SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

slight t/j:

I didn't finish my MA 15 years ago because that would have involved leaving him in charge of the kids for a week while I finished my paper at the library. They would have starved to death, wore dirty clothes to school and went to bed at God knows when.

sorry end t/j

but I know whereof you speak and I'm so sorry you're going through this.

What i don't get: why do some waywards NOT realize what TG said in that those boundaries should be self-imposed, not BS impose? Do they realize that the boundaries created by the person keeping themselves safe for their own sake and others that there is no chance to be resentful?

I can't tell you how many times I've heard - "if you're going to react like this I'm not going to tell you." Or, "see I'm telling you," - SOOOO missing the point.

[This message edited by rachelc at 3:20 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

((((Jrazz))))

(((Jrazz)))

I can so identify with your posts. From the dynamic of hurting for my exWH because of his FOO (Oh, I can SHOW him how to love! Co-de much?) to the parent/child unhealthy dynamic (complete with him constantly seeking validation/approval) to the not wanting to divorce because I somehow needed to protect my kid from him. Except, mine was abusive and manipulative on top of all that.

It totally sucks.

I have no advice. You'll get there when you get there. (I can tell you this about myself though. I remember the detachment and the mourning that came after. I mourned the loss of my marriage before it was even over, so by the end, I was truly done. No residual anything. I was afraid of the unknown, but I was over him completely.) I also want to echo what a previous poster said- what if this is the best CRazz can do? Are you willing to accept this as his best?

He constructs his own reality around him as he goes, and sees himself exactly how he wants to.

I call this type of person a "shape shifter" and they can never be trusted to be consistent in their actions.

Leaving a 4 y/o alone for ANY amount of time is completely unacceptable.

He's waving some VERY serious red flags:

1) No empathy (a HUGE red flag)

2) It's all about him

3) No boundaries and an inability to recognize and respect YOURS

4) manipulative

5) charming

6) lies easily

7) neglectful of your child

Those are really serious red flags, I'm sorry.

I'm wondering if he's telling you of his plans to leave your DD alone so that it becomes YOUR fault (in his mind), if anything happens?

He told her in the hopes that she would do something about it because he really would rather be in the garage than spending time with his kid. He was really hoping she would take this off his hands.

He told her in the hopes that she would do something about it because he really would rather be in the garage than spending time with his kid. He was really hoping she would take this off his hands.

*sigh* You're right. Maybe. A lot of people who share the same red flags with Crazz just think completely differently than normal people and trying to make sense of their actions will only make a normal person nuts.

Jrazz,

Can you see yourself living like this for the rest of your life?

In spending time down in I Can Relate, I've picked up a few things I'd like to share with you:

You didn't cause it and you can't fix it.

Don't

Even

Think

About

Changing

Him/Her

And the most important one, when crazy making is going on:

Jrazz knows the truth.

I am curious as to how Crazz was parented when he was younger. Depending on how he was parented, maybe this was not such a crazy suggestion on his end.

(((Jrazz)))

A looong time ago, in my first M, I was cooking dinner one day. Suddenly, I heard my XW SCREAMING my name. I dropped what I was doing and ran out the front door figuring one of the kids had been hurt,

I was right. My two yo son had gone face first onto the driveway and was bleeding profusely from the mouth and nose screaming for his mommy. She was holding him by the hair at arms length to keep the blood from getting on her bikini. After all, you can't tan in a bloodstained bikini right? Impressed the neighbors so much that they volunteered to testify at the custody(divorce) trial.

My point is, I was right there and couldn't protect him from her. I did win custody and she became an EOW mother. Every time I had to let him go, I prayed that he would be returned to me safely. For the most part, it worked.

I was able to provide him a safe environment when he was with me. A stable environment. I wanted him to have a chance to see what a *normal* family was. Even if it was just the two of us.

Would you rather your daughter was from a *broken* home or living in one?

I'm sorry you have come to this point. Maybe he will make the changes you need to feel safe. Only you can decide.

Sending strength

Depending on how he was parented, maybe this was not such a crazy suggestion on his end.

Ding ding ding!!!! His father is Peter Pannier than Peter Pan. With a potty mouth. You were branded stupid if you cared about things like sobriety or safety. When Crazz took up cycling his dad called it "That fa**oty bike crap."

He has a lifetime of emotional abuse and shitty paternal examples to deal with. It's part of what makes me as sorry for him as angry at him. He fakes normalcy as hard as he can, but his upbringing keeps reaching out from inside.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:03 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]

She was holding him by the hair at arms length to keep the blood from getting on her bikini.

Wow, I've heard of some cold blooded bitches but that takes the taco. I'm so sorry. My heart hurts just reading that.

I'm late to this game, but this comment you made jumped out at me Jrazz:

He was always the type of person where if you tell him not to do something, he is compelled to do it just to defy you. He does not appreciate rules, instructions, etc.

His behavior around women shouldn't be based on you telling him how to behave. Your role is not meant to be mother or jailer. Rather than you fighting with him over his behavior and choices, the two of you really ought to be on the same page, fighting together.

As in, he needs to come the fuck around to sensible decisions on his own. I'm surprised his IC isn't helping him come to those boundaries and healthy behaviors from his own desire. His motivation should be much deeper and more intrinsic than "because my wife says so."

Jrazz, reading through this thread I feel like I am reading about a man who is so completely ungounded in that he is unable to experience intimacy and vulnerability. His snarky behavior reminds me of my H's former ways. He has said many times that he knew then that he was being a total jerk but could not apologize. He was angry and had no real foundation. I am of the firm belief that unless and until one can allow themself to embrace vulnerability with their partner the rest of their existence is spent scrounging for bits and pieces to fill that void. In that process the walls they throw up unconsciously present themselves in many different ways: ambivalence, selfishness, impatience etc.

My H also grew up with more than his fair share of sh*try parenting and FOO issues. I too have deep compassion for him.

I'm sorry to hear all of this is happening, Jrazz. It sounds like there are some definite red flags - willingness to leave Vrazz alone, the boundaries breach that happened, other things. Has accountability been an ongoing struggle? Has he tried before to leave Vrazz unsupervised, or is this something he's suddenly doing? I find that to be very concerning either way.

(((Jrazz)))

He has a lifetime of emotional abuse and shitty paternal examples to deal with. It's part of what makes me as sorry for him as angry at him. He fakes normalcy as hard as he can, but his upbringing keeps reaching out from inside.

At what point does his FOO end and his personal responsibility/accountability kick in- in your mind? I'm not saying that to be a bitch. I know that some behavior is entrenched, but repeating the cycle with his own daughter seems acceptable to him. You are parenting both people in your family. Isn't that exhausting?

If he is not invested in healing/changing the FOO patterns and outcome for his precious daughter, you have to come to acceptance of that. You can analyze it and reanalyze it- but you won't be able to find a palatable way to digest his endangering his child because he was endangered.

That is where the 'tough shit' rubber meets the empathy road in my book. Putting yourself above a toddler that needs your care and attention is criminal. His brokenness loses every time to your child's safety. Period.

Would he follow through with the garage/house daycare plan or is he playing emotional chicken with you to get you to engage in the same co-dependent song and dance? idk. But it cruel and sick to screw with you like that at best, and at worst- scary as hell that he thinks that is acceptable parenting.

I hope for your daughters sake that he can get help. She deserves more, as do you.

My H's a FOO issues have nearly ruined our marriage. I stepped into major crazy and disfunction when I married my H. On the surface his family appeared to have it all together but inside the house it was dysfunctional. His father is a narcissistic cheater. His mother used my H as her emotional partner and it screwed him up. They were partners and when I came along I was the OW to her. The kids learned to live the family lie and compartmentalize very early. There was physical and emotional abuse. I totally missed everything until the wedding rehearsal when her fangs came out. It went down hill from there. After we married my H continued to get his emotional support from his mother. She prompted and he supplied her with enough info (mostly false) about our marriage that my inlaws could barely tolerate me. We had two sweet children that they have ignored all of their lives.

I tell you this because about 18 years ago I had enough and we went to MC. The therapist cut to the chase nearly immediately. My H had never bonded with me emotionally because he already had his emotional wife, his mother. The weird result was he had put me into his spoiler mother role. He saw me as controlling and mothering even though that was never the case. He spent our first 18 years acting like a teenager trying to get out from under my control, when he really should have been leaving his mother's control. Because he projected that role onto me he almost went through with leaving me because that is what teenage boys are supposed to do when they grow up, leave their mothers.

The therapist told my H that he had to emotionally divorce his parents and severely limit contact. He actually strongly advised no contact because he told my H that he was cheating with his mother. Talk about a screwed up mess. He did that and as long as there was no contact, we did well. The demons resurfaced 4 years ago when once again, unknown to me, my H started to resent me as his mothering figure when his own mother died suddenly. Less than a year later he found a new emotional partner and his A was born.

If the therapist told your H to stay away from his family, there could be a very good, deep reason. Trust me, I know how it feels to be put into the blender where you are accused of being the uncool, controlling authority figure when they really need to grow out of their arrested development.

At what point does his FOO end and his personal responsibility/accountability kick in- in your mind? I'm not saying that to be a bitch. I know that some behavior is entrenched, but repeating the cycle with his own daughter seems acceptable to him. You are parenting both people in your family. Isn't that exhausting?

Gently, this is where I was going but Jrazz didn't answer my last question in my last post. My question was are you willing to accept this as his best?

If the answer is yes, then you're parenting both your daughter and him. If this is his best then the dynamic that exists doesn't need to change because you're accepting it, therefore, the status quo remains.

If the answer is no, then he has to learn to take personal responsibility despite his FOO. He has to take responsibility for his marriage and the natural boundaries that come with marriage. For parenting his child well despite his shitty childhood. For learning to be a partner, not a child.

OR, you two go separate ways.

A lot of people, a lot of SIers even, have had shitty childhoods. My IC likened my childhood to a "war zone" - her words. Top that off with my exWH. Do I have issues? Yep. You can ask my friends, my SO. I have difficulties with intimacy, both emotional and physical. I have issues making myself vulnerable, which sometimes inhibits proper communication even though I'm fairly articulate. I'm indecisive. I can be conflict avoidant. A people pleaser. A fixer. I internalize when I should let my feelings out somehow, so I have crappy coping skills (hello ulcers!) I've had to both find and LEARN how to use my own voice.

But I know those issues are there. I own them. I work really hard to fix them. Sometimes I fail, but I own it. And even though I had a shit childhood, I understand that that doesn't change my present circumstances. I still have to carry on. I still have a child to parent who has his own behavioral and emotional issues to contend with. I still have a job to do. I still have to take responsibility for myself and my child. I still have to be a grown up.

It's time for Peter Pan to grow up.

(((((((((((((((JRazz))))))))))))))))))

regarding the parenting thing. My husband also suffers from lack of good role models. But in his day, they were probably good. It's how every Dad treated their kids on the farm - wait for them to get old enough to work.

I went to Alaska for 5 days to visit my Mom and hubby took those days off to stay with the kids. When I got home the basement was finished. I said what the hell did you do with the kids? He said when he heard crying he went upstairs. WTF? This was the role model he witnessed. Taking care of kids is not work and work always has to be done. I was furious. I was resentful. I didn't have the greatest role model parents either but at some point you rise above that and DO KIDS RIGHT!

I had to accept that this was all he could do. He is not a natural parent.I made sure I was in charge all the time. Co-dependent, I don't know. But I certainly wasn't going to put my kids' lives at risk.

I'm not sure why people are clueless about what children need. I think it involves seeing the big picture. But mostly it involves having priorities.

If adults don't have their priorities figured out, they're doomed. And other people get hurt. Does Crazz have his priiorities straight?

My question was are you willing to accept this as his best?

Sorry for not addressing this, abby. I read everything but I sometimes respond in my head instead of on the thread.

I'm not willing to live with that. A good friend put it into amazing perspective last night. I dated Crazz. He was great - his family was a pack of assholes. I thought we could work past that together even though he wasn't exactly standing up for me, so I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz.

I had never looked at it like that before, but it makes sense that it's what I'm doing. It's also not healthy or ok.

Just muddling through it all right now. I can't tell you all what it means to be able to get all my thoughts out here. I promise that even if I don't respond to specific questions, I take each of them to heart because I really do want to make good choices here.

Thank you.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 9:12 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]

I'm not sure why people are clueless about what children need. I think it involves seeing the big picture.

Isn't that the truth!

Looking at it from this perspective, you can almost immediately tell who's a marathon parent and who's a sprinter. Can they see life more than two inches in front of their face?

Really well put, rc.

I dated Crazz. He was great - his pamily was a pack of assholes. I thought we could work past that together even though he wasn't exactly standing up for me, so I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz.

Oh, BTDT. My advice now for anyone starting out is look at your partners family closely and if they are assholes -- run away as fast as you can. It usually gets worse instead of better.

I agree with redrock, as hard as it is to hear. The rubber has to hit the road at some point. You must be exhausted from the overwhelming frustration of playing the same dance. I know I was.

I'm also an analyzer by nature and that's where the following comes from.

The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents.

That's a quote from Dr. Lynne Namka's article on passive aggressiveness. It's a great article btw.

Right now, you are Crazz's adversary. As long as you have ANY expectations and demands, he will resist, if/until he is self-aware enough to see it and want to change. And he is getting something out of this behaviour, even sub-consciously, or he wouldn't be doing it.

I remember right before my husband's affair his work adversary quit and he was aware enough to say to me -- 'What am I going to do now? I need an enemy'. Guess who was unlucky enough to be promoted into that vacated spot when one big target was now gone? That's when my life got more hellish.

You mentioned his IC said he should not have contact with his father and sister and you thought that was harsh. Sometimes toxic people have to go, and that's fine. But if someone is p/a and you remove people who they normally would play out their p/a with, the pool gets smaller. You are still in the pool Jrazz. If he hasn't worked through the stuff that lead to the p/a behavior, often tied in with this mother, and it doesn't sound like he has -- simply removing them from his life doesn't mean those behaviors disappear. Doesn't sound like his IC is helping him with that. And you can't either.

You can only detach further even if he falls and prevent DD from going down with him. He's not to be relied upon, unless you want it to end in resistance and a fight.

Yeah, this stuff all sucks.