SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I understand the ramifications of actually doing it. It make things way worse. Mind fuck squared.

But regardless of all the already talked about consequences and etc. when we hear "I'd divorce you if you had an affair" we hear "you are not worth it".

It make things way worse. Mind fuck squared.

Agreed

when we hear "I'd divorce you if you had an affair" we hear "you are not worth it".

can you clarify if you are talking about A's in general or just RA's ?

I guess maybe it doesn't really matter, as I reserve the right to make any A a dealbreaker period. That has everything to do with my worth as a person inside of my marriage and everything to do with the choice that he made. Just like he had and still has the same choice.

May I chime in and say an affair is an affair no matter how you slice it?

It is a choice. Whether you want to go out and find what's missing or that you want to make your WS feel the pain you do. It's degrading. To yourself and the partner you are committed to.

To me, a revenge affair involves a calculated cruelty that I believe is much more painful than a "garden variety" affair.

One normally does not engage in a typical affair specifically to cause pain to their spouse. In fact, most deny and compartmentalize that realization if it ever does hit. However, a revenge affair is specifically to cause pain. That, to me, does not belong anywhere in a loving marriage.

If you believe that a completely devastated BS is devastated because of the love and commitment they have for the marriage, I would then submit that this person is less likely to have a revenge affair. Sure, lots of BSs talk about it. We would do ANYTHING to relieve some of the pain, to wake from the never-ending nightmare. An RA seems a neat little pain-reliever we could dish out. We also, in many cases, are trying desperately to let our partners know just how much they have hurt us. Again, when you think it through, an RA is not going to accomplish that, but we as a group are so hurt and broken that anything seems a good idea, however fleeting.

MUC, I think that trying to absorb as much of his pain and you can is the way to go. Show him in word and deed that you are "getting it" and that you are there, unfailingly, for him 24/7. I truly don't think he would go to the lengths of an RA, but hear out his pain. Hear out how much he has been hurt and how desperate he is to stop the hurting. Hold him and be with him. Show him in every way that you are there.

Hang in there. It can and does get better.

Cat

What a lively discussion while I've been away from SI..

Seems like each day, there is another layer of my marriage that gets worked on. I'll share it as it is related to this topic..

BH and I went out on a dinner date after running a few errands. On our 30 minute drive, there were many topics discussed. Next week a co-worker and I are putting on an event for our customers. I asked BH if he wanted to come. He hemmed and hawwed, decided he would go. I told him I wanted to introduce him to one of my male customers that is hot on my tail and is ignoring my marital status. This guy is divorced and keeps on telling me that I'm beautiful whenever I make a sales call to his business. I ignore his comments but that hasn't been enough. I didn't carry the tools in my belt to handle it properly earlier this year. I was too much on a wayward path to handle men's compliments in a way that I should have. Anyways, BH pounds his right fist into his left hand and makes some comments. I told him that I need him to be careful as this is a client of mine but a big husband introduction (T/J) needs to be done and hopefully this guy will leave me the eff alone. Naturally this led into a conversation about my A's.. blah. BH makes a joke that maybe this customer found me on Ashley Madison so he thinks I'm looking for something. I go into apology mode for AM and such. BH shakes it off and says to me, did you know there is an app for AM? I said yes I know that but I think it's stupid and never would have had an iphone app for it. BH mocked the app and made a lot of jokes about how cheaters need to have an easy mobile access to their dating account.

After that app convo died down, I felt it would be a safe time to ask him about his thoughts on the RA topic. I asked him exactly why would he want to do such a thing. He said it's that same thrill and excitement factor that I had found in it. I reminded him the thrill was extremely short lived and the dark and scary lows were nearly devastating to our marriage, our future and ourselves. That thrill nearly killed everything we had and left me feeling seriously degraded, disgusted, depressed and shot my self esteem to a low like no other. Reminded him that I truly love him, want a family and a future with him. With more affairs in our marriage, it would put us into jeopardy. I said that we can discuss further in MC. We kinda left it at that. I think the whole fantasy of having his own A has been his way of coping.. IDK. I have a feeling our conversations about it are not done yet.. At least we have been able to stay open books about it, he just masks his pain. I want to break down his emotional wall and really see him on the inside but he is protective of himself. He has too much man pride for him to show vulnerable side.

Back to the other replies..

Mrs P:

And imagine, in that time of my lowest low. I am in the ashes. I know I have betrayed the man I love. I have b etrayed myself amd my values.

Then, if my BS said "I want you. I love you. But first I am going to go fuck me some bitches. Then...we can R."

Then I would know he hated me.

That is how I feel as well. My BH does really love me but if he needs to go fuck him some bitches first, I just don't feel like I could handle it. I would prefer if BH told me that my A's were a deal breaker for him rather than me find out that he has an RA that is a deal breaker for me.

catwoman:

I think that trying to absorb as much of his pain and you can is the way to go. Show him in word and deed that you are "getting it" and that you are there, unfailingly, for him 24/7. I truly don't think he would go to the lengths of an RA, but hear out his pain. Hear out how much he has been hurt and how desperate he is to stop the hurting. Hold him and be with him. Show him in every way that you are there.

Thanks I think that's what he needs too. He really wants me to be around 24/7 as he has been extremely anxious whenever I have been gone since d-day. It seems like he just wants me around all the time for reassurance and comfort. I just love him so much, this is such a terrible time. I have to keep believing that it will get better and we will get past this.

Affair grading is a great minimizing tool.

Not one person can honestly say that they thought/think affairs are a wonderful way to show your BS that you value them. That goes for all affairs.

Pain is pain. People often dont really reflect on the pain/damage they cause because they don't feel it as the "victim". Once the victim, then all of a sudden... how dare they!!!!

Minimizing is what almost every wayward did to have their affair. Its only talking, texting, emailing, lunch, just friends, kissing, sex. How is there "less" intent in those actions than "Im going to fuck first fuck I find"? End result is the same. For both sides.

In my opinion, the ultimate affair toll is paid by the wayward and ap. It is a road they chose to go down. They have to own it, the work back is theirs. Even if they ignore their handiwork, they are destined to live their lives on that toll road... until no tokens of who they were/could be are left.

ungracie:

Affair grading is a great minimizing tool

Agreed. If a BS has an RA, they would be minimizing their own actions. Well her/his A was worse and then not feel bad. Like if my BH had an RA, I know he would be searching for ways to make mine seem worse still as I was the first offender, I have more AP etc. I have enough evidence on my rap sheet for him to twist and turn any which way.

Pain is pain. People often dont really reflect on the pain/damage they cause because they don't feel it as the "victim". Once the victim, then all of a sudden... how dare they!!!!

I'm assuming you are directing this at me in a roundabout way.. ie: Me as a cheater and now worried about my BH having an RA? Yeah I get it. I wasn't thinking about my BH when I was cheating. And now because I came clean and confessed, I'm worried about having my own pain from betrayal..

In my opinion, the ultimate affair toll is paid by the wayward and ap. It is a road they chose to go down. They have to own it, the work back is theirs

I'm paying the toll as a WW. I've owned it 100%. It took me a while to get there. I do not blame my BH for what I did. I am trying very hard to work our way back into a good marriage. I will do whatever it takes and however long it takes.

Please do not assume.

For me, most of the hard lessons learned from an affair are life lessons in general. We shouldn't lose sight of that.

Again, in regard to the toll a wayward/ap pays, it is another general life lesson.

For me, my greatest disappointments in life were things I did, said, not done, not said. The responsibilty was all mine. Even not doing, was a choice.

So called wayward thinking, is not only used in affairs, it is a thought process used in many aspects of life.

Thanks for clarifying ungracie.

I seem to learn all my life lessons the hard way. The only smart thing I feel I did right the first time was college and saving to buy a house in my early 20s. Everything else I screw up and learn the hard way. I'm tired of being like that and it's about time I change those patterns. Thank you all for the help that I have received on this thread and all the other ones too

MUC-

Be careful not to be defensive to BH. He asked about the AM app. Instead of what you said, maybe try, "I know. Look, I am disgusted by my actions. I am digusted there is an App. I was so wrong."

Also, a little suggestion re: the guy hitting on you. Don't make your BH play Knight in Shining Armour. YOU deal with it. And you can tell your BH how you shut it down.He doesn't want to rescue you, ya know.

Seriously, next time the guy says "you"re pretty" just go off on him. Tell him he is innapropriate and to stop. I know it's scary. But I believe in you.

Re: the wn99 t/j:

My BH and I have both fought very hard to stay M. We have both made compromises and sacrifices. Our relationship is fucking awesome now.

But if infidelity entered the equation again? It would probably be the end.

This is all hypothetical, so maybe it's not worth talking about. No one knows how they will react in a situation until it happens.

In genetics, there is a "2-hit hypothesis." Basically, one genetic hit on the gene of your choice (family history, spontaneous mutation, radiation) and you are at increased risk for cancer. Second hit...you get cancer.

Our Marriage cannot take another hit.

Personally, I resent the implication that a BH that doesn't engage in a RA (or 3 or 7 or 10) is a cuckhold. My BH is strong enough to see how stupid cheating is. Cheating is weak.

He could easily cheat if he wanted to. He is very attractive, witty, charming. Everyone loves my BH. He could pick up a woman in no time (and he did...before me).

But he has never threatened a RA. Maybe he thought about it, IDK. But he is smart and emotionally mature enough to see that:

Cheating is for Losers.

End of story.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 6:28 PM, September 20th (Thursday)]

I also agree with MP:

Another true life lesson. Not only are we each responsible for setting our personal boundaries, we are responsible for ENFORCING them.

Never hand your power to anyone else.

Being a BS sucks and the devastation leads to intense anger and lashing out at the WS. If my FWH would have tried to tell me not to have an RA (of course I thought about it) I would have been even more angry. Seriously, it would have been pretty ridiculous for me to take anything he said at that time to heart and hurting him was a motivation to do it. If there is anyone else who is a friend of your marriage that you could ask him to talk to about this feeling that might be more beneficial. My dad told me not to degrade myself like that (to have an RA). Since he was a BS himself and a man of integrity that was all I needed to let go of that need to strike back. My advice is you should not be the one to give him any advice or opinions about morality as it will probably trigger hostility about the hypocrisy and injustice of your actions. Just repeatedly tell him and show him how sorry and wrong you were and that his anger is justified. Be humble, show humility and remorse and don't judge his anger and retaliative thoughts.

can you clarify if you are talking about A's in general or just RA's ?

I was talking about RAs but actually it is valid for any A. I stayed, didn't I? She was and is worth it.

This thread has been very helpful for me. Not only did my BS have a RA very quickly after DDay, he has been actively pursuing other women for months now, while we were in MC. He is now filing for D, still putting the "blame" on me for having an A, but clearly not recognizing that his behaviors following my A were so destructive to the M and ruined any chance for R. I realize now that he was reaching out to other women for a long time prior to my A, via internet porn (often live), inapprioriate texts with old lovers, exhanging revealing photos with women, having secret female friends. So I am beginning to see that my A provided him a "free pass" to open do the things he had either been already doing, or on the cusp of doing. I am sad about the D, mostly for the kids, and for the horror of the process, but watching him behave like this is only making it easier to focus on me and the kids and realize that I had been unhappy married to him for a long time, and he clearly felt the same way. I can't help but think that if he had been happy married to me, and loved me and wanted to be with me, he would not have retailiated and would not have intentionally hurt me (which he admitted he did). His behavior is cruel, hurtful to us both, and will only hurt him more in the long run. Nothin good comes from an RA....nothing.

He said it's that same thrill and excitement factor that I had found in it.

Again, the idea is an escape from the pain. There is also another dynamic at work here I think. Sometimes people related to alcoholics will go out and get drunk because they want to experience it themselves. They want to know what was so great about that experience that made it worth so much pain and destruction in everyone's lives. He may wonder too. He may be wondering "Maybe she did get something out of it that I can't give her. Maybe it did make her happy in a way that I can't."

On this next point I'm biased because of my own history. When the WS hoooks up with someone through CL, AM or AFF the BS realizes two things. 1) It could have been anyone and not that particular AP as opposed to an A that developed between two people brought together through work or some common interest, 2)that the point is that it could have been anyone...as long as it wasn't the BS. So how exactly do you keep your sanity when the person you want most in the world wants anyone but you? How do you believe them when they say they realize their mistake even if its the thing you want to hear most in the world? I'm still working on the first question and I never had to bother with answering the second one.

It is apparent to all of us you are trying, learning and growing. I've certainly noticed a change in you from your posts since you came to SI so please take heart.

This thread and topic is getting emotionally exhausting for me.. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's helping me in the process because it keeps poking at the hurtful parts of my A's and troubles in my marriage.

I read everyone's replies and think about where that poster is coming from and why they feel the way they do about an RA.

I have noticed that I have side-stepped nuance's posts because they are very short, to the point with a powerful opinion about thinking that if his own FWW had said no RA, then he would have taken huge offense. That is similar to my own BH. He did take offense when I was so seriously opposed to it. He was more or less like "Are you kidding me? You cheat with 4 men, join a fucking trashy cheat dating website and now you are telling me I can't have my own affair?. Who are you to say??!!!??" So maybe nuances posts could be parallel with my own BHs. I'm not entirely sure..

This experience of talking about RA's has made me feel more depressed, remorseful, upset, angry at myself and dying for a second chance at my marriage, one that doesn't reek badly of leftover affairs. I accept that my marriage is no longer the same. I accept that I'm the one who did this damage. I'm trying desperately to fix the mess I have made.

It is apparent to all of us you are trying, learning and growing. I've certainly noticed a change in you from your posts since you came to SI so please take heart.

Thank you Brandon. I have noticed a huge change within myself too since I first joined. I feel very clear headed, head over heels in love with my BH and know what I want in life.

Some of my earlier posts are horrible. Talks of D, blaming, selfish, wishy-washy, rugsweeping... all that typical WS hogwash. I was thinking last night about my changes through SI. I realized that I went through a detox on SI and the help that I received was amazing. I came here fresh from a 6 week affair bender. I was shaking from what I had done, had to go cold turkey off the cheating. I walked around the world like a zombie after, my imagination racing and unable to focus or think without the nightmares of my actions. Trying to comprehend what I had done was mind-blowing. I sat in my house for weeks, crying at any point of the day. I hid from family & friends. My BH told me after d-day that it would have been only a matter of time that he figured there had been affairs. He couldn't pinpoint why I was acting weird but he recognized it.

I recall a post I made on my first thread that it felt like I threw a drug needle out the window and wanted to go back and get it. I was a disgusting mess and my user name on SI was very fitting.

In that 6 week period.. even with the 4 men aside, I also had a lot of inappropriate contact and discussion with more men. From dancing with at least 8-10 guys at a bar to hiding my wedding ring when talking to others. It was wayward at it's lowest... I was so detached from myself and my marriage, I was living like a wild woman on a cheating spree. It truly makes me want to throw up to think about what I did.

On a separate post, I'm going to talk about the other recent replies on my thread..

Mrs P:

MUC-

Be careful not to be defensive to BH. He asked about the AM app. Instead of what you said, maybe try, "I know. Look, I am disgusted by my actions. I am digusted there is an App. I was so wrong."

Perhaps I had my defenses up initially when he brought it up but I didn't say in my post that I apologized heavily about joining that site and that I was disgusted by myself at joining AM in the first place. I apologize to him every single time he triggers and tell him how despicable I think my actions were. I do also let him know how thankful I am as well that he is a great H and how lucky I am to have him.

Also, a little suggestion re: the guy hitting on you. Don't make your BH play Knight in Shining Armour. YOU deal with it. And you can tell your BH how you shut it down.He doesn't want to rescue you, ya know.

Seriously, next time the guy says "you"re pretty" just go off on him. Tell him he is innapropriate and to stop. I know it's scary. But I believe in you.

This one is a big challenge.. I definitely realize that I shouldn't need or even ask my BH to be a KISA in this situation but for some reason I feel so powerless. It's not fair that my BH has to stand up for his WW in a situation that he really doesn't have involvement in. It's wrong for me to be like that since this is MY life I'm fighting for. I told BH that I was mad that my customer is using my sales rep vs his customer status to manipulate how I respond to him. He understood what I meant because I really try to be good at my job and treat my customers as special people. I know in my heart that I have been professional with this customer. Never once had I discussed my marriage, my life or hinted that I'm interested. But I see now that I should have shut his compliments down a LONG time ago.

Reason why this is a bigger challenge than it sounds is because I left out parts of the story. He keeps on asking me to have a 'business' dinner with him. I have always felt uncomfortable with his requests almost like he is trying to start an affair with me. I have never understood why this single divorced man would be pursuing me as a married woman.

Now that I'm clear on how I should handle myself, I should have been saying NO rather than saying I CAN'T because I'm busy. Generally I only go on business dinners with customers when they are female or with spouses, never with 1 male customer on his own. That is a boundary that I have had for myself as a sales rep however I haven't learned how to express myself to a male customer that wants to join me for a dinner when I'm out of town. Now I'm in a pickle because I've dodged his requests for a dinner by saying I can't or we'll see rather than saying No and this is why. I never wanted this customer to feel uncomfortable after he asks me like I would be implying that he is in fact hitting on me. I didn't want to jeopardize his business and didn't want to offend...

I'll T/J my own thread.. Is it reasonable for me to say No to this customer and provide a reason that it would make my husband uncomfortable or should I just say it's because I'm married - end of story?

So yes Mrs P, I should be just shutting him down after a compliment. I wish I did that 6 months as now it seems like a worse situation than it needed to be.

Faithstricken:

If there is anyone else who is a friend of your marriage that you could ask him to talk to about this feeling that might be more beneficial. My dad told me not to degrade myself like that (to have an RA). Since he was a BS himself and a man of integrity that was all I needed to let go of that need to strike back. My advice is you should not be the one to give him any advice or opinions about morality as it will probably trigger hostility about the hypocrisy and injustice of your actions. Just repeatedly tell him and show him how sorry and wrong you were and that his anger is justified. Be humble, show humility and remorse and don't judge his anger and retaliative thoughts.

Thanks for your post. I wish my BH had a friend of the marriage to talk to about it. He has bottled it up against all friends/family. This could be due to his efforts to protect my reputation as his wife, protect his reputation so he doesn't look weak, to protect our marriage but also maybe secretly if he doesn't discuss with anyone, it helps him forget it happened... I think it has been eating him up but won't admit it. Which is why it has leaked out in other ways by considering an RA. I have tried to ask him to join SI, he doesn't feel comfortable. He doesn't wish to see his own IC and doesn't wish to talk to others. At least he has agreed to MC so that will be his real outlet.

also I will keep trying to do my best to be humble, honest, thankful, remorseful, work hard for him, to be happy with him in all aspects, do favors for him, express my love and cherish him. If I keep on trying to be the best wife for him, I hope that he will geniunely feel better and help ease his mind. I wish every day that I didn't do this to him. Like I said, I thank him every single day. He did mention the other day that he was feeling smothered by me.. He was laughing and said I was laying it on too thick. I was ok with that comment as at least he saw that I was trying hard. I couldn't help it, I just want him to see how much I love him.

gooddokta:

This thread has been very helpful for me.

I'm very glad it has been helpful for you. I didn't realize it would get so carried away but maybe it helps with breakthroughs for myself and others. Help us gather our thoughts of A aftermaths, see weaknesses in our BS that were always there pre-A. Also see the devastation that A's have in our lives and marriages. It's an ugly matter.. I'm very sorry that your BH had an RA and it ruined your chances at R. I wish you strength going forward.

Shortly after DD my WW told me that she would understand if I had a RA, and that if I did, she would stick by me and fight for me. She was not giving me an opportunity to "get even." She was empathizing with me and demonstrating her willingness to do anything. She further explained that an affair only lowers you further. It does not help. I think if she had acted otherwise, including telling me it was a deal breaker for her, I would have selected divorced due to her lack of empathy. Remember that you have run your husband's emotions through a meat grinder. He's trying to figure it out, and stick with you and support you at the same time. He will likely make mistakes as he sorts it out, like you have. The fact that you are talking about this subject and supporting him through it is a big plus.

[This message edited by still-living at 2:37 PM, September 21st (Friday)]

Now I'm in a pickle because I've dodged his requests for a dinner by saying I can't or we'll see rather than saying No

its time to step up to the plate MUC.

The truth is this guy makes YOU feel uncomfortable, so dont just pin it on your H, that just paints him as the overbearing husband keeping you locked up.

So what DO you tell him? Exactly what you posted here...

I only go on business dinners with customers when they are female or with spouses, never with 1 male customer on his own. That is a boundary that I have had for myself as a sales rep.

That is very professional and polite.

Its also about being authentic and honest, being who you claim to be and behaving in a manner that supports that.

You have it in you, so dont be afraid to show it.

Most folks respect people who stand up for what they believe in, the ones who dont...well they generally dont matter in the long run.

I have noticed that I have side-stepped nuance's posts because they are very short, to the point with a powerful opinion about thinking that if his own FWW had said no RA, then he would have taken huge offense. That is similar to my own BH. He did take offense when I was so seriously opposed to it. He was more or less like "Are you kidding me? You cheat with 4 men, join a fucking trashy cheat dating website and now you are telling me I can't have my own affair?. Who are you to say??!!!??" So maybe nuances posts could be parallel with my own BHs. I'm not entirely sure..

I hate typing on my phone that's why :)

Yeah, an RA would make things worse because besides the added hurt to the M the BS would be conflicted as well. It's like when you move to another country. For a long time you're citizen of nowhere since you miss some stuff but you also like some of the new stuff. But you can't live in both places. And you will always think of something you lost and you can't have it. So you just don't do it. Same reasons for not having an A in the first place.

But IMHO if an A is a dealbreaker for the WS it should be a dealbreaker for the BS. That would be the nail on the coffing proving that my WS really doesn't love me like I do.