SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am honestly asking. How is acknowledging challenges and discussing them blameshifting? So if you're parents do you simply tell your children "NO" without finding out their thought processes so you can address the nexus of their choices? Just "bad!!! Now go to your room?". How does that work?

I get that the reasons, circumstances and environment behind such painful devastating choices don't matter to the recipient of those choices. They very much matter to the perpetrator, though. Without looking closely at how that particular cluster fuck triggered those certain reactions and activated those coping mechanisms you're setting yourself up for situational healing. The "I'm healthy as long as I use "you" as a barometer" emergency plan.

Healing is individual. It's not responses to another's hurt or anger. THAT is actually wayward mindset. That wayward manual that keeps getting talked about and quoted. That's in the first chapters. Using another to determine you.

I am baffled by this. Yep, I so get the excuses and how those are designed to deflect and re-route. The "if you hadn't don't xyz then I wouldn't have done abc". "You" can actually see that in places that aren't the wayward forum as well. The classic pre-gaming bullshit.

Identifying risks and dangers ain't that, though. It's smart and it's vital. I don't go mountain climbing in short sleeves, shorts and running shoes. People would think I was mentally deficient if I said, "I won't get cold, slip, fall because that's blameshifting. I can just will myself warm and safe".

I don't see a stop sign, so to answer your question, "What is blameshifting?"

It is simply blaming your spouse instead of where the blame actually falls - on you.

The secret life was your choice. The lying was your choice. Not caring for your spouse and protecting your marriage from an intruder (your lover) was your choice.

If your marriage was that bad before the affair, then separation / divorce / marriage counseling / or coming up with a game plan on making a great marriage instead of a mediocre marriage were options.

Well, in my case, it was now-ex actually saying the words "it's all your fault" to me, as if he had no personal responsibility or fault in his choice to cheat. He had no other choice you see, as I was such a horrible, evil monster. I made him cheat.

Blameshifting is not taking responsibility for your own attitude and actions.

Healing is individual. It's not responses to another's hurt or anger.

I also strongly believe that healing is individual. I see many Betrayed Spouses blame their Wayward for their lack of healing and for other non-affair but "wayward"-like behavior. They take the high-road because they "didn't have an affair" and blame their reactions on the Wayward. It seems like a never ending cycle until they recognize it.

I get that the reasons, circumstances and environment behind such painful devastating choices don't matter to the recipient of those choices.

Actually, they mattered a lot to me. There were a lot of reasons for my WS's affair, a lot of circumstances and history and issues in our relationship that were part of the equation. It was essential for both of us to understand all of that, work on it, change it, etc.

The final decision to cheat was, of course, his.

Blameshifting in our case happened when he took himself and his decision out of the equation and told me that our relationship was ending because of my issues with sex, money, communication and anything else he could hang his hat on. Like our relationship had been (only) in my control and I'd screwed it up so it was over and he (and the affair) had nothing to do with it.

Blameshifting was about making me feel worse about myself than I did about him cheating.

My WS did not do this for long. It was happening before he was interested in actually figuring out why he had an affair. It was happening when he was desperately trying to find a way to pretend that the affair was predestined, inescapable, and otherwise outside of his capacity to avoid.

That is how I understand blameshifting.

ETA - I didn't mean to tag this post with a bullseye, oops!

[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 11:12 PM, August 4th (Sunday)]

The "if you hadn't don't xyz then I wouldn't have done abc".

Yup---that's it.

The BS will always remind the WS that they have the moral high ground because they did not cheat. This is of course correct, but a relationship is two people and there is blame on both sides.

The BS will always remind the WS that they have the moral high ground because they did not cheat. This is of course correct, but a relationship is two people and there is blame on both sides.

Moral high ground? Yeah, not a fan of the term or the concept. Regardless, still don't see how examining the circumstances and environment is blaming another for choices. It isn't.

If your marriage was that bad before the affair, then separation / divorce / marriage counseling / or coming up with a game plan on making a great marriage instead of a mediocre marriage were options.

Yep. So, if the partner left because things were "so bad" rather than cheated...who would be to blame then? Seems pretty simplistic.

People know when they're treating their partner like shit. It shouldn't be up to the other to call them out or set ultimatums. That's a fair amount of "blameshifting" all on its own.

The choice to cheat isn't up for debate. That was never the point.

The question was how acknowledging challenges,and discussing them blameshifting? It is quite possible to discuss and examine while owning every bit of your shit, no? If not, how the hell do you make yourself safe in all situations if you can't dig into how one responds when experiencing certain stressors or traumas?

in my relationship I see it as such..

pre reconciliation my wh gave reasons why he did what he did,,,, his upbringing, stress, me, our families, he spoke of these things as if they 'made' him do what he did and he was powerless to them.

now we are in reconciliation, he still recognises that these things have affected him, his upbringing has informed to some extent his choices, he finds making the right choice harder when he is under stress he is also owning the fact that despite those issues he still made those choices, when faced with a multitude of options and coping mechanisms he chose the wrong ones. he is working on the issues that contributed to his making the wrong choice but he is no longer acting as if he was a powerless agent to those issues.

Are you looking for specific examples of a wayward not taking responsibility for problems in the marriage, but blaming their spouse instead?

still don't see how examining the circumstances and environment is blaming another for choices. It isn't

I agree, examining the circumstances and environment that led to the A (or anything else really) is not blaming another for choices. I believe that examining the circumstances and the environment that led to wayward behaviour is a vital exercise to identify, and if possible eliminate, risks and vulnerabilities. The way I see it the "blame" does not lie in the circumstances or the environment, the "blame" lies in the responses to the circumstances or the environment. As long as the spouse who behaved waywardly (and that could be either the WS or the BS..depends what we are dealing with here) acknowledges that, then there is no problem.

Blameshifting is something else altogether. Blameshifting in my definition is when the person says "These were the circumstances that MADE me act like that" uh-huh... no circumstance can MAKE you act in a particular way... how we react to circumstances is our own responsibility.

[This message edited by ItsaClimb at 6:30 AM, August 5th (Monday)]

In examining the citcumstances and environment when the WS says that prior to the A, these were the things that I was unhappy with the tendency of the BS is to either deny they existed, insist that they didn't know, or cite a lack of communication and understanding. All of this 'appears' to place the blame on the environment and cicurmstances and can lead to blame shifting. I agree however that it is the choice to have the A, the response to that environment and circumstances that is the core of the problem.

Once again, an interesting topic for thought, Uncertainone!

I totally agree with this in the simple sense:

The "if you hadn't don't xyz then I wouldn't have done abc".

But I recognize it gets a whole lot more complicated sometimes.

We all came to this site because of infidelity whether we are a BS or WS, and for that reason, I understand that a lot of topics revolve around the rights and wrongs and the choices we make as they relate to infidelity. But in the larger scheme of things, we do rights and wrong and make choices due to a lot of things that have nothing to do with infidelity (but might be just as bad in the eyes of some).

I actually agree that many BS will post and vent on the forums, blaming everything that is wrong in their lives, and their own continuing questionable choices, on the fact they were cheated on. Once in awhile they get called out on it, but I think most often, they get support and some form of agreement that everything wrong is all the WS's fault.

I think in a lot of marriages, there are big problems that can lead to an increased chance of cheating even though that is in no way a justification for anybody's choice to do that.

The one biggie that comes to mind is when one has a low or non-existent sex drive and the other has a high drive and the one with the low drive always rejects and just doesn't seem to care about the needs of the other. I also recognize the one who ends up cheating is sometimes just looking for closeness, intimacy and warmth, as much as they are looking for sex. And if this is missing in the M, sometimes it really is mostly the fault of one person or the other (not necessarily both, but also could be both...that is my opinion).

In my observation, even when a new BS comes on the forum to admit this huge problem was a precipitator to their spouse having an A, many BS will come on and say essentially "no, that is not the reason he/she did it. It is because he/she is BROKEN (or whatever). And they will offer up evidence of their own case, where they had sex every day for 20 years, whenever he wanted it, and he still cheated. (as if that is any evidence at all to why somebody else cheated after years of trying to work things out with the lack of sex or intimacy).

And in spite of what I have said here, I feel that both of my H's were almost 100% at fault for not only their choice to cheat, but also for anything that was wrong in our M.

I would be one of those who did everything possible to make my first H happy, to be what he wanted in a woman, and never or rarely reject. Yet he went to prostitutes and cheated on me all throughout our M. No, I won't be taking any blame for that, none at all. He has never once implied it was my fault he cheated, so I can't say he blameshifted that. Everybody has their own thing though. He did not blame me but he downplayed it like it was not that big of a deal...just another sin like overeating, or something. So I should not be so mad. He also told people it was both our faults we got divorced. (Yeah, the only way it was my fault was because I kicked him out after the last d-day and filed...I could have just continued to put up with it, I guess).

In my current M, I did acknowledge some things about the "environment" in our M that I could improve on my part and I have worked on that, quite successfully, I believe. We had been fighting over our business and things my H was doing behind my back financially, at the time the A started. Well, how could that be my fault? It wasn't and I'm not sure there was a right way to handle it but I know during that time I was calling him a stupid idiot and putting him down a lot, and telling him he was "bringing me down."

He claims he started to feel I would actually be better off without him. And then the OW came on the scene, flattering him every day (having no clue about his unwise business decisions and the late payments he had going on and all that, of course) probably telling him that he was a brilliant business man and essentially on the same level as God. None of this gives my H the reason to cheat, but it is something that I felt needed to be looked at in our story, and is a tad more understandable to me than what my XH did.

But a biggie for me is that my current H never blamed this on me. He never once brought up me calling him names, except for he did say that he did come to believe he was bringing me down. He has consistently told me for seven years now, that none of it was my fault, and he is extremely sorry. Even though I think I have actually improved myself, he has made it clear that I really did not need to as some "condition" for him not repeating the behavior. He makes it clear he loves me as I am, and it was not my fault he got involved with OW.

Interesting question. Certainly examining the circumstances in which the choices were made is valid, but often correlation is described as causation, and sometimes it is even turned around backwards, sort of a wet streets cause rain kind of thinking...

I think it is like art... or porn... or the difference between them... I'm not sure I can explain it, but I can tell you when I see it.

Blameshifting is causation, while "acknowledging challenges and discussing them" is correlation.

When I turned 40 and noticed some grey hairs, and DH said (from across the room) "Oh yeah, I see them," I felt sad, and I was needing reassurance that I'm still beautiful. That's me expressing my feelings and needs, without blame: correlation. The fatal error I made, was in failing to acknowledge and discuss my feelings, and choosing instead to blame DH for not "making me" feel beautiful.

Blameshifting is, "I felt X because you did/said Y." Acknowledging challenges is, "I felt X when you did/said Y."

ETA: I cross-posted with Aesir; don't want to give the impression I was responding to or refuting him

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 10:31 AM, August 5th (Monday)]

Great post, Bobbie sue.

Aesir, I'm not sure that correlation is as often used as causation as its presented to be. Sometimes it's just facts and treated as a whining excuse when a WS uses it and a dismissed little issue conflated by a WS when a BS does it.

Sad thing is that surviving something is far different than thriving. I survived my childhood, in the literal sense. I thrived doing it because of the work I put in to do just that. That involved me owning my shit but also putting the blame exactly where it belonged. Not on my shoulders but the sick fucks that earned it.

I had a highly recommended shrink tell me it didn't happen because I had no shame and ALL sexual abuse victims have shame. Uh fuck that shit. I endured the pain and the horror of their actions so I should also feels a sense of shame? Not if I lived through 100 childhoods like that. That shame is theirs to feel. Not mine!

I refused to allow their abuse of me to be my get out of jail card, though. That, to me, would be where my shame came into it. That's my choice and choosing to release myself of all liability because they owned a huge portion would be ruinous.

Infidelity seems to somehow be treated as the "pedophile" in the ranks of prisoners. It's even been quoted by some as equal in travesty. It makes ALL reasons "blah blah blah whine" excuses not worth entertaining as how does it matter, after all. Everyone knows there ain't no rehabilitation for them (I happen to agree completely with that in the case of pediphiles, BTW).

Circumstances are extremely relevant for the WS to examine, to me. I believe some would never have cheated if certain things hadn't occurred. They never chose that option before and may never again, but if they don't find that thought process that enabled it to justify in that circumstance they'll always be at risk.

Lost in Toronto, I can see that and understand it. I think it's common to deflect and re-route. It gets no one anywhere. Just like the choice to cheat's nexus is in the though processes long before its ever made so is that blameshifting mentality. In fact, I'd say it's a causation all on its own and then the race is more whole will play that card first.

Can I get by with saying, "I know it when I see it"?

Actually, I wish that was the truth. There are times when I can clearly see it is blameshifting/gaslighting.

Other times, however, she says she believed things about me and I am left wondering whether she really believes it, or is she just playing a mind game.

In any case, I do think it is necessary to understand how we got here -- and that includes listening to her perspective. Even if I think it is bullshit, I need to know what she is capable of thinking and why. Otherwise, how can I access our chances for a successful R?

Her PA approach to problems certainly played a part. Is it really smart to now tell her to STFU?

Of course I contributed to the problems in the M. I need to understand and own those. If not for this M, at least for myself personally and for future relationships.

She claims she believed I had been involved in affairs forever. Her "evidence" of that is weak, and often borders on the bizarre.

I can recall her calling to say she and the kids were going to drop by my office when I was working late. Sometimes when I said, "come on by" they would never show up. Other times, they would only stay for a moment.

It was obvious to me checking up on me. But, I did not approach it head on. I thought I would appear defensive. And, I was a little aggravated because she questioned me while I was busting my ass.

What I should have done was recognized she was insecure and approached the subject directly. I should have seen it as an opportunity to get her concerns out in the open. Told her I did not mind he coming by -- but I wanted to address the real reason.

UO,

I think this is an excellent thread and can really get a lot of us thinking. I absolutely agree that exploring the environment and circumstances within the M is not blameshifting. Everyone needs to own their own shit. BS's are certainly guilty of creating a toxic atmosphere within the M. I know I committed my share of sins - getting emotional, yelling, discounting xWW concerns or opinions, etc. I owned that and still do and am conciously making efforts to keep those behaviors in the past. xWW even commented that she was able to see the difference in my behavior before she left.

But when those circumstances and environmental factors become an excuse to cheat, then it is blameshifting. Like you said - "if you hadn't don't xyz then I wouldn't have done abc".

And in my mind, the worst of the blameshifting statements is the all too common - "Well the M was already over anyway". Uh... no it wasn't. Not if there was no D and we are still living together. IMO as part of the M contract both parties have an obligation to work through their issues and problems to try to make it work. Even D'ing because you are "not happy" is a cop out in my book - (And I'm not trying to judge anyone, just stating my opinion).

One of the common lines on here is accepting responsibility for "50% of the marriage problems, 100% of the cheating" by WSs. This is a shorthand kind of way of splitting up the two elements: the choice to cheat and the state of the marriage, and in that sense it's completely accurate and very helpful to people.

But, truth be told, I'm sure that that 50% is sometimes not very accurate. There are some stories on here where it's clear that the cheater bears a lot of responsibility for a bad marriage (in which case, you wonder why the BS put up with that person for so long, and hope that the cheating is the final straw so they'll finally dump the asshole). In other cases, you hear of BSs who aren't exactly saints, either. (In these cases, you have to wonder about how true that is, too -- is the cheater making this up to garner sympathy? Or is the BS going through the usual attempt to grab onto control by thinking they could have done something to prevent this from happening?/going through the usual self-blame thing?) So that 50% may be an average, accurate only perhaps if you factor in the less responsible party's responsibility for putting up with a shitty relationship.

Whatever the "true" split of blame in the problems in the relationship is, it's kind of irrelevant. Both the BS and WS have to sit back and reevaluate the M and try to figure out whether they should and can rebuild. This is, as is endlessly repeated on here, a separate exercise from the WS figuring out what made it OK for them to respond to the stresses in their lives (whether marital or FOO or other) by cheating, which is never, ever a healthy response -- for them, not just for all the people hurt by it. Even in the hardest-case scenario, where your sympathy for the WS would be at an all-time high (say, a woman who had a terrible childhood who was married to an abuser), having an A is not a healthy or constructive response. Understandable, perhaps. But then, infidelity is pretty understandable. You'd have to be an idiot to see that it's a totally common human response/flaw and -- heck, who wouldn't like a bit of slap-n-tickle? But a good way to live? Not.

In its purest sense, we all know what blameshifting is. It's exaggerating what was wrong with the M in order to justify the choice to cheat. Even where the characterization of what was wrong with the M is accurate, it's still illegitimate to blame adultery on these issues. That's quite a different thing from how the WS justified those choices to him or herself in the first place, or the emotional place they were at when they made those choices.

[This message edited by Blobette at 4:26 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

@Blobette:

One of the common lines on here is accepting responsibility for "50% of the marriage problems, 100% of the cheating" by WS's.

I agree. As I look back, my selfish traipse down the path of "pre-cheating" and the cheating itself was littered with all kinds of little things I did to undermine my wife, and my marriage. Corrosive, poisonous stuff. Gotta rationalize and justify in order to make what is so wrong suddenly SEEM right, right? Let the delusion fest begin!

This behavior I employed is one of the things I hate the most about my lying, cheating self. And the grace my BW has shown in forgiven me has been a lesson in what a loving, caring, healthy human being is capable of in the face of unspeakable hurt. I undermined a true gem (my BW) in order to polish and marvel at and project beauty onto a broken chunk of cubic zirconia (my xAP). Ugh...what a catch I am...

I accept 89.75% of the responsibility for our marriage problems, and 101% of the cheating problem.

God what a cruel, selfish a-hole I was...

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 12:29 PM, August 5th (Monday)]