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Nuance, I have been raped, which is why I feel very strongly about not forcing, coercing, guilting, etc someone to have sex when they don't want to, no matter what they've done.

[This message edited by frigidfire86 at 11:10 PM, October 12th (Friday)]

How in God's name does that build closeness?

How does a WSO rejecting the BS when they never rejected the OM build closeness?

Talking about the A for the BS is healthy in order to heal. WSO always just want to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. Opening up the eyes of the WSO by highlighting the A so that they can feel and acknowledge the BS pain is essential to R. You hear this to do with just about every other aspect in repairing a relationship...why is the sexual aspect considered so taboo?

Though I honestly have no fucking idea how else someone could say "servicing" but hey, I'm sure you have a good whatever the fuck it is you have for that.

I do indeed. What do you call it when someone performs a sexual act for someone else based on an exchange that is not based on desire?

You seem to be missing the point, bus, concept here. My post had nothing to do with accusing someone of rape. As I said. I'm fucking crystal clear on that having been a victim as well.

It doesn't have anything to do with the wayward wife either. She has choices and staying is obviously one of them.

I don't understand how the dynamics as was mentioned a few times as tossing the thing that was part of the destruction of marriage vows as a tool that results in sex is reclaiming or rebuilding anything.

I think this also diminishes the pain of who was really raped.

Exactly!

Nuance, I have been raped, which is why I feel very strongly about not forcing, coercing, guilting, etc someone to have sex when they don't want to, no matter what they've done.

So have I. I am a victim and survivor of sexual abuse as a child, which is why I feel so strongly about an anonymous stranger wrongly accusing me of rape.

How does a WSO rejecting the BS when they never rejected the OM build closeness?

EXACTLY!!!! It doesn't. It won't. It can't. No amount of machinations will fix that. That has to be her desire, her work, her drive to fix it.

Guilting, shaming, does nothing to show you anything.

There is another option here, Jesu. If the WW doesn't do the work than you leave or kick her out. Even if she does that's a viable option.

Why would you settle for less?

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:24 PM, October 12th (Friday)]

What do you call it when someone performs a sexual act for someone else based on an exchange that is not based on desire?

I dunno, about 20% of the total exchange?

Maybe there's a bit more to it here than your assumptions that she was cowed into sex because he was angrily shaming her.

Jesu, I already apologized. I won't again since whatever I say apparently doesn't mean crap to you. You've established that my status as a WW means that my opinions as a BW mean nothing to you, or maybe just less that those who aren't madhatters. Which, BTW, I find a little insulting.

Total t/j here...

I think marriage is a team sport. Gonna fail if you are keeping score on each other. That's what I belive, and that's the approach I took. Eventually I decided I didn't want to play on a team that was losing because someone was letting too many shots go in between her legs.

end t/j

Maybe there's a bit more to it here than your assumptions that she was cowed into sex because he was angrily shaming her.

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said.

EXACTLY!!!! It doesn't. It won't. It can't. No amount of machinations will fix that. That has to be her desire, her work, her drive to fix it.

Why are you telling me this? I KNOW.

Guilting, shaming, does nothing to show you anything.

Again. I KNOW. She feels plenty of guilt and shame herself for what she has done.

There is another option here, Jesu. If the WW doesn't do the work than you leave or kick her out. Even if she does that's a viable option.

Yep.

Why would you settle for that?

Settle for what?

I think this also diminishes the pain of who was really raped.

I've been raped by a stranger in my own home while my children slept less than 50 feet away. I was "really raped". So I know what that feels like.

I've also had my then-husband do things during sex that I had *clearly* told him I didn't want to do EVER, yet he did it anyway, and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it at the time.

I can tell you that for me, I would rather be raped by a stranger again than have the man who promised to love, honor, cherish, and respect me to violate my body as if I had no right to say "no" just because I agreed to be his wife.

I can only hope that Jesu's partner truly feels like she is making the choice to never say no to him of her own free will. Why? Because I know first-hand what it's like to feel like you *can't* say no. And when it was with my own husband? It was worse than being raped by a stranger.

So, for me at least, you're dead wrong in your assessment of diminishing the pain of those who have been "really raped".

Yes, how absolutely insane of me to think that suggesting someone manipulates another into a sexual act for a reason other than desire is... I dunno, whatever you're going to say next. Dinosaurs or something maybe.

I'm not EVEN going to step into the quagmire of what this thread has become, but I will say this with regard to the original question that was proposed. You have every right to feel rejected, particularly if sex was something that was an issue before.

Considering that the amount/quality of sex may have been an issue, you might want to explore whether you want guilt to be the issue that pushes you over into getting it. Had the affair never happened, what would you have done? Without a bargaining tool, were you satisfied pre-affair? Was she?

I ask because sex is so vital to a relationship as a barometer and catalyst that it's easy to gauge what you should feel; but guilt sex usually leads to grudge sex, which is an intimacy killer.

Being a WW doesn't make my opinions as a BW or my pain any less valid.

You're totally right. Wearing both hats means exactly that: we wear BOTH hats.

H and I are madhatters. I will not say that one of our betrayals is worse than the other, but I will say that H cheated more frequently than I did, with much less remorse, and interestingly, he has rejected me more. Even though neither of us had a PA outside of our relationship (though I have doubts), for me our sex has been affected the most.

Like I said, he's rejected me a lot. I have rejected him perhaps once, and I think it was while I was angry at him for choosing porn over me.

Forcing a partner, regardless of your status as betrayed, wayward, or mad, is totally wrong. And the gender does NOT matter.

Men don't find sex more valuable than women find it. Men do not have a monopoly on sex. People, not genders, value it equally or differently. People hurt equally when they're rejected sexually. And you know what? As much as it hurts to be rejected, maybe there is strength in trying to take your partner as they are.

I've been hurting for a long time over H's rejections. The best thing I ever did for my self-esteem was to stop initiating. No initiation = no rejection.

My H was abused as a child. He also had a very complicated relationship with someone inappropriate when he was very young. We didn't keep each other safe by cheating on each other. Even though I complain the most about sex problems, that wasn't our greatest loss. Our greatest loss was safety. If I really love my H, and I do, then I will work hard to discover how I can help him feel safe. I will take sex off the table and work in other areas. This does NOT mean I am blaming myself for our relationship issues, or that I have to take on H's FOO issues, but it does mean I am happy to adjust the way our relationship is structured to make it a safer place. It's a way to be supportive and trying to be compassionate to him.

We've been doing work slowly outside of the bedroom (still a lot of work to go!), and a most miraculous thing has been happening. He's been initiating more. He's even done a certain something a few times that I'd asked him to do before but he wouldn't. I'd stopped asking him, after he said the last time that "the more you ask me, the less likely I am to do it". Yes, that hurt. My response was to back up and take better care of myself. I know how to take care of myself if he's unable or unwilling to take care of me. I don't need to make him. I'm supposed to be an independent woman? I can do it myself. So what a happy surprise when he tried it for me without my asking anymore. I can only hope this means it is a sign that it's now in his comfort zone.

I can understand your anger. Your anger is totally understandable, and yes her rejection must seriously hurt. Don't give up on making it work with her, but in the meantime, step back and take good care of yourself. You expressed how you feel clearly to her, you told her your feelings, and now she must take the next step forward and acknowledge them. Move forward slowly. That's the hardest part. So take extra care to love yourself.

(((everyone)))

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:49 PM, October 12th (Friday)]

Jesu, I already apologized. I won't again since whatever I say apparently doesn't mean crap to you.

I know, and I accepted and thanked you for your apology.

You've established that my status as a WW means that my opinions as a BW mean nothing to you, or maybe just less that those who aren't madhatters. Which, BTW, I find a little insulting.

WW opinions DO mean less to me in regards to my situation. I'm sure you may have plenty of wonderful insights for other WS, and maybe even BS, but excuse me for not holding your opinion in a high regard. You are obviously entitled to your opinion though, just as I am entitled to disagree with you.

Sorry to hear that you are a BW as well, but from my understanding you cheated on your partner first?

For the record, I find people that cheat on their partners insulting to relationships in general.

I can only hope that Jesu's partner truly feels like she is making the choice to never say no to him of her own free will.

Well she very much is, and she can say no if she wants to. Just like I can say no to her if I want to.

She can also choose to be in a relationship with me or not and so can I.

Wearing both hats means exactly that: we wear BOTH hats.

I don't though, and never want to.

I don't though, and never want to.

Response was to frigidfire86. Glad you don't wear both hats. It's not something I'd wish on anyone.

You know there is one way to never be turned down again, and always have a hot meal waiting when you get home. Get a divorce and an undocumented third world maid.

I hope anyone reading this thread is not a hockey fan, lest they be further traumatized with the lockout I see coming here.

the lockout I see coming here

^^this^^ was my same exact thought....about a page ago.