SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm sorry if I came off snarky, 545.

Nope, t'was me. My response, while well intentioned, did not contain nearly enough.

You are the great and powerful *Jrazz*. You have always been a voice of strength. Your wisdom in situations is quite astonishing at times. You *get it*, and are right on target over and over.

However, rarely have I seen you post with so much pain. Your expressions of it are subdued, almost as if wishing to spare *us* some of what you are going through. Reading between the lines though, you *get* even this situation.

The more I detach, the more I feel sorry for him that he constructs a false reality around himself that ultimately means the destruction of any meaningful relationship.

Here's where I'm saying you *get it*. Detachment in the sense of never trying to change him(cause it has to come from within) is showing you a future that is unpalatable at best.

I care about him. As a friend. As the father of my daughter. As someone who loves him.

when I am able to comfortably step outside for a moment I find I have a lot of compassion for the crap hand he was dealt at learning to deal with things.

I get it, you love him. You understand where he is coming from. It sucks, because if he cared enough to *deal* with his issues, your M could work. It's not happening. You *get* this also.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness?

No, not at the price that must be paid, not only by you either. Your child deserves/needs to have a healthy relationship demonstrated for her to be able to have her own healthy image of what a relationship should be. Again, you *get it*.

That doesn't mean I have to stay married to him

You're right and that's the *healthy* answer. It sucks. You can see the solution. It's right there, if only....

it does mean that I can take whatever route I feel works to try and give him a healthy place to land, if I can.

Does it? Why? I'm a KISA, gonna fix the problems of the world. That mind set has led me in some very painful directions. Why is it up to you to find a *soft* place for him to land? Which will he learn more from? You solving his problems, or him fixing his own shit? Which is more healthy?

There is a change in the wind here, I can feel it. There is a new sadness... I think mourning is creeping in, and I'm going to let it.

Again, you *get it*

there's getting it in general, and getting it enough to make an intelligent decision... and I'm not quite at the finish line there.

And that's where my apology sets in. (((JRazz))) I am very sorry you're here. I wish there was something anyone could do to help CRazz see the light. It's all on him. You *know* this. I wasn't supportive enough in my response. Sorry. Know that I/we are here for you whatever your choice.

T/J CRazz, strength to you also. T/J

A quick question for you: How are you with receiving empathy? How does that feel to you?

And this brings us to one of my most flagrant and worn personality issues.

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Case in point - I can't even really bring myself to read 545's response with an open mind. There are compliments in there and I just try to race through that part as quickly as I can move my eyes.

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.

And this brings us to one of my most flagrant and worn personality issues.

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Case in point - I can't even really bring myself to read 545's response with an open mind. There are compliments in there and I just try to race through that part as quickly as I can move my eyes.

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.

You have just described a very similar dynamic between HL and I.

Recently in an IC session I was having my counselor asked me if it was possible for me to love myself as much as I loved my dogs and for me to give myself as much as I give them. I sat there stunned, I had no answer to that, I couldn't fathom that. I could not answer her in the end.

Detachment in a relationship is hard. All I have to offer you is hugs while you work through this. I wish you wisdom as well. ((()))

TG's response made me think of something my IC said early on. It was a different situation but the question was the same. She asked: Can you imagine being with someone who gives you the same love back as you give to them? How wonderful would that be?

JRazz, here's the thing. I stand by what I said. Eliminate the compliment. Start with *However*. They are your words, just in a different light.

I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Nope, just a BS in a really shitty situation. Again I stand by what I(You) said.

Strength

I wish I had words/advice that would instantly fix this for you, Jrazz.

Since I don't, I'm sending you loads of hugs and strength. Hang in there, dearest.

((( Jrazz and crew )))

Sending you strength and clarity. Hang in there. Thinking of you.

You can't do it by yourself.

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.

I used to confess all the bad things about myself.

I had to, it made me positive that if you heard how bad I was you wouldn't, or couldn't love me.

I just wasn't worthy.

But, we are. We really are.

(((hugs)))

OH Honey, you are getting there, you truly are. At the end of the day you do see the logic of the situation, but have trouble accepting it.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness? That doesn't mean I have to stay married to him, but it does mean that I can take whatever route I feel works to try and give him a healthy place to land, if I can

To answer this: To a point. At some point you have to weigh the brokenness, and pain and harm it causes yourself, and your children. If it is something that will shape who you are, who your kids are, and you can see it leading to more brokenness then you HAVE To step away from it.

This shit is hard, and the thing I struggled with the most, was realizing that the one person in the world who was supposed to have my back didn't, and if I didn't put me first, no one else was going to. It was time to make me the priority. There is a reason that they tell you to put your oxygen mask on first when you fly. You are no good to others when you are passed out or dead. The same goes for your emotional well being. If you aren't healthy of mind and soul, then you can't be the best mom you can be. It is ok to put your needs first.

Listen it's not like you are asking for completely unreasonable things here, you are asking for the fair and just treatment that you would give any other person.

As far as being able to accept the empathy and compliments, that takes time. You are worthy, and the sooner you can accept that the happier you will be. We support you and empathize with you because of who you are, not because you are free of fault. You don't have to be perfect, and no one expects that. We care because we know Jrazz is a great person who is hurting and going through a tough time, and she deserves more. She just has to realize it, and take it for herself.

((((and strength))))

(((((((((more hugs))))))))

Analyst/Therapist? (Arrested Development anyone?

Come on, what is there not to love about you? Someone who still has this sense of humor during a tough time.

Sending hugs and strength for you.

It's the best/worst defense mechanism.

I'm glad you got the reference, Dixie. I didn't want to be the only person with that word bouncing around my brain!

oh Razzie. I don't even know what to say... Just have hugs (((Razzie)))

((((Jrazz))))

I'm sorry I missed this thread earlier, but I hope that some belated hugs and strength is better than none.......

I know what you mean about the lying. About avoidance. It's why I don't think there's anything left with my M. And it hurts and is so very difficult to deal with. Especially when you also suffer from depression.

Take care of yourself (and DD). Sending you more hugs, strength, love and peace.

((((Jrazz))))

I'm having some trouble with some aspects of the thought processes here. So much so that I cannot even read them fully and honestly because it's just so counter-intuitive to me. That's not to say that they are wrong. They're just troubling to me.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness?

Yes, it does. It's as simple as it sounds. I think the brick wall comes in the search for the person that we know/accept/expect is broken - BUT just not so much so that we cannot love them unconditionally. Really, isn't that why we are all here? Isn't that the same theme that plays out in almost any forum you are in? It doesn't just play out - one act, same characters. It plays out over and over again. A spouse, an AP, a new SO, a parent, a sibling, a co-worker...

And I'm cool with that because some people really are just so damn difficult. But we're totally missing the point when we think loving unconditionally has anything to do with the qualities of the other person. The ONLY brokenness that keeps us from achieving that is our own. The unconditional part is not in regards to any particular qualities of the other person. The reason we cannot achieve it is because that we continue to love from a perspective of self-protection...where it's less just giving and more like bartering. The unconditionally actually means, without conditions.

(As an aside, I'm personally coming to believe that often what we most need/lack in a relationship is a reflection of our own area of brokenness/inability to receive. It may not be that we're not getting it. It may be that we are unable to receive it. For that reason, I think TIKY's question is most important here.)

It drives me nuts when problems automatically suggest that we need to change our circumstances. It really makes me nuts when that's labeled as being "healthy". How many people do you know that have gone from the frying pan to the fire? You want me to sum up my two marriages as an example? 1) He may hit me but at least he doesn't run around. 2) He may run around but at least he doesn't hit me.

I don't know your exact situation, razzie. I believe in your ability to make the decision that's right for you. But I would like to counter some of the common thought/response that I see so much of the time with this simple idea: Sometimes what we MOST need to do is to stand right where we are. We need to because we're not done with what we need to learn,...we're not done with how this situation presents us the opportunity to grow.

Does there come a time to leave? Quite possibly. Quite possibly that time is even now. BUT I would say ONLY IF you are solidly moving TOWARD something and not simply moving AWAY from something. Not as in, "I deserve better. I want a man that truly loves me" blah, blah, blah. But as in, "I've grown all I can grow here."

I think we'd all (myself included) do better and could find much more peace, if we could just start seeing our relationships - our marriages, specifically - more in terms of opportunities (can I grow here?) and logistics (and is this a nice place to sit while I do that?) and less in terms of ideologies (marriage should be...) and emotions (I feel so...).

Can you grow here, Razz?

And is that growth in spite of it - or is that growth because of it?

IMHO, this is what you need to weigh out.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 1:24 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

((((((Jrazz))))))(((((((Crazz)))))) (((((((littlemissrazz)))))))

If this were your DDs situation, what would you want for her?

I wonder if it would help to have Crazz to answer it? I know it helped me when I asked XH the question?

Good luck, no matter what decisions you make - YOU WILL BE OK?

More hugs,

K

[This message edited by Kajem at 2:03 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

I asked that question because I have a theory that we subconsciously choose a partner who will force us to work through our issues, eventually. For us, I knew in the very beginning that Waywardson was intimacy-avoidant. He LITERALLY ran from me the first time we talked. It was confusing and I thought, "Okay, this guy just isn't that into me." and I went on about my life until we met again, THEN he was REALLY into me. I don't know of one healthy guy who ever caught my eye. Not one. The reason was because I, too, was intimacy-avoidant. When we were working through our stuff, a lightbulb came on for both of us and we finally knew EXACTLY how we ended up together.

I think that, if you walked out the door today, you'd find yourself with a very similar partner, in the future. You can't do Crazz's work for him, but you can do yours. This is also a bit scary because when one partner in a relationship puts in the work and grows- and the other doesn't- the relationship will eventually fall apart. But you can't let that stop you. You don't have to save the world, you don't have to save your M, all you have to do is save yourself by finding out why you are also intimacy-avoidant, how it started, and start looking for opportunities to take little risks, like being open to receiving empathy in this post.

If 5454's post is causing you look away, I think you should read it over and over again- even read it aloud. Start by reading it as if it were written about someone else and take note of how you feel, then transition into reading it as it was written and, again, take note of how you feel. Try to figure our WHY you feel that way- where is that coming from? WHY is it OK for someone else to receive empathy and not OK for you?

(((Jrazz)))

[This message edited by ThoughtIKnewYa at 2:11 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

I think we'd all (myself included) do better and could find much more peace, if we could just start seeing our relationships - our marriages, specifically - more in terms of opportunities (can I grow here?) and logistics (and is this a nice place to sit while I do that?) and less in terms of ideologies (marriage should be...) and emotions (I feel so...)

.

This is such a great place to start. Hope your day has been ok. ((Jrazz))

Great food for thought. I hope I can grow here, because I'm spending a LOT of time here.

I think that, if you walked out the door today, you'd find yourself with a very similar partner, in the future.

You know what's funny? I thought Crazz was completely different from my other long term, serious relationships. (The other TWO ) I trusted him more than anyone, and that was a big factor in why I married him. I actually had an ex who had some sort of panic when I started dating Crazz and made a bid for getting back together with me, and although I felt more compatible with him, I didn't trust him not to hurt me (cheat) so I shut that down.

In retrospect, all the guys I dated had the same cockiness, ego, and lack of empathy that I was mysteriously oblivious to.

Ironically, I had two really close male friends over the course of my life who wanted to take our relationship to the next level and I handled it like shit. The first one was a bff from high school. Gorgeous, kind, stupid-wealthy family (Google "Atherton, CA") and devoted to me. He ran our social circle, and when he wasn't available I had the pager and ran the show. We were pilot and copilot for some of the best years of my life, and when I went to college he didn't let distance stop him from "taking care" of me. Late night calls where I would laugh or cry about the people in the dorms. 3 hour drives to come just have dinner with me. It was the largest "duh" in my life that he had feelings, but I was so comfortable with not being committed to him... it was the "perfect" relationship, except for that I didn't SEE him. I didn't let him in past the last step. Well, one visit he appeared to be having a panic attack and finally blurted out that he was in love with me. I froze in horror, said some AWFUL things about never wanting to date him because I didn't want to lose him. He took me back to school and I lost him. That was it. We talked a few times, saw each over the holidays, and it dwindled until there was nothing left. My family hated me for this, and his was pretty sad too.

It's like, I have an easier time letting someone in who I know is going to hurt me - someone who is broken or selfish or naive to common social etiquette. (Did I mention Crazz fed HIMSELF the wedding cake. You should SEE the look on my face in the pictures.)

I had another close male friend later in college and it was a very similar situation. We were best friends and I felt safe. He was attractive, ambitious, and kind. One day he said, "My mom thinks we would be great together." and just stared at me, hopefully. For some reason this terrified me and I yelled at him and left. It's inexplicable except for in the context of my not ever feeling brave enough to set myself up for real happiness.

Thank you all for helping me think out loud about this. It's so helpful to be able to stand outside yourself when looking for why's and how's.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 10:05 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

(((jrazz)))

You and Crazz seem to have an ongoing issue with his seeming lack of empathy and his inability to "get" you. Like he is doing the things he was taught he was supposed to do as a husband, but is not feeling the "why" of why it is important.

You have mentioned that you both have FOO issues. You have mentioned that you are working on yours. But is he working on his? And if he is, is he making progress? Even baby steps? Or does he seem to be just as stunted in IC as he seems to be in your relationship?

And I ask this because I only read your perspective. When you post about your frustrations with him you usually do not post about his previous successes.

At some point you need to take a step back and evaluate where you are and where you want to be. And you need to realize that this may be as good as it gets with Crazz. Not that he is a bad person or that he is not willing to do the work, but that because of his FOO issues and personality that what he is giving now is the best he has to give. And if that is the case, you need to decide if that is something that you can live with. That does not mean that you do not love him, it just means that you recognize that you need more than he is able to give. Or perhaps you realize that you can live with what he is able to give because you do love him and would prefer a life with him, despite his brokenness, than a life without him.

I am not saying that him crossing a boundary and/or lying is acceptable. But rather, you see progress with him and believe he will learn from this and not hurt you again in the same way. Or that you accept that he may not learn from this and may hurt you again, but it is a hurt that you are willing to accept because of the love you share with him. (I don't think I am expressing this well -- I am not saying that you should accept being disrespected but I fear that is how I expressed it; I hope you understand what I am trying to convey...maybe I can articulate better in the morning).

Peace and love