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Stan,

A wise man once told me, "you are what you were when you were value programmed, and you are value programmed between the ages of approximately 7 and 17, and the only exception to this is when a person experiences a major life traumatic event such as rape, murder, near death experience, divorce, death of a child or spouse etc." My point is, I recommend that you take a good, practical look at her history to see the pattern. You might find that you are precisely the type of person she likes to pray on. Also, you can't nice her into changing herself. This event needs to be traumatic for her, enough for her to self assess and realize the way she's been doing it hasn't been working for her, and then change. You can be respectful, yes, but she needs a full dose of reality, not nice.

Also, the brain chemistry is a battle, you need to reinforce no contact big time. She is addicted to him because of the brain chemistry.

[This message edited by still-living at 5:19 AM, December 24th (Tuesday)]

Glad your doing relatively okay Stanley. This shit sucks and it will suck for awhile. Take care of yourself and your kids. Remember your WW does not get to control how you deal with the shit sandwich she laid in your lap. She is either 100% in or she isn't in at all. Best of luck and keep posting it really does help.

Stan,

Try to stay focused on your needs and your kids. Your wife will demonstrate her true stripes over time with actions not words. You can't control her or the outcome directly. Please care for yourself, this shut sucks let alone during the holiday.

LHAP?

I just read through your story and am so angered by this woman's actions and complete and utter disregard for you and your children.

My FWH was one that became remorseful and threw the OW under the bus. If he acted like your WW I would have kicked his ass to the curb.

You're not married, right? I would make her a lovely Christmas card that says this:

I can not be in a relationship with a drug abusing whore. It sets a bad example for my children. Therefore, I'm giving you a week to find yourself a place to live.

Merry Christmas!

If she gets angry with you for calling her that ask her what she would call a woman who does drugs and has sex with married men?

You deserve so much better.... Re-read all of the messages on here daily. You'll soon see that she is a cliche' - they're all pretty much the same, unfortunately.

Have you read up on the 180? It is in The Healing Library, Betrayed Spouse FAQ #11...I think.

I didn't see it mentioned in the previous posts, so if I missed it, just ignore the following.

The 180 is a detachment tool. It will help you distance yourself emotionally from your partner, and will let you see things in a much clearer light. It is also extreme counterintuitive to the newly betrayed's mindset:

I know what I have to do, it just goes against the way I feel about her and how much I love her.

That is how we all felt when we started this mess. That is what the 180 is there for---not to win your WS back, but to get you on the road to recovery. And being that your current method has not been working well(don't worry---we ALL have done this), what have you got to lose?

It comes down to the damned textbook behavior of a wayward mindset. If you do stand up for yourself, and refuse to allow her continued behavior, one of two things is going to happen---(1)she will wake up from her poor behavior, or (2)she will not. Being that you can only control yourself, and not her, you have to prepare yourself for option number two. And the faster that you get yourself emotionally detached, the faster your recovery.

You may be asking yourself: "If I do detach from her, won't I drive her away? Also, will I be able to reconnect with her, if she does commit to me?"

The answer to the first question is a resounding "NO". If she chooses to leave you due to you standing up for what should minimally be expected from a partner, then there was nothing to save. Would you want a partner that wouldn't fight for you---especially after they cruelly betrayed you?

The second part of the question---can you reconnect after disengaging, is entirely up to you. But remember, the important part of that equation is that if you do decide to recommit to her---if she pulls her head out of her ass, and recommits to you---is that it will be of your own free CHOICE....not one motivated by fear of losing her. That, my friend, is what we call a healthy choice.

Keep us posted. We know how much "easier said than done" this really is. It is a nightmare that seems impossible to escape, but you can. And you will.

Stanley, your last post was very encouraging. I think you now realize that this is a power struggle and the one who is prepared to risk and potentially lose all, will triumph. If you can't metaphorically bring your wife off that pedestal of arrogance and superiority she will not regain any respect for you.

I won't sugarcoat it, you are in for a lot of pain. Most of us have been through this ordeal but you will come out stronger and equally determined that you won't let her dump over you ever again. just keep posting; we are all fervently supporting you.

She is beginning to make it easier for me to be angry now because she is acting like she's the queen of control.

That you can recognize this is great. For many of us it took far too long to get to this point.

Keep reminding yourself that you are enough, enough, enough. We all see it and want you to see it as well.

And keep posting updates. There are so many of us who are in your corner.

Stan....

the pencil dick she's torn over has left town for the holidays with his wife and won't be back for a couple of weeks.

Dude.....does the OMs wife know of the affair? Have you talked to her?

Your wife is NOT a good source of this information....cheaters lie.

One more question....are "they" still in any contact....any at all???

R...should you choose that.... WILL NOT happen if they are in any contact...

Keep us posted....you have received a lot of good advice here...from a lot of folks that have BTDT (been there done that)...all affairs are different...BUT some of the patterns of behavior are the same...its almost as if the cheaters have a handbook they read first....

You will NOT nice guy her back...lay down what you expect from your wife - be prepared to back it up....No...I didn't want a divorce...wanted a cheatin' wife even less...KWIM?

My wife didn't want to "discuss her affair" either....shit...I told here that's ok...."you can listen".....then proceeded to "draw that line in the dirt"....like Travis at the Alamo - let her know what you expect....your expectations and your limitations, Bro.....banging some other "swinging dick" is a no-no in my book - should be in yours, too...then act accordingly....

I have cattle...(yeah...im a redneck) one of my cows jump the fence to visit the neighbors bull - shes goin to the sale - I hold my wife to the same principle....."honey - im cuttin' you loose as long as your bangin' some other dude".....

Shes in a deep fog...rainbows, unicorns, warm fuzzies and bullshit....she needs a "reality check".....and fast...Bettin' you've heard the "ILYBINILWY" speech - yeah...its fantasy bullshit too....right outta the cheaters handbook.....My FWW pulled that "soulmates" line too....of course "youre soulmates"..."meant to be together"....yada....yada...otherwise youre a whore.....KWIM?

Stan..until I got a "snotting, blubbering, crying, im SO sorry I hurt you, mascara dripping off her chin" apology.....I was in a full court press 180.....and I lawyered up.....im certainly not a fan of "sloppy seconds"....if my wife doesn't think im the greatest thing since "cleavage and sliced bread".....I don't want her either...."fake it till you make it", bro....shes gonna hump your leg as long as you let her....(pun intended ...OK?)...

Not trying to 2x4 ya here....nor am I tryin to beat you up....

Lots of good advice here....seen this play out over and over here on SI over the years...

3 in a marriage is one too many.....

Keep us posted, Bro....

Bufffalo

Ok, so I am ready to confront her with an ultimatum and make her choose him or me. I am ready to stand by my decision to do this and more importantly I'm ready stand up and walk away if I have too. What I need help and reassurance with is this, "Can or should I give her time to process my ultimatum?" Do I give her an hour, a day, a week? Any and all thoughts on this would be helpful!!!

No time-line is necessary. Just tell her that you cannot live and love someone who has another love interest. Start the process of disengaging. If and when she decides to try to jump aboard the moving train as it leaves the station, you have the choice of possibly helping her aboard. That is your choice. What is not your choice is whether she wants to try with you.

Start disengaging, let her know and move on with your life. You will arrive in a safe place. It might be with her and it might be without her. Start the journey to the safe place now, otherwise you will be prolonging the pain and putting off the healing.

I would give two minutes (if that much).

Do not make it an ultimatum between you and OM. She already chose you when you got married so an ultimatum treats it like you and OM are somehow on equal footing vying for your WW's affections. Guaranteed that will just feed her ego even more.

The question is whether she is willing to do what it necessary to keep you as a husband because after all of this crap she is, in all honestly, lucky you even want her. Permanent and immediate NC with OM is just the beginning, correct? Also "choosing" between you and OM makes it more about her and what she wants. This is about what you are no longer willing to accept.

She's got some serious work to do fix her crap. She's played on your hopes of R and made you afraid of alienating her. Enough is enough. She needs to grow the hell up and treat you and your kids better.

p.s. I would even go so far as to recommend you not put this to her as a choice or decision at all. Just get your ducks in a row and file for legal separation and tell her "You said <various insane things about OM and the A> and made it clear you're not remorseful for the incredible hurt you've inflicted, you're not motivated to do any work to rebuild the trust you broke so what did you expect?"

[This message edited by Brandon808 at 1:33 PM, December 26th, 2013 (Thursday)]

The reason why ultimatum time frames are not helpful is that any response is "all talk." What you need in any reconciliation is action. Such action includes both active efforts and cessation of certain behaviors. Both of these thing take time to manifest themselves, if they even begin at all. Just tell her what is up and start moving on. You will either see effort from her or you won't. You will be able to make decisions based on how you feel as you move on from infidelity. DO NOT stop your detachment just because she says something--consistent repeated action is required before you should even consider letting her back in.

Don't give her a timeframe, and don't give her an ultimatum. Simply tell her you cannot remain in a marriage with another man in it. Tell her it's over and disengage.

If she wants you, she will let you know, and she will show you with her actions. If she does, you can decide if you still want her.

And really, would you be comfortable with her if it takes her a week to decide if she wants you? That's just demeaning.

[This message edited by sudra at 1:44 PM, December 26th (Thursday)]

WElocme Stan - I have to chime in here, and offer my 2 cents worth, and you can take it or leave it, but Bufffalo has given you excellent advice, as usual.

So you are finding your voice, and you are no longer so broken by what she has done that you can actually think halfway straight. Great. NOW WHAT?!?!?

Now you tell her you deserve more, and you demand more. You will no longer be a 3rd person in your relationship, if she wants to carry on the A, great, have at it, and there's the door, and I will be happy to hefty bag your shit up for you. If you want to stay great, but the deal is absolutley no more contact with this other douche, and she sends a NC email/letter/phonecall immediately. If not there's the door.

If I understand right you are not married so that makes throwing her out easier legally. Also busting this thing wide open to all involved, or being affected by it helps tremendously when it's time to bring it to an end. That means telling the other man's wife, and if your kids are adults, letting them know at a minimum that you are having relationship issues.

Next you need to see your Dr and get some pharmaceutical support if you are having trouble with the basic three, sleeping, eating, and staying hydrated. If you can't do this you cant and won't think straight. You need to sleep you need a minimum of 800 calories daily. If you don't want antidepressants that's fine, but at least get something to take the edge of the anxiety you are experiencing.

I can tell you that even taking a hard nosed approach to R. Can be fraught with missteps, and pain, but R can be possible if you demand the respect you deserve, if you don't she will continue to cakeeat, and abuse you. Yes this is a form of abuse.

Take time for you every day, do something nice for you every day. You will survive this, with or without her, and like all major life traumas you will be stronger, smarter, and even more capable when you recover from it.

If she is willing to jump in with both feet be prepared with your list of expectations so you can immediately work toward healing.

Buffalo said this better than I could:

Stan....

the pencil dick she's torn over has left town for the holidays with his wife and won't be back for a couple of weeks.

Dude.....does the OMs wife know of the affair? Have you talked to her?

Your wife is NOT a good source of this information....cheaters lie.

One more question....are "they" still in any contact....any at all???

R...should you choose that.... WILL NOT happen if they are in any contact...

Please inform the other BS. It is imperative. Their trashy tryst cannot survive the light of truth.

I feel for you Stanly, putting up with a lover in the fog. A shit sandwich for sure!

Please grow your pair soon. I hate to see you disrespected. Take care my friend.

Stanley, everyone here is right about telling his wife. If she had been the one to discover the affair, how would you feel if she didn't tell you, and the affair continued, and she knew it, and she still didn't tell you? You would be very angry, and somewhat humiliated because everyone knew but you.

Here's another thing about not letting his wife know the truth: You are helping him. That's right - you are keeping his secret from his wife. You are protecting him. Don't do it.

Remember, you would want to know, no matter what.

Do NOT tell your wife you will be letting OBS (other betrayed spouse) know. She will tell OM, and he will make up something about you being crazy and jealous and all kinds of nonsense. Just tell her. Then tell your wife you've told.

If you're worried about angering your wife, don't. All WSs threaten to leave if you tell. They all try to manipulate it. They are protecting their AP. They didn't leave you yet so they aren't going to because you told OBS. In fact, in the 3 years since my DDay, I have yet to see one WS that left because OBS was told. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've never seen it.

You may have heard she is crazy, or unstable, or doesn't care because they have an open marriage. You may have heard they're married in name only, or that she has attempted suicide before, or that she is violent and will lash out at your wife. The reality is she's just like you - a loving spouse that is being destroyed behind her back by OM.

If you can say, honestly, that you would rather not know, then don't tell her. If you are glad you have the truth, no matter how much it hurts, because it's better than the lies you were fed, then tell her. She will feel the same way.

Regarding giving her one last chance to make the right choice:

I agree with not doing it as an ultimatum. Simply tell her that you are done being a part of this sick relationship. Tell her that you have decided that you will not spend one more minute as a married man whose wife has a boyfriend - not one more minute. Therefore, the ball is in her court. She can choose her marriage and the life you and she built, or she can choose being a married man's mistress, but she cannot choose both. YOU will no longer be disrespected, and YOU will no longer tolerate selfishness from someone that claims to love you. You are done, and you have boundaries.

If she asks for ANY time at all to think about it, say 'sure' and then grab a trash bag and start putting her things in it. When she gets upset and asks what you are doing, tell her you're helping her to go wherever she's going while she thinks about it, because she will NOT stay where you are. Let her know you are dead serious, and you are taking action now. No more doormat, no more time given, no more being told that there will be no discussions. No, YOU are controlling your world now, not her.

You can do this Stanley. You really can, and you will feel so much better as soon as you do it, no matter what she says in response.

Start the journey to the safe place now, otherwise you will be prolonging the pain and putting off the healing

Stanley,

Just caught up with your thread. I'm so sorry you are going through this shit. You are being abused. Pure and simple. I gave my STBX ultimatum after ultimatum. Once she realized after the first one had passed with no follow-through by me, it was a free license for her to continue her affair, and it just got worse and worse.

In hindsight I would have given her one ultimatum--him or me and our children--and then been on the phone with my attorney. One minute to decide. Then keep the divorce process going to the very bang of the judge's gavel. Her actions between the ultimatum and the gavel will show you in no uncertain terms what she wants her life to be.

Don't be me.

you are probably wondering how it's possible that we are all saying the exact same thing.

It's the playbook. Cheaters follow a script. It's shocking how all these situations are similar. All of these people cheating think they are setting the world on fire and they are out on the edge doing something new and unique.

Folks here can probably tell you with shocking accuracy what your WW is going to do next. It's because their WW did it too, guess what, so did mine.

For us this is a movie we have seen a few hundred times. We KNOW how it ends. We know what all the characters are going to do. When know when the bad guy is on the other side of the door.

This is the same as us yelling at the screen trying to warn the hero of the story. We know what's going to happen please take the advice of the people here.

Stanley,

Damaged's post looks so familiar I believe he posted it to my thread at some point in the past year when I was exactly where you were. Please believe every word of it. I did not at the time. The stories are identical. The people here really did tell me firmly and unerringly what would happen. I did not listen because I was certain they could not possibly know. My situation was different. It wasn't, Stanley.

Remove yourself from this pain. I assure you, it gets unimaginably worse.

Stanley? Just checking on you. Update when you can.