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Both of my kids have been throwing fits NON STOP!!!!!

It's gotten so bad that I have broken down crying and sat outside just for a break.

Dd is her typical screaming because she doesn't get her way self. I thought we had gotten past that. School had helped so much but with no school her behaviours have started despite every damn bit of routine I have kept, the same schedule and same concequences for bad behaviour. She will literally SCREAM All. Day. Long... When she doesn't get her way. I am at the end of my rope with her!

DS is just as bad! His tantrums are getting more intense. He also is demanding. He will repeat "I want milk" over and over and over until I hand him a cup of milk. If I say I will get it in a minute he will say it louder and louder, then starts reaming.

I have had to tape up and hide pretty much everything. Started to get my art supplies out with the rule they aren't to touch any of it (they have their own art bin). Found MY stuff open and their room covered in pen and marker.

They aren't supposed to leave their room in the morning unless its to wake us up. 5am this morning I woke to find them both downstairs eating junk food (dd used a chair to get on the counter then into treat cupboard).

Neither of them listen to anything I say.

Dd is now soiling herself. Her bowels don't work, fine but she CAN pee on the toilet and was doing it just fine. Suddenly she will sit on the sofa pee herself until she's soaked and stay there. I am toileting her hourly and still she's not peeing on the toilet. Her eating has gone downhill as well and at this point I'm ready to demand the doctor put in a feeding tube. I am trying everything to get her to eat and I know she CAN eat so I'm not going to have her die or be accused of neglecting her.

Constant repetitive behaviour.

Constant fighting everything I say.

I really am at the point I want dd hospitalized for the feeding issue and DS tested for autism.

Dd is 5. DS is 3.

I have a call into DD's behavioural ped but lord knows when we will get in to see her.

Any advice?

I would absolutely have them tested. This sounds very much like my nephew, who is on the spectrum.

He wasn't diagnosed until 6, and only recently (he is now 14) does it seem like he is functioning well.

The bathroom and screaming stuff in particular would make me think autism.

Of course, I'm not a professional, so its just an opinion.

(((DrgnHeart)))

He will repeat "I want milk" over and over and over until I hand him a cup of milk.

You give it to him???? I don't deal well with tyrants regardless of their size/age.

If you continue to give them what they want when they act that way then expect that behavior to continue.

Here's what I would do...

DS: "I Want Milk" said loudly and repeatedly.

Me: "You will get milk when you can ask for it in a respectful tone and wait patiently for me to get it" (you may have to explain what you mean by respectful tone)

Then stand back and wait for the tantrum to ensue... and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...

Do not give in to his demands.

You may repeat your directions about respectful tone and waiting patiently, but don't do it in the middle of the tantrum *he won't hear you anyway*

If you want to see a change in the behavior then only "reward" the positive behavior and ignore the negative/tantrum behavior.

As for DD's wetting and soiling... She's small enough to go back into pull-ups - at least it will save the furniture and cut down on the laundry.

Sounds less like Autism and more like lack of boundaries and expectations at home.

PS: I have taught Autistic and behaviorally challenged children for over 10 years now at all age levels. And my DS has sensory issues that cause some serious tantrums when he was much younger.

Yes, get them tested. In the meantime, try making them feel like they have some "control".

Like with the junk food. First they can have this or this healthy choice, then a pre-measured serving of a treat.

Give their good behavior attention. Praise when your DD is dry before you take her to the potty...even if she doesn't use the potty. Basically, catch them being good. Sometimes we get into a cycle where we only give attention for the bad behaviors so they increase them, because negative attention is better than nothing. Not saying you're not paying attention, just saying in a kid's mind they might go the easy way and get what they want AND attention, KWIM?

You said same schedule, same consequences...what if you switched it up and surprised them, your DD especially? She's screaming, you say that sounds like fun...then scream too. You can make it silly and making funny noises. I find that distraction is a wonderful discipline tool. That our responses to bad behavior don't always have to be negative. We can have a sense of humor.

When all else fails, letting them know that nagging mommy when she's answered them means they will need to leave the room. Or that calling for milk over and over will mean no milk for the rest of the day, or until an appointed time. Rewarding them by giving in will increase the bad behaviors. When someone doesn't know when they'll be rewarded, just that they will, they increase the behavior in hopes it will happen sooner. It's the principle behind those small lottery game payouts...to keep you hooked.

That may sound like it contradicts what I posted earlier, but note I said positive attention for positive behaviors...no matter how small at first. And the distraction isn't giving in but rather pulling them away from the contention and focusing on something else.

As for the potty issue, if you know she can control her bladder but not her bowels and she wets all over herself, try to look at why. I know some kids that do that because they simply don't want to stop an activity. If it's TV, shut off the TV. Have her help clean up the mess. She'll learn that her desired outcome...more time doing whatever...is actually cut short and she has to do the unpleasant task of cleaning up after herself.

All that said, do you think this is some kind of delayed regression now that things have calmed down from moving away from the ILs?

Thank you.

I know kids can have tantrums and be typical brats lol. But this is constant. Every day is screaming. Every day is a fight.

The fact that dd is going backwards with toileting and eating has me questioning what the hell I'm doing wrong.

I just read the other reponces.

To touch on DS:

Yes I usually give in and give him the milk. I have tried so hard to wait out the tantrum or repetitive behaviour but it just escalates so bad that I can't take the screaming. My bad I know.

I make dd clean herself up each time. She is in pull ups. Wanted to wear her underwear and I thought woohoo. She went to the bathroom great but then suddenly wanted pull ups back on and is soiling through the pull ups.

both kids are as defiant as can be. They will scream NO! At the top of their lungs. Bed time is brutal! I haven't had melatonin and holy crap! Both kids scream for at least an hour after we put them to bed! Same thing over and over. It's that over an over that's worrying me.

Dd was seen by many doctors and we were told by all that she's not on the spectrum.

DS was never seen and it's his acting out, picking at his nails, repeating everything over and over that's got me worried.

I agree with JRC on this one.

By giving in to the tantrums, you are just teaching them that behaving badly will get them what they want.

Yes, have them tested, but I've noticed an increasing trend in how quick current society is to "diagnose" kids with behavioral/mental problems when in fact some good old fashioned discipline would do them a lot more good than being dosed with meds.

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 7:51 PM, August 6th (Tuesday)]

I'm thinking this is a result of the extreme turmoil in your lives due to the IL's and so forth. Absolutely go ahead and get them tested if you feel in your gut that's necessary. However, I'm thinking this is psychological as in IL's, lack of boundaries, emotional hurts, and just overall too many upheavals & drama in their lives at a time when kids are normally dramatic anyway.

((((HUGS)))

I don't want DS to be on the spectrum but his repeating everything is just odd. Sometimes I wonder if he actually hears me.

We do discipline. Time outs and spankings.

It's been four months since we moved. Things are so much better here. But yes it's a huge change. No longer can mil defy me and give the kids what they want. They have to deal with "what mom and dad says is rule". Must be hard on them. Confusing.

But why all of a sudden would they be acting out? We have gotten to sitting down together for meals (dd never would do that). We all play outside together. They know that mommy and daddy are always here for them.

But every day they seem to act out more and more. Their great grandmother just came for a visit. A source of anger for me with wh but nothing to do with the kids. They loved seeing her and she loved seeing them.

(I wanted wh to inquire about what she was told about us leaving/ moving. From the posts on fb by his parents the impression is that we left of our own accord, not kicked out, and that we left them in hardship by leaving and refused to let them see the kids. I wanted to know what his grandmother was told. Wh said he didn't care what she was told.)

Dd has been having her issues with peeing before the visit so I don't think it's that.

Perhaps I can have the behaviour management councillor come in for a home visit. If the stress of the move is comin out now it's got to be dealt with.

(((hugs)))

Even though it has been 4 months since you moved, it may still seem "recent" to the kids and can be affecting them.

For your DD, her backtracking may be medical or emotional or a combination of both. Her wetting herself may be a way that she feels she is able to exert control over her body when she feels like she does not have much control at all. I don't know, it is just a theory.

For your DS, if he has not shown autistic tendencies before then I am doubtful he is on the spectrum. But it cannot hurt to get him checked. And him repeating everything may be because he has learned that if he does this long enough then you will given into whatever he is repeating.

I read a study once (I do not have a source for this) where they tested 3 sets of mice. Each mouse was in a cage with a lever they could push. In the first set, every time the mouse pushed the lever they got food. With the second set, nothing happened when they pushed the lever. With the third set, the mouse would randomly get food when they pushed the lever. What the study found was the first set of mice pushed the lever only when they were hungry. The second set never pushed the lever. The third set pushed the lever constantly because they never knew when they would get a reward so they just kept at it (I always get the image of Vegas and the one-armed bandit when I think of this study...)

Not to compare your DS to a mouse, but I think he is displaying some of that behavior because you are not consistent. He constantly repeats himself because you randomly give in to what he wants. Consistency is so important with kids. Teaching them that "No means NO!" is important. Because if no means maybe and sometimes yes, then they will just push and push and push until you give in.

As far as your stuff and junk food ad anything else they should not get into, you need to lock it up. Expecting them to stay out of "good" stuff at this age is not reasonable. Either lock it up or do not bring it into the house. I am not saying deny them of food or toys, just only give them "free" access to healthy food and toys that are theirs and do not need supervision.

Stay strong. You have brought your family so far already. Just be strong and firm and you will bring them even farther!

Please also take your daughter to a doctor to make sure she doesn't have a bladder infection or anything. In fact I'd recommend a check up first before seeing a child psychologist.

purplejacket4

Good point. Appointment made. She's telling me she doesn't want to use the potty anymore yet just a few days ago she insisted on wearing underwear and that she was going to wear that at school.

I am as consistent with them as possible but if they are thirsty and with it being hot I have to give them a drink. DS will just repeat and repeat his want even while I'm pouring his cup. If I don't get them their drink they will get it...dd is actually good about getting stuff herself without making a huge mess. DS, not so much. I have a small bar fridge the kids drinks are in for dd.

I thought the snack food stuff was out of their reach. Guess not. I don't buy crap! Wh does. He doesn't stick to what I say either which just pisses me off.

Yesterday there was an auction. Tons of people wandering around the barn (we share the same driveway). I don't want the kids outside during the auctions and since both had been bad I said no outside time. I went for a smoke after dinner. Next thing I know wh is bringing them out...ugh!

We had the "we must be consistent" talk but he said I couldn't lock them in the house. Well shit! outside time is a privlage. Since they didn't behave they were supposed to lose that!

DS was acting up right after school ended. I am sure he hates having to share his time with mommy. Dd had constant attention at school as well with her EA. both have had to adjust to being at home.

(((Dragnheart)))

My goodness, kids can really just get on your last nerve!

It is hard to be consistent when they keep puuuuushing. Argh! I feel ya!

I think you have set up a good system for some of these problems and you just need to use it. You said you have a mini fridge for kid drinks. Well, when your DS screams for milk, send him to the kid fridge. "Your milk is in your special fridge, DS. You will have to go get it yourself." He won't do it and/or keeps screaming? Off to his room (or whatever the consequence is). They will not dehydrate if they go without their drink for an hour or two. If they're genuinely thirsty, they have their own fridge with drinks.

I found that when my kid had puuuuushed me too far that I had to say, "I'm feeling really irritated right now. I'm putting myself in timeout and will talk to you in a minute." Then gather myself, remember the kid fridge so to speak and come back and calmly respond.

Cut yourself some slack. Parenting is the hardest job in the world!

Get the junk food out of the house. Seriously, it's much easier to not have the stuff in the house.

Have you looked into their diet? I know certain dyes, etc can cause behavioral problems. What about eliminating gluten to see if that helps?

How much exercise are you kids getting? Are they getting at least an hour of running around (in an appropriate place) every day?

How long do they sleep for? Is it enough?

We usually start with trouble shooting the physical needs. Then we move on to the emotional ones.

We do have boundaries with our kids. And, actually, because I was sick and tired of dealing with the sibling crap, we didn't take our kids on vacation once.

My older two were at each other's throat all day today. Privileges were lost, but also part of it was due to tiredness.

But, here's the thing, you really can't control your kids. The best you can do is make it in their best interest to comply to your wishes. The hard part is figuring out what really motivates them.

Or natural consequences. If your DD chooses to wet herself, why is she given free run of the house?

For nightime, there are plenty of suggestions on how to keep your kids in their room if you do internet searches..

So, #1 threw a huge fit tonight. The natural consequence was he had to go to sports practice without eating dinner, since DH didn't get a chance to make it (because he was dealing with #1's tantrum).

For my oldest, it's not stuff. It's one on one time. For my middle, it is stuff. The youngest one is too little yet to make her currency known.

[This message edited by IRN2006 at 6:26 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Cut yourself some slack. Parenting is the hardest job in the world!

Thank you :). I guess it's just been more difficult because I am stressed. I shouldn't let them get to me even when I'm stressed I know.

Have you looked into their diet? I know certain dyes, etc can cause behavioral problems. What about eliminating gluten to see if that helps?

DS eats great!  I mean he is just awesome.  Anything and everything. He loves salmon.  Tonight we had spaghetti and he ate two huge bowls then a small bowl of pudding.

Dd is picky and a difficult feeder, has been since she was a baby. Never spoon fed until two.  She won't touch meats, pasta, anything warm.  She has sensory issues but as of yet we haven't gotten a feeding assessment (five years, feeding clinics and feeding doctors and not one has seen this kid eat or refuse to eat!!!). She can swallow alright.

Tonight's dinner went over horrible!  I even made sure it was cold and she only had the pasta (she said she would eat noodles) but wow what a fit. She was asked to take one small spoonful and try it. She got herself so worked up that that one spoonful got thrown up all over the place.   We went out today. One thing he loves is French fries and her home nurse said to let her eat them since at least she was eating. We got her fries and she downed them.  She hates  Pediasure. She has just begun to eat bread and since we explained that mashed potatoes are what's in her smiley fries she eats that. She eats fruits and veggies (raw) and some crackers.

They tested her for Celiacs but it was negative. I planned on going gluten free to see if it made a difference but never did. Guess I will now.

How much exercise are you kids getting? Are they getting at least an hour of running around (in an appropriate place) every day?

Both kids spend 90% of their day outside running around.  Seriously they are always so active it makes

Me wonder where dd gets the energy since she doesn't eat!

How long do they sleep for? Is it enough?

They go to bed at 7:30pm and are awake by 5:30am- 6:00am

DS can be awake long before that.  Like this morning I caught him playing upstairs in the hall at 4:30am.

We have a baby gate up at the end of the hall because we worried about the stairs (old house was all on one level).  No matter how tight we make it they end up moving it. They even figured out the lock on the downstairs door separating the hall from the living room.  We shut their door most of the way but can't shut it all the way because it has no handle and gets stuck (we can open it but the kids can't.  I realize they are only 3 & 5 so understanding not to go downstairs is a challenge.  I don't want to get their bedroom door shut so they can't open it.  Dd scares easily so a storm will wake her and she'll come wake me up.

How I can keep them upstairs is a huge frustration.  Perhaps a better lock on the downstairs door to at least stop them from getting into the living room and kitchen.  Dd Has hand soap at the sink outside the downstairs bathroom. DS dumped it... It's a safety issue with me. It wouldn't be difficult for them to get hurt if they just slipped on the stairs...

Thanks for all the support and advice :).

Oh I meant to add that dd calmed down enough to eat two strings of spaghetti. We didn't ask her to eat any more.

Also, it's not like the only thing she will eat is junk. She loves sour cream and onion pringles but that's a treat and very rare. She does take forever to eat one chip...

The thing I hate it's that she'll eat cereal for all three meals. Dry no milk. I hate this. Cereal is for breakfast. She will go through an entire box in one day!

She also is a constant eater. I was drilled by doctors not to let her graze even if it's good food (fruits, veggies etc.) but she can't seem to handle just three large meals with snacks inbetween.

RSS kids tend to be hypoglycemic but not one doctor will test for this. She will wake to eat at night if she doesn't have a snack before bed. We don't have confirmation of RSS so until we do I seem to be talking to walls when trying to explain to doctors what's happening.

Tonight I video taped her fit and how upset she got at dinner. I am showing that to her doctor!

Why can't your DD be allowed to graze, Dragnheart? Medical reason?

I used to have epic food battles with my folks when I was a kid, being forced to eat food I despised. So I vowed, as few fight over food as possible with my own kid. Our rules are, you can't say yuck if you haven't tasted it, you don't have to eat anything but you only get to eat what we serve. So, if the kid doesn't want to even try the food, that's fine, but that's it for that meal. Fruit, raw veggies, milk, yogurt, that kind of thing freely available, but you have to feed yourself and you have to clean it up (my motto is, This is not a restaurant and I am not your servant). I like your kid fridge!

Honestly, your kids sound exactly like my kids...right down to the demanding food/drink until they get it bit.

You can go ahead and have them tested, but it sounds pretty normal to me.

Kids their age have no idea really how to handle the new emotions they are learning and feeling. They may be screaming all the time, but if they dont know how to better hand whatever it is, then all they are going to know how to do, is what they have always done right? baby's scream and cry until they get food/changed/nap, ect.

Maybe look into coping techniques for kids their age, so that they have a different outlet for their energy/frustration/anger whatever.

And dont give into the demanding behavior, it will only get worse as they grow older, and by then they are pretty much learned and it will be hard to get manners as Teens.

DS must say please to get anything in the house, toys, food, drink, whatever...until he says please, i just ignore him/walk away. He knows what he needs to say to get things.

DD is 2 and even she will say "es peas"...its all about consistancy

DS is really polite. Always says please and thank you. But even the please can be repetitive.

Dd has to be reminded. And she's the older one.

DS is being demanding now. He's already had his breakfast and drink. Now he's demanding more. if he had been nice I would have given him more but hes not so, he was sent back to the sofa for a time out and told he can have more when he asks nicely. So far so good.

DS has a horrible time dealing with anger. When he gets upset he can do the normal tantrum thing, throw something (usually whatever is in reach) or just stands there silent, pouting.

One time his sister took one of his outside toys. He went off to the stone path, quiet and sat there playing with the dirt. When dd tried to get him to come play he ignored her. I went over and he wouldn't respond to me either. I got down on my knees and asked him if he was upset. He said yes and asked for a hug.

Both kids are biting eachother too.

DS has been assessed by a physio theropist because of walking late. He knee scooted. He has another checkup coming and I am getting him an appointment to see the ped because he falls a lot. I know kids trip and fall but he runs a bit odd (think Captain Jack Sparrow) and he doesn't catch himself like I would expect by putting his hands down. Maybe that's something that's learned and not instinctive???

Dd on the other hand just screams when she gets upset. Now with a speech delay she couldn't tell us what was wrong. ASL helped (one of her fav signs was grumpy/angry. She was able to communicate. But breaking her of the screaming is a challenge. Its easier to scream than work to put her words together. Speech theropy and school has helped greatly. She now can explain what's going on in her head but again it's a process. Reminding her to use her words to express herself.

Dragn,

I feel your pain, I really do. I am betting that your kiddos are not on the spectrum, and are in fact extremely bright.

I have a 16 yo who walks a very fine line with aspergers, also has ADHD. He is brillian beyond measure, and had significant speech delay. (This was caused by his brain going faster than his mouth could work). He was very much like what you are describing with both of the kids behaviors.

If he wanted something he was unrelenting, and he was smart enough to figure out how to get around things everytime. God forbid any boundary ever be broken, like with the milk fit for your? He would then elicit that same response for the next 5000 times he wanted milk. Seriously.

I think you have a combination of issues here, you are exhausted, and with them most of the time. YOU need a break. Hire a sitter for a few hours at least once a week. This gives you a chance to reset your engine. They have discovered that they are getting pretty much what they want by screaming, and fit throwing, the little guy saw it work for his sister, and thought cool, I can do that.

Raising kids, and training pets are very similar in many ways. The need hard boundaries, rules and limitations. They also thrive on a structured routine. Have you ever watched Cesar Milan the Dog Whisperer? He does and says a lot of things that make sense for kids as well.

I was militant about bedtime. I had a very strict routine that I did not vary, even on the weekends. After dinner they got to play, at 7 they got baths, and jammies, at 7:30 they got a bedtime snack, usually some cheese or yogurt, something low in sugar for sure. At 7: 45 up to their rooms, and in bed, a quick story, and at 8pm lights out for them. Quiet rooms, with white noise machines so our activity in the house didn't keep them awake. If they came out of their rooms for silly things, not real things, or came out multiple times there were punishments. They were fairly warned as well. If you come out again, then tomorrow you can't watch teletubbies. You have to provide a punishment that has impact on them, and for some kids timeout is useless.

The bad news is it will probably be even rougher for a few days as you start to implement being much stricter on whats going on, the good news is they will respond, and be happier, and easier to manage. The even better news is they will get older, and this will become less of an issue. Mine are 14&16, and they both know that 9pm is bedtime, no if's ands or buts, and it's never a fight or battle, even in the summer, now they may read half the night, but hey it's summer break. In fact about 50% of the time, I don't even have to say it's bedtime, they know, and they go.

I am in agreement about having them tested, but don't be surprised when they won't do much to help you deal with it. My son was clearly ADHD, and if he were a little guy now would have been pegged as Aspergers too, very tactile/upset in routine created horrible fits/stimulation of multiple things was too much for him.

They refused to give any meds for the ADHD until he had behavior issues at school which was the second week of KG.

((((and strength))))

OMG! Just reading this made me have anxiety! You poor thing.

There really is no one right or wrong way to parent. Aside from brutal physical or emotional punishment, you just have to find what works best for you. Looks like you have been given lots of ideas.

Hope you get a handle on it soon so you don't go completely mad.

Sending strength and peace (and thanking my Higher Power that my children are grown!)

NL