SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

most of the time i dont think cheaters use condoms. part of the selfish wayward thinking. i mean, yes it makes sense to use them...but they are only thinking about themselves. i think if they say they used condoms, most of the time they are lying.

Your husband knows what you can't handle so he keeps it from you as to not end up D.

What really doesn't sit right with me is he is now admitting that the kissing and the lighter down the top was fun ... He said none of it was fun before so he has contradicted himself. So one of them is surely a lie. And if they were fun, what would make the sex a completely 180 turn off?

Last but not least ... If a man is thrusting in a woman, he completely lacks the ability to have the logical step by step thought process your husband describes. And if he was really put off after 3 strokes, he would have fallen out due to losing his erection rather than pull out a hard penis and stopping. A man with his penis in a woman is compelled to seek the orgasm.

What might be true is that it was uncomfortable in the position they were in so after 3 strokes, they repositioned.

But most of my doubt revolves around the logical thought process he describes while thrusting in a woman ... Men can't do that.

He says he only managed to get 3/4 hard and he practically had to stuff it in. He said he started going soft, was not enjoying it and had realised being inside another woman what he was doing.

I would agree with you if he was really up for it but as you say the position probably had something to do with it. It was so awkward he probably couldn't manage.

I do think its possible though cos he has done it with me. I have been abused in the past and he always said I could stop sex anytime I wanted. He has stopped after a short time with me a few times over the years when he has been really into it.

Hi olwen

A few thoughts as a fellow traveller in the very early days who knows very little

You decide what you do. Not anyone here. You. You are in charge of your future with or without this man

Your WH is still IMO in a type of fog. He didn't want to have sex with her... Maybe on some level he didn't but he made the choice he made. It's like when I'm on a diet. I don't actually want to eat the mars bar sitting on my desk but if I eat it then I have made an active choice to eat it. I may very well regret it afterwards but it was still my choice and feeling bad doesn't change the fact that I made my choice.

Your WH ate the bloody mars bar, may very well have not really enjoyed it and felt bad afterwards but that doesn't make any difference. The damn mars bar has still been eaten. And if he doesn't own what he did then what's to stop him eating the next mars bar that's offered?

He needs to sort out his bloody boundaries asap. No more stupid excuses. Man up. Now. Get IC and man up

FWIW it's not that he's actually necessarily lying to you (he might be, he might not). Right now it seems even he believes it. He needs to come face to face with reality or lose you. And he might lose you regardless. And if he does - nobody is to blame but him

The mars bar was exactly how I put it to him. He still insists someone can pressure you into eating the mars bar - arrggghhh!

I can't move forward til he admits the truth cos yeah I don't feel he will really learn til he faces the true story not this fairy tale.

If his boundaries are so poor he does things he knows are bad for him and those he supposedly loves just because he is asked then he needs to address the boundaries

I would make IC an absolute condition of even trying to work things out (in fact I have).

This is crap. My 3 year old knows that if she does what she isn't supposed to do that there are consequences and lying about it doesn't change that fact.

Really angry on your behalf

Thank you, I have given him til tomorrow to stop lying to me. The bike hasn't sold yet so we can't afford IC. I can tell from talking to him today that the 'I had to' story he is telling us both is bull.

H is making me physically ill and my mental illness worse. I have lost 2 stone (6lb in last 3 days) and lost half my hair.

I can't keep doing this. He has just text me he had posted somewhere on here asking for help. Surely he doesn't need help to face the truth? Only he knows that no one else can give it to him.

[This message edited by olwen at 5:26 AM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

He is saying he has blocked it out and y can't he remember etc.

It's not difficult. You just tell the truth.

Yawn yawn

They all think they're so original. Walking bloody cliches

His desire to see himself as a good guy is killing you.

He is not remorseful

He's still in the fog

Try to look after yourself

Is the 180 an idea?

Could be but right now I am just ready to end it.

He is making me ill with his inability to tell the truth. He has told himself this story for so long, and probably when he was doing it too but it doesn't make it the truth.

Like everyone on here has said. If he didn't want to do it he wouldn't have.

Last night was an eye opener for me. Realising he could disregard me so easily for his 'bit of fun on the side' shows me he is not the man I thought he was and made me realise he is lying about the car.

I don't think he will ever admit the truth so what's the point in trying and getting ill. I should just leave him to his rose tinted view of himself and he can grow old with his self respect intact but without me!

I don't know how many times my husband said he didn't remember. He did, he was just trying to protect himself.

That sounds entirely wise

You deserve much much much better

Olwen, the only thing Im trying to do is get you to listen to yourself..trust YOU. Stop asking him questions. He is lying. He is mindfucking you. It is taking a toll on your mental health. It is causing you further confusion. His words don't match up with what you know to be true.

Asking a foggy wayward questions only results in further pain for a BS. And a TTing WH is a foggy WH.

I want you to take care of you. have you read the 180? IIRC, you have tried it,but stopped? Try again. And again. For you. Im really worried about you.

I would but since he comes on here he knows all about the 180.

I can however put me first. I can protect my heart and put the shutters up. I will think the best way to deal with this. I will be detaching, it's happening naturally.

I can stop caring. He has driven me to this.

as I have said before for the time being we will remain in the same house for practical reasons. I need his help, he needs mine. Not for ourselves but for our son who has been through enough.

I am REALLY not well enough to look after ds alone. Side effects from my meds make mornings impossible. And I can't walk the dog, pick up prescriptions or get around alone. I am in therapy for this though and I hope it won't be a long term problem. we also can't afford to live apart, we are struggling financially even sharing a house.

So my plan is.

1) if he comes to me within the next 24 hours with the truth I will try and R. No promises and he better give me my space for a while but I will try.

2)If he doesn't then I know he is more important to him than I am. Time to step back

3)we will implement our back up plan of being housemates and co parents. At this point I really will have given up and won't care if he sees anyone else. I already wish he would get back with her as I can think of no better way for him to be walked all over like he has with me than by being with her!

4) when ds is old enough to understand and we have our finances straight and I get better (hopefully) we can look at separation. Its just not doable right now no matter what anyone says. If I can't get to my appointments I can't get my therapy and meds. If I can't get them I won't be fit to look after my son. That's my priority, my boy. there is no way WH is getting custody but there is no way I would get it after my health record, hospital admission and suicide attempts.

I don't want to give up on him. Apart from his cheating he has been a good man and I love him dearly but the way things stand there Is no chance for us other than being friends which I am sure we can get back no problems.

So let's focus on step one for today and see if he will wake up to the reality of what he did.

I am already detaching sadly so this will not drag on. Right now I don't love the man he is.

What does IIRC mean? I am not going to chase him for answers anymore. He can live with his little story in his head. It's about me and my boy now.

He has never liked to admit he is wrong. It's always someone elses fault. Can't believe I didn't see it sooner.

I can't write it here cos he read sometimes but I will be changing my attitude shall we say. for my boy to come first I need to come first. I can't look after him if I don't look after me.

If WH comes home tonight and tells me things clearly and honestly I will try R if not I won't. It takes two to R after all.

I won't wait forever for him to 'wake up' He can do that on his own time so to speak and I can't say I would R if he did wake up. Maybe I would but it's a bloody slim maybe. Feels like I won't be able to try R if it takes him any longer to wake up.

IIRC means if I recall correctly.

Thank you Samantha.

Well he has just come home on his lunch to talk to me. I am in pieces. I promised him I would give it 6 months before I made any decisions if he would just tell me the truth. Well,I think he has and I feel sick.

It's the typical story really. I won't bore you with all the reasons he thought an A was a good idea. It's the usual, we had grown apart, arguing all the time and hadn't had sex in 6 months so the closeness had gone. He doesn't blame me for this now but at the time he did. It was easier than him making changes and making an effort. Blame me and take his little admirer up on her offers. I have been ill and trying my best. He says it was his screwed up way of running away from our problems and it would never have happened if she had not come on the scene cos he wasn't looking for an out, just to feel better and she offered him that on a plate. All screwed up wayward thinking I know but I thought I would get that out of the way first. No 2x4 please. I know he should have come to me about it and to be fair he did try but I didn't realise how upset he was. I was too busy trying to look after our son during a difficult time in my own life.

Now to the facts, disgusting as they are. It's what he said a few weeks ago and took back cos he didn't want to believe it.

He DID fancy her, not enough that he would have been with her if he was single but for an affair she was perfect. Not interested in commitment just a bit of 'easy fun'. She was attractive enough to want to have sex with though.

He DID want to have sex with her. I know a lot of you won't believe all of this but I really do. Basically he wanted whatever she offered. He resented me for my illness and the break down of our relationship so he used that to justify his actions. all he said about feeling trapped by what he had done etc was true but it was only a tiny part of it. I was how he justified it to himself. In truth......he wanted to take whatever he could get, until he actually did it.

When she lifted her skirt he was shocked but it wasn't shit how do I get out of here like he said it was more wow this is my chance to sleep with someone new. He was excited at the thought of touching her and put all conscience out of his head. He was all set to make the most of his opportunity and looking forward to it. Huge ego boost and his 'one chance' as he saw it. So he reached over quite happily and was looking forward to the experience. He didn't give me a second thought apart from well the marriage is practically over so why shouldn't I take this opportunity. Like I said he was blaming me for his actions!

When he actually touched her he was disappointed. It didn't feel right and he wasn't enjoying it. He loved the thought of touching another woman but after 18 years with me it wasn't the thrill he had hoped for. Dry and unpleasant. That's when his conscience started creeping in and he was having a fight in his head. One part saying what are you doing the other part saying well she will never know and its her fault anyway. He stopped quickly though cos he didn't like the feel of her. He was disappointed cos he wanted to like it.

I don't think it helped that she never kissed or touched him. She was LETTING him have her. He didn't complain though and went for it.

Before you all shout BS! I just want to say

1) he wanted it

2) he took it

3) he wanted to like it

4) he ignored his conscience and blamed me.

If he has admitted all that which is pretty heavy going why would he lie about not enjoying it? He wanted it alright but didn't like it when he got it. That's why he stopped quickly but he still wanted to try more...

It DIDN'T stop him getting in the back seat. Again he was flattered. He had not enjoyed the kisses or touching her but what the hell he wasn't going to say no. He thought sex would be better. That he would enjoy it. He said he thought why not. It's my one chance to have sex with someone else. He was not going to say no. again though it didn't meet expectations. He tried! He put it in three times hoping it would feel better but it didn't. Again he was disappointed. Then cos he wasn't enjoying it he woke up very suddenly to what he was doing. The fog lifted. He was disgusted by himself and put it all away in a little box and said it was ok cos he would never do it again It was over. He had taken all she offered and gladly but it didn't meet expectations so he didn't want her anymore. God I almost feel sorry for her the way he played her. But she was playing him too.

He still took everything she offered with the intention of enjoying it and although he knew he didn't have a condom he didn't plan as far ahead as what he was going to do when he came. He fully intended to enjoy it and come bit logically he didn't think that far.

So it was all his big chance to sleep with someone else. Someone who boosted his ego. He blamed me for it all to justify his actions and told himself he had no choice cos of the EA but in truth they were just lies.

He did it all because he wanted to.

The only reason he didn't come was cos he didn't like the feel of her and his conscience kicked in. In his mind he only went too far when he entered her. He wanted it to work, he wanted to come. PIG!!!

I am now facing the hardest time of my life.

I have told him I won't make any decisions for 6 months but that he had better give me some space when I try and work through this.

He was honestly lying to himself as much as me. It doesn't make it right but he couldn't face the truth and how it would hurt me.

I believe I have the truth now. He wasn't that physically into her that he was busting his jeans. It was the opportunity arose and he gladly took it. It was all a disappointment though. It was the thought of it he enjoyed. How many of us have wanted something then not liked it when we got it. To me it's plausible.

He has admitted he couldn't have loved me when he was with her but that now he sees things how they really are and he is terrified of losing me.

Shame he didn't think of that sooner,

Gotta chime in. As a male of the species, a husband, a WS, and a sexual being...your WH is, gently, full of shit.

Your BS compatriot's "BS-O-Meters" are red lining. And inside, yours is too.

I hope your WS will remove his head from that dark, smelly place located betwixt his butt cheeks. It's actually freeing to emerge and look around and see yourself for what you have become...and actually SEE up close and personal the person you've betrayed. I hope he'll emerge before it's too late. And that's just the beginning...

JD

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 7:44 AM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

Okay Olwen...this is a long response. I am trying to relay what 1 year and thousands of dollars in IC has done for me.

I will use lots of quotes to tie what I believe are some very good comments throughtout this post. If they are plain quotes they are yours, if they are in bold they are another members.

Here we go....

I do tend to try and blame her and myself but he won't let me.

He is very clear it's all on him.

I did the same thing, my wife even yelling at me "It's not about you!" I finally got that...but until I got it I felt really powerless. You will know when YOU get it because you will feel the power too. Affairs are about NOTHING else but the two people engaged in them.

No I am not ok with the EA but as it only lasted 3 weeks I can kind of understand how someone can get caught up n a new friendship and heave it turn into an EA without really realising you have gone too far.

Duration means nothing...my wife had less than 60 hours face time with her AP before his cock was in her mouth. That is 1.5 weeks. Her EA with him started almost immediately. Again, this is a moot point and should not be a factor. To include it is to minimize the affect it has on you, your marriage, and your family. My wifes affair started very innocently...I totally believe that is the truth. But the fact is she continued to make choices well past that "innocent" phase, so did your husband. IF your husband or my wife would have come home and told us about the relationship immediately this could have been avoided....but they choose not to.

I know I defend him cos part of me still loves him but that part is slowly dying as I think of every betrayal. He had me and I wasn't enough.

Yes, I love my wife too...always have. That slow death feeling? That is the M you had dying. This is where I royally screwed up. I entered MC after DD with this crazy notion that we were somehow a team...like we were fighting cancer together. WRONG! She was busy finding new ways to feed her A and to take it to the next level....they had not been phsyical up to that point. You are no longer a team at the point adultery is invited into your M. Your husband very much wants to be a team NOW because this is "hard for him"....he wants you to do his heavy lifting for him, and you want to do that out of the love you feel for him...you want to help him with his "battle on cancer". This is logical with cancer, it is illogical with adultery. This is their yoke to be burdened with. Oh...an you ARE enough, always were. You could not have told him you loved him more often, baked more cookies for him, had more sex with him....he was not open to accept love from you and instead sought gratification outside your marriage. This is the BIG question a fWS has to answer...and YOU are not the answer.

His declarations of love mean nothing cos he didn't love me when it mattered.

....and this....

what does he have to say to be believable.

go hand in hand.

Vows are words. If words were enough adultery would not be an option for a spouse. Words AFTER adultery have zero meaning. ACTIONS...that is where trust come froms, where connections are established. His actions of anger, trickle truthing, and defensiveness deteriorate trust and leave you feeling unloved, stupid and crazy. They are used to push his feelings onto you and keep you from expressing your feelings fully....which is why you keep coming back with more questions. He uses this to back you down, your own mind doesnt like the pain so you back yourself down. Once your mind gets used to the pain he will not be able to back you down. You may choose to not engage him anymore and choose to leave the M, but he won't be able to back you down. The cycle will be broken.

if he is being as remorseful as he can, bending over backwards to make things up shouldn't I try?

Absolutely!!! As long as he is trying you should be trying. Look, we all are going to stumble...sometimes we are going to stumble three times in a row...as long as you both recognize you are trying I believe we should keep trying. Stumbles hurt, but pain is good..it helps us grow. Pain turns into suffering after adultery when either the fWS or BS quits trying and the other keeps trying....then R is just suffering because the M will not grow.

should I even try to R if no one believes it?

This is HUGE. Please...you must find it in yourself to decide the answer to this question. We only know your sitch through your posts. I like you, I feel for you, but your posts have your bias in them. We cant see body languages, tones, cantor....so we are only privy to 30% of the communication taking place in your marriage. That means we are missing 70% of what is really being "said". You are the one who is "in it". You must be able to find that answer on your own. Even a therapist cant give you the answer..they just lead you to it. Keep in mind that just because the answer is within you, doesnt mean you have to find it RIGHT NOW! It has taken me months to process enough to know what some of MY answers are.

He is refusing to admit to anything more so I don't know what to do?

Write down your questions....you gaps in his story. Tell husband you have done that and that you will use this a guide into the future. He will know that you are serious about this and the question list will keep you focused...and focus is hard to come by, especially early on. Also ask for a written timeline. Even in a short duration A it gets confusing to keep track of the details. And details appear very important to you, as they are to me as well. Some BS don't want or need the details...but I suspect you are one that does.

How can I make a decision if I don't know what really happened?

You can't. So until you get the truth I would recommend NOT making big decisions.

Thank you, I have given him til tomorrow to stop lying to me.

CAUTION: I believe firm black and white directives work well when dealing with a finite situation...such as "End your A today or move out." but they don't work well with truth demands (see my paragraph on "truths and counseling below". I recommend what was passed to me...that is choose longer time lines on issues such as the truth surrounding the A. Choose any time period to make this bearable...say 6 months from today. This gives you more peace and reduces the pressure you have put on yourself to get answers. If you think that you have to have answers "before he gets home from work" or "by tomorrow" it really adds undo pressure. If you leave the M right now...when his A has ended and you are learning to process through it....you will still have to process through this.

NOTE: For the record I have found that, for me to be able to see progress I have to take my point of reference in at least weeks if not months. I can't see progress from day to day, and I am 14 months out. I can see progress from week to week, and see more from month to month, and even more from today compared to 14 months ago.

To think he wanted her passionately and they had wild monkey sex, or even if he just enjoyed it would be too much for me to bear. He was meant to love me and only me. I have done so for him for 18years.

My wife and I were each others "firsts" and on schedule to be "onlies"...that goal has died when my wifes affair started. I feel your pain in this quote. It is very hard to accept the reality of our M post-A...of our image of our spouses post-A. But we must accept it. Careful of that last sentence...it could breed serious resentment in the years to come. You choose to honor your vows and to love your husband. He did not demand it of you, you choose to do it. The fact that he took that for granted, perhaps even used your love and trust of him against you does not alter the fact that the decision to honor and love your husband was not by anything other than your choice. Now you can choose if it was worth it, if you can do it again, etc.

If it was something he didn't want to do it seems a bit easier.

Yes...if my wife was held at gun point and was forced to take his cock in her mouth I would not consider that adultery. I would track that SOB to the ends of the earth and inflict a slow, horrible death on him. But that is not our reality. Instead of the manly course of action I just described, I took my shattered heart to therapy weekly, cry spontaneously, have screamed at God, and am healing from a pain I never thought I would feel, never imagined how devastated a person could feel and continue to breath. I get what you are desiring...but you must find a way through the stage of "hoping for a better past."

believed he really loved me and it had been an aberration. Something he got into and was too messed up in the head to get out of. So he took the no conflict route.

...this is the story of most BS on this site. I still wrestle with the motives at play within my wife.....

Everyone is saying I can't move forward without the truth but he won't admit anything more so what do I do now?

You work with what you got. I personally concentrate on what I am grateful for. I am grateful for my wife and I still working on this very tough pain, I am grateful for my two healthy daughters, I am grateful for my good job, for our good cars, for eating out, for fresh air, for trees turning colors, for...etc. etc. etc. Try and focus on good stuff. I have a weekend away with my wife coming up....no kids, not books, no therapy, no retreat...just us. I pray it will be a good experience. I have faith this is a good choice. I am grateful we can afford to do this. Try and start a "grateful list"....I started small...and it has grown.

This is part of the process...it doesnt appear to be core to the issue...but it helps more then you might think.

[quote]Your husband knows what you can't handle so he keeps it from you as to not end up D.

seriouslylowstit

Careful on this one....you did mention an attempted suicide so I want to be gentle here.... Most WS "think" they know what is best for all involved...but do they really? Olwen, can you really not handle the truth? Does your mind not fill in "worst case scenarios" when the truth is lacking? Again...be patient with yourself...try to feel the pain and see if it is really unbearable to you. I have been in several spots where I think "thats it"! But find myself on the otherside of it...thinking, huh, that wasnt that bad.

But, if you really think you can't handle it then his A really was a deal breaker for you. I get that too.

FWIW it's not that he's actually necessarily lying to you (he might be, he might not). Right now it seems even he believes it.

Marathonwaseasy

Very good wisdom. Counselor has pointed out something called "truths of the moment" within an A. Some people have such a strong fear of conflict that they dont even allow it inside their own minds....so they block some truths from themselves. This is where IC is a critical for that person. (IC was critical for me too...I was not aware of parts of ME until IC).

H is making me physically ill and my mental illness worse.

His actions of the past are the big factor...the lying and partial truths continue to open that wound. You have some control here...

This is where that grateful list comes in handy...I am grateful I am within 10 pounds of my highschool weight!

Stop asking him questions. He is lying.

...here is your choice. By asking him questions you invite him to lie to you. Stop asking questions. He knows what you want, let him decide if he can man-up and get you the answers. This might mean to say things that will hurt you, it might mean to go to IC to find the answers he doesnt have to give you right now...enabling him to get those answers back to you. It might be he decides he will chose to D you rather then face the full consequences of his actions. I suspect that last sentence made you stop breathing...it did me to, early on. Now it doesn't. Once I realized my wife choose to comitt adultery, was able to sit in counseling and watch me in pain and choose him over us, I realized my wife had ALREADY D me...she just took the easy way out. Right now she is showing remorse for her actions and is committed to our M. But make no mistake about it...adultery is choosing another over your spouse, it is choosing to abandon your M (just like D).

I would but since he comes on here he knows all about the 180.

CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION: 180 is not a "manipulation tool". No doubt it can and will influence a change in any realtionship, but if you go into it with the attitude that "this will fix him" or "this will get me the spouse I deserve or want" then it will fail. You might repeat past unhealthy cycles, or start a brand new unhealthy cycle...but this is not the intent of 180.

Your husband could memorize 180 and it still be effective in changing YOU. That is where the 180 is helpful and healthy...allowing a BS the ability to see that they will be fine, and could actually be healthier, without their fWS. It helps a person that looses themself in this process to find their way out on their own. Again, a WS abandons their BS....this is no longer a "team effort". 180, when done correctly, is a solo venture through some of this pain.

At some point true R starts to take hold and you have to decide it you want to be vulnerable once again to connecting to your spouse.

Love must be tough. by Dr. Dobson is a GREAT read. It is "180" in detail...it sets the stage in a more full fashion so you truly change for healthy reasons.

God be with you Olwen. I am saying a specific prayer for you now.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:12 AM, November 5th (Tuesday)]

Thank you so much blakesteele. Even though he has now confessed his true feelings for her it actually came at just the right time. I was just starting to break down and think how the heck do I move past this?

can I ask should I be doing 180 with a remorseful spouse? He has been remorseful and making real changes. It was just him holding back the truth that was holding us back. I don't want to distance from him too much?

I promised him I would take 6 months to absorb whatever he told me but now I am stuck. What do I do with this new information

I do love him but how could my husband want another woman enough to betray me so deeply all the while knowing it was wrong but squashing down his conscience so he could take his chance at sleeping with someone new?

I don't even get it. His first post months ago was all about how great I am. How sexy etc. we truly do have an amazing sex life. So why would he want a chance to sleep with someone else? Ego is all I can think. And curiosity. Above all weakness.

My heart is broken