SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It sounds like his AP was very manipulative.

I, too, wanted to believe my wifes AP was some sort of "predator"...but he was not. I think very few are with regards to adultery.

Even IF she were the aggressor and a predator I doubt she would have any strong emotional attachment to him...giving his follow-up reason of "he didnt' want to hurt her feelings" even less weight.

If she could have multiple affairs at one time...one with an ex, one with a cook, some with scattered women....how emotionally available and invested could she be?

How much of a "risk" was she?

There were, like all other affairs, plenty of opportunities to ward off even the most skilled predators attacks. I can see several in my wifes journey into adultery. Her actions speak very clearly to the intent behind them....and she got what she desired at the time. So did your husband.

Remorse is a must. It was severly lacking in ALL WS during their A, thus adultery as an option. And some never experience remorse...my wifes AP is onto another woman. No remorse = no change.

In order to change "something", the person that owns that "something" must recognize it as wrong and in need of change. That is the first step.

It appears your husband is content to feel as if he was playful and innocent and simply got taken advantage of...to be the "victim".

Being a victim is a choice. Being victimized is reality. I have been vicitimized by my wifes adultery...I did not choose this pain, but it was administered to me. I am choosing to use this pain and grow past it, thus avoiding the choice of being a victim.

I hate the victim mentality MORE then I hate the pain my wife has invited into our marriage.

Change occures when the pain of same is greater then the pain of change.

Make sense?

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:16 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

It matters because you need and deserve the truth. If he is still lying to you,then what kind of foundation is that for R? You can not R successfully until he comes clean and tells you the truth.

You have every right to push for the truth. You are worthy of honesty. yes...even if that truth makes you more sad..even if it makes you want to walk away...until you have the truth you can not heal.

As far as forgiving..until you know the truth,you can't forgive him for anything. And forgiveness is not a requirement of R. At all.

[This message edited by confused615 at 9:19 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Confused615 speaks the truth.

I envy those on here that can so quickly and completely cut to the chase.

I am working on this within me...seems to be a lower priority then other things though.

blakesteele...it took my WH over 2 years to "get it." I have a very low tolerance for crap. Sometimes I think I might sound harsh...but it's never my intention. I just don't want to see anyone being manipulated and gaslighted. I know very well the toll these lies take on one's sanity.

Not that Im crazy( not today)...

He has been texting me all day and says we need to sit down and talk when he gets home.

The AP was very manipulative. With me too. He says he knew all along that she had a weird streak and he never trusted it but it also didn't stop him doing what he did. But it did make him worry she would tell me. He said it was a strong feeling he had. She would even follow him home from work! After they had sex she made him fill her car for her before bringing him home then she sped off in a temper. She certainly didn't care about him at all, it was all show. get in with the boss and have an easy ride at work. He told me this later that she had him doing her work for her. He stupidly told her all our problems and she went for it. As did he. There was definitely no caring from either of them they just used each other. He actually asked her why she didn't back off after the kisses. She said she picked him up that night cos she was bored - nice eh! She told him she was only 5 mins round the corner but in actual fact it was a good half hour before she turned up. HE thought they were going to talk things out but she refused and lifted her skirt. She was soooo playing games with him as much as he was with her.

He has just texted me that he did want the EA but definitely not the PA. Here we go again.

It's going to reach a point where I believe him again because I want to. And his story fits with the man I know.

He flirts like crazy but if someone takes him up on it he is like a deer in the headlights and panics. He wanted the ego boost but not what came after. He knows he was playing with fire and got burnt but he is back to swearing he didn't want her physically.

He was scared if he didn't do what she wanted she would tell me so he did what she wanted so she wouldn't tell me.

Arggghh! My head is getting even more messed up.

He never cared about her feelings. The constant texting and clinginess annoyed part of him but the other part was enjoying the attention. As soon as I found out they dropped each other immediately. But during the affair he never said no to her and meant it. He didn't want to give up his ego booster.

He is remorseful I am sure of it. He got her moved to another office so he doesn't have to see her, he told his boss of the affair, he told his family after the affair. He even told our son he had hurt mummy very very badly by spending too much time with another lady - he had to be told something cos WH told me he was leaving before he confessed.

he has replaced everything in the house she touched. He has his bike for sale to pay for IC for himself. I am already in it. HE leaves me notes every morning. He holds me every night. He can't stop touching me and saying what a fool he is, how could he have risked his family. He has given himself boundaries with other women. He came home one night and told me our neighbour (attractive single woman) was stood at the bus stop drenched in the rain and he didn't stop because he knew I would not like a woman in his car. I have access to all his email, phone etc and he has even suggested I tag him, he would gladly do it. I mentioned a VAR and he said DO IT put it anywhere I want to prove you can trust me. He lets me know where he is at all times. If he is working late he emails me so I know he is still there. He took me away for a weekend so we could reconnect and talk. HE does loads around the house now. He feels guilty cos that was the sort of stuff he moaned to her about. he says he has grown up and realised what he had all along and would never put me through this again. He has always chased the ego boost but now he has seen where it got him it's the last thing he wants. He says me and ds are all the ego boost he needs and he is the richest man in the world, he just stopped seeing it when he met her.

He says he will do anything to keep me. He barely even watches telly anymore, he sits and talks to me instead. I wake up every weekend after he leaves me sleep in to a clean house.

One day he was out on his bike and a drunk teenage girl flashed him. He told me as soon as he got home even though I would never have found out.

He really does seem to have changes in so many ways. He rarely gets angry now. Only when I keep telling him I don't believe him. Even then it's more frustration.

he says he wants to spend his life making it up to me.

I am scared what I am going to hear when he gets home. I suspect it will be somewhere between the original story and what he said yesterday. Surely if he was lying he wouldn't have given me so much detail. It does make sense to me half the time and the rest it doesn't.

Olwen...it doesn't matter what the OW wanted from him. It shouldn't have mattered to him "what she was playing at." It shouldn't have mattered to him if she was serious or "just flirting" with him. It doesn't matter who OW is,her background,etc. The OW could have spread herself out on the bed naked..and it shouldn't have mattered.

He was in control the whole time. He was not helpless. He was not incapacitated. he played that game WITH her. He was not played BY her.

Nothing you did or did not do made him cheat on you...

...and nothing she did or did not do made him cheat with her.

This is all on him.

I fear you are concentrating too much on OW and her actions and what she really wanted from him.

It doesn't matter. What matters is that he chose to betray you. He decided it was ok..and he did it. Is he doing any work on himself to figure out why he allowed this to happen?

I think you're in for more TT.

Have you asked him to take a polygraph as a requirement of R?

Quick question - why does no one believe it's possible he woke up in the car and hated what he was doing. That part makes sense to me. HE didn't want to lose his EA and didn't want her to tell me. She had already shown him she was not right in the head by making him wait for her to pick him up even though he text her not to he would get a taxi. She brushed him off and said i'm only round the corner I will give you a lift home, she always brushed off his weak attempts to stop things. Then she drove him round for nearly an hour. He says they barely spoke and it was like being in a movie, he had no idea what was going to happen next and it was surreal. She gave one word answers to anything he said. He asked why she wasn't taking him home and she said she wanted to park up and talk.He was scared to push her cos he didn't know what she was playing at. Then when she pulled up he realised what she had in mind and panicked.

why is it so unlikely he felt trapped and did what he thought he had to to get out of there without her going off on one and telling me. she had already shown him her darker side by throwing tantrums whenever he disagreed with her at work. She would storm out in a huff. But he didn't want to lose the EA.

I never believed he kissed her to find out her feelings for him. He denied that cos he didn't want me to know he had wanted to kiss her. I also never believed he didn't get a thrill out of putting his hand down her top. I never believed he really tried to stop it. I think in his head as long as it didn't go past those 2 kisses he wasn't really having an affair. He really told himself that. He even told himself she was there and made him feel better and he thought they weren't really doing anything wrong til it turned physical and it might make him a happier persona nd a better husband. They tell themselves crazy things at the time. He is horrified now how he thought during the EA and PA.

But I think I do believe that when it came to the crunch he was curious but not actively wanting to do it. He says he realised the situation he was in and felt he had to go through with it. I can see that as the truth cos he found himself in a position he never believed he would be in and he panicked. He says he shut down once he touched her, couldn't believe what he was doing and couldn't think of a way out without making her angry.

I can believe that part so I am kind of stuck cos no one here thinks it can be true.

I am scared what he is going to say when he gets home.

If he says he didn't want her physically I know I will crumble cos it's what I want to believe.

I do tend to try and blame her and myself but he won't let me.

He is very clear it's all on him. His bad choices every single day. He is adamant it wasn't her, or me but him.

he even said what you said. He should be ale to be locked in a room of naked women and not do a thing. he doesn't know why he wasn't able to say no to her or to anyone for that matter, he can be just sitting down to his dinner and if someone knocks at the door or rings needing help he will leave it and rush off. He never says no to anybody.

H doesn't know why his morals flew out of the window and is disgusted by himself. That's why he is trying to find money for IC. He promises nothing will ever happen again but he wants to make sure he knows why he did it so it never happens again.

He says he knew what he was doing was wrong but he squashed his conscience down and separated his life. Me at home and her at work. Until it went physical he told himself it wasn't that bad. He had never heard of 'just good friends' or an EA but he did know it was wrong cos he had to hide it from me. After it went physical he was a state, lost 2 stone and cried all the time.

He is so sorry and working hard. I am scared to death more tt is coming but I think it's actually going to be back tracking.

He keeps saying 'I had an affair, nothing else matters, I destroyed you and my family and I don't deserve you' he won't let me try and justify what he has done. Even when he says he felt trapped in the car he will add 'but I still made that choice, I was pathetic enough to take what she offered'I try to rationalise what he did but he says the details don't matter, he cheated, he deceived us, he forgot us.

He wants me to accept he had an affair no matter if he wanted to or not, but I just can't. I have to believe he didn't really want it or I won't be able to cope. He says it doesn't matter what he wanted the important things are the choices he made and how those choices hurt me. I just need to know how MUCH he wanted her, is it at a level I can accept or could he just not resist her.

I am babbling and running in circles here - sorry.

[This message edited by olwen at 10:32 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Olwen...does it make any sense that he wanted out..wanted away from her..wanted the flirtation to stop..that they had "only" kissed a few times..but he had sex with her to keep her quiet? If she was going to tell you about the flirting and the kisses, wouldn't she have more power over him if he had sex with her? Of course. That is only one of many reasons that his story doesn't make sense.

He didn't stop at flirting..or kissing..or touching her vagina...why stop once he is inside her?

He felt trapped. Open the car door..and walk away.

I think of it like this...If Im cooking, and have a small grease fire in the kitchen..do I then burn down the whole house because there was a little damage to the kitchen? No. It makes no sense.

What does make sense...he is scared of facing the consequences of you finding out he was able to finish. He knows it means a longer healing time and that it means his BW will be devastated all over again. He knows he will have to listen to how much pain he has caused. He has every reason,in his wayward mind, to not tell you the truth.

The thing is..it's not the lying or the TT that will destroy the marriage..it's the lies.

He has denied a lot..saying he didn't want you to know because it would hurt you,or whatever his reasons were. It makes sense that he is lying about this too.

ETA:

"I have to believe he didn't really want it or I won't be able to cope."

And this is why you are trying to convince yourself that his swiss cheese story is the truth. Because you want to believe he stopped..you want to believe he didn't want her. Of course you do,honey! Reality is so much more painful. At first. But once you have the truth, true healing can start.

Don't be afraid of the truth. Run to it. Embrace it.

[This message edited by confused615 at 10:42 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Thing is it does kind of make sense to me. He has already explained only part of him wanted the EA to stop, his conscience, but in reality he wanted it. He never REALLY tried to stop it. he really did want their EA and he has been honest about that even though he sees it hurts me badly. He has never excused that has always said he was doing it for the attention.

Now if you think about it, he is having a text affair. She makes it clear she is upping the ante with lighter down her top and he goes along cos he wants to. Then after kissing her and getting no response and not liking it he thought phew that was a narrow escape, there is nothing between us and I can get back to my happy little 'harmless' EA. Screwed up but he thought things were going to stop then and he was relieved rather than disappointed cos after kissing her he felt guilty as hell for cheating on me but he still didn't want to give up the EA. He saw it as relatively harmless compared to kissing.

Now when she gets him in the car park he starts thinking shit we have done xyz and I have led her to believe this is what I want. She is going to be really pissed if I don't and then she might be angry enough to spill the beans. So he does it to keep her quiet.

Only then does he realise he has killed his marriage and she now has more ammo. He says he knows its screwed up thinking but aren't all A's screwed up thinking? He says he doesn't know why he didn't just open the car door other than he was scared of what she might do. He was not thinking clearly and he looks back now with disgust. He can see all the times he should have stopped it but, as he puts it, he was too chicken shit' to say no to her in case he lost his little admirer.

He swears he didn't realise he was making things worse. He didn't do much thinking just panicked and shut down. He has admitted she was attractive enough to make it ok but he was more willing to do what his screwed up brain thought he had to, than wanting to touch her and have sex. He swears he was never turned on by her. He wanted the attention and didn't care about anything else.

He keeps saying there is a huge difference between wanting and being willing to do something you have basically invited. And yeah he didn't want to lose face, offend her, thought he could keep her quiet and I need never know etc etc that's how he gave himself permission to do it but mainly he was scared to say no cos she was clearly playing the same game with him as he was playing with her.

I am not saying he is an innocent. He played the game. He wanted that Ea. He made his choices every step of the way - but they weren't made from a clear mind. He wanted to kiss her. He wanted to keep the EA going. He chose to touch her rather than say no - I really think he took the easy way out thinking I would never know. But I do believe he wouldn't have wanted to do it off his own back. He has admitted that when he could see no way out (not thinking clearly and 3pints of strong cider) he had a moments curiosity what she would feel like but hated the feel of her cos it hit him what he was doing so he shut down.

It sounds likely to me. He has never been a man's man. He was polite with women but never crossed boundaries until his ex cropped up. He has always been more family orientated than other men. Not one of the lads at all. He has only had a handful of partners before me and had low self esteem. But he is not a man to sleep around. He always had very strong morals. Yes he flirted but always in a safe way - checkout girls and people on the phone. But if any showed any interest back he would avoid them. I truly believe the situation led him to make the choice rather than flat out desire.

I am just waiting for hi to get home now so we can discuss things.

Just looking at the how could you thread and someone said surely it would feel wrong, nasty to touch someone else after being married for years. That's what WH IS saying. He made the choice to do what she wanted but it DID feel wrong and nasty. That's why he stopped and it was never repeated. Surely that's possible, even likely. It seems to me it is.

If he is telling me the truth he did stop touching her very quickly. as soon as he felt she would not be insulted. He sat there and worked out it was over in about 20 seconds. He thought the actual sex was the final straw and he didn't want to cross the line but again cos of what he had done already he felt he had already hurt as much as possible so he may as well try and keep her in his life.

You say it makes no sense he would have sex if he was worried about her telling me because it would give her even more ammunition.

He was not thinking clearly, isn't that the hallmark of an affair after all? He thought if he gave her what she wanted she would be happy and keep her mouth shut cos she had got her own way.

He says she was like a spoiled brat. Would tantrum anytime someone crossed her at work. So he was trying to keep her quiet.

I am not saying you're wrong, when he gets home I may find you're very right but I do also think it's possible what he said about the car is true.

He said he has only been with me for 18years and when it came to it he hated it and stopped each act very quickly. Just enough so she would be pacified that she got her own way.

I don't think people think logically during an affair so surely it's possible he is telling the truth about the car part? he has admitted he wanted the rest and was even curious how she would feel in the car but why does that HAVE to mean he liked it and finished?

[This message edited by olwen at 11:43 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

Olwen....at the end of your day, you and you alone have to decide what you feel.

I discovered my wife's affair when it was "just an EA". It went PA after my DD and while we were in IC and MC. I can tell you an EA is very painful.... I lived it .

So take the PA out if the equation ....it sounds like your husbsnd would still be in an EA with this woman had she been willing to stop there. Would THAT be acceptable to you?

If it were really acceptable to your husband ....what is all the talk about "kissing her to test" her intention? Sounds like she didn't kiss back at first.... So who is the aggressor?

I am concerned about your desire to defend your husbands. He committed adultery. There is no sugar coating it. Your trust of him has been broken. Marital vows are like virginity....you can only break them once....all other discussion will not change what he gave away.

My wife's EA was infidelity....short and sweet. There was intentionality to her actions that led her to full on adultery. Your husband is not unlike her journey. Can't spin it to make it not the truth. All fWS have a wake up call....sounds like a moment in the back of her car was kinda one , as was her meeting you?

A WS never has that significant moment. My wife's AP is onto another woman.....he had no "car moment" or "meeting wife" moment.

I will pray you find the strength to resist influence during what I suspect will be another tt 'ing session today.

I remember when I did not resist my wife's TT'ing....I allowed more harm to come to me. I chose poorly.

I pray you don't repeat my poor choices.

Really sit and think about why an EA is somehow more acceptable? How does that motivate you to R more then if he had enjoyed fucking her ?

This whole "plausibility" reasoning works well in logical situations....that is how good decisions are made.

Affairs take place when logic is missing.

Both your mind and his influence are using logic to deter you from the truth....and subsequent pain associated with it.

My wife was not abused, dropped our girls off at school, and met up with her AP to have an A. LOGICALLY it makes zero sense.

Even if I were an abusive alcoholic...adultery is not a logical solution to that problem. D is, calling police is, interventions are.

If I were a drunk, it makes no sense for me to drive....it is illogical to think I can drive responsibly. But if I choose to drive and kill someone ....the consequences are very real.

I think what you are going through is very normal. I sought to put logic to this, believe it to be an abbé ration and NOT a part of my wife . I processed through that stage when u accepted that her A is a part if her now, but it is just a symptom of a much deeper issue. The fact that your husband seeks EA's with others moves his AP into the "symptom" category....now the real work of seeing what the root causes are.

His flirtatious attitude....has he said anything about that?

I use to hug our friends as I great them. I don't do that anymore. Our marriage was devoid of boundaries....we have both seen the value if boundaries and it is helping us grow. They don't restrict healthy growth , they reduce the ability of unhealthy growth to take root .

I detect considerable "yeah, but" responses from you....not sure if our posts are helping or hurting....

God be with us all.

No more tt, back to the old story. His says it's the truth and he can't tell it any other way.

The only thing that has changed is he thought the EA, lighter down the top and kissing were 'a bit of fun' nice eh! He didn't see the harm, well he did but he chose to ignore it.

No I am not ok with the EA but as it only lasted 3 weeks I can kind of understand how someone can get caught up n a new friendship and heave it turn into an EA without really realising you have gone too far.

My problem is he saw the early physical contact as 'fun' how sick is that. He was still wrapped up in her emotionally even after kissing her.

He says he never saw the light til they were in the car.

I don't know if I can forgive. Right now I hate him.

I know I defend him cos part of me still loves him but that part is slowly dying as I think of every betrayal. He had me and I wasn't enough.

I really wish he would go back to her so I could watch her hurt him as much as he has hurt me. Right now - I don't want her sloppy seconds.

His declarations of love mean nothing cos he didn't love me when it mattered.

I don't know if I can get through this. I don't even know if I have the truth. I know nothing except I have been ripped apart by the one person I thought adored me. How stupid was I.

I can still see the car as being a step too far for him and believe he didn't want or enjoy it but that's irrelevant really.

The EA alone would be hell to get through but what hurts most is he saw it as a bit of fun. Not much fun for me.

If he can do that without thinking of me how the hell can he now say he loves me.

I realise I am being 'yeah but' it's cos I don't quite get what I am being told.

I will ask straight questions.

1) is it not possible he only wanted A until it turned to sex and he did it to keep her happy?

2) should I even try to R if no one believes it?

3) am I making a fool of myself even trying?

4) if he is being as remorseful as he can, bending over backwards to make things up shouldn't I try?

5) If I think that why am I so angry with him even though he is trying.

6) He accepts what he did was wrong. He doesn't flirt anymore, he seems to have changed.

7) Why do I hate him so much if I still love him?

8) what does he have to say to be believable.

I am not being awkward or confrontational, I'm not but I have got completely lost in my own head and need things simplifying.

I will read all your comments again and try and take them in. I am getting a bit confused on what everyone thinks I should do?

((((((((Olwen)))))) I am responding so much to you because you ARE me 12 months ago.

I am not condemning you...just empathizing strongly with you.

God be with you.

Thank you blake but I am really not sure what people are actually telling me to do. I am so confused. I am going to reread. I don't think I can be as strong as you.

He is refusing to admit to anything more so I don't know what to do?

How can I make a decision if I don't know what really happened?

I know he cheated. I know he lied to me. I know the EA was bad enough. I tried to kill myself after discovering the texts alone so believe me I do find the EA hard to swallow. I nearly left my poor boy without a mum it hit me so hard. I know he chose to do what he did in the car for whatever reason.

But the way it happened does matter to me. I can't help it.

To think he wanted her passionately and they had wild monkey sex, or even if he just enjoyed it would be too much for me to bear. He was meant to love me and only me. I have done so for him for 18years.

If it was something he didn't want to do it seems a bit easier. Don't get me wrong I have been trying to accept that for months now but I was making progress. I believed he really loved me and it had been an aberration. Something he got into and was too messed up in the head to get out of. So he took the no conflict route. That is easier for me to accept. If he got caught up in a situation of his own making and couldn't think clearly enough to stop it it seems less wanted.

I don't want to accept it if it isn't the truth but he is adamant it is.

Everyone is saying I can't move forward without the truth but he won't admit anything more so what do I do now?

It doesn't sound plausible to me because I haven't known a man to put his penis in a vagina, stroke three times and then stop. I'm not saying it can't happen, I just personally haven't, except one guy who came way too soon. I digress though.

His story just doesn't add up. He kissed her but didn't like it. He masturbated her, but didn't like it. He had sex with her but didn't like it. If he didn't like it, why did he keep going further?

No one here can tell you what to do, only you can decide that. At this point I would ask for a polygraph though.