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Are there any BSs or WSs that were impacted by an ‘exit affair’ – the kind of an affair that happened after the WS had gotten to a point where they were so unhappy with and felt unloved in the marriage that having the affair was their way out? My WW definitely falls into that category. We are trying to work through things but, unlike with other reconciliations I’ve read about, my WW is not only dealing with the shame and disgust of what she did but also trying to determine if she really thinks she can be happy in the M. Remarkably, to my surprise and hers, I have been willing to try and work on our 20yr relationship and strengthen our family (we have two young girls) and truly want it to work out. I’ve been working very hard on myself to change my unhealthy ways but I’m also dealing with the difficult task of stabilizing my life after learning of the A and her true feelings about our 20yr marriage.

For other BSs, how were you able to move forward with your life since you didn’t have the unconditional love/support from your WS such as them doing the ‘typical stuff’ to help you recover from the affair or having the assurance they love you / want the M to survive? For WSs, what helped you finally realize you wanted to stay in or end the M and, if you wanted to stay, what helped you open up to the chance that things might go back to the way they were and you being miserable again?

(bold]Below is my story: [/bold]

I learned about my wife’s affair back in March. We’ve been separated since then trying to work on ourselves (IC) as well as our relationship (MC). We’ve had no intimacy / physical contact since that Dday but spend a good deal of time together with the kids (e.g. – dinners, sporting events, festivals). In MCing, for a long time we’ve focused solely on what made her unhappy and our communication problems in the marriage while I’ve tried to recover and stabilize my life after learning of the affair and her true unhappiness.

I recently reached a point where I wanted to discuss the background of the affair. In our last MC session, she confirmed it was an ONS at a company happy hour after drinks with a co-worker that she had grown very ‘close’ to. Following the session, more questions came up in my mind and she said she was ok with answering them but wanted it to be face-to-face. Since that meant about a week wait (she was going to Vegas for a conference), I sent the questions in an email (e.g. – did you love him, did you have an EA and for how long, were there any other EAs or PAs over our 20yr relationship, etc.). I wasn’t expecting her to respond to the email – just wanted to get them out there and give her time to think about them before we discussed them. To my surprise, she responded with the following:

I dont pretend to know how difficult this is, before we continue to discuss these details I need to know something.

do you truly believe we can get past this and all the hurt and pain that built up and build a stronger, healthier marriage and family? if you answer is yes - can you share what makes you believe that

After a good bit of thinking on my part, I responded with:

I think there is a chance...I won't lie and say I know anything for sure at this point. I believe it can happen because I've talked to folks that have been where we are or dealt with worse and come out on the other side better for the whole thing. It took them years, a lot of work, difficult discussions, lots of crying and pain, and drastic changes on both sides of the relationship.

I know in my heart that if I don't put everything into changing myself at the core or keep from giving up, no matter how much I hurt or how down I get, I will never be able to live with myself.

What about you - how would you answer that question?

We are supposed to talk tonight but she finally responded last night. In the meantime, I started to really think about why I wanted more details and eventually felt I was falling into bad habits of searching for more facts/details in order to determine my level of risk of getting hurt. I let her know that I didn’t want to live like that anymore or discuss the details of the affair either and just wanted to move on but that I did want to know her answer to the question she asked me. Here is her response:

Ok -

Before you read the following - this is a very selfish view on our relationship. Below is the stuff that eats at me every day - tearing at my heart.

so I have been thinking about this question for a really really really long time and my response to the question changes often. I constantly struggle with knowing deep in my heart that we will be able to have a healthy marriage and ultimately a family that we both want and deserve. There are core changes from both of us that are so deep rooted in each of us and in our relationship that I believe will be extremely difficult if not impossible to break through together.

Don't get me wrong - there are things that we can work on together to make our relationship different - it is already different now. But, I believe that at the core of our issues it's truly feeling loved by one another. Loved - meaning- respected, cherished, encouraged, supported, fascinated, desired, trusted, and so on.

I dont know if I will ever feel that you genuinely trust, respect, encourage, support me. I dont want to question it, I want to feel it when you touch me, I want to see it when you look at me or with the things you do, I want to hear it in your voice when you speak to me or even better, when you speak to someone about me. I want to feel that way with all of those ways to be loved. Sadly, I still question it. I honestly dont know how long it will take me to see you differently or what to look for. Part of me just wants to feel it and not try to figure it out, the other part of me realizes that I look at everything you do in a certain way because that is what i expect you to do and know the reasons behind it. Sometimes the past inhibits you from seeing the changes.

Selfishly - I want to redefine my non-negotiable's when it comes to what i want in a relationship and I am starting out with a really long list, but as I learn more about myself and some of the things in our relationship - I am revising that list.

At the end of it all - i dont know the answer.

Dude.

I've got a mug of tea. I've got music on the stereo. I've got time. that means you're about to get one of my patented BS ass kickings. I think you need it. I'll try to be as gentle as I can, but I think you need a wake up call.

How can I put this. WHAT THE FUCK?????

Your wife had an affair. Call it an exit affair. Call it an affair of desperation. Call it a fucking lemon cheesecake for all I care. SHE HAD AN AFFAIR. and please don't think for a second it was actualluy an ONS. People rarely have ONSs with people they have "grown close to". There's more you don't know. You're going into this like somehow not only is the blame equal but actually the onus is on you to do the hard work and let the past go. Did you read the bit where SHE was the one that betrayed YOU???

Reasons she DIDN'T hasve an affair

She didn't have an affair because she felt unloved

She didn't have an affair because she was so unhappy

She didn't have an affair because you didn't meet her requirements for marriage

she didn't have an affair because there are "difficulties in both of you you both need to work through"

She didn't have an affair because it was a tuesday

She didn't have an affair because she has a nut allergy and your dick happens to taste of almonds.

Reasons she DID have an affair

1. She's broken inside, and has pitiful coping mechanisms for whatever issues MAY exist in your marriage and for weaknesses in her own personality.

Things that are DEFINITELY happening in your marriage right now

1. you are being made to feel like this is a joint issue

2. you are being made to feel like whether you are able to let go of the past has an impact on whether you stay together

3. You are being burdered with some of the blame for her actions.

4. you are being given the lion's share of the work to do

Things that are PROBABLY happening in your marriage right now.

1. You are being lied to about the extent of the affair

2. Your wife is emotionally involved with another man - and probably still phyiscally involved.

Stuff I bet she's not doing but should be

1. Begging for your fogiveness

2. Asking you dailty how she can ease your pain

3. crying with shame when shelooks in the mirror

4. Makign time every day to read about her issues

5. talking with other people who have had affairs to try and work out what her issues are

I didn't think so. why do you want to reconcile with someone who isn't remorseful?

OK. Let's talk about some of this.

The affair is not your fault. It's not the fault of the marriage. It's not the fault of the children. It's not the fault of fucking Santa Claus. It's your wife's fault. you need to start getting a little pissed about this and recognise that she seems to have thew power and control in your marriage and TAKE IT BACK. she s expressing doubt as to whether you will ever feel the same way for her again because she wants it to be your fault that you cannot reconcile. she wants it to be your fault that it's too difficult to let go.

Tell her to take her list and shove it up her ass. YOU set the non-negotiables. Not her. they start with

1. The whole truth.

2. complete transparency. all passwords, all bank accounts, all emails accounts, facebook, everything

3. If she hasn't don ti already, then she hands in her resignation. Immediately.

4. She commits to complete NC with the other man

5. she gets over herself, takes ownership of her actions, and starts helping you heal

You are in limbo, and she is going to keep you there as long as you let her sit on the fence. Knock her off it. Personally I would hand her divorce papers. you don't have to finalise them and it will give her the shock she needs. Make absolutely no mistake. NO wayward spouse ever decided to recommit to the marriage becuase their husband was a nice man. YOU need to be strong. YOU need to be demanding. YOU need to realise that she has fucked you about, and is still fucking around with your head.

YOU deserve better. ashe can either be part ofyour life or not, but she needs to stop pissing about playing the victim and making you feel like the bad guy. You ned to turn this marriage around if you want her. If you still feel love for her, then the good news is that there is often a chance to get her back, but you need to do two things right now

1. throw away the current power positions in the marriage and establish yourself as the one with the control

2. Give her the shock of her life.

If you want her, she needs to look at you and think "Oh shit I fucked with the wrong guy" and not "He's easy to lie to". I recoghnise that you are in pain, confused and probably lonely. Your wife is supposed to be helping you with that, but insetad she is the cause. she will continue to sit on the fence until either you are a completely broken emptyy shell or you find your reserves of strength and anger and make her remember the strong man she married.

Put an end to it, one way or the other. Kick off the divorce. then tell your wife she needs to pull her head of of her ass and start fighting to keep you. Let the divorce happen. either you will get your wife back so you can fight together, or she will reveal she has nothing more to offer you. either way you will be on the road to recover instead of this nightmare you are in now..

Your username is lookign4justice. If you wait for it, you won't find it. If you want a fair crack at the whip, you nee to recognise that you are entitled to it, have done nothing wrong, and DEMAND it from your wayward wife.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 11:10 AM, November 16th (Friday)]

Your marriage has failed. You cannot save it.

You are not in reconciliation. You cannot R with this woman in this state. She blames you, puts the onus to fix things on you and demands reassurances from you, thereby shifting the responsibility onto you.

If you accept this in any capacity your life will be miserable because your wife lied to you, cheated on you, blamed you for her unhappiness and now requires you accept a list of non-negotiable marriage standards sight unseen that she can edit at any time.

Your wife had an affair, the prefix is just decoration on the cake.

LH summed it up nicely for you there. I would suggest you give up your marriage as done and set divorce in motion, since you are already separated and your wife shows zero signs of remorse or willingness to accept responsibility for her behavior, which is ground zero for R. Whatever IC she is seeing is filling her head with garbage if she's writing that nonsense.

She made it clear she doesn't want you, she wants a secure lifestyle that you support and your guarantee that will happen.

This relationship is doomed unless she pulls her head out of her ass. There's nothing you can do to make her do that. Keep working on yourself.

looking4justice,

First, in the intrest of brevity: what LonelyHusband said.

So here you are 6 months from dday. Your WW is not sure she can ever love you, let alone now.

She talks about many changes, but when do you start working on these changes? What has your WW done to change. In her IC has she discovered why she had the A, what was she searching for? If she has, what is she learning to do differently so that she will not turn to others when she has a need?

How long are you going to wait around? I really think it is time for you to start moving forward with YOUR life. Where do you want to be in another 6 months? A year form now?

My FWW's A's were exit A's, she was great at the A part, but too passive or poor a planner to ever get to doing the exiting part. She had a 5-year plan that never got beyond wanting to leave me.

I have a different view.

Caveat: I read you W's response as genuine and authentic. If I'm wrong, if she's playing the Victim role in a Drama Triangle (searchable), then ignore what I say here.

I think the basic existential concern for a M is exactly what your W brings up:

I believe that at the core of our issues it's truly feeling loved by one another. Loved - meaning- respected, cherished, encouraged, supported, fascinated, desired, trusted, and so on.

I read that to mean your W is concerned not with whether or not you love her or she loves you - she's dealing with whether or not you and/or she can feel loved.

If you can't feel love from another person, you probably can't be much of a partner.

Once you're communicating about feeling loved, R is possible.

You'll probably still have lots of work to do to deal with the A and with other, longer-standing issues, but if you're vulnerable enough with each other to get into your desire to feel loved, the sky's the limit.

I'd go with LH, StillGoing, and atsenaotie if your W is playing a role, but I'd go with my interpretation if she's being authentic. JMO, of course.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:16 PM, November 16th (Friday)]

For other BSs, how were you able to move forward with your life since you didn’t have the unconditional love/support from your WS such as them doing the ‘typical stuff’ to help you recover from the affair or having the assurance they love you / want the M to survive?

You said it here, right now you have to move forward with your life. If you have issues that need to be dealt with get into IC and do it for you. It sounds like she needs to do the same. If at some point you BOTH decide that your M is worth fighting for you go there then. She is not ready to truly R, she wants to be up on a pedestal while you bend into a pretzel trying to keep her happy. That is not sustainable. Of course this is from my reading one post and not knowing your true behind closed doors story.

If you want to save your M maybe let her go for now. She has alot to deal with beginning with owning the A. It is a 2 way street and right now she isn't on it.

I was going to agree with sisoon. I did read her answer as honest.

And then I realized - that it is very typical WS behavior and honestly she needs to rethink her position in this mess.

At the end of it all - i dont know the answer.

I get why she is asking these things of you. Her selfishness is telling her that if you can not agree to give her what she 'needs' then the exit affair was valid and she was right.

But if you give her what she 'needs' then you will make her have to face what she did and she doesnt want to do that.

To tell a BS that you will not R with them unless they commit to fully trust the WS, fully accept them back, and to 'go back to the way it was' is RUGSWEAPING.

She may or may not still be talking to another person, but she is still foggy, and she is still in her own selfish world, and by you guys being so good with each other as a seperated couple, she is getting a taste of the Cake.

What she wants - that's fantasy land stuff....Reality is that relationships are up and down. There are moments of extreme closeness and then there are times when you feel a little apart. That's life, that's just the way it is.

(((l4j)))

Even though maybe the answers here are not quite what you are looking for right now, you are still really new to SI even though you have known about the A for a bit. Folks here are genuine and sometimes a little outspoken. So please try and read everything and digest it and make sure you keep coming back. It really will help so much as you try and make decisions moving forward. Everyone here has BTDT...After my first post and being told I was not in R I almost didn't come back, it was not what I *wanted* to hear but it was what I *needed* to hear. And I thank God I stuck around

[This message edited by nooneeverthought at 12:47 PM, November 16th (Friday)]

I just wanted to chime in and echo what nooneeverthought said.

In the early days here it's hard to know which way is up, and 99.9% of the 2x4's being swung are from people who spent months or years in a similar situation and desperately and sincerely want to help you.

There's a lot of great advice here, but remember that at the end of the day you get to take what you need and leave the rest.

My $0.02? My FWH was having an exit affair. He convinced himself in his head that we were "done anyway" because I was "mean" and didn't "support" him. (Didn't support his drinking and abandoning our family )

The difference between your story and mine is that my FWH very quickly realized that it was his behaviors that were dissolving what was left of our fragile relationship.He "got it", and almost immediately realized that he was seeking a cheap exit from the damage that HE was causing.

"Getting it" is the only sign that R is going to fly, and at this point your WW sounds pretty clueless about the fact that she needs to own the lion's share of what's going on here.

Big hugs to you. Come and ask questions and/or vent anytime.

(((looking4justice)))

I should have linked this to you in my reply, good for folks new to the idea of R.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

Okay, my STBXWW had an exit affair. We got over that one, it was her regular plain old cheating affair that did us in.

Funny thing about her exit affair, she was telling everyone she knew about how great I was, and how wonderful our marriage was, right up until she met OP, then she started sneaking around in affair ways and demonizing me and the marriage, and after it was discovered she had decided it was an exit affair. I know the details because I was very successful in digging up all of her old communication. I could give you a lengthy treatise on why you should be sceptical of exit affair claims made after discovery, but it is probably sufficient to suggest you look up delusions with respect to cognitive dissonance.

I really believe that an exit affair is a near mythical beast, often spoken of but rarely encountered. I only know of one person who has a good claim to having had an exit affair, and even that one I think was more of a giant fuck you on the way out than it was a way out.

The best way to save your marriage and R, is to insist on her facing responsibility for her choices, and doing the work. A big part of why my STBXWW is a STBX is because the work was exhausting and lengthy, and I took a break to try to catch my breath and enjoy life too early, and she fell back on her poor coping skills during that time. That was 4 years after discovery, and I decided that with an average recovery time of 2 to 5 years, I just couldn't go through life like that.

looking4justice:

Slightly different perspective from me. My story is very much like yours. My wife had an affair as a divorce substitute. We are also currently separated. Our MC sessions have been spent almost exclusively dealing with her issues (pre and post A). For the most part I've had to wade through the mess without her doing the 'typical stuff' to help me recover from the affair. She is also uncertain whether I love her and whether we can ever reconcile. And, like you, I've been working very hard to change myself lately (with good success as well).

So I know exactly where you are at I think.

For me, I've slowly realised I cannot depend on what she will do or think anymore. It changes on a weekly basis, and it is exhausting to keep up with. In my mind, the marriage is on hold and it will be until she can stabilize and make up her mind. I realize most likely one day soon she'll decide it is over. Working on myself is very therapeutic in that regard. In the beginning I felt I had no control over anything, everything that happened was at the mercy of my wife. By working hard on myself, not just the failing she used to justify the affair but in general, I have control back. Whether she ultimately decide she wants to stay or not, I'll be a better person.

Unfortunately though, I don't think the true healing and recovery cannot happen until my wife commits one way or the other. Until then the whole affair beast just has to stay locked in it's cage

nooneeverthought is spot on... I too found SI 7 months after finding out about the A... and 2 days before the PA bombshell hit me. I received much of the same feedback you're getting here, and trust me when I say it will behoove you to listen to and absorb this advice. It may be harshly worded, IMO, but the points that LH makes are quite valid.

My W's A was also of the exit-variety, whether she knows or admits it, and she did not really turn around or start feeling remorse until I told her I was considering separation.

facing responsibility for her choices

That's probably the key difference between being authentic and playing a role in the Drama Triangle. If she's authentic in dealing with her ability to feel your love, she'll face herelf, own her crap, and change her thoughts, feelings, and behavior.

If she's role-playing, you'll see & hear blameshifting, gaslighting, and rug-sweeping.

From time to time, a BS comes on and laments that love was not enough to prevent an A. I was one of them It's finally getting through to me that my W couldn't take in the love that was offered to her, by me, by friends, by family. She didn't recognize real love, so she grabbed for the fake love offered by ow. Feeling - accepting - the love she's given is a large part of the work she has to do to 'fix' herself.

Meanwhile, I think that R requires me to determine if my W really loves me and to accept it if I think she does.

If that's what your W wrote about, she could be a very good candidate for R, but time, and what she does with the time, will tell.

I really appreciate all of the responses I've received today! I am often amazed at the time individuals dealing with their own pain and struggles take to help others out.

As several have noted, I read everyone's posts and take their views and recommendations into consideration as part of my process of deciding how to move forward. I realize that all you have to go off of is my perspective and only a small window into my world. I also recognize that everyone’s perspective and thoughts are often guided by their own experiences. In the end, I recognize it is my decision and I have to deal with the consequences.

I've been in counseling since DDay+3 (9 months) on an almost weekly basis. Obviously she is much more intimate with my situation and right now she sees a lot of similarities between how my WW and I are struggling to open ourselves back up to the chances of getting hurt again. My WW only started IC about 3 months ago, so to some degree I'm a bit ahead of her in the ‘growth’ process. Her recommendation is to continue focusing on myself (e.g. – work on new coping skills, practice healthier techniques for dealing with all of my anxieties), to avoid playing games and to be honest with my wife, and to recognize that this is a long process and that I’ve made a great deal of progress since I first came to her office. She is able to cite several times I’ve said ‘I don’t think I can go on without…’ only to see myself constantly move beyond that which I thought would forever hold me back (e.g. – knowing OM’s name).

I know intellectually that what my WS is saying and doing makes sense given what has happened in our M (not in any way excusing the A). If she had simply said ‘I love you’ and ‘I will never do it again’ begging for my forgiveness, I would have only had a temporary sense of relief. I know that if she ever says she loves me again, that she’s reached that conclusion after a lot of self-discovery and thinking about our marriage.

She has verbally confronted me in conversation and said ‘I take full responsibility for the A and my part with the issues in our M’ (although at the time I didn’t ask her for specifics or what she was working on to change). She also left her very promising job/career shortly after DDay because the OM was a married co-worker and she felt ashamed and disgusted with herself at the sight of him and that her job at the time wouldn’t provide her the flexibility and stress-free environment to be able to focus on her/our recovery. She is very remorseful and deals with ‘deep devastating pain’ and her greatest fear is that we get back together and either I go back to my unhealthy ways or she doesn’t build the tools necessary to better cope and communicate with me ultimately leading to hurting me and the girls again. But she has a remarkable ability to compartmentalize her reality to allow her to cope with the demands of her life without constantly breaking down into tears at work, in front of our kids, friends, etc… This apparently has been one of her coping skills throughout our marriage which has helped explain why we saw the marriage very differently – she always seemed so happy with what I considered ‘normal’ marital issues but deep down she felt unloved. But it is this very skill that makes things so hard for me – I only get a glimpse into how she feels and thinks on very rare occasions. And she struggles with opening up to me.

I genuinely believe she is not with the OM anymore (although I still have my anxieties and triggers) and she is starting to really see the things she does which are unhealthy and require changes. I just feel like we are in two places – I’m willing to offer the gift of reconciliation, take the risk of getting hurt again, put belief in the two of us that we can truly change, and recognize that things won’t be perfect for some time – whereas she seems unable to open up to me or take the same risks at this point. I gravitate towards sisoon’s interpretation and recognize we both have a great deal to work on. Where I struggle the most, is making those changes in light of the affair and lack of support from the one person that I’ve looked to my entire adult life.

As an example, I’ve explained to her before - I know I’ve had a huge issue trusting her and treating her like she’s going to cheat on me for 20yrs (this goes back to my childhood and is only exacerbated by some of her unhealthy ways) often reading her text messages, looking at her calendars and emails, and holding double-standards in an effort to control her opportunities. I now recognize my issues and want to get to a point in my life where I am able to trust another individual without the constant negative-thinking. To make this kind of change without the weight of an affair is extremely difficult but add in the instability brought by the affair and it feels nearly impossible. If she’d be open to showing me her text messages, phone records, emails, etc. for a temporary time, I feel it would help me heal and be more effective at making the core changes but for now she refuses to open up to me partly because I’ve ‘controlled’ her our entire marriage and partly because it would mean opening back up to me which is something she isn’t ready to do not knowing if she wants to save the marriage. She feels that the affair only gives me more ‘ammo’ for being able to control her and shut her down…something she refuses to go back to.

And this is just one of several unhealthy issues I am trying to deal with. It’s a catch-22!

I also do not believe in exit affairs. I think that is what many waywards need to tell themselves to engage in the affair. "I divorced you in my head". It lessens the guilt and shame. They get to keep their positive view of themselves, you know..their affair is "different" and not seedy at all, "I'm not like Arnold or Tiger, I'm a good person".

Your wife has lots of thoughts (or manybes) concerning what she wants from you, unconditional trust at the forefront. She might as well ask you to lay at the front door when she arrives home so she something to wipe her shoes off with.

Trust is earned. Trust is shown, not given.

Two days ago my husband had to drive to a worksite 8 hours away. He had to drive through an area near the ap residence. He called me every half hour or less(naming the town he just drove past), and put the breadcrumb tracker on his gps. I never asked him to do any of that. EAch time he called, it was like he was calling for the first time. Light, casual, just saying hello. I felt my heart open up just a bit more.

I would be concerned over her not answering your questions until YOU answer hers. She is negotiating. She wants to be paid...upfront before she will commit to anything. She wants all your cards on the table. Has she always been this way? Her way or no way? She is trying to control the outcome of her answers, by having you paint yourself into a corner. Then she can point at you and say "see, I knew you couldnt change, you said you would be xyz no matter what"

She refuses to give you the name of her OM?

And she does not want to be completely transparent with you...passwords, phone access, etc.

This is not R...or even a step toward R.

This is about her controling you.

[This message edited by coastofsomewhere at 3:31 PM, November 16th (Friday)]

I haven't asked for the OM's name since DDay when she refused because I'd always threatened her if she cheated I'd make her and him pay (sad that I was saying that sort o stuff with no real reason or evidence she'd ever cheated). She was afraid of what I'd do and knew I was very vengeful but also didn't want me to ruin his family as well.

I believe I have his license plate number and the neighborhood he lives in (long story) and with some dectecfive work I could figure his identity out. But I've talked a lot with my counselor and others and realize knowing his name will almost certainly cause more harm than good. Of course if we divorce, all bets are off.

As for access to her texts, emails, etc...I haven't asked for them because I know what her answer would be and, more importantly, know if she did give me access it would serve to feed my unhealthy ways and only temporarily help me (there's never enough info to guarantee she won't hurt me again - I'd start to wonder if she has a secret email, is talking to him from her work desk phone, etc).

Does the om spouse know of the affair?

but also didn't want me to ruin his family as well.

Your WW and her MM have done the job of ruining his family.

His BW needs and deserves to know the truth.

Trust me...she isn't protecting you or his family...she is protecting herself and her MM.