the same horrible mistake you did - its a way of protecting them really (and potentially yourself - stds n all and the A -fallout) But then it kinda reeks of "do as I say, not as I do" and that in turn can make a person rebel (juvenile yes) but after reading the majority of this thread that's what I've taken away from it, as simplistic as it is!

Of course he's hurting, you cheated and it's a huge blow to his male ego. Now on the RA being even or getting his manhood back - no no no... It's not right. Maybe have a talk with him about how horrible of a mistake you've made, how you wish and pray that if you could go back in time it would never happen etc etc. he may be wanting to convert to the dark side to see how it is (curiosity killed the cat) - but you've been there done that and it didn't help you one iota, right? Maybe that can be a good convo if he brings it up again.

And yes I think he triggered with your being out of town hun...

MM:

Tears are ok in my opinion, just don't make the moment about you and your pain. Talk it through with him, but be HIS comforter. Hug him, hold him, wipe his tears, rub your handz through his hair as he lays in your lap, etc.

When he triggers, I do hold him, comfort him, apologize, shower him with love. He doesn't cry but he admitted once that he had a moment that made him feel like he had salt in his eye... He is very fond of my loving affections and it has helped a lot when he triggers.

broken:

I think that's really what it is - you don't want your BS to make the same horrible mistake you did - its a way of protecting them really (and potentially yourself - stds n all and the A -fallout) But then it kinda reeks of "do as I say, not as I do" and that in turn can make a person rebel (juvenile yes) but after reading the majority of this thread that's what I've taken away from it, as simplistic as it is!

You're right I don't want him to go down the same dark road that I did, only to discover it's a one way trip to the trenches of hell. It's simple in a complicated way. We are going to talk about in MC so hopefully we are both able to get on the same page..

Maybe have a talk with him about how horrible of a mistake you've made, how you wish and pray that if you could go back in time it would never happen etc etc. he may be wanting to convert to the dark side to see how it is (curiosity killed the cat) - but you've been there done that and it didn't help you one iota, right? Maybe that can be a good convo if he brings it up again.

And yes I think he triggered with your being out of town hun...

Oh trust me, I have told him about how I wished I could go back in time and reverse the damage. And if he brings up RA again, I will be waaaaay more equipped to discuss than I was the first 2 times.

Yeah that's what I thought.. That whole thing might have been trigger related to my work trips. Even years ago, he has always asked me about my male customers, how old they are and if I have a secret boyfriend to visit on my trips. He just has always worried that traveling sales people are known as cheaters so it might have surfaced some vulnerabilities that he has felt about my job. He read some article one day and he freaked out that I could be one of those people. Now that I have cheated, maybe he thinks he's been right the whole time.. IDK.. sigh.. If he didn't work full time or now full time school, I would take him on a trip so he could see for himself of what I do.

MUC: I believe its important for everyone to question themselves, their motivation, their emotions.

The "WHY", is often only used in regard to a waywards affair decision.

Its a tool for all, for life.

The insight you gained, by going even further with that was awesome.

[This message edited by ungracie at 6:32 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]

I think the other thing is there is a real possibility that Messed's BH needs the RAs to feel safe and secure in R. Outside of SI this is how cheating is dealt with a lot. You cheated, I'll take you back but I will cheat too. Its not a perfect system and I think it causes a lot of drama but it probably helps with feelings of inferiority

.

How does creating more chaos and hurt help someone to feel safe and secure?

To me, my A was a degrading and disrespectful act. How does disrespecting yourself and your loved one help with feelings of inferiority? If anything it would only create more feelings of shame and inferiority. Two wrongs does not make something right.

Anyways, MUC- I'm sorry you and your BH are struggling. I agree that your BH may be hurting and threatening an RA as a way to show you the pain he is in. In those instances, validate his pain. Let him know that you see how much pain he is in. Maybe you can talk to him about the feelings you have as a WS so that he can understand that making a choice to have an A is so self-destructive. The remorse afterward shakes you to your core.

T/j @wn99

I believe I said I would "probably be divorced." Because after the devastation of my A's, there is not much more a M could take. I was trying to cope with my anger at myself, my loss, my devastation that I has created. I was fucking broken down. And I did that. And I could blame it on my BS...and I did. Because that's easier than looking in the mirror.

But I don't now.

And imagine, in that time of my lowest low. I am in the ashes. I know I have betrayed the man I love. I have b etrayed myself amd my values.

Then, if my BS said "I want you. I love you. But first I am going to go fuck me some bitches. Then...we can R."

Then I would know he hated me.

So yeah, we would be divorced.

Its potentially the same thing. As unpopular as the idea is, a RA may help him stop hurting.

It may not too. There is no way to tell until it happens. Maybe the RA makes their messy situation even worse. Maybe it gives Messed's BH the clarity and confidence to move forward in R.

Isn't this kinda like someone taking cocaine to help them deal with the withdrawal symptoms from getting off heroin? Choosing to do something unhealthy to help you through the pain of something else that was unhealthy?

A RA may help him stop hurting....until the reality of the consequences of betraying his morals, ideals and marriage vows start to set in. I fail to see how a RA could ever - in the long terms - improve what is already a painful, messy situation.

If someone shoots my mother, the law doesn't say that I then get to shoot THEIR mother in order to even up the situation, even though that might be "fair" and put us on even footing. A different but still appropriate consequence happens, because society has recognized that "eye for an eye" taken literally isn't the best idea. Likewise, if a spouse cheats, in my opinion it is NOT right for the other spouse to go cheat too. Two wrongs don't make a right. If someone is so damaged by the actions of their cheating spouse that they are willing and eager to inflict the same, or worse, pain back on them....perhaps the relationship should end.

I understand RA's happen, and I can definitely understand the emotions that probably drive them, and how they could make someone feel better in the moment....but I cannot accept that ANY type of affair is a useful or positive way to address relationship problems. There are ways to do that that don't involve massive betrayals of marriage vows and common decency, risk of STDs, possibility of participating in the demise of OTHER people's marriages by possibly having a married OP, etc.

Messedupchick, I wish you and your H all the best....I know it's hard, but it sounds like you're really trying and I hope the two of you get through this.

[This message edited by MFC2011 at 9:55 PM, September 19th (Wednesday)]

MFC2011, this was an attempt to sell cheap fertilizer or wayward justifying 101..

Its potentially the same thing. As unpopular as the idea is, a RA may help him stop hurting.

It may not too. There is no way to tell until it happens. Maybe the RA makes their messy situation even worse. Maybe it gives Messed's BH the clarity and confidence to move forward in R.

Continued t/j

T/j @wn99

I believe I said I would "probably be divorced." Because after the devastation of my A's, there is not much more a M could take. I was trying to cope with my anger at myself, my loss, my devastation that I has created. I was fucking broken down. And I did that. And I could blame it on my BS...and I did. Because that's easier than looking in the mirror.

But I don't now.

And imagine, in that time of my lowest low. I am in the ashes. I know I have betrayed the man I love. I have b etrayed myself amd my values.

Then, if my BS said "I want you. I love you. But first I am going to go fuck me some bitches. Then...we can R."

Then I would know he hated me.

So yeah, we would be divorced.

I think I lost track of the probably. My mistake. Wasn't trying to twist words.

A question then. Would you still "probably divorce" if he had a normal affair. Say he gets too close with someone at work. Is sexually involved for a few months and confesses? No revenge factor. Is somewhat unapologetic for the first few months but eventually finds remorse. Do you stay with him and work through it or is done, divorce time?