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It's hit me really hard this morning now I know he wanted her. I don't think I can live with that. I am in bits. He swears he wasn't hiding stuff from me and had forgotten. BS!He had told me bits of it before and taken them back saying he was not sure.

Turns out I can't handle the truth

unfortunately, you're trying to make sense of the mind of a cheater, and there is no sense to be found there.

My counselor told me many times that "blakesteele, you are not going to make sense out of the senseless situation that is your wife's affair."

My wife never used a condom with her AP.....she never had any sort of "sexual past" discussion with him and took him at his word that he was "fixed ". This likens back to puberty sex interactions....and something we both would advise our daughters against from doing. Unprotected sex with anyone is very risky and us devoid of "sense ". I will forever be grateful no std's were exchanged...especially ones like the HPV, which increases the chance of cancer in a woman exponentially. If this were to have happened, and 10 years from my wife got cancer because of it...well, I am grateful that is not a part of our journey at this time.

The whole " temporary logic and sense" thing regarding your husbands repulsiveness? My wife had those too . She confessed to him that she still loved me, that this was wrong, felt bad, conflicted, etc . It is my theory that this one of the ways a WS lies to themselves so that they can move forward with what they desire to do. Kind of like doing a checklist..."well, I tried.... Guess this really IS special." sort of feeling.Remember, the first lie that is told by the soon to be WS is the one they tell themselves.

Another lie is that the WS is in control . An A is the pinnacle of total lack of self control . Your husband really believed he WAS in control . My wife did too.

The whole erection thing ? I know I have lost mine while wife and I made love since her A. I was repulsed by the mind movies. BUT, I think your husband was in a very different situation. smells and sights have a strong affect on men. So this could be a half-truth from your husband. He could be partly repulsed, but the sight of a " new " woman's body combined with the smell of sexual in the air could easily be enough to start the physical process inside your husband . I find that even if I am not in the mood, I can get there pretty quickly through engaging both of these senses....throw in physical stimulation, which I suspect she did for him and I could see him getting an erection. To bad a WS cant have mind movies running in THEIR minds of us while with their AP's ....or our kids, or the town gossip channels, or anything that would keep their cocks soft or legs shut....sigh. My wife says she didn't think about me or our kids during the actual act of sex with her AP . I believe this to be true. However, It is plausible that your husband DID have a wave of morality come over him and stop . That's the kicker is it? Some of the lies we are told are plausible...that is why the same questions cycle over and over. And when a plausible lie is exposed it makes us question others more! Crazy making for sure.

Trickle truth and the fog hurt a M even more . It is suggested that each new lie restarts the clock .

Gently....I follow your posts. I see you still full of questions . I see your husband getting angry and defensive as you ask questions, causing you to stop asking questions . This pattern HAS to end if you are to heal...for him to heal too.

Might try the fish bowel method. Write your questions down, put them in a bowel . Have him draw out of the bowl and answer them. The pace and method of answering is jointly agreed to. Once a day with him responding via email. 3 times after dinner verbally answered.

It is a different input, and stands a better chance of generating different outputs.

Are you in counseling ? IC was very beneficial to me. MC was okay. I would recommend you both do IC first....save your time and money for MC until you are both ready to be radically honest with each other. He has to be in a position to tell the truth , and so do you . This is where we messed up . My wife's A went physical after DD and while in weekly counseling....wife apparently doing all the right things in front of the therapist and her circle of friends because no one had a clue her A went underground.

Keep posting. Very typical for a fWS to not like SI.... Actually , don't think fWS like us visiting with anyone about our trauma (my experience anyway. To heal from this trauma a. "Community" is needed. Not just blakesteele's thought , it is suggested by PhDs, therapists, and Pastors. I have 1 real life good friend and a pastor I visit with . Our immediate family also know of our struggles, though they are not part of my regular support network .

I pray you have a real life network to help you . SI is very beneficial but not a replacement for real life connections.

Some day that connection will be as God intended it to be ....with a spouse . He realizes the strain adultery is on a M....on all involved with it.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 5:59 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

(((Olwen)))

Adultery is a deal breaker for some. Maybe it is for you....I am betting your husband thinks it is thus his continual lying and trickle truthing.

Gently....you just got some more of the truth. Is it the truth what is driving you to consider D? Or is it that your gut has been right all along but you tried to believe your spouse in spite of your gut ?

I don't presume to know you . I pose this question because I chose to believe my wife over my gut.....my gut was screaming at me while my wife's affair was secret , then it was uneasy right after DD.....as my wife went physical with her AP.

I felt really bad about my ignorance and ability to get sucked into the mire that was my wife's world during her affair. I am using that feeling to cater to my gut...ask questions when I need to, not feel guilt as I verify what my wife is saying, bring open about what I need , etc.

You might consult a D attorney. It will help you. Doesn't mean you hire one , just let you see you really have options here .

If adultery is a deal breaker for you than it is. Just feel out where the real pain is coming from. It appears to me a greater chance of a marriage failure from adultery is NOT the A itself, it is the actions of the WS post - A that end the M. Some WS simply are not capable of making am ends for the damage and actually choose to do more damage. This realization of how deeply a spouse can intentionally damage you is so very different then the unintentional damage a WS does to the bd while the affair is secret.

Peace to us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:01 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

You are stronger then you think.

Choosing D is not a sign of weakness. Choosing an A is. Both kill a M....but that is where the similarities stop.

My wife's AP is onto another woman..,.. Not divorcing, he is still a husband and dad of 5....he is choosing the weak way and his wife, by NOT doing what you AREA doing, is also making weak choices. This is not judging, this is a fact.

R or D take strength.... Sin is easy and occur only during moments of weakness.

D after adultery is not weak. God himself understands the sin of adultery. So please don't for one minute view yourself as weak if you discover that the truth is adultery is a deal breaker for you. I just request you do what you expect your husband to do..... Determine and express the truth behind your actions.

Praying a specific prayer for you both now.

Peace .

[This message edited by blakesteele at 5:44 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Im sorry,honey. I think he is still lying to you. He is TTing you. He has given you little bit more of the story...there is more to tell.

He managed to get an erection. He kissed her. He went for that ride and he touched her. He got in that back seat because he wanted to have sex. Really? After 3 strokes he suddenly comes out of his fog? Not before he put it in her?

No.

Im sorry.

I just don't know what I want or what to believe.

She did tell me herself that she uses men for what she can get out of them but she hates sex with men and just lays there cos she is gay. That she just goes through the motions to keep them hooked on her. She told me she knew it was wrong but she loved the attention men give her. She was really screwed up and I couldn't get her out of the house.

WH says she was like a blow up doll. Never touched him and just moaned and groaned as he touched her. He says it sounded so fake he realised she didn't want to do it and was playing games with him.He actually told me he wanted her to shut up cos he had shut down and was trying to do what she wanted but her making a noise reminded him it was her he was touching and he felt like crap. He was only able to do it cos it was dark and she could have been anyone. yes he wanted to at first but as he touched her it felt horrible and he just wanted it over with, he says he didn't want sex cos he knew there was nothing between them and he hadn't liked anything they had done. He says he just did it to keep her quiet. He claims she never touched him once and was playing games with him. Pressuring him to go further than he wanted.

My head is so mixed up, what is lies, what is truth. How can I move forward with a liar. How can I move forward with someone I can't trust. Someone that wanted someone else.

He still tells me he is not certain about his feelings cos he can't remember. That he shut down and didn't even look at her when he touched her. That he only got in the back seat cos he realised he had ruined our marriage so he may as well do what she wanted cos he didn't want to end their EA but he had changed his mind about PA cos she just sat there and he felt she was not into it and just playing games.

She was playing mind games the whole day when she came to our house. we practically had to kick her out and she was near to tears.

I can't make sense of it all.

But I can't believe a word he tells me can i.

[This message edited by olwen at 6:27 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

He says he thought he could go through with the actual sex and keep her happy so she wouldn't tell me but when he actually entered her it felt wrong and he realised what he was doing.

He says he started waking up when he touched her but what they were doing was so awkward and surreal it was like he wasn't really doing it but when he entered her he wanted to pull away straight away and only went two more times so she wouldn't get angry and feel rejected.

I don't know what's real and what's not.

All I know is he has hurt me so badly I don't even know if I can function anymore. right now I don't want him anywhere near me or even look at his lying face.

She even showed me photos on facebook of her ex girlfriend and her hugging and looking much closer than friends.

She lives with one guy, an ex, another cooks for her - from her previous job in a pub. She goes in and gets her meals free. Another she calls the stalker and another she calls the millionaire. She was supposedly out with him the night she picked WH up. I don't believe it. I think she has these men dangling but said she was out with the millionaire to make WH think he was special cos she left the date to be with him I don't think she had a date that night at all. WH says her phone never stops beeping with texts at work so he believes her other men are real. Guess it made her more appealing.

I know he hates sex if I am not into it so why wouldn't he hate it with her if she was clearly just doing it to manipulate him?

Olwen,

He's feeding you a bunch of crap that I can't believe he expects you to believe.

But in any case it doesn't matter.

He did it. He. Did. It.

Period Paragraph.

xo

do you mind if I ask why you don't believe him? It seems such a detailed story to me and adds up cos he realised what he was doing but didn't want to upset her or look less of a man by not taking what she offered. Surely other men have thought they wanted someone only to find when it came to sex it wasn't what they had hoped for and then just go through the motions so as not to cause offence?

Blake steele, thanks for your advice and support. I don't want to D. My son has been through enough this year.

I wish I could decide to R but I don't think I have it in me. I think we will go for the middle ground and stay in the same house to support each other and our son through my illness and sharing parenting. It won't be a permanent arrangement but right now it's all we can think to do. We can keep things calm around DS. I have become somewhat adept at hiding things from him after all the months of TT. I think we can be friends again one day but I will never trust him with my heart again. It hurts too much. Especially if I still don't have all the truth.

Problem is I can imagine him having second thoughts and not liking touching a woman who is clearly faking her enjoyment and didn't want to touch him. It would not have lived up to his fantasy so why wouldn't it have woken him up and made him stop?

I can't imagine the two of them going at it like rabbits with smiles on their faces. She was using him and he was using her from what I can tell.

But I am looking at this as the husband I thought I knew and I don't know him do I. He kissed her happily twice in broad daylight and sober. He got a buzz out of being invited to put his hand down her top to retrieve his lighter. He knew he was cheating on me but just ignored his conscience cos someone new and exciting was interested in him.

So how the hell can isay I don't think he is lying about the car? All I can say is it seems plausible he wanted her til he got her then he woke up and didn't have the balls to stop it so he went ahead with it but didn't enjoy it. I bet he would have if she was more into him though. He says he would have gone back for more if it had been good but he never has. He says it was more an awkward fumble than a ONS nd it was the awkwardness that brought him out of his fog.

How the hell do you know when you have the truth and how the hell do you process it.

I am ready to just give up cos everyones so sure he is still lying but I can't get anymore out of him

The fact is your husband committed adultery....you either commit it or you don't. Adultery is never worth it....but it has to feel exponentially worse for those who commit it and can't even say the sex was good. My wife enjoyed the sex....suspect she was actually the aggressor, but it takes two to make it happen. They used each other and got exactly what they wanted. All WS do. The level of. "Enjoyment" is inconsequential. If sex, relationship was bad...why did it not stop (your experience ) ? If it was satisfying....why not D (my experience )? Either way the damage is the same ....nothing is unique abut adultery .

Gently....is it possible you yourself want to believe your husband is somehow " different. " then other WS? He very much wants you to believe this and is one of the drivers behind his anger surrounding your involvement with SI.

I think many WS's want to believe they are different then others who choose adultery. It is hard for THEM to accept their reality, and they were present every moment of it, had 100% of the input in each and every decision. It's no wonder BS's struggle with the reality of the situation...we have partial truths at best !

Will he be open to IC?

[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:18 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Hi Olwen, I have read your posts and I have to say the detail is very plausible. Maybe we believe him because we want to. Also, if he is coating the truth he is doing it because he doesn't want to hurt you (more).

I know we would prefer the warts and all version but I don't think he can give you more detail than he has.

Maybe trusting is being Ok with the unknown and as we know, if we imagine the unknown its always worse.

So worst case scenario, he fancied her, was flattered by her, she was available and they had sex in the car. He did it, fact, but he's also sorry.

Can you forgive him for the worst case and accept that he may be trying to make it sound unappealing to protect you?

Blakesteele -Oh God yes!!!

He was never the type until a couple of years ago when he was 38 and dreading turning 40. An ex messaged him on facebook and he told her he wished he could be with her. He says he was fishing for compliments hoping she would say the same back then he planned to say I wish I could but I am married and walk away with an ego boost.

He told me it was the same this time. He was flattered by the attention but couldn't believe she was into him so he had to find out for sure to get that ego boost. He planned on kissing her to find out if she liked him cos she acted like she did but told him they were just friends. then he was going to stop it like last time. Of course she was playing her own games and didn't kiss him back so he thought they were just friends. He didn't want to lose the attention so he was pleased when she offered him a lift home as it meant they would still be close friends. He thought he had blown it by kissing her so he sent more texts than usual. He told her he was going to have to leave me cos of what they had done in the hopes of frightening her off physical stuff and back to 'just friends' but it backfired and she took it to mean he really was leaving me. He says in the car he just wanted to come home but because of all they had done leading up to it he felt he couldn't say no without upsetting her and if he upset her she would tell me. He said he wanted nothing physical after the kiss but he was curious how she would feel when she lifted her skirt and also flattered by her offer so he decided to give her what she wanted to keep her quiet. He said once he touched her it was horrible but he couldn't pull away so he shut down and started looking round the car and not think about what he was doing. same thing in the back seat, trying to give her what she wanted but not being able to. He said he just did it to keep her quiet but couldn't actually manage it properly. Then when he stopped they didn't speak. He was furious for being pressured and for going along with it and wanted nothing more to do with her but he had to stay civil so she didn't get angry and tell me. That's why the texting continued but no more physical stuff for the next 3 weeks. eventually he could take no more and brought her here as a friend hoping meeting me would make her end it. I worked.

That's his original story and you can see why I would want to believe it and why he sticks to it. He still says it's the truth but his actions show a different story so he has agreed with what I think happened. He says it seems likely but he can't remember more than he has told me. He says he was willing to do what she wanted but not wanting it himself. He just wanted the EA.

Even this morning he is saying he didn't want her or fancy her he can't remember anything other than his original story so he has gone along with my version of events

My head is mashed. I wish his story was true It fits with the insecure H I knew and loved. He was weak but not into her and not wanting to hurt me That it escalated so fast and got out of his control so he didn't know what to do.

I wish that story was true and half of me tells me it really is true but the doubts won't go away.

I am expecting him to take back what he said yesterday and say again he was just telling me what I believe to be true.

[This message edited by olwen at 7:34 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Katie G - I don't know. APrt of me still believes his original story. It sounds plausible to me as the H I knew. But I keep having these doubts. Everyone I know in real life says his original story makes sense but everyone on here is so sure he is lying. THen I confront him and he says what he thinks I want to hear. I don't know which version is true.

I can't cope with not knowing. Where did my old husband go, I need him so badly right now.

He seems so desperate to say whatever I want so long as he gets to keep me.

Today I am struggling to swallow what he told me yesterday. He kept saying I suppose so to all I said. Then he tried to take it back saying he has told me what he remembers, that he can't believe he wanted her and he just got swept along in a series of bad decisions. Played with fire and got burnt. He always said he never wanted it to go past the kiss and that it was cos he wanted her to want him but he didn't want her. He planned to end it after the kiss but cos she didn't kiss him back he assumed all was fine and they could go back to EA - not that that's much better.

MY head is spinning and I want to give up.

[This message edited by olwen at 7:40 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Olwen, you're in a downward, negative spiral right now.

If you step back and see the situation as it is, today, now - he wants to stay with you. Are you asking him to tell you something that would cause you to walk away? Or are you asking him for more reassurance so you stay?

What do you need to get yourself out of the negativity? If you think its the truth, I'm not sure you will ever get it - because whatever he says you will not quite believe it.

I just want him to be honest with me. I feel I can't move forward until I know how deep the feelings were. I need to know what I am trying to forgive.

I feel cheated if I accept it and move on based on what he has told me but all the while but he knows he has told me an edited version.

Does that make sense? I f he tells me it was purely attention and went the way he said originally then I can try and live with it but if it turns out he is lying then I have been tricked into R.

If he really did want her, fancy her and want to have sex with her I can't live with it. If it was a mistake that got out of hand I think I could work towards forgiveness, as I have been doing, but it's like a devil on my shoulder saying are you sure you have the truth?

Then everyone on here is so sure he is lying it confirms it to me. I confront him and say if I don't get the truth we are done and he tells me whatever I want to hear. Even though I don't want it to be true.

Pretty mixed up. I guess I don't want to R with a man who wanted her but if it was an EA that got out of hand I could cope in time. I would feel such a fool trying to R based on a lie.

Yes, and how would you ever know? I guess we all need to work out what we want - yes truth, honesty, no cheating, but that's all stuff from other people.

What do we want ourselves? Do you want to be with him or not? I think I get to the stage where if I love him there can be no conditions, because they backfire. "I love you as long as you don't cheat" - it doesn't work.

I never thought he would cheat and he did, and I still love him and want to be with him. But I have to go through the agony of knowing I have been and could be lied to.

Not saying I have the answers, I'm going through it myself. I really feel for you at the moment.

eventually he could take no more and brought her here as a friend hoping meeting me would make her end it. I worked.

This is unhealthy...he is looking to YOU to solve HIS problems. What you successfully did is what all BS do...they demanded that the symptoms of a persons "incompleteness", "brokenness", "immaturity" (what ever word you choose to describe that which makes Adultery a valid option) stop immediately.

It does NOTHING to change a WS's pattern, habits, coping skills that led them to the actual act of Adultery. The only real change a person can administer is change within themselves.

Until a WS accepts that, they will remain a WS and never grow to becoming a fWS. By your posts it appears your husband very much wants you to solve his problem, to "fix" him again. He is doing this via his anger and defensiveness...both when you ask questions and when you post on SI. He is not choosing to protect you, he is not choosing to do the work he needs to do to move into R. By your hard questions and lack of willingness to rugsweep you are telling him the old comfort level of your relationship with him simply does not work anymore. I suspect you didn't always express your desires of your husband from him pre-A...thinking they were not "that big of a deal". My wife and I's marriage is full of small examples of this....on both sides. The difference is adultery was a choice she made. This is what is meant when it is written that adultery is not about the BS...they were a part of the same marriage that the WS was...and did not choose to cheat.

I get that it is hard....we are most likely talking about coping mechanisms that date back to his formative years.

was like he wasn't really doing it but when he entered her he wanted to pull away straight away and only went two more times so she wouldn't get angry and feel rejected.

This is the truth all BS must face....the truth is they put their AP feelings above our feelings. While it is a noble thing of your husband to spin the truth this way, he TOO was getting something from that relationship. She is not a "boil the bunny" type of person....I can say that because of her apparent multiple partners. She is not a dreamer who believes in soul mates...she appears to have a different man for each of her emotional and physical needs.

And this is the person your husband choose to committ adultery. My wife choose a father of 5. This again, is another moot point. If my wife slept with our Pastor would it be any less of a sin? If your husband slept with a single Mom who had adopted 3 African children and volunteered at soup kitchens every weekend...would it be a "lesser" form of adultery?

A tepidly warm remorseful WS does not possess enough recognition or ownership to go about the growth and work needed to change themselves. It is a throw-back to the way they operated throughout their life time...pre-M even. Call it conflict avoidance, activity based living, people pleasing...it all speaks to a pattern that makes adultery an option. It blocks real human connections from happening.

To be sure it takes two humans to form a connection. What I am witnessing on this site and within my own situation is BS hunger for the truth...when it is not fed by the WS we search it out on our own.

Since it is a vane attempt to see the truth of our spouses affair, we turn our attention slowly to the truth we CAN discern....the truth within ourselves.

This is where my journey has taken me...to see what is the truth about blakesteele. Some of this truth is VERY ugly. I have had difficulty owning that it is the truth....but my desire for the truth is so strong I process into them relentlessly.

I am not professing that BS are saints....we are as incomplete, immature, broken as our WS. What differintiates us from a WS is that we have been betrayed. We know what it feels like. We know how destructive this is. WS simply can't comprehend this....phd's, therapist, books...all speak to this being a fact. Coming out of adultery is painful for WS's, but it is traumatic for BS.

It is from this trauma that our perspective on the truth, the need for the truth, is so very different than a WS.

We comprehend how destructive lies are. So when we find truths about ourselves we attack them with a vengence...knowing full good and well that if we don't we can hurt OURSELVES in a similar fashion. We also stand the risk of hurting others if we don't face them.

Given a choice between hurting your spouse and hurting anyone else...a healthy person chooses to hurt everyone else over their spouse. WS failed to do that.

And that truth hurts like a MF'er.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:56 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

"Honey, I am feeling disconnected from you. I would like to work on that. Would you be willing to go to counseling with me so that we can strengthen our marital bond?"

How would that sentence have sat with you INSTEAD of your husband bringing his AP to you so that the "shock" of reality could cause HER to break it off with HIM?

I would give away all the money and material items we have to have heard...and really HEARD....that sentence come from my wifes mouth 18 months ago.

Acceptance is giving up all hope of a better past. I have accepted our past.

I pray you find acceptance Olwen...you are courageous.

God is with you.