SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I can't read your H's posts because they trigger me too much due to the (IMO) porn addiction & justification-speak. I heard those same lines from my ex over & over & over. I've often wondered what the other side of the story might be. Thank you for sharing. You & I aren't all that different. I totally understand feeling used, hollow, like a receptacle, and the degradation of having a H who refuses to finish inside you. I used to feel like a cheap whore who he couldn't even be bothered kiss.

I consider porn use to be infidelity. It takes away from the marital relationship and often serves as a substitute for it. My ex would reenact horrible scenarios he viewed in porn. It completely destroyed my sex drive and warped his view of sex. He was unable to be aroused by a normal woman or normal sex.

I can't really help you. I just wanted to reach out to you and let you know that I understand what you're saying.

I really appreciate the responses and suggestions. I've taken all of them to heart. ThoughtIKnewYa, I will look into recoverynation. SadInNC, we have used notebook writing as a means of communication before and it does work really well for us. It slows us down, makes us think, and keeps us focused. We will definitely do this when it comes to this sensitive, sore subject. Thank you for reminding me about that.

Rachelc, SoVerySadNow, still-living – I didn’t mean to call people out or point fingers. I do know that everyone is just trying to help. Thank you for your apologies and reaching out, please know that I don’t feel any animosity towards individual posters. I wanted to share how frustrated I am that my BH turns to a forum instead of me to get answers, that it’s done in such a short time frame that we don’t even have time to fully explore our feelings or thoughts, and that other people’s words are given more weight than my own. That is what hurts me. It’s nice to have others hear me or validate my feelings but, just like everyone else here, I want that to happen first and foremost with my spouse.

Neverwudaguessed, you do seem to have a good read on our marriage, thank you. I'm not sure I've explained everything correctly regarding porn and how it stopped, etc.

Periodically throughout our marriage I would mention how his inability to O in me made me feel bad. Because I didn't have any other sexual experience to reference, I wasn't sure if it was his deal or something wrong with me. I suspected it could be because he was used to the "death grip" and I would try to gently suggest he stop masturbating for a while. He would assure me that it was just how he was and that everything was fine with him as far as our sex life went. And then I would kegel like a maniac . While I knew that he watched porn (and we watched it together occasionally) and MB, he didn’t tell me that he was doing it nearly every day.

Eventually I became wore down from worrying about it and trying to fix it, usually silently and alone because I felt it was my issue and my problem. He seemed to confirm that with his repeated reassurances that I should stop worrying about it. I told him I needed to take a break from intercourse, that I would do anything and everything else but not intercourse. It was just too disappointing and depressing for me. That seemed to challenge and excite him and a few weeks later we were back to intercourse. I just gave up. And I say that with extreme remorse and sorrow. I’m really ashamed that I just gave up and I never talked to him again about how much it hurt. I thought I would just have to live with it and deal with disappointment in that area. I see now that I hurt our marriage so deeply by remaining silent, that I let myself down and him too. That is really a big reason why I feel compelled to be vocal with him about where I stand now with sex. I don’t want to keep hurting him by sharing these hard feelings. I want to pull him close and comfort him and I so wish we had hysterical bonding so it could be a form of reassurance to him and bonding for us. But staying silent and stuffing the truth isn’t an option anymore.

What changed the situation was a few months after DDay my BH read Every Man’s Battle. He was convicted to stop porn and MB all on his own. It had nothing to do with me or my painful feelings about it. About a month after that he O’d in me naturally and with ease. I was shocked. One month. That’s it. All those years, all those feelings of inadequacy, something I had longed for our whole marriage…. Changed in one month. I’m working through that and trying to work on healing and letting go of the past. It’s what I wanted for so long. I know I should be happy and grateful. And I am. I am SO, SO grateful. He is a new man in this area. I get confused because I guess I figured that would fix all our problems in the bedroom. It was such a large and looming source of sadness for me that, now that it’s no longer an issue, I don’t understand why I am still struggling. I’m eager to look at the resources people here have suggested. They sound like they could help. And to be clear, my BH has apologized so many times it almost makes me uncomfortable. I know he wasn’t trying to hurt me, I know we were both doing the best we could and we would change things if we could. I have forgiven him and I deeply appreciate where he stands now with porn and MB. I want to put it in the past and move forward. We still have the rest of our lives to have a fulfilling, healthy sexual relationship. I want that very badly with him. I have never been in a spot like this where I want to feel a certain way but I don’t. I’m frustrated with myself and why the needle isn’t moving on this issue. I’m stuck here and I have been in IC but stopped because I felt stuck there too.

sadone29, I’m glad you are chiming in. I can hear the sadness in your posts. I’m sorry. I know how painful it is and how it creates a distance. It’s hard when you feel rejected and inadequate even if you know it’s not about you. I pray that you know you are perfect just as God made you and you are enough. I’ll keep you posted on what I learn and how we are growing through this.

Hugs, honey and thank-you. I had the same marriage. No O for him (or for me, sadly) but God help me if I mentioned it or wanted to work to improve things. I got mocked and humiliated. Eventually he had full blown ED. I had no idea he was using porn, seeing strippers and having EAs and PAs. I thought it was me.

You have your work cut out for you and I think you have the character for it. Keep posting. Support on this site is strong for all.

It's such an amazing flood of conflicting emotions, when they begin to detox from porn and can finally perform with you. For me, it was an overwhelming combination of joy and relief...following by an equally overwhelming wave of anger and resentment and grief for so much unnecessary pain and wasted time.

Since we are all sharing so much, I want to add another facet of the path my SAH and I are traveling. When SAH was first diagnosed as an SA, he and I both knew I was at breaking point, This was our last chance, and he knew I was partway through the door. The shame of finally facing his addiction and the pain and damage it had caused brought up huge abandonment fears for him. I think too he was grateful that I was willing to consider working through recovery with him, during that month, he was able to obtain an erection and o with "just" me. It was wonderful, in a way only those of us who have lost our husbands to porn/acting out can understand.

But then, as quickly as things got better, they disappeared. SAH has moved away from trying to cling to me from a position of fear and shame - which is healthy and necessary for him to truly face his demons and get well. But without that unhealthy motivation, again he has lost the ability to obtain and maintain a functional erection without a LOT of work on my part. In many ways, it is harder to face his ED now - because I know it IS ABSOLUTELY an indication of his emotional closeness to or distance from me. And after 14 years of non-intimate sex, I have no interest in one more meaningless tumble, even though I love him dearly.

Same too for medications. We cycled through Viagra, Cialis, et al. They would work for a bit, then gradually become less and less effective. Because really, the issue has nothing to do with blood vessels and valves. It's all "in his head" (which is not to say it isn't very much real - it is, just not in a way that medicines will help.).

One night, as the initial improvement was wearing off, SAH took a pill before sex without telling me. Since things had started worrying me before, I was SO joyful that he was again able to perform, to get aroused with just me. It made me cry, feeling so close and intimate with him. And then...he told me he had taken a pill. I was just crushed. It was as if my dreams for us had finally come true only to have it ripped away all over again - but this time I actually knew what I was losing, not just imagining what it might be like. I immediately tossed the meds and told him I could handle whatever might happen between us in bed, but I was done with anything but just the two of us being part of it.

Many porn addicts make the mistake of white-knuckling it through abstinence without ever doing the core work needed to actually get sober. (Similar to a "dry drunk" - a term I've come to know through this journey) It seems as if BS may use research and intellectual study as a shield to avoid facing the deeper work needed to truly recovery. I recognize it because it tends to be my avoidance technique as well, and my SAH's too.

Also, one other thought on a different but related note. I mentioned before that SA/PA is really a profound intimacy problem. One thing that (still) drives me CRAZY is the disconnect between how SAH can treat other people and how he treats me. Your BS speaks of being empathetic with co-workers and able to handle conflicts outside of your home in a respectful and healthy manner, but that it is hard to respond the same way to conflicts at home. That is a classic trait of many SA/PAs. It is easy to be empathetic, understanding, and just generally wonderful for people with whom you have no intimate connection. They don't threaten the SA with the possibility of abandonment or having to face their own shameful behavior. For years, I would cry over my SAH's caring treatment of random women at work while coming home and being so distant and uncaring to me and our children. Now I know that he can easily be nice to people at work because they simply don't matter to him. It's maddening, insanely so, but he has to keep us at arm's length and not understand or meet our needs because that would bring him closer to us, and closeness, to him, equals risk and the possibility of being hurt. A huge part of his recovery will get him to a safe enough place with himself that he can embrace that risk, in order to reap the rewards intimacy provides.

I was thinking last night that the two of you may be better classified as mad hatters, than simply BH/WW. The pain and trauma caused by SA/PA is real and extremely damaging to a marriage. In no way am I suggesting your A was justified, but I suspect your marriage may actually have two betrayed and two wayward spouses, but only one wayward is truly owning the full imapct of their betrayal. Your A makes it much easier to blame shift and sweep other problems under the rug.

Sorry for the full length book here. I just know confusing and painful this journey has been for me and I can only imagine that yours may be even more so.

Keeping you both in my prayers.

I was thinking last night that the two of you may be better classified as mad hatters, than simply BH/WW. The pain and trauma caused by SA/PA is real and extremely damaging to a marriage. In no way am I suggesting your A was justified, but I suspect your marriage may actually have two betrayed and two wayward spouses, but only one wayward is truly owning the full imapct of their betrayal. Your A makes it much easier to blame shift and sweep other problems under the rug.

I was thinking the EXACT. SAME. THING.

I was thinking last night that the two of you may be better classified as mad hatters, than simply BH/WW.

I think this is quite an overreaction, unless I am missing something. We all bring issues to the marriage, but infidelity is about betrayal -- lying, etc. How is this BS a wayward? Am I a wayward because I unknowingly did things (non-secret)that hurt our sexual relationship pre-dday?

I am sorry, I totally disagree, and am kind of offended by the suggestion.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 2:39 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

I was thinking last night that the two of you may be better classified as mad hatters, than simply BH/WW. The pain and trauma caused by SA/PA is real and extremely damaging to a marriage. In no way am I suggesting your A was justified, but I suspect your marriage may actually have two betrayed and two wayward spouses, but only one wayward is truly owning the full imapct of their betrayal. Your A makes it much easier to blame shift and sweep other problems under the rug.

Speaking as a BxW of a SA, I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree and have thought so from the beginning. I know full well the betrayal a spouse goes through when porn is used as a substitute for intimacy of any kind.

Bionicgal, maybe you missed this part.

While I knew that he watched porn (and we watched it together occasionally) and MB, he didn’t tell me that he was doing it nearly every day.

If a spouse is unaware of the frequency of something it can be a betrayal and a shock. What is important is if it fits the couples own definition. That is for them to decide. No one else's opinion really matters.

GR, is going to need time to come to term with things that affected her and her marriage. Things she may only be starting to see or understand, and unfortunately adding an affair into the mix complicates all of that.

The pain and trauma caused by SA/PA is real and extremely damaging to a marriage.

This is very true and spouses who have not experienced may not fully understand it.

Grace, these words stuck out to me. I'm just going to throw it out there and you do whatever you want with it.

Eventually I became wore down from worrying about it and trying to fix it, usually silently and alone because I felt it was my issue and my problem.

Made me think of codependency. Have you read Codependent No More by Melanie Beattie? I know your husband was reading about codependency.

I get confused because I guess I figured that would fix all our problems in the bedroom. It was such a large and looming source of sadness for me that, now that it’s no longer an issue, I don’t understand why I am still struggling.

In that book it mentions how addicts will get clean and the spouses are still unhappy and confused and why that is.

I’m working through that and trying to work on healing and letting go of the past.

I have forgiven him and I deeply appreciate where he stands now with porn and MB. I want to put it in the past and move forward.

I’m frustrated with myself and why the needle isn’t moving on this issue. I’m stuck here and I have been in IC but stopped because I felt stuck there too.

Everyone has their own view on forgiveness. I definitely have what I think works for me and it differs from what other people talk about on SI. I'm not sure you have processed much about how your husband's porn use affected you so how can you have forgiven him already? And if you have truly processed and accepted and forgiven would you be stuck and frustrated with yourself for not putting it in the past and moving forward?

I read a good book by Claudia Black about having a SA/PA spouse called Deceived and she talked about cheap forgiveness or forgiving too soon and what that does.

I was thinking last night that the two of you may be better classified as mad hatters, than simply BH/WW.

They are not Madhatters. Please do not try to create a situation that doesn't exist.

Lets get this thread back on topic.

Thank you.

Grace,

But I didn’t start out the right way with sharing my feelings and making sure I expressed them so he could understand them and not feel attacked.

^^^ this detail caught my eye. And when one feels attacked, one makes a reaction that then reinforces the original apprehension about sharing feelings.

ICR, as most often, my WW would 'share' her feelings in a way that did not involve actually sharing her feelings. She would not say 'I feel...', she would point out what was supposedly wrong, out of place, etc. about me, the M, the circumstance, or whatever.

So maybe the porn was a coping mechanism for your H in dealing with being attacked, and then attacked for reacting poorly in feeling attacked.

Deeply Scared,

My apologies. I thought the term mad hatters referred to couples where both had been betrayed. I guess I got that wrong! (Or SA/PA isn't considered infidelity here)

As the wife of a SA whose primary acting out involved secret porn use and years of gas lighting, blame shifting, etc, I identify myself as a BS. I read in GR's posts (and in some of BS's as well) many of the behaviors, emotions and patterns common amongst SA/PAs. And some of the experiences she shared matched my own very closely in some ways. I wanted to share parts of my story with her in case it was a topic she wanted to explore further.

My understanding was that SI worked hard not to put one person's pain or betrayal above anyone else's. Those who endured their WW spouse's PAs isn't given more compassion or thought to be more betrayed than someone enduring an EA. I felt safe here and that my pain as the partner of a PA was valued and honored. Perhaps I'm incorrect, in which case, I suppose I don't belong here at all.

GR - I'm sorry if my posts were off topic or disrespectful. I absolutely meant only to offer support.

[This message edited by Autumn22 at 4:11 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

I felt safe here and that my pain as the partner of a PA was valued and honored. Perhaps I'm incorrect, in which case, I suppose I don't belong here at all.

Autumn - you are absolutely valued and honored here and you do belong. What you need to remember is what one person may consider an affair/cheating/infidelity may not be the same as what another persons definition is. I probably am on the other end of the spectrum - I have had sex with someone other than my wife before DDay but I do not consider myself a WS at all - we had an open marriage. I am a BS because my WW had a LTA before we were open. It is the rules of our own individual marriages that define whether we are a BS or WS or not, not the rules of someone else's marriage. You most certainly do belong so please do not feel otherwise.

Autumn22.....

Please don't feel as if you offended anyone, you didn't

The term Madhatter is used when both spouses in their current relationship have cheated. Porn, whether people disagree or not, does not fall under that category (at least on SI it doesn't) otherwise half the members here would be Madhatters.

We try to limit it to physical and emotional affairs.

If you need further clarification, please feel free to PM me

Really interesting to read how this thread has evolved. GR you are really brave to bring your experience here.

I can totally relate to the sense that, now that things are moving in a better direction, that brings relief but also things are still not settled... The unease and resentment from the long years of struggle are still not resolved.

It took a while of reading "PA" in the discussion of evading intimacy of all kinds with a spouse, to realize it was meant to represent porn addict. I read it as passive aggressive, because that was the dynamic in my marriage. My husband used porn and would get himself off, but not excessively... Even so he was totally uninterested in sexual intimacy with me ans every attempt I made to address the issue, no matter how kindly or compassionately, was seen by him as conflict and so made the situation worse.

It was so hurtful and after many long years I just gave up trying. Hence my A. So, GR, I understand how that frustration develops.

In recovery my h and I both had to learn how to manage our anxiety around sex as we were getting back to it. No h b here. I am happy to say we are getting it together again but I sure do wish that we hadn't had to go through the fire to get here.

Well, my head is kind of swimming right now. There has been a lot of useful information put out here. Thank you for that. It seems like I at least have a direction to go and something to work with here. And to hear others that feel the same is like a huge wave of relief. I could almost cry to know there are some other people that have struggled with feeling distant during sex. Autumn22, thank you for sharing your story, it means a lot and helps. DixieD, I haven’t read that but I think BH has. I’ll look into it. MC_Jack, I am sure that I didn’t phrase things well and I think he often did feel like I was attacking his manhood.

I don’t consider us madhatters or myself a BS. BH and I have talked about this a lot. We agree that while not lying about it, he was keeping the quantity a secret. He owns that. Certainly it would have been useful information to have when I was struggling with our lack of intimacy. I do believe he did not know it was hurting us. I am positive about that. And as soon as he learned different, he acted different. I didn’t know it was hurting us either. We both didn’t know and we both have suffered. We are both sad that we don’t feel we’ve ever had an intimate, bonded sexual relationship.

On the other hand, I knew early on in my A that what I was doing was wrong. I actively hid it. Once questioned about it, I lied. My BH would not have lied to me had I directly questioned him. And had I demanded he stop I think he would have. When he demanded I stop my A, I went underground. The motivations and actions and understandings of hurt/right/wrong/ were totally different in these two scenarios.

I am getting a clearer understanding though that the fallout from porn in our marriage could be bigger than I realized. I don’t mean to give cheap forgiveness. I think I can forgive him while also acknowledging that it has hurt me/him/us and that we have work and healing to do in this area.

My WH's and my experience does not include porn use, so I may be out of line drawing any parallels between your experience and my own, however, I was so struck by how you describe the process of trying to communicate and fix something that was wrong in your marriage and my own experience. You describe how you tried to get your husband to understand that his inability to O inside of you made you feel bad. His reassurances and the lack of any change in that area of the marriage so:

This that you wrote below: (Sorry; don't know how to frame the words from posts as everyone does here)

"Eventually I became wore down from worrying about it and trying to fix it, usually silently and alone because I felt it was my issue and my problem. He seemed to confirm that with his repeated reassurances that I should stop worrying about it. I told him I needed to take a break from intercourse, that I would do anything and everything else but not intercourse. It was just too disappointing and depressing for me. That seemed to challenge and excite him and a few weeks later we were back to intercourse. I just gave up. And I say that with extreme remorse and sorrow. I’m really ashamed that I just gave up and I never talked to him again about how much it hurt. I thought I would just have to live with it and deal with disappointment in that area. I see now that I hurt our marriage so deeply by remaining silent, that I let myself down and him too."

I had spent so many years trying to explain to my Husband that his inability to fight through conflict with me, share his feelings and be affectionate was making our marriage vulnerable, leaving me lonely and unhappy. I begged him to go to Marriage counseling with me so that we could work on it. He told me he was ok with who he was and how he coped with emotion. I understood where it came from with a narcissistic, borderline mother and can remember the day that I finally said to myself, well, this is the man that you married, he does not want to change so you have what you have and that is it." I too "gave up." I too had become "wore down from worrying about it and trying to fix it." I too thought that I would just have to live with this "disappointment" and sadness.

While we do not have the same specific issue within our marriages, This post truly Sucked the wind out of me. The way in which we both dealt with our differing issues was absolutely, exactly the same. We tried and tried until we did not try any longer. Such a critical turning point in our marriages, huh?

I know we have different situations, but I just wanted you to know that I hear the pain and regret in this post. While the giving up on your part regarding the issue of sex (to me also about intimacy) ultimately led you outside your marriage, it was the lack of connectedness and being open to emotion (intimacy) that led my husband to go outside of the marriage. Similar journeys in a way. What to make of that, if there is anything, I don't know at the moment. All I know is that I am still routing for the two of you!

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 5:03 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

((Grace)) I just want to say that you and blakesteele both are owning your issues. Both of you want a better, more authentic marriage. Neither of you are afraid to face your own issues...I just want to say that I am in awe of this... Good luck on this journey.

Hi Gracerunner,

Glad to see you posting here. I think the support is priceless. I know I would not have gotten through all this without all the kind and compassionate people here.

Porn. Your thread had really brought a lot of memories and thought to me today.

It was a huge problem in our marriage. I hated it, it made me feel like less, especially when he would choose it over me. I tried over the years to make him understand how it made me feel. It made me feel like I was not enough, not pretty enough, sexy enough, just not enough for him.

He minimized my feelings, told me it meant nothing.

I remember the week after we got married, my mom had emergency surgery and I had to go to her, 2500 miles away. I remember lying in the bed alone, he didn't answer the phone. I remember trying to stop the images in my head of him masturbating to a picture of another woman. It hurts.

After dday #1, I was insistent that it stop, no more, it was triggering me and I really believed that it made him view sex as a shallow act without intimacy.

He promised, agreed. Well, after dday#2, he sent me a confession, he had never stopped. Had used it every day since dday #1 and lied.

I am sorry if this is a t/j, I just see now, in retrospect, it really was destructive. I think now that he really was addicted.

His confession about his 2nd infidelity read like a porn script, shallow, opportunity, no real feelings, just an act.

I wonder now if the porn affected how he viewed women, sex and the intimacy was too hard.

Not really making any sense here. Just wanted to reaffirm that it does make you feel like less, especially if it intrudes or replaces the specialness. If it affects you, hurts you, it is not good for your marriage.

Sorry for the ramble. Just my state of being at the moment.

For several years I was unable / did not care to have sex with fww. When trying to start things back up, there was no way it was going to work. It took a year at least, and it was all I in my head. I have yet to get up the courage to find out what is in mywifes head.

There is something there that's missing and I'm not sure if its just the meds she takes for BPD Type 2 or a direct result of her affair.

Yes, it sucks.

This is a great thread. Thank you Grace et al.

It has given me perspective on the following:

1. My wife has a huge anxiety problem which has always greatly affected our sex life. The book Passionate Marriage explained it to me, how anxiety or other emotional issues make it difficult for some women to haves an orgasm during intercourse while they can very easily and quickly MB (or be manually stimulated) to one. It might be in their head like the ED issue above.

2. That gave made me feel so damned inadequate as the picture hanging crookedly on the wall was more important than staying in the 'moment'.

3. I turned to porn at times to soothe and experience in fantasy what I could not get in reality.

4. M suffered of course as a result of the porn use.

5. Negative cycle created.

Also my WW told me at great length how the OM really preferred to just MB. That the sex was minimal, and that OM preferred that my WW just lay on the bed so he could then just jack off for as long as he wanted and then cum on her. She said how humiliating it was. I always thought that she was bullshit minimizing. So maybe the OM had some other major issues. The other BW never mentioned anything, and I never told her these details. She was very upset obviously, but now I wonder if she thought that her H was acting better sexually with my WW than he was at home...kind of an extra betrayal that was assumed.

Anyways, thanks for this thread. It gave me a lot to thinks about. Thanks for opening up Grace.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:35 PM, March 7th (Friday)]