SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

we have had some positive signs.

my wife thinks we should talk about the affairs every other night until we finish the discussions. having a schedule made BY HER was a huge plus!

then she wasnt feeling very well (shes had some health problems since her procedure - shortness of breath, dizzy spells, headaches, etc) and i offered her the opportunity to move the night back and start the next night. she refused and said she had delayed and procrastinated enough and that it was time to get everything out that i needed to help me heal. her saying this was another HUGE plus. it made me feel that she "got it". it gave me massive amounts of hope"

we started at the "beginning". we agreed that we work chronological but that when we hit a person that she behaved inappropriately with that we stay on that person until we "finish" them. so in a sense it goes chronological but also breaks into detailing specific people as we go.

some of the stuff that we discussed is/was "small potatos" compared to the crap cake that came later but to me it was important to start from the beginning, to find out everything, and then to continue onwards to the end.

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PERSON I

my wife and i had met in 2005. within a few weeks of meeting she went to see a guy friend (who she had a physical relationship with prior to meeting me) and stayed overnight in a hotel room with him (says nothing happened). it wasnt a huge deal because we had just met and certainly werent "exclusive" at this point. but months later she sent him an email that could be interpreted several ways and semi nude photos. at that point my wife and i were about to move in together. i got very angry and found this completely inappropriate, my wife agreed to NC at the time.

she violated NC

11/07 - when she sent an email to him asking for tickets to a show. at the time she lied to me, gaslit me, tried to justify what she did, and then admitted it was wrong. the guy reacted to the email with a "holy sh1t, you are married! we shouldnt be talking anymore. you need to concentrate on your husband and child."

12/09 - saw a friend of the guys and talked to him about the guy

05/11 - on a trip to America she saw a different friend and asked about the guy again

02/13 - saw the first friend again, asked about the guy again, and then went and shared a few beers with the friend (incidently going to the club where her then current LTA guy worked).

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PERSON II

in early 2011 my wife promoted a few bands. she flew to germany to watch a show of a band she was interested in, talked to a guy in the band a few hours, got some demos, and came back home.

03/11 - she went back to germany, went to their studio, got some more demos, and came back home. they began to talk on phone. she told him personal details and opened a massive window into our relationship. at one point she told him "ich mag dich" which in german (usually a very precise language except in the cases of relationships when it becomes very vague) means anything in between "i like you" to "i like you and want more with you" to "i want you". he took it as more than a "i like you" and told her she was "cute". it didnt go any further than this.

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PERSON III

1999-2000 - my wife had a friend who was in a band, obviously long before we met. he had a gf but my wife had a crush on him that everyone noticed - it was sort of a running joke between everyone in the band, him, and my wife. but nothing occured.

2004/2005 - my wife lost contact with him when she moved out of italy.

2009 - my wife saw him on a trip to italy and they exchanged phone numbers. they periodically talked on the phone and sent each other texts. sometimes there was joking about sex but never specifically about "them" having sex and never explicit stuff, just general (and inappropriate) banter. i knew about him but obviously she lied via ommission by not telling me she was joking about sex and other inappropriate conversations.

2010 - the banter with the guy increased but still never got explicit. he is also a psychologist and my wife got him to come by the family business to see our daughter (who was having a tough time in school). she asked me beforehand but again misrespresented her relationship with this guy (portraying it as completely innocent).

2011-2013 - my wife sees him at a few shows, goes to some rehearsals, goes to a bar for some beers with him, they talk more about personal lives and she continues providing him with personal details and a window into our marriage. a few times during these talks he tells her that he is having an affair (affairs??) and cheating on his wife. my wife replies "what about having one with me". she says it was a "joke". obviously i fail to see the humor.

my wife doesnt think she sent him nude pictures but she cant be positive. we have not finished discussing him.

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we spent about 2-3 hours discussing this.

she was much better about being forthcoming with information, admitting and stating that what she did was wrong, that she can see why it was so inappropriate and wrong to do this stuff NOW, and that it wont ever happen again. i was better about not losing my temper when i hear this stuff. i think i got "cold" in how i was talking with her but i didnt wind up screaming. so thats a plus. evidently we are learning how to communicate better with each other.

tonight we "get" to continue the conversation.

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then ... yesterday i was on the way home from work and on the tram. a guy got on the tram who had an inappropriate relationship with my wife.

they used to go together to clubs at night along with some of her girlfriends. at one point he had showed her a video of ... all things ... his maid masturbating him with her feet. many times he tried to flirt with her but she wasnt interested in him. when she first became interested in LTA guy he got very mad and tried to prevent the relationship from forming while telling her that he wanted to be "more than friends". they argued about this guy and other things, the arguements eventually tanked their "friendship", and contact was severed by my wife.

my wife saw him in late 2012 on the street and when he walked up to her she turned her back on him so he walked away without talking to her.

i knew this guy. he even came over to our house once. he was always uncomfortable around me and i never knew why. he also used to have this smug and arrogant attitude towards me and i never knew why.

so yesterday i see him on the tram.

he walks over to me and says "hi". i look in his eyes and see that same smug little look - like he knows something i dont and that it makes him feel powerful. i have to admit that i wanted to hurt him bad. i have had lots of training in martial arts and fighting and i KNOW i could have snapped multiple bones in his body and no one on that tram could have stopped me. it was tempting.

instead i stood up, looked him in his eyes, and told him "you better get the F off the tram at the next stop or i kick your F'ing ass".

he says "why do you want to talk to me that way".

i told him "my wife told me everything. i know it all. i know about the video of the maid masturbating you with her feet. i know you wanted to be more than friends with her. she has told me everything and there are no more secrets. you better get off the F'ing tram at the next stop i beat you so F'ing badly that you wish for the rest of your life you get off the tram."

when i mentioed the maid video and "more than friends" he could tell i was hyped on adrenaline and was completely serious. that smug little look disappeared really quickly and was replaced by fear. i think he realized that sh1t had gotten really serious and really fast, it wasnt some stupid little game anymore.

he turned towards the door without a word and waited to get off. when he turned his back to me i have to admit i was tempted to give him a serious kick in the back to send him flying out the doors when they opened. i resisted that urge too. i pointed at the doors and said "go".

i doubt most of the tram understood most of what we said (it was in english) but they understood the gist. when he got off the tram at least half of the tram pointed at him and started laughing at him. he stood there humiliated as we drove off.

i saw him through the window walk across the road and start walking down the street. i was more hyped on adrenaline at that moment than i had been on many combat operations i had been on. i was seriously tempted to get off at the next stop and walk back to him and beat him like a drum on the sidewalk. i resisted that urge too.

i came home feeling pretty empowered. it felt nice to FINALLY have all the facts BEFORE a situation occured than after. before it was always afterwards.

for instance, i find out LATER that LTA guy wasnt just a friend but LTA guy ... after i say its okay for him to spend the night at the house when im out of town. i find out LATER that the "friend" of my wifes i met was actually ONS guy #1.

to have all the facts BEFORE i see the guy was so empowering. it made me feel so much better because one of the worst things has always been "not knowing anything" and finally i am beginning to feel that i do know most things. its a huge mental difference.

it was exceedingly nice to let this guy i knew about his bullsh1t, that my wife HAD finally been honest with me, to resist the urge to break multiple bones in his body, and to utterly humiliate him.

so all in all yesterday was out F'ing standing!

wow william! I'm proud of you. Proud of both of you. You are both getting your shit together. I don't now how you could keep it together in that situation on the tram. I may have very well lost it. I'm sure that must have felt like a major release afterwards. I'm guessing kinda like shaking an 800lbs gorilla of your back? And to know in the end gave you the power. That's what you have been looking for.

Positive signs from the Mrs. Tell her I approve and to keep it up. Sounds like you are helping each other more and more. She's trying to help you heal and in doing so she's helping herself heal. I know it's still hard and terrifying for both of you. But you are both making progress,

I'm very happy to hear it.

Hopefully lara's health returns to normal soon.

Keeping all 3 of you in my thoughts.

yop

thanks :)

one of the worst parts since D-Day 1 was the realization that that many people were behaving very inappropriately with my wife (and she with them) and while they all knew all about me and our marriage i knew only lies (either direct lies, omission, minimization, concealment, etc) about them.

that she would tell me about these people but (obviously) not the truth. that some of these people were brought to our house or i was introduced to them or i saw them around. always in ignorance of what was really going on while they knew the whole time and were probably revelling in the knowledge they were doing crap with her and i was a clueless bast@rd.

having the balance of power come back where i DO have information, where i know enough to be able to make an intelligent decision, and where im not basically this clueless guy was a HUGE feeling.

that i know. that i have access to the information now. that my wife FINALLY told me the truth about him. that all made me feel very empowered in dealing with him.

not beating him like a drum - that was more difficult.

to use an analogy:

- we have been trapped in a limbo dungeon because the full truth hasnt come out yet.

- i have the option to leave the dungeon at anytime but i can only do so without her.

- the only way for us to leave this dungeon together is for her to finally tell me everything, completely and without holding back.

- the only reason we are still in this dungeon is because she hasnt told everything yet.

i think she had gotten that on a theoretical level in her mind but i think a few weeks ago when i exploded at her is when she got it in her heart. i think the fact that i told her - i had every reason to leave already, each one of these guys from ONS 1 onwards was sufficient grounds to leave and i didnt have to search for a reason to leave, i already had LOTS of reasons to leave. but what i was flailing for was a reason to stay and what she was failing to give me was a reason to stay. i think that was when the full "ahhh" moment arrived for her.

only time will tell.

How many more d-days will it take for you to leave the 'dungeon'?

at this point i "think" the only things left are all the details.

the list she produced had one person she had "forgotten" but since she did the same thing with roughly 14 other people (exchanged nude pics) it seems "small" in comparison and i guess i can understand forgetting him amongst such a crowd.

but what she hasnt really done is provided clear and accurate details about most of the people and what exactly she did. she has for some but not all of them.

a broad overview, yes. details - no.

at this point

- another D-Day would have me leaving. something really major that was hidden - yes. id go.

- more trickle truth or delaying telling the details - yes. id go.

in fact, ive just about reached the limit. ive explained to her that im not going to dig for stuff, ask for details, try to pull facts out, etc.

its HER JOB to actively work to provide the facts and truth to me, that i shouldnt have to ask for anything anymore and wont be doing so anymore, but rather she should be trying as hard as possible to get as much information to me as quickly as she can.

that im tired of it all. that its been 10 months since D-Day 1 and i still dont have all the facts and the only reason that i dont have all the facts is because she resists providing them or procrastinates.

that this situation is intolerable for me and unacceptable. that i will not just sit around as she continues to delay but that i will leave if it continues. that if she wants me to stay than she had better start providing me with a reason to stay - and a HUGE part of that reason is finally getting the FULL truth.

at this point the trust curency is very low and more delay just eats it up and its not going to be replenished until she finally tells me everything.

i honestly think she thought that providing an overview of each person was enough. from my perspective thats a nice start but i want the dots connected too.

thats at a minimum in addition to the other things she is supposed to be doing.

so yeah, ive reached a point where even significant delays would be enough to leave. at this point, as i told her, im looking for a reason to stay.

but what she hasnt really done is provided clear and accurate details about most of the people and what exactly she did. she has for some but not all of them.

a broad overview, yes. details - no.

at this point

- another D-Day would have me leaving. something really major that was hidden - yes. id go.

- more trickle truth or delaying telling the details - yes. id go.

Continuing to hope for your sake that she continues every other night and gets all this out so that the 3 of you can move on.

we had another discussion last night

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person IV

a musician from norway that my wife knew before we had met. they told each other that they found the other attractive and they had planned to meet at some concerts. possibly she sent him nude photos or had flirting talks but cant remember (it was 2004 or 2005).

they continued chatting and talking throughout our entire relationship and marriage. she mentioned him to me early in 2006 but omitted the finding each other attractive, possibility of nude photos exchanged, etc parts of it. my wife discussed marital details with him.

in 2012 she sent a photo of the tattoo on her stomach, her boobs were covered by her shirt. she may have sent nude photos or flirted with him at this point but cant remember.

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Person V

1997 or 1998 met on a music group channel/forum.

1998 – they chatted ( sexual talk, him sending videos and photos of him nude or masturbating and miki sending nude photos, as well as her watching him masturbate while they were on cams) for a few months.

1999- 2003 – irregular contact. My wife in other relationships and nothing with him.

2004 – my wife drove to see him, they go to a hotel, she watches him masturbate.

2004-2005 – they lose touch. I met my wife in 2005.

Spring 2011 – (possibly late 2010) my wife finds him on facebook and adds him. They exchange phone numbers and were in irregular contact – mostly about foods and his health issues. When they meet he was having a sexual relationship with a married woman which my wife felt was “wrong”. My wife opens a window into our marriage to him and discusses it with him in some detail.

11/2011- my wife tries to get him job as web designer for an application she is also working on.

Spring 2012 – inappropriate relationship resumes. He asked for a photo, my wife sent one of her clothed, he said he wanted nudes, she said “okay” and started to send them irregularly to “make him feel better”. Felt sending pics took away her dignity but she continued to do so. Worried about our daughter at some point in this but chose not to stop but never had even a thought about her marriage or me. At some point my wife made a joke about seeing a sex video of him, he said “of girl giving him a bj, my wife says “sure”, later he says he couldn’t make it and was sorry but the camera was too obvious, my wife says she “wasn’t serious” about wanting the video”.

06/12 – he comes to Milan for a concert. My wife meets him outside our house, he drives them to her family business, come back to stadium, he goes to concert. My wife told me about him then before she went outside to see him but obviously lied about the extent and nature of the relationship with him.

Fall 2012 – my wife discusses LTA guy with him and wants advice on how to get LTA guy phone number. he told my wide not to do because of marriage and daughter but my wife said she didn’t care. He suggested patience but my wife said that was not acceptable. Later she told him she got the number. Its possible she told him about relationship with LTA guy and discussed details of that relationship with him but she isnt sure. She cant remember telling him she broke up with LTA guy and cant remember telling him that she got back with me.

Spring 2013 – inappropriate relationship ends.

06/2013 – last phone and contact between them ends at this time or slightly before. D-Day 1 took place around this time.

08/13 – two months after D-Day 1 my wife closes her facebook account and opens a new one. She re-adds this guy to her new account.

01/14 – second facebook account closed.

We didn’t finish discussing him.

When did she delete his phone number? Was she in contact with him after D-Day (how did he find her on facebook with the settings she used when she says no contact after june)? How did the inappropriate relationship end? Was contact continued after it ended and between june? Were the photos exchanged starting in spring discussed in summer of 2012? Why did my wife agree to meet him outside our house and take him to the family business? Why didn’t my wife tell me about him until her “full and complete list”?

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prior to the conversation my wife wanted to postpone it. she felt sick and like she might vomit. i got very upset. i feel ive waited a LONG time for the truth and my patience for waiting is pretty well exhausted. so the conversation started off very badly with hostility from both sides (her feeling im being unreasonable and my feeling that another delay isnt acceptable). this hostility remained throughout the conversation.

i was also upset that my wife apparently hadnt prepared for the discussion. she basically wanted to sit down and ask me "who do you want to talk about" whereas i feel these discussions are vital to our marriage and that she should treat them as every bit as important as a business meeting (preparing for it, outlining, etc). she felt this wasnt fair because she had thought i would control the topic as we go. we need to resolve this for the future.

it took from 2230 to 0130 to get this many facts out because of the bickering back and forth while we discussed the issues.

i felt very betrayed because responses to previous questions were yet again contradicted.

- that yet again in response to "who knew about your affair with LTA guy" another name popped out.

- that yet again in response to "which of these guys had come to our house or family business" another name popped out

- that yet again in response to "when did the inappropriate behavior and lying first start" the answer has changed to now include pretty cover throughout our entire relationship and marriage (albeit not exchanging nude photos or having sex with them but more lying to me about the nature of relationships with people and continuing contact with people she had a sexual natured relationship with while we were married even if the nature of their relationship changed during most - or all - or our marriage. to me being in contact with them is "inappropriate" and concealing the extent of the prior relationship is lying while to her the inappropriate was sending photos, flirting, or sexual activity).

we didnt really finish either of the two people we discussed but the bulk of the work with them is done. i guess tomorrow night we finish them and then go onwards.

we went to bed angry at each other and argued for a little while then went to sleep. when i woke up this morning my wife was still upset and decided she didnt want to limit talking with me to basic essentials and then left for work. we plan on talking about why we are both angry at the other tonight.

all in all this session didnt go very well at all.

and the roller coaster rolls on. Ideally you guys should have someone mediate some of this between the two of you. But if I remember correctly I don't think MC is an option (same as IC)?

i dont know if it would really help because what i do need is for someone to be able to sit down and give reasonably factual and accurate accounts.

i get this incredibly muddled account full of irrelevant people that frankly have no real bearing on the story or what happened.

finding out the backstory on a guy that she was sending nude pics to during our marriage, i get

"me & two of my friends went to see a show at x place with a dj in 2004 or maybe 2005. i cant remember which year but i can think about it. you know guy ABC that i mentioned once 6 years ago. do you remember? he was the dj that night there. it was at a small club. lots of people were there though. anyway. we go to the show. i stay at a hotel with my friends. the next day they all drive back to home but i dont. i drive to go see the guy we are talking about...."

relevant

in 2004 i drove to see this guy. i cant remember exactly what happened there but i know that i watched him masturbate at one point.

the only exaggeration in this is that i pared down what im being told lest it run page after page.

but ultimately the only important part is that she had a sexual relationship with him in the past and despite knowing it was wrong to do so ... she added him back into her life, lied to me about her past relationship with him, restarted a sexual relationship with him (albeit "only" 6-8 photos deciding that he was more important to her than her marriage, me, her daughter, or her dignity and self respect) in spring 2012, saw him in summer 2012 for a few minutes near OUR house directly lying to me again about her previous and current relationship with him, and ended it with him about spring 2013.

it just takes 2 hours to get these basic facts out. included in the frustration factor is her continuing to try to redefine "lying".

[This message edited by william at 7:39 AM, April 20th (Sunday)]

I'm just now reading your story. Sounds very much like my SAWH's actions. Have you guys considered her seeing someone to see if she is a SA or has another mental issue? To me, this level just screams something more.

i think there is more, a serious problem underlying it all. idk what it is.

but yes, we do plan on doing so.

i think its self esteem related as well. she traded her dignity, sex, etc for approval ---- with the most F'ed up people possible ---- thinking she was "helping them" ---- which then dragged her down to feeling below them ---- which then increased the guilt and shame while decreasing her self esteem ---- so she tries to find someone else to boost her and the cycle continued.

all of which i find very perplexing to say the least.

How are things going with the william family lately? W feeling better? Things still progressing and moving forward?

things seem to be going well. we didnt have a discussion last night, we will do it tonight (we had to get up very early this am).

otherwise, things seem like they are going well. ive not crashed for a few days and she is still doing all the right things.

i think she is starting to understand what is meant by triggers now and to understand how brutal the downward spiral can be when they hit. shes getting better at spotting them and also actively avoiding putting me in positions where im surrounded by them.

i suspect my stress level will increase tonight as we begin to go over more of the people and some of the ones due for discussion are pretty significant in terms of her affairs.

Still promising that she may be starting to "get it" I have plenty of hope for you guys.

Hopefully not more IDK/ICR tonight. Keep hanging in there and staying strong my friend. I will be thinking of you and that daughter of yours tonight. Let us know how it goes for you.

I think there are also issues as to your WS's lifestyle/job/traveling that may throw wrenches into R, given her poor boundaries..

Learning better boundaries and implementing them will be ongoing and lifelong..Is it possible for her to switch jobs/ careers so she will have less temptation or for you to travel with her more?

[This message edited by doggiediva at 9:28 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

((((william))))

person vi

she met him in 1998. he was in a band she liked. they became friends around 2003. in 2004 or so they lost touch. in 2008 and 2009 they met at a show and kept in sporadic touch. in 2011 they began to chat more. in 2012 both my wife and he lost a parent, they talked about that often together. she saw him several times in the club where her LTA guy worked (before and during the affair). most of their conversations were pretty short and mostly hi, how are you, and bye types. however, he also gets the somewhat standard story from my wife that shes very unhappy in marriage.

around 2011 he started asking my wife to do stuff with him. go to shows, go listen to music at the studio at his house, etc. my wife rarely did. she saw it as friends.

in 2012 he was dj at a show. she came to say hi and later to say bye. he told her it was a shame to leave because if she stayed they could "make out" (in italian "french kiss" later). my wife is surprised, declines, and leaves.

she sees him a few more times and they continue to chat in brief talks. her friends tell her they think he is interested in "more" than being friends. she isnt sure but thinks maybe so.

new years 2012/2013 he calls her, invites her to new years eve party. my wife declines.

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we are working chronologically on people. thus the "worst" are still to come.

my wife didnt see THEN how telling him her marriage was bad could have made him see that she was looking outside of it.

my wife didnt see THEN that asking him to go places with her or him asking her could be considered as a "date" which by her waffling made him feel she might be interested.

my wife didnt see THEN that staying in contact with him after the "making out" remark and without addressing it would be seen as a sign to being open to it.

i guess i shouldnt be surprised anymore but i still am ... my wife's boundaries really sucked. her behavior made people feel she was open to their advances. she didnt know how to shut off inappropriate conversations before they happened or in such a way that they didnt happen again.

but, this one wasnt as bad as it could have been and as bad as they get later so the conversation didnt spiral out of control or get really negative.

[This message edited by william at 5:41 AM, April 24th (Thursday)]

still here. thanks for the update william

thinking of you william. haven't heard from you in a bit. Bumping you up. Things still progressing forward? Able to go over the other details you need? How is W feeling a few weeks after her surgeries? Hope they didn't find anything else. And of course how are you doing?

ive got the last two talk night results to post. ive just been busy with other things the last few days. ill try to get to it tomorrow.

but im still alive and kicking